Which large-scale rework was your favorite "CHAMPION" wise?

ModCaptainMårvelous·Aug 28, 2017·17 votes·7,037 views

Just curious to see what everyone thinks. You can add comments if you want to talk about your most-and-or-least favorite reworks and why they either struck a cord or didn't work for you. Only counting large-scale for the sake of having the most change.

EDIT: Guys, this is on SAS because I'm interested in your thoughts on the lore and story. Kits are important but you can enjoy the kit but hate the character. (or vice versa)

89 Comments

Seba7290Aug 28, 20176 votes

I personally really liked Taric s rework. He still has a heal a shield and a stun yet they also made his kit a lot more intuitive and fun. They also nailed him thematically and lore-wise, Scrapping the whole other dimension bullshit like with nasus and renekton while keeping his charm intact. I do kinda miss his old bob Ross voice though (The new VO is really good don't get me wrong)

RiotReav3Aug 30, 20175 votes

You forgot Gangplank Tristana & Fiora

LostFr0stAug 30, 20171 votes

Does Ashe count too or was her update too small?

RiotReav3Aug 30, 20174 votes

I would put Ashe in the same camp as Shen, in that is was more of a gameplay update with some small visual updates.

World EnderAug 31, 20172 votes

Hey Reav3, sorry for off topic, but I heard from Meddler that Aatrox's update ran into some roadblocks and the team had to start back on ideation again.

Not expecting any kind of explanation or discussion on what problems they ran into, etc right now, but I'd definitely like to hear more about that in your next State of Champion Update post.

Sincerely, an Aatrox main

RiotReav3Aug 31, 20174 votes

Yup, I will be talking a bit about the current state of Aatrox in my next champion Roadmap. We are still working on him, but we are still in very early ideation.

SpideraxeAug 31, 20172 votes

Do you think you'll announce any new gameplay updates as well?

RiotReav3Aug 31, 20173 votes

I will be talking a little about the next new champion, a bit more detail on Swain as well as who we end up choosing for the next VGU after Swain.

As for small gameplay updates like Rek'Sai/Xin Zhao, it will depend on what we have going on by the time the blog comes out. Live Gameplay has a couple smaller projects in development, if it looks like they have a solid direction for one of them then I will include that as well.

FlemmanAug 31, 20171 votes

cross finger for volibear to be the one chosen as the current version doesn't fit in the game and in the lore (and tbhy as long as the healing and/or flip the table is kept, any vgu will still give the old volibear vibes)

LeyinAug 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I will be talking a little about the next new champion, a bit more detail on Swain as well as who we end up choosing for the next VGU after Swain.

As for small gameplay updates like Rek'Sai/Xin Zhao, it will depend on what we have going on by the time the blog comes out. Live Gameplay has a couple smaller projects in development, if it looks like they have a solid direction for one of them then I will include that as well.

so list of content:

-new champ for December

mini reworks like LeBlanc/Azit/Xin -the next VGU
update on Atrox
details on Swain

What will happen when the Ornn team start a VGU ,would we get 2 announcments for VGUs?

RiotReav3Aug 31, 20172 votes

The Ornn team is not currently working on a VGU, they are currently in the very early stages of a new champion for next year.

LeyinSep 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The Ornn team is not currently working on a VGU, they are currently in the very early stages of a new champion for next year.

ok ty, but you will reveal all Vgus when you switch to 5 champ teams instead of just 2 Vgu and 3 new champion teams.

RiotReav3Sep 1, 20172 votes

We already have made that switch. There is one new champion team that is currently in production on a new champion, but is also in early ideation for a VGU already. The Ornn team however is currently working on the early stages of another new champion.

EROTIC RAID BOSSSep 1, 20173 votes

I noticed previously our new champions have had, starting with Camille or kled, voicelines that play automatically when attacking, killing, spawning in game vs other specific champions. reworks however have been kinda stuck in the old taunt model, where you only get the character interactions by using the taunt key, up until urgot who has lines for killing people with his ult etc.

are you guys going to be using the new model going forward for vgus as well as new champs? not to mention legendary skins

ever thought about adding lines for adcs towards their supports and vice versa? like a much smaller scale version of what xayah and rakan do?

LeyinSep 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

We already have made that switch. There is one new champion team that is currently in production on a new champion, but is also in early ideation for a VGU already. The Ornn team however is currently working on the early stages of another new champion.

just a question becasur i am very interested in the timeline and the process of your team. It should be the team that worked on Kayn and will bring the first champion next year that will get the"5th" VGU for 2018. So we can expect 2 in early of 2018 like Ww and Galio probaly around January and March and the three others around July-September like this year Ugot,Ornn and Evelynn. Just quick thoughts, but kinda true? ^^

SpideraxeAug 31, 20171 votes

Alright thanks, and who are you most excited for Total War 2

RiotReav3Aug 31, 20172 votes

Skaven are my favorite WHFB race, so yeah.

RengoooAug 31, 20173 votes

Do you mind if I ask when can we roughly expect this next roadmap to come out? I assume it would be after Eve's update? Looking forward to learning who's up next for a vgu! (after swain).

RiotReav3Aug 31, 20172 votes

Yeah it should be out sometime shortly after Evelynn's release

BrutusnessAug 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah it should be out sometime shortly after Evelynn's release

Do you know if there's a reasonable time to expect Swain on the PBE? Would early 2018 be a safe guess?

MonotachiAug 31, 20171 votes

VGUs take about 9 months from start of announcement, so yes, early 2018 would be a good range (March onwards).

Moonboy65Sep 1, 20171 votes

what about the MF splashes?

UniJuanTenobiSep 4, 20171 votes

Can you give us a time or patch estimate for Evelynn's rework?

Rito StaffSep 1, 20171 votes

cough squishy self sustain tank/fighter, should survive sustained damage given he can heal, (in which case he should be skill-gated by how much one accomplishes self-healing) needs tenacity, 0 damage steroids (keep his weak damage) -- niche -> being a proxy/sponge for everyone else. "focus me now that you have 5 of you and not after teamfight is over when there'll be less CC and damage to take me down" cough

redfeenixAug 31, 20172 votes

Hey friend,

Yup its me again, asking you to put some work into Shen.

A trend I noticed lately is that champions are becoming very complicated with many abilities and interactions.

When I started out in Season 2, my favourite champions were GP and Shen. They were very simple to play, and had some ranged harass to survive tough lanes. For me this is my favourite "class" in any RPG - a melee fighter with some limited range options.

With your changes, a long time ago, both these champions (in my opinion) became overly complicated with their mechanics. For example - GP's barrell minigame is VERY unfun for me, so now I dont enjoy playing gangplank as much as I used to. Another bad example is Ryze.... I need to spend 5 minutes reading his skills and passive to understand how they interact with each other.

Champions should feel intuitive to play.... the simplest designs are often the best. Overloading a champion's kit feels clunky and takes away from their identity.

Any thoughts on having updates simplifying and unifying champion skillsets, instead of making them so overly complicated?

For Shen, just remove his spirit dog leash and make him a true warrior ninja, a master of speed and strength:

P- Warrior momentum: Each basic attack reduces all of Shen's cooldowns by 0.5s Q- Crescent slash: Strike with both swords in an arc. Enemies at the center of the arc are hit by both swords and take double dmg. W- Shift into a defensive stance, blocking all incomming basic attacks with his blades in a small area. (Same effect, but lorewise he uses his blades really quick instead of magic or wte he does atm) E- Keep as is R- Keep as is but increase cooldown to account for passive

His passive will encourage splitpushing to reduce his ult's cooldown. Also we can have different Shen builds now, as bruiser / attack speed Shen might be a viable option again. I hate seeing champions with only 1 type of build.

As long as Shen is being mistreated I will always call you out for your mistake. Please give him some love.

AnataBakkaAug 31, 20171 votes

Ashe is still bugged

Zero DriveAug 28, 20174 votes

Warwick. Everything I'd ever wanted in a jungler. He's my most played champ on half of my accounts. Not to mention the first 3 seconds of his dance... [slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

MonotachiAug 28, 20174 votes

Warwick - I believe he's the first modernisation type VGU so far but the best done so far. It kept the balance between what mains loved about him while making his kit refreshed to modern standards for newer players. Everything about him is done well. This should be the standard for other sorts of modernisation type VGUs later on. I think Eve is the next modernisation VGU as well. Hopely it turns out well for her.

RiotReav3Aug 30, 20172 votes

He wasn't the first. The Gangplank and Tristana VGUs were also moderizations

MonotachiAug 31, 20172 votes

I think that's the thing. Just like the OP, I knew both got reworked but it didn't feel really large-scale? WW just jumps to mind when it comes to a modernisation type VGU that felt large scaled enough to notice but one that worked out very well.

WarWorkAug 31, 20174 votes

I think the reason Galio didt get more votes, is because while he is a fun character, he feels more of a new champ that a rework. 180 on the personality, completely different playstyle and the removal of the most fun thing from the pre rework kit (ult flash)

HelmightAug 30, 20174 votes

I've loved all of the VGUs so far, but I think Taric's has been the best. Most of the other VGUs were so simple - they either reworked the champ to fit their preexisting theme better (Sion, Warwick, Yorick) or slightly shifted the champion to align with a more resonant theme (Poppy, Galio).

Taric meanwhile was the product of taking a champion who had so many dissonant views about who and what he truly was and somehow meshing them all together into a cohesive whole that felt perfectly Taric. New Taric has gems, a fondness for beauty, martial prowess, and even the ambiguous orientation that everyone wanted, while also finding a place for him in the new Runeterra. It was incredibly well done - even Taric's new kit feels similar to his old one.

For me, the difficulty of reworking Taric combined with its stunning success is what makes him stand out among the others.

AbiwonKenabiAug 30, 20174 votes

If we're talking lore, I hate what they did to Galio. They took this melancholy, sage protector and turned him into yet another overly excited, hyperactive fighter.

Warwick is a great example of updating the lore (and the kit for that matter) but retaining a lot of the basic elements we like about Warwick. He's still a blood-thirsty wolf man, he used to be human but was changed thanks to Singed's chemicals, and his beast form is some form of commentary on "now he looks like the beast he is". They did add a new element to this, that WW struggles against his base instincts to hunt and tries (and usually fails) to be a good person, something he struggled with even before he became a wolf man. It's an expansion of WW's character, a natural extension rather than scrap and renew, which felt like the approach with Galio and Yorick.

morris1Aug 28, 20173 votes

Yorick's is my favorite. The rework didn't really preserve much of the original champion, but it got everything from lore to visuals to gameplay perfectly so I don't even mind it (also his dialogue with the ult is amazing).

I don't really like Poppy's as much though. To summarize, they turned her from an assassin / diver to a pure tank (that can nonetheless go full AD, but her lack of range makes it very difficult later in the game). Also, I don't really understand why they had to make her character so oblivious to everything. ~~I also miss her absolutely broken ult.~~

HalfTangibleAug 30, 20173 votes

If we're talking purely lore-wise, it has to be either Galio or Poppy. I feel Poppy is the more likable character, but she's also pretty superfluous atm. She just exists. Galio is such a massive centerpiece of Demacia's new lore and such a cool part of it* that I have to give it to him.

*It's Demacia's statue of liberty, but it also punches things. What's not to love?

That said, I love all of the lore for the listed reworks. Riot does a pretty fantastic job when it comes to lore updates.

Forhonor321Aug 30, 20173 votes

Oh god... my worst weakness...choices! Well let's see:

Sion really came through with getting an identity from a Schwarzenegger parody to a an actual cool undead champ. Outside of that though he still needs a good story of his life. Gameplay wise his abilities are good. Q is telegraphed but rewarding when you get the small knockup, even more at full, E is good W is nice and ult is fun (even if hard to control).

Poppy was vastly improved! still kept her iconic dash but added some new things for an interesting tank. Characterwise she's ok in my book.

Taric I'm kinda mixed on. On the one hand, he's fun and really good late game. On the other, current meta is all about fast games so he doesn't do jack in this. I think his kit is OK at least for the enchanter feel but I don't get that feel of building a bunch of armor like old Taric did, which I feel some are upset over. Characterwise I don't really like him but I don't despise him. I just don't find him that interesting (targon's champs outside of Sol and Diana are just bland to me)

Yorick FUCK YES! One of the best reworks I've seen and played! Hits the feel of minion master without making it complex, great splitpusher, design is good, and I actually like playing him. Lorewise I haven't read up on, but what I have read is pretty good. He's one of the few champs that before I never would of touched ever but now is one of my favorites.

Galio Oh...this guy. Ok gameplay I feel was vastly cleaned up from just anti-mage mage to anti-mage tank, which I liked a lot more, but characterwise and many people will also say this, he got destroyed/replaced. He went from a wise sorrowful sentry to a blubbering jock of a statue. I really didn't like that change.

Ryze Ryze I really can't comment too much on. His backstory now is ok i guess but I don't find interest in it and gameplay is just... well, insert ryze needs another rework joke here. I just don't find this guy to be balanceable as he is, even after what feels like his 5 rework even though it's his 3rd(?). He just has a lot of power in his kit and either he's really strong or needs nerf and really weak. At this point I'm fairly certain that he's just a balance nightmare unless they go all out and completely change thing in his kit, which in turn would destroy the character a bit but that's the only thing I see working for him in the future.

Warwick since his rework he's only been touched up on for bugs. That to me tells me that his rework is fairly good if he doesn't need any buffs or nerfs after a rework release. In fact this might be the only champ to have that done so far. Lorewise I like the change. The whole man hunter bounty hunter theme really wasn't that great in his old lore, so changing it to a horror movie stalking manmade werewolf on the streets was a nice change.

Urgot Like Yorick, he's one of those champs that I never would touch before their rework but now I love them. His shotgun knees are very fun for me to use. Q is a little lack luster, mostly I use it for waveclear, E is ok for getting the opposite legs, W is nice and ult is so satisfying when you drag them in. Lorewise I love it. Having the whole survive pain for true strength is a good motive for a character like this.

On a whole, if I have to choose its really close but it comes down to Warwick and Sion . WW was just teh perfect example of a modernization of a champ and Sion is just an old favorite of mine that has really rewarding abilities to land either fully charged Q or ult.

Worst rework is Ryze because reasons up above and close to that is Galio because like I said I hate his character now.

ZyraniumAug 28, 20172 votes

Evelynn

FasmodeyAug 28, 20172 votes

If she is well done, I can become an Evelynn main, as primary champion for jungler.

RiotRiotJaredanAug 29, 20176 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Nagoh ShanAug 29, 20172 votes

WW, Urgot, and Ryze because it feels like they respected the champion that existed and built on them, rather than just deleting them and adding a new champ with their name and the writer's personal fanfic as a background.

ZapMyHeartAug 30, 20172 votes

I suppose Karma 's relaunch was so bad that she isn't even considered on the list.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 30, 20173 votes

Karma was a proto-update. Huge kit changes and outfit changes but very little in the way of lore changes.

ZapMyHeartAug 30, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Karma was a proto-update. Huge kit changes and outfit changes but very little in the way of lore changes.

Have you not read her lore change? It was destroyed and basically an Avatar, The Last Airbender rip off.

She lost her fans (it was literally talked about in her old lore), connection with Janna, her Duchess title, her inhuman calmness, the ability to negotiate through peaceful means despite against adversary, and her political career as an Ionian representative in the League.

What they gave her was some cookie cutter story about how about she obtained her powers because it was triggered through seeing her people getting slaughtered. Yawn. That's basically the AP version of Irelia's lore, except Irelia is more militant.

Final Spark LuxAug 30, 20172 votes

I honestly hated all of them. I could understand the thinking behind some of the changes, for instance old sion having a point and click stun with 1:1 ratio and low CD, or poppy ult making immune to everything, but if that were the case, just change the 1 abilities numbers, or make the ability different. Reworks ruin the champions identity for veteran players...but I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since riot only cares about getting new players in the game so they can make money off of them. They could have made entirely new champions with the kits of these characters now, but instead decided to rework. Pretty stupid imo.

Idk why ryze is even on the list. Nobody is gonna know WHICH rework you're talking about. Karma really should be on the list. I used to like poppy. Not because of her ult, or passive, or any of that. I liked the way her Q hit, and I liked the old poppy model. Old urgot might not have been amazing in a lot of matchups, but he had a very unique playstyle that was fun even after his range nerfs. Now he walks at 300 MS in a circle. Thanks riot, so fun. Please add an option for all reworked sucked on the poll.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 30, 20173 votes

Ryze basically got on the list because his last update (The one where they finally made sweeping changes to his kit with the new ult) had a model update, a gameplay update and a lore update from where he was. Karma was a proto-update who really didn't have lore changes. They just changed how she looked and how she played. (I'd also argue people would universally dislike it because it was the first and also the most poorly handled).

All that said, I think you're being a bit too harsh. The reason reworks happen is because:

Thematic Niche overlap (They can do undead noxian juggergod better)
Roster bloat. (Riot binged hard on making champs in S1/S2 and League's roster is the biggest of any moba)
Revitalizing old champions. (A lot of kits, as you point out, don't hold up much if at all comparative to current league)
Offer something to old and new players, as sometimes vets can enjoy a rework.

As one last side, removed parts of a kit can still come back. One of the things Riot was very keen on with Urgot was to remove his old kit so they could recycle parts of it into champs where it fits better, such as his ult. (I'm almost certain the E->Q interaction will come back in some champ).

TheHappyReaperzAug 30, 20172 votes

The Yorick rework is probably my favorite. The music and visuals are both great, and the interactions between Yorick and the Maiden are awesome. Only thing I felt was lacking was the impact of the minions in his kit. But they are cute. So, somewhat forgiven.

WinterkillAug 30, 20172 votes

I like all of the VGU so far, besides Karma. Of course, no Riot Games Developer will come in here and say her VGU was a failure. These delusional Developers will say she is amazing, perfectly fine, a polished champion, a champion with a unique story, theme, art and kit that offers something new to the game. It is the total opposite. These Develoeprs are out of touch with reality if they think Karma is amazing right now and was amazing four years ago. Karma needed a modernization and not a complete gut and reimagining. Year after year they continue to make the same excuses, and I literally have been battling with Meddler for years to get him to talk about anything in regards to Karma, and all the Developers sweep her under the rug for a rushed LaBlanc rework, 4 Ryze VGU, unnecessary work on half of the mage champions, complete ignorance towards Enchanters and so much more.

Until these Developers show me hard proof and dedication towards progress with Karma, I will continue to say they don't care about her or any other champion for that matters as long as Ahri, Jinx, Ezreal, and Lux exist. They just don't care.

Riot should never have removed her fans and shield bomb.
Karma needed a modernization and not a VGU that is unfinished with an idea they tried to shove down our throats.
Riot should never let Developers who are not passionate about the champion, work on the champion because we get Ricklessabandon ruining them and removing everything players liked.

Valaran NaraSep 2, 20172 votes

Poppy made me cry. Like, her comic brought a tear to my eye because the emotion she portrayed in that moment when she was about to give up all hope, hurt. Then the fact that she looked into the eyes of those in fear of their lives and refused to surrender legit tugged on me.

Like, I am 23 right now. If this happened when I was 16, I kid you not, Poppy would have been the basis for my entire ideology on life.

Like, I always felt like I wasn't good enough or that I'm just wasting my time. I'm worthless. I'm useless. I have nothing to really show for despite how hard I try to do what I feel was right. But why keep going? Because, in the end, you do what you do for a reason, and there are people who need you, whether they realize it or not. Even if you don't feel like you amount to anything at all, to some, you are a hero. One greater than you would ever believe.

It's also the reason I'm not dead. I stopped a friend who was in the midst of downing a full pill bottle. In my right conscious, I cannot end myself after stopping her from doing the same thing. If I am her symbol of hope, what would it mean if I gave in? She would probably abandon ship soon after.

And that's why I was a filthy stinkin' lvl 7 Poppy main up until I realized how batshit crazy Kled is.

AhrisSep 1, 20171 votes

Ahri was worst. Still salty about it.