Why are all champs/skins gender-locked?

Vekkna·Apr 5, 2017·4 votes·4,979 views

Another game I play that is based on Marvel comics has costumes that change gender. Most Spider-man costumes are Peter Parker, but some are Gwen Stacy or Mayday Parker.

So I'm wondering why we don't have that in League. Seems like an easy way to reimagine champs, make lots of money, and walk the line between diversity and pandering. Kinda seems like a win/win. Think about a few examples:

Ivern as a Gaia type
Graves as an Annie Oakley type
Zyra with a sorcerer's body
Lee Sin as a Chun Li type
Ahri as a sexy dude - the money prints itself
Xaryah and Rakan in various combinations
Tryndamere as a Barbarian Sonya type
Ursula-got - again, the money prints itself!
Leblanc as a Loki type
Jinx as a Joker type
Ezreal as a Samus type

The cool ideas basically never end, so why don't they do any of this?

45 Comments

RalanrApr 5, 20177 votes

A lot of extra effort for a pretty superficial gimmick?

VekknaApr 5, 20171 votes

That's pretty true of every legendary skin, no?

RalanrApr 5, 20171 votes

Legendaries usually don't involve getting a new VA.

VekknaApr 5, 20171 votes

In most cases it really wouldn't be that difficult to just lower the pitch of the VO.

WarWorkApr 5, 20173 votes

Also they would need to completely change the model for most characters, then they would have to do this for 130+ characters PLUS new VA's PLUS new animations for walking, running and skills. That's a lot of work for something superficial. That's ore work than typical legendary skins, which are once a year.

AQA473Apr 10, 20171 votes

Actually that's the exact amount of work for legendary skins and you're thinking of ultimate skins which always have an in-game transformation aspect.

The thing is, just changing a character's model to be the opposite gender then getting new voice lines would not be that difficult. Again, they do it all the time. Ultimate and legendary skins do it every time. They could easily make a gender-swap skin a legendary skin, or go even lazier than that. There are a lot of short-cuts they could take in the development process.

WarWorkApr 11, 20171 votes

My comment was just to say making a gender swap for what this post implied to as multiple champions isn't really viable.

And i'm not saying they can't do it, but taking months to maybe a year just to make a gender swap, seems like a misallocation of resources :/. Usually riot reserves legendary skins to go in a new creative direction and the effort to just have a gender swap doesn't seem to justiffy the effort. In addition players will btch that they're paying legendary skin money on just a gender swap. (They already btch over trivialities)

Plus some champ (eg braum and all female champs except Illaoi) will need not legendary skin resources, but new champion/ rework level resources just for a gender swap

WarWorkApr 11, 20171 votes

tl dr ends doesn't justify the means and just a gender swap isn't legendary skin level

AQA473Apr 11, 20171 votes

The Riot post on this exact post says they've wanted to do it, so that argument is invalid. And your last statement is so incredibly wrong, I want to scream. That's called sexism and I'm not okay with it. No, absolutely, men and women for the most part look different physically. But suggesting that a whole new champ would need to be created just to add/remove boobs is ludicrous. It would literally just be a voice/model replacement, which legendary skins do. A new champ requires a kit build (which takes a long time due to implications with the meta), lore, and unique character design, and that's all on top of the technical skin-related work. What you said is so ignorant, I can't even.

I can't even.

KougaApr 5, 20176 votes

Its a neat idea, but I don't think its a plausible one for a few reasons. One that was mentioned by others is opportunity cost. Creating a Genderbent version of a Champ is roughly the same work as creating an entire Champion (from a Visual design standpoint). New VO, new model, new animations - its the same work that would go into a new Champion.

Also, Riot talks a lot about a Champion's "silhouette", the visual read on a Champion so that you immediately know who you're looking at. With 130+ Champions you immediately need to know if the character coming out of the brush is Caitlin or Graves, and if Graves is Annie Oakley, you may risk blurring those lines even more. Certainly you could argue all day long about how you'd make a certain Champion maintain the same visual read while being genderbent but it still weakens that element of immediate identification, which can bring up some tactical/balance issues.

Personally I'd be more interested to see the Champion designs themselves be a little more diverse - more androgynous or genderfluid characters, but that risks flaring up the community if poorly handled.

RiotVonderhamzApr 5, 20174 votes

The idea for this has actually been toyed with for a legendary skin before. Imagine picking Lucian and leading in as Senna in some sort of alternate timeline. Sounds really cool on paper, but then you get into game on the opposing team and are looking for the Lucian you're supposed to lane with, and instead you get a character with a totally different feel, animation set, sound, personality etc... It makes for really confusing gameplay.

GixiaApr 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The idea for this has actually been toyed with for a legendary skin before. Imagine picking Lucian and leading in as Senna in some sort of alternate timeline. Sounds really cool on paper, but then you get into game on the opposing team and are looking for the Lucian you're supposed to lane with, and instead you get a character with a totally different feel, animation set, sound, personality etc... It makes for really confusing gameplay.

Don't most legendary skins already have pretty drastic changes in all those regards though?

LauchmelderApr 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It makes for really confusing gameplay.

I can see this on paper, but what about reality? IMO it would be worth a try, that's the kind of stuff you could test on the PBE after all. Doesn't even need to be a full on skin, you could begin testing it with a different model alone.

MrFluffyPuffyApr 5, 20171 votes

that's the kind of stuff you could test on the PBE after all

No, it isn´t.

First, the community will see the skin on pbe and will be disappointed if they remove it (that´s why almost only content get to the pbe which will be implemented into the game -> except a few skins/ champs <- really old champion concepts which got cancelled; not actually sure if they went on pbe).

Second, it will be a waste of money if they work on this idea to just realize in the last second that this doesn´t work. That´s another reason why content on the pbe mostly goes live.

LauchmelderApr 5, 20171 votes

That's not really an argument against it. The first one's bad because the PBE was especially designed to test new things. The second one's bad because I deliberately said that they could just go with a different model to begin with. If the feedback is good they could expand on that.

BLACK REALM GODApr 10, 20172 votes

it's actually a pretty good argument.

wasted time, effort, money.
disappointment

PBE is for finalized and tested for sure going to be released ideas. the only reason why they have the PBE is to test for bugs and balance. Nothing that goes on PBE will not be released. it might be delayed or slightly modefied, but it will always be released. there are private control groups for testing the other stuff.

LauchmelderApr 10, 20172 votes

Reevaluate your statement.

One set of skins: Sewn Chaos.

BLACK REALM GODApr 10, 20171 votes

when public outcry demands it anything can happen. just look at xayahs voice overs.

SukishooApr 10, 20172 votes

That had nothing to do with the public. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/EPl4u7rQ-why-was-xayah-censored-when-kled-was-not?comment=0010

BLACK REALM GODApr 10, 20171 votes

The reason Xayah was censored is because of the specific word. Apparently "shit" has higher implications then the words Kled says, which is why "Shit" is bleeped out in Kled's VO. The word "shit" can cause our rating to go up which is something we aren't willing to risk.

literally verbatim. as in the reason why it was removed was because it's considered offensive by some and COULD cause their rating to go up.** basically fear of public outrcy.** the game is currently a T rating by the ESRB so that's not going to rise. maybe the PEGI rating or whatever other ratings there are, but that's highly doubtful.

the only way to get a pegi 18 or M rating is to have excessive violence or excessive sexual content. the sims for example has a T rating. dynasty warriors has a T rating. BATTLEFIELD 2 MODERN COMBAT HAS A T RATING.

now to be fair it is completely possible that the rating system they were referring to was in a country that is a lot more strict on their content.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_content_rating_system

such as south korea or new zealand.

SukishooApr 10, 20172 votes

PBE is for finalized and tested for sure going to be released ideas.

LOL. Not even. There have been several things over time that have been pulled from the PBE.

Skins (i.e Sewn Chaos Blitz, Sewn Chaos Amumu, Exterminator Twitch) some of which were finished and others not.

They place several experimental changes for abilities and items on there as well and a lot of the time they don't go through.

BLACK REALM GODApr 10, 20171 votes

pulling something doesnt mean it wont get released. it means it will get reworked. sewn chaos was pulled because it was a poor design and needed to be redone. simple.

https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-pbe-feedback/qnK0MB8Q-update-on-sewn-chaos

SukishooApr 10, 20172 votes

Those were scrapped, they won't be released. They will be giving those champs something else down the line and probably not even the same themes on both of them.

BLACK REALM GODApr 10, 20171 votes

oh dont give me that bs. that's not at all what scrapping a design means. they can release it any time they want as long as A. people will buy it and B. it isnt owned by someone else. Anything literally anything else is just a personal preference.

they pulled it because they didnt think people would buy it.

VekknaApr 5, 20172 votes

I see your point, but think about it like this...

Let's pretend that Superman is a champ on SR. His costumes are Classic, Cyborg, Superboy, and Ultraman.

Art team says, "hey, let's do a Supergirl costume!" The reply is, "that's too different and confusing, let's do a Steel or black Resurrection costume instead." That doesn't make sense when Supergirl is immediately recognizable, and Steel and the black resurrection costume look head-to-toe different.

Why would they have a totally different feel, personality, or even animations on a gender-swap skin? I think part of the appeal would be seeing how those existing parts of a champ's in-game personality carry over. Graves is a good example, because I think it would be hilarious to see a gritty, surly woman dashing around with a shotgun. For another example, Vayne, Quinn, RIven, etc have super butch animations that would translate fine.

BLACK REALM GODApr 10, 20171 votes

because supergirl "is immediately recognizable" and it's that recognition that she'd more or less be better off as her own character rather than a skin of superman. add on to that the fact that superman has a bulkier figure and the whole concept of skillshots and you get a lot of problems.

Friendly RamApr 10, 20171 votes

but pug'maw worked out didn't it?

SukishooApr 10, 20171 votes

EH... not that confusing. They do it over in Heroes of Newerth all the time.

WitchQueen AnnieApr 5, 20174 votes

LE MAO

Absolutely hilarious (not sure if intended), most hilarious thing I've read all day

MAYDAY PARKER? What the...

GreenLoreApr 5, 20173 votes

Well one reason is tha it would require a new Voice over,thus it would need to be at least legendary. Another is that Riot wants to keep the champ recognizeable in every skin and changing the gender would make the character look like someone else entirely.

VekknaApr 5, 20171 votes

Yeah, in the Marvel game I mentioned, a typical skin is the equivalent of a 975 skin and the gender swaps are 1850 with new v/o, model, and sometimes new particles or vfx recolors.

It depends on the champ, but I can't see how a gender swap would be more visually disrupting than a lot of skins we get. I mean, Elementalist Lux has three totally different looks in a full game. Then you have things like Zyra and Elderwood LeBlanc that look similar, or that new Pug Kog that's not even recognizable as the same champ.

And I can't tell you how many times I've thought "That's definitely not Udyr...it must be someone else" before getting stunned and bled/burned to death. =D

HyperiönApr 5, 20172 votes

Because why can't you be satisfied as what they are? And it is crossing a slippery slope when it comes to this topic.

OverpoweredSoapApr 5, 20172 votes

Readability.

ItsOrvalApr 10, 20172 votes

Because this game doesnt need your Social Justice Warrior bullshit

Hauling AsheApr 10, 20172 votes

Because genderbending is lame and belongs on tumblr and deviantart.

midnight oil24Apr 5, 20171 votes

Well they'd all need new VO's, and they'd have to pay more voice actors for that, and make entirely new models, and all that stuff takes time.

Plus, gender-swapping a character tends to sort of... devalue the original character, in my opinion. It's not a character with a unique place in the world, it's someone who can be swapped out for another person of another gender. Legendary skins have major changes, sure, but they almost always change the personality. This would basically be paying to get the same character, and I'd rather they get a unique, cool look.

Also Joker actually plans. Jinx does not. She's closer to Harley Quinn, but doesn't reach Joker's brain power level (actual joker, not the recent "joker as nothing more than a complete psychopath." He's a psycho, but he's got other stuff about him. Recent stuff dumps everything besides the psycho.) (besides lego batman. That movie was fantastic.)

VekknaApr 5, 20172 votes

I agree to some extent about staying true to characters, but there are quite a lot of champs where it doesn't make any difference or even opens up new ways to tell a character's story.

Take Zyra for example. She's definitely had other forms, and possibly other bodies. Strictly speaking, the champ's identity doesn't really change if Zyra possessed a male or female sorcerer.

Magical ZoeApr 5, 20171 votes

It'd be expensive af for them.

PlacentasApr 5, 20171 votes

Reverse Annie

DuskDaUmbreonApr 5, 20171 votes

Because males and females have vastly different body shapes. Riot would have to build a new model from the ground up for each champion, and would have to make it recognizable as that champion. Ivern would be pretty easy (only two living trees, and both vastly different, although showing that Ivern's inverted would be hard), but would an inverted Katarina even still feel like Kat? And champions like Thresh , whom are pretty much a-sex, would be impossible, not to mention the difficulty of swapping Kindred ((fe)male in their particular case is symbolic).

And that's just the base appearance. Animations would change, voices would be different, hell, even ability descriptions would have to be changed. And it'd have to change for all of the thousands of skins in League.

TyrekGoldenspearApr 5, 20171 votes

Let's bring special attention to the VO, considering how long it takes for regular VOs to be updated.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 5, 20171 votes

I did mention that. Just in an edit. [slayer-jinx-wink]

Now, I wouldn't mind it. But there are bigger, more important things to do. Including bringing said champions up to date.

VekknaApr 5, 20171 votes

Those are some good examples of champs you wouldn't do or wouldn't be worth the effort. Kat's an interesting example, though. Strictly speaking, there isn't anything about her that's uniquely female. But her gender is the only way we know that Noxus is a strict meritocracy, and that tells us more about every Noxian, not just Kat.

I think that's a pretty good example of why not to change them. It's also an example of how gender can be used for good storytelling.

On the other hand....you have champs like Talon, Veigar, etc. that would only change aesthetically without any consequence to the story. That sort of Pacman - Ms. Pacman cosmetic change is what I think would be cool.