Singed and Warwick Discussion (Riot Approved)

Chromatic Eagle·May 22, 2015·10 votes·1,622 views

Jaredan mentioned these two when discussing what are a character's core themes, values, personalities, settings, etc. Hopefully we can take this opportunity to give our perceptions on them (or forever hold our QQ).

What's the nature of their relationship, if they should even have one?

For me, Singed is a jerk. Not a comical one, or a badass one, not even a terrifying one, he's just a jerk. I can't tell if it's due to a lack of empathy, or he enjoys people suffering, but he has no issue dumping a ton of chemicals on anyone, including his own allies. Noxians probably respect him enough to partner with him, and Ionians must hate him. He's also a business man, so he has some intelligence. That's the crazy thing about Zaun, they're all intelligent to some degree.

25 Comments

TerraRisingMay 22, 201511 votes

Well, since the thread I started was derailed before it began, I'll chime in here.

Singed

Similar characters: Heisenberg (Breaking Bad).

Traits: Singed is all about the chemistry and its effects. Money, while necessary for his work, is a secondary benefit. Personal relationships are not important to Singed, which is the end product of both his genius and his focus on his work. Not insane, but extremely indifferent to the suffering of others. Someone to be feared and avoided rather than respected and admired.

Most important aspect: In-game, Singed is a walking chemical trail, poisoning his opponents and not caring about the possible environmental damage. This indifference should be kept in any reworks involving the "Mad Chemist."

Warwick :

Similar characters: Boba Fett (Star Wars), Jon Talbain (DarkStalkers).

Traits: Bounty Hunter / Mercenary in previous life. Cares only about getting the job done and getting paid at the end. Willing to lie, backstab others and take shortcuts (Singed's potion) to accomplish immediate goals. Treated more like a tool in Zaun, or a "go-fer," than as an ally. After becoming a werewolf, his truly inhuman nature has come out.

Most important aspect: Warwick's story is about two failures: Failing to capture Soraka and failing to take precautions with Singed's formula. After a lifetime of success in Zaun, this fate is beyond his ability to accept.

I hope to hell I did this right.

Chromatic EagleMay 22, 20152 votes

That's actually better than what I wrote.

BlitzidiousMay 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Well, since the thread I started was derailed before it began, I'll chime in here.

Similar characters: Heisenberg (Breaking Bad).

Traits: Singed is all about the chemistry and its effects. Money, while necessary for his work, is a secondary benefit. Personal relationships are not important to Singed, which is the end product of both his genius and his focus on his work. Not insane, but extremely indifferent to the suffering of others. Someone to be feared and avoided rather than respected and admired.

Most important aspect: In-game, Singed is a walking chemical trail, poisoning his opponents and not caring about the possible environmental damage. This indifference should be kept in any reworks involving the "Mad Chemist."

:

Similar characters: Boba Fett (Star Wars), Jon Talbain (DarkStalkers).

Traits: Bounty Hunter / Mercenary in previous life. Cares only about getting the job done and getting paid at the end. Willing to lie, backstab others and take shortcuts (Singed's potion) to accomplish immediate goals. Treated more like a tool in Zaun, or a "go-fer," than as an ally. After becoming a werewolf, his truly inhuman nature has come out.

Most important aspect: Warwick's story is about two failures: Failing to capture Soraka and failing to take precautions with Singed's formula. After a lifetime of success in Zaun, this fate is beyond his ability to accept.

I hope to hell I did this right.

Give this man or woman a cookie!

TTUPhoenixMay 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Well, since the thread I started was derailed before it began, I'll chime in here.

Similar characters: Heisenberg (Breaking Bad).

Traits: Singed is all about the chemistry and its effects. Money, while necessary for his work, is a secondary benefit. Personal relationships are not important to Singed, which is the end product of both his genius and his focus on his work. Not insane, but extremely indifferent to the suffering of others. Someone to be feared and avoided rather than respected and admired.

Most important aspect: In-game, Singed is a walking chemical trail, poisoning his opponents and not caring about the possible environmental damage. This indifference should be kept in any reworks involving the "Mad Chemist."

:

Similar characters: Boba Fett (Star Wars), Jon Talbain (DarkStalkers).

Traits: Bounty Hunter / Mercenary in previous life. Cares only about getting the job done and getting paid at the end. Willing to lie, backstab others and take shortcuts (Singed's potion) to accomplish immediate goals. Treated more like a tool in Zaun, or a "go-fer," than as an ally. After becoming a werewolf, his truly inhuman nature has come out.

Most important aspect: Warwick's story is about two failures: Failing to capture Soraka and failing to take precautions with Singed's formula. After a lifetime of success in Zaun, this fate is beyond his ability to accept.

I hope to hell I did this right.

One interesting appraisal I saw of their old lores was their motivation. Both were chemists who made weapons, but Singed was primarily callous. He was about the science itself and seeing if he could develop new weapons - the actual pain and death the weapons caused was irrelevant to him. Warwick was a straight up sadist - he enjoyed the pain he caused, hence his nickname of the Deathmaker. As the author put it, at least Warwick's victims died for a reason, albeit a twisted one.

CupcakeTrapMay 22, 20156 votes

I was very pleased to see Jaredan provide this kind of concrete, useful prompt. We know that Warwick and Singed are slated for more lore-work, and we've been given enough notice to have a real discussion about them that will hopefully inform that new lore. Thanks, Jarebear!

I've already spent too much time on Boards today, but I did want to make one substantive comment about Warwick.

Warwick This dude has already had one huge rewrite. Going off of memory:

In the first (?) version of his lore, Soraka sacrificed her divinity to transform a murderous bioweapons engineer into a mid-tier jungler, apparently being so far removed from the mortal realm that it seemed to her a fitting "curse" to make a murderer into a murderous werewolf with super-strength and preternatural senses.

Not going to lie: this was pretty awkward. I sort of wonder how that went down in-universe.

Caitlyn It's high time that merchant of death was brought to justice. I've been asking you to let me bring him in for months. You got your panties in a twist about jurisdiction or something. Caitlyn He's gone too far this time. When he started doing tests on Piltovian prisoners of war, he committed a crime against Piltover. Caitlyn (dramatically lock-and-loads her rifle) I say we arrange an extradition. (smacks fist into palm) Hell yeah. Soraka There is no need. He has already been punished by a higher law than your own. Caitlyn I have a feeling you aren't talking about a League tribunal. Soraka Though I can never again look to the stars without shame, and they shall forevermore answer my orisons with cries of accusation, by their power I have called a curse down upon him. Caitlyn He's dead? Soraka Oh, no, I turned him into a fearsome beast with the strength of ten men and claws that can rend steel. Caitlyn How does that help? In what possible way does that help? He was already a war criminal; now he's a war criminal who's also a werewolf? Freaking Ionians, man. They're worse than Demacia. At least when Demacia's done, the bad guys are dead. Seriously, lady, what kinda divine retribution is that? You gave him FREAKING SUPERPOWERS. He is now OFFICIALLY a SUPERVILLAIN! Soraka T_T Yeah, you BETTER cry. Come on, 'raka. What's next? Hey, I bet Darius could use some FIRE BREATH. Caitlyn Don't give her any ideas. Caitlyn Well, I suppose it's time to invest in some silver bullets. Vayne (tumbles into view) Vayne I ANSWER THE CALL. Caitlyn (sighs) Greeeeeeaaaat.

Then, we got new lore in which Warwick punked Soraka, and then downed a half-finished Singed potion. He now needs her heart to stop from going full-wolf, and allow him to stay at a comfortable "some wolf" level of wolfosity. It's better than the old lore in some ways, worse in others. I like the element of trickery. I question the viability of a lore-path that requires him to kill another major character, but hey, maybe he'll find some other celestial to eat.

But this post isn't about the nuances of his lore, old or new. It's about you, Riot.

Riot, I want you to take your Warwick retcon credit card. Go get it. And a pair of scissors. Now I want you to cut it up. I know it's hard. We believe in you. Remember what we talked about in group last week.

Seriously, though. I'm not saying I adore his new lore, but it's not inherently awful, either. You can write a good story around it. Fantastic stories have been written around derpier story outlines. You're going to give Warwick an additional personality disorder if you retcon him again. You've already had one bite at the apple. You've made your bed, and now you need to sleep in it. See how I picked one metaphor, then switched to another? It's like that. I'm going to be responsible and resist the urge to switch to yet another metaphor. You need to sleep in the bed you made because you're not the only one sleeping in it. The community is in there with you, and if you remake the bed, you'll wake them up. (Uhhhh. This is kind of going in an awkward direction. I shall persevere.) Even if the fitted sheet is on the wrong way, you don't rouse the other person from their dreams to remake the bed at 4 in the morning. What if they're dreaming about an awesome lightsaber duel? No. The bed's made.

So what I'm saying is, whatever you do with Warwick, focus on building upon his latest story, rather than retconning him yet again.

Chromatic EagleMay 22, 20155 votes

We need to have a talk about your analogies and roleplaying.

67450548_DELMay 23, 20151 votes

[deleted]

CupcakeTrapMay 23, 20155 votes

{quoted}

See, the issue with "old Warwick" was that he was a chemist but his visuals and kit didn't even convey that. Now that he's a manhunter, it makes sense.

I would tend to agree. The "evil chemist" thing not only stepped into Singed's thematic territory, but also didn't really have any connection to his in-game persona. I appreciate that they kept the Singed connection in his new lore, in an alternative form. It helps maintain some cohesion across the retcons.

If we could somehow go back in time, I guess I'd probably default to arguing that they should not have retconned Warwick's lore, as derpy as it was. There were ways to make it less derpy without totally redoing it. Still, the new lore is an improvement, and they did clearly take pains to reuse as much material as they could. What I would object to would be yet another "back to the drawing board" retcon.

{quoted}

As for Soraka... Singed said "the heart of A Celestial" not "the heart of the Starchild". Why Warwick went after Soraka, let alone know who she was and where to find her, is open to interpretation. But if the guy can go to the Shadow Isles and return unscathed, well... he's resourceful, that much is certain.

Good point. I would assume that it was because Soraka was the most "accessible" celestial at the time. Maybe she was in fact the only one; I don't know what other celestials exist, other than Bard, who seems pretty hard to pin down.

{quoted}

As for Singed... he now has leeway to forge his own path. Because really, being Warwick's apprentice was nice and all, but in the end you never saw the same "parallels" between them than you see (sorta) with Yi and Wukong.

At the time it made sense. Now, not so much.

Yeah. I think it works better to shift all the "Zaunite techmaturgic WMD maker" material over to Singed, who runs around the Fields hurling mega-adhesive goo bombs and spraying toxins everywhere. Riot still has some room to elaborate on the connection between them. Maybe they both worked for the same "crowd"? Maybe something with Noxus?

67450548_DELMay 23, 20153 votes

[deleted]

CupcakeTrapMay 23, 20151 votes

I think Jaredan posted today confirming that Kayle and Morgana would retain their "otherworldly" backstory, but even if that would make them rather different than Soraka, it would be silly to say that being "otherworldly" would contradict being "celestial". I could totally see Kayle becoming sort of a patron celestial for Demacia, and Morgana for Noxus.

I kind of feel like the Darkin are portrayed as different. I could see them redoing Kayle and Morgana as Darkin, though I'm not sure I'd like that. They did say something about there being five (?) Darkin. If they keep going with that, it's hard to imagine them not tapping Kayle and Morgana for two of those spots. (Again, my gut reaction is that I don't like that, but the thought only just occurred to me after reading your post, so who knows.) One possibility I like a little more is that they both fell, and while Kayle readily took up a position of power as a guiding spirit of Demacia, Morgana refused to do so. Maybe that was part of Morgana's rebellion? That she didn't want her identity to be subsumed like that?

Jax Myself, I rather like the fan theory of Jax as a reluctant Darkin struggling to suppress the powers and compulsions that Aatrox has embraced. It would explain the "self-nerf" nicely: he doesn't want to unleash his full power, lest he lose himself and become another Aatrox. That also would create some nice tension, as Aatrox seeks to tempt him into a fight, desiring a worthy adversary.

FinnicalMay 23, 20152 votes

I believe, especially after reading your post, that Warwick is a pretty weak character story-wise. I think Riot could easily Retcon the hell out of him without doing much damage to the character. He's pretty easy to break down really: Man kills for money, man likes killing, then became beast and continued to like killing.

That being said, I never played WW or cared much for him. If others feel he is stronger/more complicated than my impression of him I would be interested in hearing it.

Chromatic EagleMay 23, 20151 votes

Well tracking. He's a tracker. Good at it too.

TsumikiriMay 22, 20155 votes

I don't know where else to say this, but I'm so glad Jaredan gave us this specific thing to do. I hope he asks for more discussions about specific champions in the future.

Anyway, I don't play much of other Singed or Warwick, but I have read a lot of lore.

**Singed: **I'd say the core values of Singed for me are (1) he doesn't care about other people (sociopath?) but is certainly not "just evil", and (2) he kinda gives of like a Nazi scientist vibe imo, like he will perform the most inhumane and horrendous experiments just to glean the tiniest bit of knowledge.

**Warwick: **He is the mercenary/bounty hunter who "always gets the job done" by any means necessary. The pride he has in his reputation is something key with this character imo.

As for the "friendship" between these two characters, I think that Singed does not have the capacity for true friendship (probably just using WW as a test subject), and WW would only make a "friend" if he could get something out of it (e.g. werewolf potion).

Yes, I know some/most/all of my points were said by other people. They have my upvote. :)

Chromatic EagleMay 22, 20153 votes

It's always helpful to get as many perspectives as possible, even if they're all similar.

XulsigaeMay 23, 20154 votes

I'm interested in more interactions between the scientist champions. I'd love to know what Singed thinks of Heimerdinger, Viktor, Mundo, Jayce and such. Does he have respect for Viktor and Mundo and disdain for Heimerdinger and Jayce? Does Jayce try to break into his lab to destroy a particularly nasty weapon? Did Singed accidentally create Twitch through some super ooze he flushed? Does Singed give Jinx explosives to test? Did he work with Mundo ever? (What was his judgement like?) An inquiring mind wants to know.

FinnicalMay 23, 20152 votes

I actually think Singed is a poor choice for scientist interaction stories. Singed's focus is entirely on his own work, I doubt he cares at all about the work of others. If anything he would be disinterested or disapproving of their work I think. In fact I think this is his largest flaw as a man or as a scientist: He's so self-involved he wouldn't be able to gain the benefit of the research others are doing.

I really like the idea of a Jinx/Singed story. I think he would find her intriguing to some extent, and she would think he was pure fun. Kind of a Joker/Harley Quinn situation.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Rats huh? Love it!

MTemptyMay 23, 20154 votes

To me, Singed is the intellectual juggernaut. Not just in stature, but as an icon. While Noxus is proud of Darius and Riven as the frontline warriors who do not waver, Zaun's human embodiment is Singed. He is biological warfare. He's a staunch and thin man, but his composure hides his insanity, his absolute drive for success. His tone never wavers, but his fighting style reveals what lies beneath the surface. Its savage, merciless, and every bit of Singed's madnessis poured into it. Its no stretch to say his feral psyche in combat mirrors that of Warwick(post wolf). He uses poison to cripple his physically more menacing enemies, but those who dare think he is a frail combatant are in for a rude awakening. His armour tells it all. Gauze to hide his expression and make it appear as though he is concealing vulnerable flesh, spikes on his shield and shoulders. Not content with shield bashing opponents in hand to hand combat, Singed singlehandedly lifts his opponent and throws them in a feat of strength that allows his victim to bear witness to the fruits of the mad chemist's labour, to see the payoff for the scars and burns that give this monster a name. For though the pain of these burns could break a lesser man's mind and body, this legend of Zaun, is barely singed....

FinnicalMay 23, 20152 votes

Singed How about a drink?

Singed is my favorite champion, and it isn't because he's such a troll. I love that he is a sociopathic maniac who genuinely enjoys hurting and maiming others in the name of his own horrific science. Humans are his play-things, and he can't get enough. His close combat style suggests to me that he would be happy to hurt people with his own hands and is no stranger to a fight. I see him as unwilling to share his work with others, I suspect he would view other scientists with some derision. It would be hilarious if his new lore could include him flinging someone into a vat of chemicals.

Singed Mix, mix, swirl, mix.

I do not want to see him become a redeemable character. I prefer him as a character who is just evil because he likes it, or as a natural byproduct of his particularly aggressive form of bio-science. I don't see him as insane either, just born cruel with no interest in changing. A good villain works wonders for a story.

Singed This may hurt.

As a snapshot of how I see Singed, I picture him in the middle of a battlefield, surrounded by soldiers afflicted by his chemical weapons, gripping a man by the face and forcing a potion down his throat, a massive twisted smile on his wrecked and hideously disfigured face. Were it a video, he would stand back and watch the man melt/explode/bleed from several orifices. He might frown a little and make a note of how it didn't work as fast as he would have liked.

Singed Shaken, not stirred.

Not to say he can't have a complicated past, but if he were to be given a generic "I was wronged so I will get vengeance on humanity" story like Xerath I would get REALLY disappointed. I would likely stop playing League.

Singed How'd that taste?

As for Warwick, I think Singed used him. I think he only ever worked with him to get the groundwork knowledge he needed to cause the havoc he dreamed of. I would love to see a story about Singed's work going a direction Warwick wasn't comfortable with, and them having a fight about it, physical or otherwise. I would really like it if Singed was the one to turn Warwick into a werewolf, in an attempt to destroy him with unexpected results.

I realize many don't quite see him in quite the way I do, but I think the troll-y "jerk" singed is a weak character. I see him as a true villain.

XulsigaeMay 24, 20152 votes

I would like to add Singed could do some actually beneficial chemistry to make him more like Fritz Haber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber.

Haber invented both chemical warfare and a means to feed billions of people. He enjoyed both aspects of his work.

TerraRisingMay 24, 20152 votes

That is more of a story idea than a core character element.

Also, we already have an example of that in the Journals of Justice, where Singed partnered with Gragas to create and distribute Graggy Ice. (Singed designed the stills used in Gragas's operation, iirc.)

XulsigaeMay 24, 20152 votes

Not sure if that's canon anymore. Well, that's our Narrative for you.

I think having Singed not only produce chemicals to kill but to save lives would add a character element. Would show rather than tell that he's morally ambiguous. He cares about results but not only the ones that kill, and indeed could be a savior to some. Antibacterial goop for example.

GapyboMay 22, 20151 votes

His gameplay is so silly it's quite difficult to take him seriously.

Chromatic EagleMay 22, 20152 votes

Singed or Warwick?

FinnicalMay 23, 20151 votes

In Riot's original release of League the lore was rarely tied to any champion's kit in a cohesive way, though there are obvious exceptions.

There are two easy take-aways lore-wise from his game-play however. Singed is friggin' crazy; Singed player's drinking "insanity" potion (hint) and then running full bore under turrets and into the enemy team shows you how nuts he really is. The poison trail he leaves behind is the strongest tie to the lore; He is testing his latest experiment during combat. What better data could you have for a chemical weapon than actual combat data? Singed isn't scared of anyone, he's excited to test his latest creation on the strongest opponents he can find.

Mega-adhesive makes good sense, but fling is a little harder to nail down. Unfortunate since it is easily the skill he is most associated with in people's minds. However, I think fling could be a representation of his willingness to man-handle his opponents. I think Singed has been in fights before. Considering the shield, he may even be ex-military. Perhaps his natural cruelty to others and his fascination with destroying people's bodies with chemicals was born on the battlefield.