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[LORE DISCUSSION] The Black Rose

ModCaptainMårvelous·10/3/2014, 8:06:41 PM·12 votes·8,843 views

Lore Discussion Omni-Post

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Happy Friday everyone and welcome back to Lore Discussion! So this week's topic was a pretty close one with over 100 votes and several neck-and-neck topics. By a mere three votes, this week's topic won out. So today, we'll be diving into the trecherous and deceitful world of Noxus to ask about the organization who's name is whispered in even the highest ranking households of the city...

http://i.imgur.com/V1OXYZ8.jpg?1 #The Black Rose

http://i.imgur.com/FzfhqyF.jpg #What is the Black Rose?

The Black Rose is an organization that has it's ties back before many of the cities we know today were even villages on the outskirts of an ancient Runeterra. Not much is known for a solid history, but it's clear we have very few key facts to cling onto:

  • The Black Rose has it's ties to the Noxus hierarchy and as such, Noxus itself.
  • Many of the Black Rose and it's allies are versed in magic.
  • The key goals are unknown, but it's clear that the Black Rose wants to establish itself as the puppetmaster behind the scenes.

In the original lore (Pre-retcon), the Black Rose waited until the League of Legends (Institute of War) was created and had firm, cemented power in it's wake before sending the esteemed LeBlanc to it's doorstep. Apparently they were waiting for a global authority to emerge before showing themselves and making their presence..."known". Still, the goals in the new lore are not clear outside of the ties they have with the Noxus hierarchy.

http://i.imgur.com/25GOZA3.png #The Organization of the Black Rose

Thanks to the "Reborn" teaser, we gathered some key facts about the actual organization of the Black Rose. Mainly, the fact that there are (at least) three key members among them.

  • Thorn- Thorn references the base of the petal, where there are thorns (Shocker). My personal theory is that Thorn represents the physical worker of the Black Rose. He or She is the one who partakes in assassination missions or otherwise murder, assault or other things of a physical nature. He/She is the one who is primarily the cause of stabbings and murderings that go unanswered.

  • Petal- Again, more flower symbolism (In the Black Rose? Shocking again!), the Petal strikes me as the "beauty" of the Black Rose. Perhaps a beautiful female or a handsome man, the Petal is the person who whispers sweet poison in the ears of the Black Roses' manipulatee. Through favors of the romantic or the sexual, the Petal twists the words of the Black Rose into honey and makes their will known through more subtle means.

  • LeBlanc- Finally, the "Face" of the Black Rose, LeBlanc is the leader and overall matron of the entire organization. There are some more things to ask about LeBlanc, but we'll wait until the next section.

So of those roles, are any still around? Well, I have my theories. For one thing, while we don't see the petal/thorn show up in later examples, I'd hazard a guess that the lore might shift. I, for one, could see Cassiopeia have the role of the "Petal", as she is (well, "was") a beautiful consort who wove her words with the venom that she now uses to stab people in the face with. For "Thorn", I'm still a little up in the air about it. Normal signs point to Talon being a possible suspect thanks to his stab-happy dagger flinging ways, but it's possible that Katarina or even her father could have ties. Heck, I could be wrong and NONE of these people are even remotely with the Rose.

http://i.imgur.com/qKJQCOS.jpg?1 #LeBlanc

Now, LeBlanc is an interesting figure for a few reasons. For one, she is present in the Reborn saga throughout the ages. From Sion's death to imprisonment to rebirth, LeBlanc is center stage. Following this, LeBlanc is both mentally sound and more than magically capable. She's able to hold her own in these League matches and can take a punch just as well as any other magus. (Not that great but bear with me).

So the question is: Is LeBlanc a title passed down through the Rose or is LeBlanc somewhat immortal?

Now, the title being passed down is the more likely of the two. LeBlanc is not a person but an ideal of the Black Rose. LeBlanc can be male, female, anything in between. It also plays into the style of play LeBlanc has in League. She is deceptive, tricky, impossible to pin down and always fooling you. This right here leads to the idea that whatever you think of LeBlanc is entirely false. Oh, she's the leader? Naw, she's just a magus. Oh, she's really old? Nope, only sixteen. So on and so on.

However, looking at the idea of Immortality...could it be possible? For one thing, LeBlanc lists Elise as a friend on the champion page, implying that they're somehow buddies. Now, this could just be the likeminded aspect of two manipulative leaders, but what if it's more than that? What if LeBlanc is tainted by the magic of the shadow isles and has been alive through means that are quite unholy? Following this train of thought, it'd also explain the power of Sion's resurrection: Shadow Isles magic. Further digging into this, LeBlanc's appearance is hinted at changing quite a bit. As previous hinted that she changed to resemble Jarvan IV, who is to say LeBlanc isn't really thousands of years old and a hideous hag, magic making her the devious and beautiful woman she appears to be?

Perhaps this is exactly what LeBlanc wants? Wild theories and accusations flying around, the truth hinted at but always behind a fog or veil to keep everyone guessing and wondering just who or what she is? If that's the case, amazingly well done. A hat must be tipped to the mistress of manipulation.

With all this said and done, what do you think? Is the Black Rose still strong and alive in Runeterra? Perhaps it's just LeBlanc left after hundreds of years? Maybe there's some counter group they hope to thwart or defeat? Either way, be sure to discuss, keep it civil and remember to vote for next week's topic!

41 Comments

WestTiger10/4/2014, 9:14:16 AM5 votes

Well, Swain used to be a Black Rose member, he still wears the club ring according to LeBlanc's League Judgement back in the d : Shippiest League Judgement ever btw

I wonder if it's still canon or not, but that's probably concerning if Swain gets a VU/remake or whatever and they change up his lore, this is probably the least important bit of his backstory all thing's considered. But assuming this is still canon, since LeBlanc's story seems to be fairly stabilized.

  1. Does Swain know Emilia LeBlanc or whoever/whatever personifies the Matron of the Black Rose? There's LeBlanc prior to becoming Matron, and the LeBlanc that completes the rite to become the Matron. Swain could have known either of these two women, or both. Maybe it doesn't matter but it would help gauge a bit of the age of LeBlanc, at least in relation to the coup in Noxus (that should have been a couple of centuries ago but they refer to it like it happened pretty recently by how they refer to DuCouteau. Confusing).

  2. Everything about Swain's past in the Black Rose. What was his rank, what was his duty, why did he leave, was it by choice or was he forced to, but he kept the ring so is he still loyal to the Black Rose, is he a free agent, did he ever communicate to the other Black Rose members besides LeBlanc etc.

  3. Journal of Justice Vol 1 Issue 24 featured a reader's letter to LeBlanc that was specifically made to look fake so we would try to decode it.

The decoded message talks about Vayne, but there's some interesting things to note in the base letter. Notably, LeBlanc replied to this person as though he/she was part of the Black Rose. So we can assume that this is an informant, possibly one of the Black Rose members, who requires a public forum like this to communicate to LeBlanc for some reason. Notice how they talk about Swain: "Surely you Can not sUspect those Rumors of bIg Old Ugly ravenS Making fIne Garden protectors, tHey likely spliT the Soon as the winds raisE there wings highEr"

So what I take from that is that not all the Black Rose is confident that Swain would actually help them, and that the moment he gets enough power, he will leave them for dead - and it's a little telling from the Reborn lead-up, that this situation could actually be happening. Swain's Grand General, short of ruling Runeterra, this was his biggest goal. LeBlanc mentions that they apparently haven't met for "quite some time", presumably after the last JoJ, and Swain simply says that she/the Black Rose "has his favor" and that's as much as she/they will get.

Although it's a written conversation, you lose a lot of nuances. There are ways to say those same lines and Swain won't sound as cold/distant, so who knows. I mean this is a contrast to back when Swain was still rising in the ranks, and during a gala for his appointment to High Command (JoJ Vol1 Issue 11), he had LeBlanc as his date:

Perhaps just as curious as the circumstances of his promotion was Swain's choice of companionship for the evening, which caused quite a stir at the proceedings. On his arm all night was none other than the infamous (and notoriously reclusive) LeBlancSquare.png Emilia LeBlanc, who had not appeared in public for decades.

So is Swain distancing himself now since he doesn't need LeBlanc's help anymore? Again, hard to tell with just a written conversation with no explanation of how lines are being said.

Levyathyn10/4/2014, 1:06:20 AM3 votes

I love the Black Rose lore, and in tying with the disappearance of General DuCuteau, I think they may have had something to do with it. But then, I have other theories about that. For another time. However, it has been mentioned in the old lore that LeBlanc is just a face that Evaine took up, a role and a name and an illusionary look that completes her as the head of the Black Rose. And if I remember her entry into the League, and its lore, at all correctly, I remember a crowd of people watching as this happened. This would mean the mantle is like that of the Dread Pirate Roberts, and is passed down to worthy successors, one after the other, who presumably take on a different face each time, though it wouldn't surprise me to learn the LeBlanc face always remains the same.

Katarina is die hard to her duty, but Talon and Cassiopeia had other concerns. Talon was only invested in the General himself, through respect, and this could mean that earning this respect would make the Black Rose his ally and perhaps give him his new home--unless the Rose was indeed involved with General DuCuteau's disappearance. On the other hand, Cass has been shown to be manipulative, loyal, and a bit ambitious, far more than the rest of her more traditional family. Just look at the Shurima event for proof. I could see her being a powerful ally to the Black Rose, at least as far as it would serve her to be so.

Valaran Nara10/3/2014, 8:50:32 PM3 votes

I would like to assume that Vlad could possibly be Thorn.

Why? Well, you mentioned how Elise is friends with LeBlanc right?

Well, here's the thing. Vladimir is both friends with Swain AND Elise. Because of Vlad's lore (and yes, there's always the retcon) he learned how to manipulate blood to kill people, and he practiced this on a random passersby or two. Who is to say that he doesn't work for the Black Rose and has been around for a VERY long time.

It is blood magic. If we go based on "vampiric" magiks and whatnot, it is often used to help defy the process of aging. While it doesn't technically make one immortal (or maybe it can) it is suppose to help one keep a youthful appearance. Maybe Vladimir is older than what most believe. Elise is immortal. LeBlanc is a title to get passed down to keep the appearance of immortality.

Why can't Vlad use his magic for eternal youth?

But, since he's Swain's friend, there's also the possibility that he only helped in the ressurection purely as a favor.

Solideus10/4/2014, 9:36:24 AM2 votes

The Black Rose, if Vladimir and Elise are involved, seem to have a lot to do with the pursuit of immortality.

It would also not surprise me if they have a connection to the Magelords (from Aatrox's bio) whom they have some similarities to thematically. Morgana, whom according to the official site now belongs to the Noxus faction, might be moved to the Black Rose family. If Morgana's new bio is connected to the Darkin as well these relations would go full circle; its easy to imagine what this would mean for the Black Rose's history.

Osocoldd10/3/2014, 9:53:55 PM2 votes

Them and the ninjas need more story especially with their popularity streaks.

SecretLore10/3/2014, 11:29:57 PM2 votes

About Thorn and petal we need to ask us too if they are immortal or simply code names that got passed down?

If they are really the same person,then I'd say that Elise &Vladimir are the most likely candidates. Swain couldn't be it,because he didn't know about Sion.And other noxians are definetly not immortal.

I think that Talon &Cassiopeia are rather unlikely to have a big connection to the black rose,it has been heavily implied that general ducouteau is an enemy of the black rose,but cass and talon are allies of ducouteau(he is cassios father and talons mentor).

WestTiger10/4/2014, 4:45:44 PM1 votes

FYI, just a little thing I remembered with my memory of obscure LoL trivia.

Did you know that Annie's parents were ex-Noxian, and leaders of the Grey Order - a group comprised of magic users who possibly had ties to the old Noxian aristocracy? They then left Noxus in a mass exodus as the military coup was happening and I'm guessing they would have been slaughtered. They escaped, and had Annie out there in their warlock and witches commune.

Black Rose, Grey Order, we're just missing the 'White' now...

(although it's highly likely Annie's backstory is just going to remove that bit, it's really not all that important and the Grey Order is never mentioned anywhere else)

PokladnicaZla10/4/2014, 6:56:00 PM1 votes

Another great discussion.

About the pole:Wasnt Katas and Cass father killed?

Taul Temps10/5/2014, 10:37:54 PM1 votes

GODDAMNIT! Where is the discussion about the lunari? I want it so bad! A freaking genocide by the solari? Were they cooperating before it happenned? Did the solari betray the lunari? I wanna see a discussion!

dialMARK4acti0n10/3/2014, 9:33:38 PM1 votes

I really like your discussions! Keep it up!

Crosses fingers and hopes Darkin is the next week's topic

Rew71110/3/2014, 11:01:10 PM1 votes

The more we see of this Black Rose the more we may see a new champion come out of this. Maybe this time, a Rogue?

GenoXx10/4/2014, 4:13:00 AM1 votes

In her judement, It was revealed that LeBlanc is just the title of the matron of the black Rose. Evaine was given the staff by the previous LeBlanc. Who, when she gave the staff away, showed that she was really old in fact. So no, LeBlanc is not immortal, The name is.

Moonshade10/4/2014, 6:58:10 AM1 votes

LeBlanc is a magical illusion that is projected over the body of whomever holds the title at the time, the illusion has a constant appearance so that the leader of the rose appears as though she lives forever, and the magic that allows this resides within the hairpiece of the base Leblanc skin (read the League Judgement for LeBlanc found on the wiki, the judgement also implies that some of the knowledge from previous LeBlancs is retained in the broach on her head, allowing them to essentially have hundreds of lifetimes to plan for any and every eventuality). As for whom Thorn and Petal are, I believe that the DeCourteau sisters are very likely to be Thorn (Katarina) and Petal was likely Cassiopea prior to her transformation, there is likely a replacement now to hold the position. I also believe that general DeCourteau was once a Thorn (maybe still is) for the Rose as at the end of LeBlanc's league judgement he comes to visit her and though she reacts with hostility, Swain does not implying he may have turned him (one last act as a Petal before resigning) I also get hints from the Judgement that Swain was once a petal prior to his military coup and now he works with the Rose to hold his position.

cshakes10/4/2014, 1:08:48 PM1 votes

According to her League Judgement, LeBlanc is a title. The physical appearance is caused by the brooch in her hair, and the brooch is worn by the Matron of the Black Rose.

Personally, I think that Thorn and Petal are probably from the era of the previous LeBlanc. Then again, we don't know how old our Evaine really is. In her 40s, perhaps? (Having ascended to LeBlanc in her 20s due to her talents, in my headcanon.)

As for the Elise/LeBlanc tie, well, obviously they might have befriended each other in the Institute. Perhaps Elise is a member of the Black Rose, feeding people to Vilemaw to strengthen it so the Black Rose can use it in their plots? Or a member who's bringing sacrifices to Vilemaw as a side project? ("Spider powers in exchange for bringing in sacrifices? Sure!")