Riot, Can I just ask for one thing. Could you include less cliffhangers in the lore?

GenoXx·Jul 17, 2017·35 votes·1,442 views

That Jinx and Vi cliff hanger killed me. Especially with a Zaun update and you have two iconic characters from there with there story still a mystery prolonged. Not even just about them, this is a universal problem throughout the new lore. I understand you want somethin to come back to, but you shouldn't keep milking story plots. I've found my self growing less and less eager about lore simply because i know the next place wont bring much closure about things fans wanted to see the most. I pray for the Ionian update telling about about Yasuo's killer so people can stop speculating Riven's the killer.

Thing's like these must have some completion, doesn't even have to have a finale. Just knowing who killed Yasuo's master or how Jinx knows VI is more than enough. You still have time to make a rising point and climax to these stories.

Please consider what's I am saying.

45 Comments

GreenLoreJul 17, 201720 votes

The thing is that they don't want to close storylines prematurely,simply because wrapping up a story just for the sake of wrapping it up can feel rushed.

I mean take the killer of the elder for example. Right now Riven is the only suspect that we have and this means that she either is the killer,which wouldn't really feel like a surprise,because she was the only suspect to begin with,or that they suddenly introduce a new character who is the killer,which would be lame because that chara would have come out of nowhere and a mystery is only fun if you have the chance to figure out the solution yourself.

This gets even worse if we consider the fact that the backgrounds of the characters can change during a retcon anyway. When the TF and Graves conflict resolved I kinda felt cheated,because as it turned out,they changed the circumstances of their conflict,which greatly affected the resolution at the end.

Though I agree that they could sometimes reveal a bit more to us.It did feel like a letdown that neither Jinxs,nor Vis story revealed anything about their relation.

Lady FacelessJul 17, 201712 votes

The problem is we actually get like almost none resolution anyway.

The retcon happened 3 years ago and we still have a lot of champion, who didn't get their update lore and other champion there Riot is not sure that to do with them (Ionia says hello). The only champion who gets any progress are usual the favorites anyway. I mean how much lore got Miss Fortune, Lux and Zed in the last three years? And don't get me wrong, I love all three, but this isn't fair to all other champions.

Especially since we also getting enough "he has a dark and mysterios past" revamps as well. We have no idea about the origins from Vi, Jinx, Dr. Mundo and Warwick. It is okay to have one, two champion with unkown origin, but this feels just incredible lazy, tbh.

The worst thing, if someone even gets a answer from a riotler it is usually "we can't tell you 'cause spoiler". I only think, we will never get any answers anyway, since we get so little story progress.

The facts that we got no Ionia update and will get no Noxus update doesn't make it any better. Not even Kayn gave us any proper world-building. I really believe Riot can do great story-telling if they want to, but with every missed opportunity I just get more frusted.

And if the possible Darkin lore we could maybe get this week is written like the Kayn one, we will get no real in-sight again.

KrabohodJul 17, 20171 votes

Absolutely agreed

KoKobotoJul 17, 20174 votes

Champion biographies shouldn't be used for world building. Just saying. Short stories for the champion could include them but the world around them should have impact and reason to be explained otherwise it just feels like tacked on nonsense. Lux short story introduced a few concepts that were very poorly executed like Noxian War Siege Machines or something, I can't even remember cause they did a terrible job and it served no purpose in the story.

Lady FacelessJul 17, 20173 votes

Short stories and color text currently give us the best in-sight for Runeterra, at least for the moment. I don't say they are doing a good job with it - actually, they are doing an awful job like this, we basically have a huge jigsaw puzzle and we have to search every part of it by ourselves. I agree with you, it is awful, but currently the best shot we got. That we need is an actually Glossar. A place, we have all collected information. Universe is the step in the right direction, but if I really wanna some information, I have better luck just trying to catch Sharjo and hope, he is allowed to tell something. The different between us lore nerds and the casual reader is, that we spent too much time on the boards and did catch the most important bits, while the most fans don't have the dedication to do so. This information should be reachable for all, not just for a small elite.

MushroomTip999Jul 17, 20171 votes

I thought Warwick was a scientist in zaun who collected bodies to experiment on but after messing up the recipe, which involved an incident with soraka, turned into a werewolf.

Lady FacelessJul 17, 20171 votes

That was his old lore. He has no ties with Soraka anymore and Soraka probably will have a connection to Mount Targon now.

For now, Warwick was an experiment by Singed, who turned him in this form. Warwick is unable to recall his past, but as far as we concerned, he wasn't a good person either.

Sources: Engineering the Nightmare (Singed color text) Warwick lore If They Run (Warwick color text)

SolarisCorvusJul 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I thought Warwick was a scientist in zaun who collected bodies to experiment on but after messing up the recipe, which involved an incident with soraka, turned into a werewolf.

Nah he got his lore retconned.

GreenLoreJul 17, 20174 votes

Overall I agree that we got a few too many mysterious backgrounds in the Zaun/Piltover lore and I agree that solving at least a few mysteries would be a good thing. I'm merely opposed to rushing things.

I mean from our perspective Yasuo has been searching for the killer for years now. But if we look at his actual storyline,it pretty much consists of him wandering around aimlessly,killing people who try to kill him and him training Taliyah a bit. If it was resolved now,then that would be a huge letdown,because there was barely any build up for a resolution,as Yasuo didn't even meet a single suspect on his quest and got so far only one clue.

Lady FacelessJul 17, 20173 votes

I'm merely opposed to rushing things.

This a point I can understand and I agree with. The problem is we are just getting so little progress and it takes Riot forever to give us actually content, that we can only loss in that case. I mean, you even said it yourself:

When the TF and Graves conflict resolved I kinda felt cheated,because as it turned out,they changed the circumstances of their conflict,which greatly affected the resolution at the end.

We will either get no resolution at all or in some way we will feel cheated about it. The real question int that case is that is less problematic.

I mean, Yorick has been already a meme than I started to play this game 2013 and we got his rework 3 1/2 years later. And the narrator team isn't much faster, to be honest.

I'm also opposed about rushing things. I wish I had the feeling we actually get some kind of progress, which we currently don't get. But since the Demacian update I only see missed opportunities and silence.

GreenLoreJul 17, 20175 votes

Well the thing with TF and Graves would have worked out better if we had gotten the new lores before the story came out. Same with Miss Fortune and Gangplank.

And progression is something that I'd also like to see more often,I have the feeling that a few stories are basically like filler,they happen,they end and nothing has really changed.

HalfTangibleJul 17, 20171 votes

Sooner or later, Yasuo will confront Riven.

Obviously, he can't just find Riven and BAM, story over, so Riven needs to either win the initial confrontation, or be strong enough to get away. It's also very unlikely that Riven is the actual killer, because if she was, she'd likely agree to die by Yasuo's hand and/or turn herself in.

In very broad strokes: What I'm thinking will happen is that when Yasuo decides Riven is the killer, he'll draw his blade and accuse her. They will fight for a bit, but be too evenly matched for either to win. Riven is the better fighter physically, but Yasuo's control of the wind is so complete that it evens the match-up (remember, Yasuo has mastered a WIND TECHNIQUE, not necessarily swordsmanship). Riven will tell Yasuo where her sword's power comes from, and that she wasn't the only Noxian soldier to be granted a weapon of this kind of power. Then she'll offer to go with him until he finds the killer of his elder. Then Riven and Yasuo will travel to Noxus to find the source of the runic magic in her blade, and eventually find the one who killed Yasuo's elder.

It's also probable (narratively) that they will meet before then and either hit it off or immediately dislike each other for all the wrong reasons.

...

Yes, I ship Riven and Yasuo, why do you ask?

Whyte LyonJul 17, 20172 votes

What about a recent example with the Darkin. Does OP really think the community that pretty much lost their collective minds creating fan theories and showing genuine interest in what were essentially a footnote in Aatrox lore, was it because their story was explained ages ago? Of course not. The only reason why every one was so damn eager to put forth their own opinions was due to the very thing Op is complaining about. Had Narrative not (unintentionally) left this loose end for soo damn long the larger community wouldn't have cared as much as they did with Rhaast's reveal.

So many people trying to convince everyone that the Darkin are the Horsemen or some such thing. Even if that's wrong, it shows a stronger dedication to characters who haven't even got lore yet.

TwitchInMyPantsJul 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Whyte Lyon,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=lNzPVx9v,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-07-17T11:02:17.696+0000)

What about a recent example with the Darkin. Does OP really think the community that pretty much lost their collective minds creating fan theories and showing genuine interest in what were essentially a footnote in Aatrox lore, was it because their story was explained ages ago? Of course not. The only reason why every one was so damn eager to put forth their own opinions was due to the very thing Op is complaining about. Had Narrative not (unintentionally) left this loose end for soo damn long the larger community wouldn't have cared as much as they did with Rhaast's reveal.

So many people trying to convince everyone that the Darkin are the Horsemen or some such thing.

Pretty sure stuff like this is exactly why Riot likes looseley defined lore. They're regularly making short stories and champions so there's opportunities to create new hints or tie up plot threads. Hell, after that Singed update I was talking with my friend last night and we were curious what was behind his mask and talking about his motives and I re-read the short story of him making warwick and noticed in their conflict he specifically mentioned his face being attacked. A feature of the character's model kept for years and we recently got an explanation of it in a newer rework. Its a small touch, but it makes the character feel more real.

Whyte LyonJul 17, 20171 votes

I've been surprised by just how attached players have come to the lore of certain League champs (particularly old outdated ones).

Most recently with the attention on Noxus but specifically Swain. My perspective on Swain was that his lore is flavorless and shallow but how does his character result in such an over all interest? Well it doesn't really, sure Riot had attempted to make a very intriguing character but because of his flat lore the community have taken it upon themselves to interpret Swain how ever way they want. That there is why so many stay with the lore, why so many continue to attach themselves to the lore. Because of loose ends going horribly underdeveloped. Im sure people would still like Swain's character if he did have developed lore but the connection or the passion wouldn't be as strong as it is if not for loose ends! And the interest is greatly more significant because of the hiatus.

Now I hate the old outdated lore for it's loose ends and lack of development, don't get me wrong. But this thread and the people agreeing with it are scared of investing their passion only for themselves to inevitably decide the wait isn't worth it anymore. And yeah that sucks but why not share more of their passion to other things? Perhaps only return to League's lore when the opportunity arises, if preoccupied with other interests it will make the wait for lore updates seem less strenuous.

TwitchInMyPantsJul 18, 20171 votes

IMO it's good to have loose ends, but you're right that he's underdeveloped. Most of his development is his ingame dialogue and his actions in the journal of justice. Its a story of a mysterious man who whilst limping around is able to keep up with trained warriors, giving basically 0 fucks about his pain, and his rise to power through shady dealings in Noxus. And the last we really heard from him other than other characters was way back in Season 2.

It's good they leave some mysetries for us, though its about time they develop him some. Maybe with some sort of Noxus event? We don't need to know his origins or his whole life story, but maybe the source of his magic or a short story with him making dealings with noxians, staging assassinations, protecting himself and controlling power and how he feels about all of it would give us a window into his personality. So far he's been very distant and disconnected as a character and Riot has an opportunity to tell something great. They surprised me when they took a wise man's approach with viktor after there being an augmentation cult mentioned in Camille's lore, so maybe Swain can surprise us too.

GenoXxJul 17, 20173 votes

You can finish so a story so another can start. How many years do we have to hold one story line just so it wont finish prematurely? I'm sorry but leaving everything to a cliffhanger doesn't seem like the best route to go for anything. Even in in DC and Marvel comics they give us closure to the most important things about two character's conflicts, and guess what? They have plenty of room to start fresh anew. I can't understand not wanting to have a new story for some of the characters of league. It feels like pre retcon again, we are given intros to them and never hear from them again.

KuroCaliberJul 17, 20171 votes

Yes well in comics, people can take a hero's mantle and characters naturally recover from death. Lol can't afford any of its characters to die. Look at what happened when Fortune looked gangplank on the lore, gp mains were furious. In many cliffhanger loses, someone is going to die, and that's one less character that will be seen as powerful by the community.

GenoXxJul 17, 20172 votes

No one has to die, just let the conflict resolve for one. It's so frustrating to wait for yrs only for them to not give us anything.

GreenLoreJul 17, 20173 votes

I'm not saying that I don't want new stories. I just don't want them to rush certain story arcs for the sake of closing said story arcs,because I have rather few good stories instead of many bad ones.

If you read a book and the book establishes the main story and some important mysteries in chapter 1,then you expect this stuff to get resolved by the end of the book,not by the end of chapter 2.

And thats the thing. A lot of champions stories are still in their early chapters and some of them don't even have that.

The slow progress is simply a result of having a team who has to work on over 100 stories at the same time and who hasn't even finished the introductions for every story.

GenoXxJul 17, 20173 votes

How many more years? I understand good stories but League of Legends is an online game, they can start dying out in a couple of yrs right when they decide to add a new part to some champions stories. They are in prologue. Into to what's their mystery, maybe a vague hint to someone else. Nothing important really arrive til they update and the main mystery is still vague.

I completely get you, but it's been more than enough time for them to at least resolve on champs story. You don't have to hold them all then start. That causes frustration which u can clearly see.

GreenLoreJul 17, 20173 votes

Well what is the other option? Should they just ignore all those champs who didn't even get a lore update in favor of continuing stories? Should they basically start with the resolution to a conflict that we weren't even aware of,because it wasn't in the old lore?

Both of these options come with their own negative sides.

Eternal791Jul 17, 20172 votes

Riot is likely waiting to finish updating all the lore before they try to close stories. Just think a couple years from now when they're (hopefully) done, and they can start cranking out story progression instead of updated lore.

GenoXxJul 17, 20175 votes

A couple more yrs of this. I will probably not care for legends anymore.

LoliKnightJul 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The thing is that they don't want to close storylines prematurely,simply because wrapping up a story just for the sake of wrapping it up can feel rushed.

I mean take the killer of the elder for example. Right now Riven is the only suspect that we have and this means that she either is the killer,which wouldn't really feel like a surprise,because she was the only suspect to begin with,or that they suddenly introduce a new character who is the killer,which would be lame because that chara would have come out of nowhere and a mystery is only fun if you have the chance to figure out the solution yourself.

This gets even worse if we consider the fact that the backgrounds of the characters can change during a retcon anyway. When the TF and Graves conflict resolved I kinda felt cheated,because as it turned out,they changed the circumstances of their conflict,which greatly affected the resolution at the end.

Though I agree that they could sometimes reveal a bit more to us.It did feel like a letdown that neither Jinxs,nor Vis story revealed anything about their relation.

But the reverse effect of cuckolding(so to speak) us for years is ok?

GreenLoreJul 17, 20174 votes

Well I myself think,that they go a bit too far with the whole "keeping things for later" thing.

I think that when they update the lore of a champ,they should try to progress the story a bit more,either in the color story or in the bio itself.

Nami is a good example of this. Her lore pretty much stayed the same,but her color story gave us some actual story progression for her. Meanwhile Rengar got a color story about him killing a random monster.

Overall I am saying that story resulotion is often times still too far away,but story progression is always an option.

Soraka is SO HOTJul 17, 20173 votes

Totally agree on the blatant cliff-hanger endings. Though suspense has a function, to be sure.

And yet certain champs ~~read Soraka~~ do not get their lore updated when other pertinent champs ~~read Warwick~~ get a VGU & Lore update, thereby making the former champs' lore obsolete and nonsensical.

Don't get me wrong - I love the new system for lore updates. It's just - our champions exist in a complete universe with one another. I firmly believe that canonical relationships should not be edited within a vacuum.

Okay, rant over. [slayer-jinx-catface]

KoKobotoJul 17, 20174 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/szdlgFjV-rito-more-stories-please

I agree. The thing is for a bunch of other literature even books. Book series sometimes have a year of downtime before the next in the series and that's still better than the rate of which Riot releases stories. The piltover update happened in January and I just feel sad that people who are interested in Piltover stories have not gotten anything for 7 months, myself included. It's also highly unlikely Piltover will have anything more for awhile because they gotta update every where else and there's still like 75% of ground to cover.

Shadow and Fortune and Burning Tides are even better examples of this issue. Bestests stories tbh but when did they come out? Summer and Autumn 2 YEARS AGO. The wait continues because and will probably continue for a really really long time. What of Targon as well, what of Diana's journey to Ionia, what of Shurima, HOW LONG HAS IT BEEEEN.

It's just really sad. I mean we don't even NEED stories about all the champions to be frank. Stories like City of Iron and Glass and Progress Day we're great on their own. Oh man another thing that is really depressing is that we wait for months or years to get the next part of a story and in the end it only amasses to around 2 hours of reading total...

GenoXxJul 17, 20173 votes

This is how i initially thought the universe page was for. Some episodic short story release, like you im very disappointed.

LeetriJul 17, 20171 votes

A year or 2 is nothing when it comes to books. Just look at A Song of Ice and Fire. Book 5 came out in 2011, book 6 still isn't done and there's no indication it's gonna be done this year either. The first book came out in 1996. 21 years and still no resolution for at least another 5+ years (because there will be one more book after this one). Many people are legit afraid George R R Martin will die before he's finished writing the series. And those books don't even have half as many main characters or stories to be told as League. In League there's 137 main characters alone, and then there's a ton of side characters as well such as the Ruined King that need stories. And then you could tell stories just about different locations while having nothing to do with the champions, such as the everyday life of a Chembaron or a fisherman venturing to Bilgewater for the first time. So many possibilities that no matter what they write it's gonna disappoint someone who thought "but I wanted to know about X instead".

There's really only 2 options (using Piltover as an example), have a year or two between Piltover story and Piltover story with other stories in between, or have no Piltover stories for 10+ years as they go through regions one by one to flesh them out and finish their stories. There's simply too much to tell to get it done in a "reasonable" time frame.

And throwing more writers on the issue doesn't fix it. They still need to coordinate and decide what is actually canon so they're not writing conflicting stories. Most books are written by a single person or two and only follow 10-20 main characters for a couple of chapters at a time, which is much easier to coordinate than 100 different writers across the globe writing 150+ completely different pieces that still have to connect and fit the overarching narrative and stay consistent with the established world while it's still being built.

Tl;dr, it takes a ton of time to write good stories, especially in a universe that's still being fleshed out and with as many varied characters and locations such as League (and also especially in a big company where it has to go through many people and not just a single writer).

KoKobotoJul 17, 20173 votes

The thing is no one is asking for a book. The comparison I make is that sometimes book series come out at a faster pace than stories in league and that is pretty sad when we've just been getting short stories for the most part. I am not asking for books lol I'm just giving an example of how slow league of legends is. The thing is we're gonna get updated in a year and it's only going to be a short story.

And then you could tell stories just about different locations while having nothing to do with the champions, such as the everyday life of a Chembaron or a fisherman venturing to Bilgewater for the first time. So many possibilities that no matter what they write it's gonna disappoint someone who thought "but I wanted to know about X instead".

Yep they could write a bunch of short stories and I would appreciate it but they don't. Also I don't think anyone was sad when they read Progress Day or City of Glass and Iron. Talking about people being sad about stories not being written is really pointless and like it's just so pointless. Who cares if people are sad that Yasuo didn't get a story, it's similar to how champions don't get skins, people don't get sad if their favourite champion doesn't get a skin (unless in those extreme cases like Yorick). The point is just building the world more.

I address most of everything you say in that link.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/szdlgFjV-rito-more-stories-please

KloqdqJul 17, 20171 votes

Ashe Lissandra Sejuani

One day....

ElikainJul 17, 20174 votes

No to less cliffhangers as this is what they call "story hooks". Story hooks are what gives them the ability to continue a story as League's universe is constantly evolving. Which means that, for example, Demacians (Lux, Garen, Galio, Shyvana, Jarvan, Xin, Vayne) are probably not last of them and if they wrapped all those stories up, that would really limit the storytelling for new characters that could end up as Demacians. It would be hard to shove them in anywhere so Riot would then be forced to either make up everything (and call it behind the scenes stuff - a character that was never mentioned anywhere but now exists) or make a new place for the character and forcefully expand on the League universe.

Cliffhangers are "unfinished" stories. "Story hooks" are stories that end with the specific idea that started them but leave characters open to experience something else in the future. Story hooks are good, cliffhangers are bad for storytelling in League.

GenoXxJul 17, 20173 votes

I dont get how the champions them selves can't have some fresh air from their current problems. Wouldn't you want to see Yasuo do something else around Runeterra other than run from assassins and find out his killer? He may never find him and the current rate things are going.

New stories can be made, there is so much potential and Riot doesnt tap into it and that makes me completely frustrated.

LeetriJul 17, 20172 votes

There's 137 champions and countless side characters and locations, you can't expect them to be able to write stories for all of them at a steady rate while still maintaining quality. If they started cranking out Yasuo stories you can bet the boards would go up in arms about Riot playing favourites and only giving Yasuo all the stories while neglecting the rest of the roster.

ElikainJul 17, 20171 votes

Yasuo has his piece in Taliyah's lore. He was her mentor as she needed to go away from her homeland (Shurima) to tame her powers and learn how to use them as she feared that she would hurt her people if they were left unchecked.

Raven RedeemedJul 17, 20174 votes

At least don't have cliff hangers if you do not intend to follow up anytime soon.

KloqdqJul 17, 20172 votes

I would just like to see some progression to the events of the world. Way too many mysteries that are not progressing to anything at the moment. It's why I wish we had stuff like the journey of justice still or something akin to the new lore with the Vast people. It's entries make it seem like the world is moving forward, not stopping in time as we wait for these stories to end.

GenoXxJul 17, 20172 votes

Tbh, it's all I'm asking for. All the lore upfates and we get very little lore progression, save Shurima and Bilgewater

KloqdqJul 17, 20171 votes

Even then they all just ended up dead in their tracks and we haven't gotten a lick of information on them. I want progression over time so I get a variety of stories over time rather than just "info dumps" in one go all the time.

PsyrixJul 17, 20171 votes

The reason there are cliffhangers is so that there is never a definite resolution to the conflict, we can imagine it goes either way. Therefore allows for a complexity a complete ending wont be able to do (especially considering this is a game). The base lores will likely not give a definitive ending as most champs have a quest to fulfil kind of theme. There are going to be short stories tho advancing the quests and riot has hinted that they will continue to pump out short stories

Lintu PuckJul 18, 20171 votes

we don't see ends because we are seeing characters in the middle of their stories. the character closest to their story's end lore wise at the moment and made to be as such is Ivern. What we see in the happy tree man as he struts around the rift is a man-tree just enjoying what he has left as he helps all creatures around him and lives peacefully until he finally remains rooted in place. all of the other near 200 characters are still in the middle of whatever story their lives have.

Chromatic EagleJul 18, 20171 votes

Their relationship hasn't been defined because it's not the focus of their characters, compared to TF and Graves. If we ever got a Burning Tides version of Zaun, I imagine that their relationship will be expanded upon.