Riot's approach to lore: Ambiguity. Our thoughts: "Not a good idea, Riot..."

darkdill··100 votes·5,203 views

It seems like your team intentionally wants to keep absolutely everything about Runeterra and its denizens as total secrets. Lores that come out never explain much, creating more questions than answers. And when your guys are saying "We'll reveal more in time, chill!", you are just tricking and pacifying us.

Where have you revealed more details on a Champion who got their lore shortened? When will we ever learn more about new-comers like Bard or Kalista?

Stop just tricking and pacifying, and start actually DOING things, like Bard does. We dunno WHAT he did, but the fact is he actually got off his high-horse and acted.

55 Comments

Reynard the ƒox46 votes

Yeah it's really sad to me that they care so little about good storytelling. I didn't even consider playing Jax, now one of my favorite characters, until I read his lore and found out what a baller he was. I can't imagine I ever would have discovered him if he had the same vague and short lore that the new champions have.

Zarxis43 votes

[{quoted}](name=a god damn hero,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=YxvK5ycK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-05T19:53:20.556+0000)

Yeah it's really sad to me that they care so little about good storytelling. I didn't even consider playing Jax, now one of my favorite characters, until I read his lore and found out what a baller he was. I can't imagine I ever would have discovered him if he had the same vague and short lore that the new champions have.

"Jax used to beat people up for money. He was too good at it, so he was nerfed by the mysterious, unknown powers that be. Now he just beats people up with a lamp post. No one knows who this enigmatic lamp-post-wielder could be beneath his mysterious mask. OoooOoooOOOh. Mysterious." —Rito

Reynard the ƒox44 votes

Do you like work for Riot or something. You've just captured their style so well.

"Master Yi is a very good swordsman. His family died too which made him practice swords even more." -Riot

oddeyeoval10 votes

Read in Microsoft Sam voice. 10/10 would get rekt again.

The Whamboozler4 votes

[{quoted}](name=a god damn hero,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=YxvK5ycK,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-05T20:13:01.803+0000)

Do you like work for Riot or something. You've just captured their style so well.

"Master Yi is a very good swordsman. His family died too which made him practice swords even more." -Riot

You mentioned his family. Too much detail. Crank it back a notch.

Centuros2 votes

That's exactly his old lore, though, just with fewer references to the League and fewer words.

Zarxis18 votes

{quoted}

That's exactly his old lore, though, just with fewer references to the League and fewer words.

Welcome to the age of new lore. Subtract any references to the League, and make it short enough for people with third-grade reading levels to finish in less than two minutes. Perhaps throw in a twist or two that few people will particularly care for.

Tannhäuser Gate2 votes

Urgot has a dark, secret past

Fed by Snu Snu35 votes

Well.

We don't know when the incident happened.

We don't know who the aggressors were.

We don't know which state the raided village belonged to.

We don't know the importance or even slight use potential of the relic.

And we don't get any hints about any of these or why we should even care about what is happening, because we don't even know how or IF it actually affected the grand scheme of things in any way whatsoever.

11/10 lore right there, totally got me hooked and not angry at how i spent minutes of my life watching a cinematic with zero substance in the end.

Omnipherious11 votes

DO talk or speculate about existing stories in the League of Legends universe

I think they're really playing up the speculation part here.

I guess we'll just have to make do with some:

LeeDark4 votes

Yeah, we will, since Narrative clearly lacks it. Did we really need a "works in mysterious ways" God-figure to take the place of the Institute in preventing mass calamity?

Darrosh Jewfist11 votes

This comment encapsulates the problems with the cinematic so well. The animation itself wasn't that great compared other works Mir is capable of producing. Which is sad because Studio Mir is capable of putting in A LOT of subtle details into their works. [See Legend of Korra and the subtle things that span entire episodes and running gags]

The problem with this cinematic is that it's rather bland. The soldiers are bland. The peasants are bland.

THEY START OFF THE CINEMATIC WITH TWO ARMIES WE DON'T CARE ABOUT BEATING EACH OTHER OVER A THING WE DON'T KNOW WHY.

Normally in movies (such as Gladiator or LoTR) they explain whatever the hell the thing is at some point.

Can't expect the same out of Riot.

Jeddy0178 votes

Well,the cinematic isn't used to show of lore we should care about.It just some random battle between 2 random groups over some random object.

The goal of this cinematic is simply to hype up Bard.Nothing more,nothing less.Once Bard is out,this cinematic won't mean crap.

The Whamboozler3 votes

{quoted}

Well,the cinematic isn't used to show of lore we should care about.It just some random battle between 2 random groups over some random object.

The goal of this cinematic is simply to hype up Bard.Nothing more,nothing less.Once Bard is out,this cinematic won't mean crap.

Bard isn't even IN most of it. He shows up at the very end and all he does is play his flute. He doesn't help the guys dying in droves for that sacred object, or whatever. He doesn't fight anyone. He doesn't do anything but take an item someone ELSE worked really hard to bring up to him and leave with it.

I think Riot is making some sort of cruel joke in regards to what supporting is like, but I'm not sure.

Jeddy0172 votes

Well........you got a point there.Doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't be taking this as lore....there's no lore to take. It's just some random event where Bard comes in & leave with a rock.

Duke Anax1 votes

I think that is a problem with the audience more than the cinematic.

If you paid attention you could get a lot of that information.

It's an Ionian Village attacked by Noxus Troops, probably during the great Ionian Noxus Invasion. The relic is powerfull and destructive.

Fed by Snu Snu5 votes

Speculations =/= Information

There is absolutely NOTHING indicating the affiliation of either the raiders or the villagers.

It could be a Demacian village for all we know.

It could a Shuriman village for all we know. The landscape isn't that lush either. (Azir would be so proud.)

In fact, since we get no information whatsoever regarding the timeline, It could even be in Freljord before Lissandra and the watchers turned it to a frozen landscape.

I shouldn't be responsible for filling up the gaps. Let alone when it's only gaps that exist and no substance whatsoever.

Tesla Effect1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fed by Snu Snu,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=YxvK5ycK,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-03-06T00:35:03.587+0000)

Well.

We don't know when the incident happened.

We don't know who the aggressors were.

We don't know which state the raided village belonged to.

We don't know the importance or even slight use potential of the relic.

And we don't get any hints about any of these or why we should even care about what is happening, because we don't even know how or IF it actually affected the grand scheme of things in any way whatsoever.

11/10 lore right there, totally got me hooked and not angry at how i spent minutes of my life watching a cinematic with zero substance in the end.

We do actually, you just dont care to do any research.

Fed by Snu Snu2 votes

By research do you mean the random crap that Rioters will throw out of their head?

Because that's not lore, that's just fan-fic created on the spot to pacify those who complain.

As far as the CINEMATIC ITSELF is concerned, there is no information whatsoever portrayed in it.

AutoreactiveCD419 votes

For something's I think its ok. Jinx being Vi's sister, the Lb possibly manipulating/impersonating J4, etc. were all kind off engaging and fun to speculate about. But if you do it for everything its not fulfilling and you don't get a decent grasp of the world they're in. It kind of feels like all the ambiguity leads to the inability to speculate about anything and its just one tease after another with no pay off.

Darrosh Jewfist11 votes

Totally agree.

Reading your comment, I think you prefer ambiguity in plot points that are repeatedly referenced. These can produce healthy (and sometimes troll-y) speculation which is good if sustained. AND I LOVE THESE.

Other good examples I can think of are...

  • Ravages of Time with the identity of the 8th Genius
  • Back in The World God Only Knows, the identities of the remaining Goddesses
  • The Two Lost Legions from Warhammer

The problem is these sort of speculations arise out of a generous amount of LORE produced that repeatedly references them. While the mainplot moves forward, these mysterious subplots slowly become more and more important.

Or they can mess it all up like Bleach which can be summarized as 'Ichigo saves the day again with random power-up'.

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

I was actually going to use Bleach as a reference but couldn't sum it up lol. Still stings how Orihime's rejecting the Will of God power plot resulted in...her crying and Ichigo reviving himself...with a power up...

I don't need everything explained to me though. Lissandra's lore had the ability to delve into long forgotten myths that were loosely based on facts. Were the Watchers void beings out for conquest? Why enslave people back then when all they want to do now is consume?

Shadow Isle is set up that way too. I'd love to hear about the modern ruined king myth and maybe get a POV from one of the champs that was around back then. It offers comparison of what was true and what wasn't, but there would still be a lot left that isn't blatantly stated. Answer some questions that should be addressed and provide hints to others that can wait or don't need answers.

Eyrgos9 votes

Riot, it's time you gave us milk AND honey. Not just milk. We need you to stop giving us ambiguous, vague teasers & start ramping up the legitimate story bits.

It's been long enough now since the horrendous retcon job you did, it's time you redeem it.

Arcade Andrew8 votes

kalista is is a ghosty goo that hunts down people who break promises, thats simple enough

bard is god simple enough for me

Athenes Lulu7 votes

Too bad Rito end up making people analyze stuff like it's in English class just to find out what's going on. And again, it might not even be true because they never seemed to confirm anything anyways.

KYU227 votes

What's the bigger issue to me is the fact that they've been lying about enriching their lore for over two years. I started playing in the start of season 3, and honestly I was pretty interested in the lore, and there was an established backstory to most of the champions. They took away JoJ and said they would enhance the lore in other ways, which turned out to be a massive lie as it's been years and nothing of significance has been added. Even the supposedly gamechanging destruction of the established lore literally did nothing but erase established canon without adding anything. I remember Rioters on the old GD talking about how new champions would breathe new life into the story behind the game, but again, it's been years and literally nothing has been done. There's no reason for any of the champions to fight anymore since they removed the league, and it's like Riot doesn't give two shits about adding anything to the story, but are more than willing to lie to us about it.

Ralfazar7 votes

Remember when Skarner had a backstory that people CARED about? You don't? Well neither does Riot.

Centuros5 votes

Amumu and Xerath got new lores after theirs got shortened, but I think they are the only ones so far to get longform lores that aren't new releases.

Also, you can only see them on their champion page on the website, where nobody ever goes. Also, it says nothing about this in the client.

Bodkins Odds3 votes

I'm pretty sure Sion got a new long form lore.

Migrañaboy4 votes

I guess that Riot doesn't care about narrative lore anymore, as they can't anticipate themselves how the newly champions will fit to the story, so they try to use the narrative as little and less inter-twinned as possible.

Squarefighter3 votes

Dude the best lore ever was the first Maokai lore. He was a tree that was like "fuck it, I'm alive" and killed all nine other champions.

PapaGreg213 votes

[deleted]

Stars Shaper2 votes

Gotta go fast!

HigeR2 votes

Kalista has a long story as well, somewhere on the forums that is

Sneak Dog4 votes

It tells the same about Kalista as her short lore does.

HigeR1 votes

then why is everyone complaining about short lore? it says the same than the long one but shorter.

I'm guessing the complain is ambiguity as a whole but the community needs to understand that good stories are driven by cliffhangers. What Kalista needs is not: "and then she sat down, had a monologue and we hear her whole back story" what Kalista needs are peers that talk about her so we have more pieces in her puzzle, and that's exactly what Riot is trying to do, telling lore through small pieces here and there for us to connect the dots more easily than reading a block of text.

Sneak Dog2 votes

Because her short nor her long lore are interesting, at least to me. They don't really tell anything interesting at all. All it tells is that Kalista is an amalgation of spirits seeking vengeance. Ok, I don't particularly care yet.

HigeR2 votes

well, in all honesty that's what she is :/ period, there's nothing more to it. Her gameplay fails to convey her theme though and yeah perhaps that story is not particularly interesting, to me it'd be better if she was this sort of native aboriginal person from the shadow isles since her passive gives that vibe and the whole having a ritual thing too.

I think what Riot tried to do with Kalista was give her this ominous presence, like, she's nothing and everything, she's what a legend looks like, she has no backstory but a bunch of stories from everywhere in the world, kind of like Aatrox, everyone whispers about his existence but no one can confirm it.

This is an interesting approach but will ultimately make champions feel disconnected from ourselves, you can't tell what Kalista feels but probably can relate way more to a champion like Katarina for example, both are supposed to be legends but one of them feels more human, I guess.

2pudge1cup2 votes

I actually like ambiguity when it comes to a few characters. It adds more to the story than having everything spelled out for you. I'm talking about Fiddle, Nocturne, Jax. Seeing their backdrop get changed would be incredibly lame, so I know it will more than likely happen.

When that ambiguity is based on a few sentence background it just looks unfinished. At least in Fiddle, Nocturne, Jax case they have a background spelled out but beyond that is largely up to the reader to decide. Of the three Fiddlesticks is by far my favorite.

Sadistic Cheese2 votes

Can I just ask a question?

I'm fine with having more lore. Good stories are always nice to read. But there's this...thing.....that people seem to have these days and I really don't understand it. It's this disconnect, this misunderstanding or this unwillingness to notice when a piece is, artistically I guess you could say, complete. It's not factually complete, you don't know everything, but in terms of how everything's gone and the tone and style of the piece, the story we get just fits and it's enough. Maybe there could be more, but what we have accomplishes what the writer set out to do and leaves us at least satisfied for the most part.

My question is: Why do we need to know everything? Why do we need to know who Kalista was, or what Bard does? Why is it that no detail can go unexplained? Is your life really incomplete if you don't know these details? Is it impossible for you to play the game because you don't know?

I understand the frustration, and I can see where there are examples of people playing and realizing they enjoy champions because they were first exposed to that champion's lore. Great, more power to you. I can also see where poorly-written short stories can leave you feeling unsatisfied.

But if the stories are good, and they give you the gist of what you're looking to know about a champion, is knowing all the little details REALLY that important?

I'm fine with Riot giving us more lore, I'll read and enjoy things as I can, but I just don't understand why everyone is so unhappy regardless of what's given to us. Yes it's not much, but from what I've seen most of the stories they gave us have been good. They fill in enough of the blanks.

Yes yes, JoJ, League Judgements, all that. I KNOW. We ALL know. It's been brought up seventeen thousand eight hundred and fifty times now. They were interesting, but there's no place for them here now that the League itself is gone. Yes, I know, travesty, complaints, blah blah blah. What's done is done and I don't think, after all this time and outcry, that anything's going to change on that front. They know how you feel. They're unlikely to change it for their own reasons. Deal with it and move on. If you keep comparing everything you get to the past, when Riot was a smaller company and had more time and energy to dedicate to these kinds of things, instead of taking these new works on their own merits you're always going to be disappointed. Stop torturing yourselves.

I know it's not something anyone wants to answer but I'll ask again: Why? What makes it so urgently, direly, incredibly important that you know EVERY. SINGLE. DETAIL. of a champion's lore? Yes, you love some champions. I do too. Yes, you love having strong, rich lore in a game, I do too. But is it REALLY required? If what we're getting is GOOD, just not ENOUGH for you, is more REALLY needed?

Sneak Dog12 votes

It'd be nice to know a story and guess for details, rather than know details and guess for a story.

darkdill4 votes

This.

Sadistic Cheese2 votes

That's the point, though: you have a story. It's not the most detailed thing, but you DO have one. Why is there a constant outcry for more, or rather that what we have isn't enough? Take the Bard cinematic for example:

We don't know a ton of what went on there. Very few details. For example I'm guessing the soldiers attacking the village MIGHT have been Noxians. But why are they there? Just for that artifact? If so, what's so important about it? Why were there three points? are there two more orbs of equal power floating about somewhere or did Bard take all three? Those are the kinds of questions I can see people asking.

Yet that video, that story, told us what we needed to know about bard's basic purpose. Perhaps not much, and there's questions to be asked, but the bottom line is there: when ancient relics are or may be misused, Bard steps in. Very basic, very simple, not much to work with but that's okay. We get the gist of it and it was cool. League's nature as a game doesn't, at the moment, benefit from a coherent narrative very much. Beyond small little side-quests that may or may not happen depending on teamcomps and meta (even when Rango and Kha were both meta, I never saw their event happen all that often, for example.)

I agree and understand with what you're saying, it just feels like whenever we get ANYTHING, ANY kind of story offered up, regardless of it's content or quality, it never seems to be enough for people. It reignites the flames of discontent over the lore changes and we get more complaints again. I appreciate the passion for good characters like these, but I question why there just never seems to be enough.

Tesla Effect1 votes

Yes thats exactly what I think. Most people just dont care about the lore and some of those that do ask a lot and complain a lot along the way.....which aint helping and is what brought us to this mess in the first place.

Sneak Dog3 votes

it just feels like whenever we get ANYTHING, ANY kind of story offered up, regardless of it's content or quality, it never seems to be enough for people.

Reborn. That thing was awesome. Azir and/or Xeraths full backgrounds posted on the forums, that's the amount I want.

Bards video isn't really a story though, it's a video made solely to show what Bard does. It doesn't really tell an engaging story, but it settles a character, or at least a small part of it.

Also, your questions, I don't particularly care. I don't really care why there were three points. I'm not engaged. This is because the things I got weren't very engaging (well, and Leagues lore as a whole isn't very engaging if a champions whole character can be changed whenever Riot feels like it, different discussion.

The reason why people perpetually ask for more is perhaps because we used to have more too. Now we are back to zero. Riot might say that everything that didn't really need the IoW is still canon, but Trundle and Xerath proof otherwise. Now we have practically nothing to even base speculation on.

Sadistic Cheese2 votes

Hrm, well, I can see where you're coming from. I can agree it doesn't engage you much beyond the first watch. It's superficial and mostly just made to build hype, I'd imagine. Which, in that regard? It probably has done it's job.

I agree that those questions were rather nit-picky. It was just an example of the kinds of things I hear from people who are rather unhappy about the lore, and passionate fans in general. It really goes for anything: we like to have all the details hammered out when it comes to something we care about.

is there any upside you can think of to the current approach to lore that Riot is doing? Given the format of the game, do you think the current approach fits in any way?

The reason I ask (and the questions go for anyone who cares to answer) is simply because while I understand the feelings, I wonder if we're so busy decrying the issue and asking why that, we may miss the answer to why because we haven't looked at it from a neutral standpoint.

PickleBabah3 votes

It's not even EVERY. SINGLE. DETAIL. A medium-two sized summary of who they are and why is enough. What we DON'T want is 2 sentences. At this point, the only thing that captures a character is old lore.

Look at "A New Dawn", their newest cinematic. Characters included had mass amounts of lore that had at least explained something about who they are and why. It might seem irrelevant because that was nearly a year ago, but really, they obviously had no trouble capturing characters in the ways of their old lore, and to be honest, the more information you have on someone, the more you can expose and express. Not only to bookworms, but to every form of fan work, it helps capture certain personalities and characteristics.

I doubt that many people know about Lux's real story. But some fine details like that are what animates these characters. It might paint a small tinge of sadness that you cannot unsee. It's subtle, I know. But it will always express and expose more personalities and characteristics, new or old, than a cinematic. Both are good for their own purpose, but none is a replacement for the other.

And finally, the answer to your question: "Yes, you love having strong, rich lore in a game, I do too. But is it REALLY required? If what we're getting is GOOD, just not ENOUGH for you, is more REALLY needed?" Needed? Nothing here is needed. Most of what Riot does is not needed. However, Riot is pretty darn aware they harbor the most played online game in the world. And you're going for needed? For every other department, their stuff is mad insane. Artwork, models, cinematic trailers, animations, voice acting, music, you name it, they got it. And they work dead hard on it too. Watch Frequencies. Do you see the dedication they have, the time they spend, the intensity of the effort they exert onto something that isn't even needed? Go watch it, and you'll be amazed about how much the characters matter to them. Now imagine them making a soundtrack based off of someone newer like Rek'Sai. It will, I assure you, not be as good as any other champion with the more compact, rich, old lore.

Now imagine, if the lore team put that much effort into things. You see the big flashy things like the Music and the Cinematic Trailers all with their own behind the scenes and how hard they worked on it, how long it took for them to pull out such an extravagant piece of art that millions of people will marvel at, but lore doesn't need those. But Lore expresses its own behind the scenes. Within every word, there is a thread that will slowly unwind a curtain and entice you behind those very scenes. Or at least it's supposed to. That's what lore is, a more subtle, yet brilliant form to express the development of a character.

Now, I ask you: Why does it matter that any beyond the extent of gameplay is reinforced into a richer form of itself? Well, I'll take that up myself. It's because nothing right now is as good as it was before. It's not the need, the yearn for books and books, but what we've changed to, what we've devolved to is a much lesser version of itself.

I'll just leave this here, and tell me which one you'd prefer.

Skarner's New Lore: Skarner, the crystalline guardian, defends the entrance to a realm deep beneath the Shuriman wastes. The few who survive trespassing his domain describe a creature of terrifying intelligence, anger, and precision. What this merciless creature protects, no one knows.

Skarner's Old Lore: Centuries ago, there lived a race of creatures as ferocious as they were wise. The Brackern were unusual beings blessed with the earth's primal magic, embodied in the form of crystals. Their kind knew of an arcane ritual to bind their life's essence to a crystal, communing with the magic embedded in it. Wit h this power, the Brackern thrived in the Odyn Valley, protecting both creatures and crystals alike. Despite attacks from those looking to claim the primal magic, it seemed that nothing could get past the Brackern's defenses. Nothing, that is, until the devastation of a Rune War.

A vicious battle was fought near the Odyn Valley and unleashed the chaotic magic poisoned the crystals. The Brackern began to grow sick and die, and no amount of defensive magic could reverse the effects. To avoid extinction, their only course was to hibernate underground until the wars stopped. The strongest, most intelligent Brackern hibernated closer to the surface and awaken first and assess the world's condition for the return of their race. The recent mining operations and violent escalation in Kalamanda were enough to waken the first of these vanguards. When Skarner burst to the surface, he lashed out in anger and confusion. Reason eventually won out over his anger when he realized that the agents of the League who found him were simply functionaries. Skarner was invited to the Institute of War to share the Brackern's story. In return, the summoners told him about the history that his kind had slept through. Much had been done to curb the unchecked use of magic since the Rune Wars, but it was obvious that the world was not yet safe for his kind to reawaken. For now, however, there is a place where Skarner can use his power to change the world into one to which his kind could eventually return: the League of Legends.

"The humans have not yet learned to control their magic -- what once was Kalamanda is now a crystal scar on the history of this world." --Skarner

F35H2 votes

Agreed. What did happen to the grand lore I actually loved to read. They hole unraveling about runeterra, and other continuous stories made me want to read more, and more about the place. The new lore is very vague, and seems to have no writers soul in its context really.

I Main Swain2 votes

I have never been as angry about anything with league as I have with the lore team. I mean, I can understand that good backstories don't just fly out the butthole, but they seem to be incredibly constipated (not to mention that it is truly crap that comes out). I, on my own, could be writing BETTER lore that actually tells you about a champ faster than their whole frikin team.

PickleBabah2 votes

Exactly, right now, there are so many, "mysterious person whose identity must remain unveiled" people in League's roster of champions right now. Thing is, that cliche barely works for one person. Evelynn Mordekaiser Shaco Jax Rammus Are all very much lore-less champions. (With the exceptions of some working theories that may apply) They have "theories" and snippets of character, but lack any real reason as to have that character as they have no story to have shifted them that way.

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