I have controversial opinions about the lore and I am going to share them!

Laurgon·Mar 19, 2015·10 votes·1,299 views

Tl;dr: I agree that lore is moving too slowly, but I like the direction it's been going.

I agree that the IoW was more of a limiting factor for storytelling than anything else.
JoJ was stupid. It ended before I started playing, but I read some old issues. They were basically trashy gossip magazines. There were some good tidbits in there, like Blitzcrank's dating service, but in terms of actual lore value, they were pretty meh overall.
I like that Riot is phasing out extraplanar origin stories. Making Nasus and Renekton come from Runeterra instead of some magical Totally Not Egypt plane was huge in contributing to the world's flavor. I would honestly not mind them doing that to Taric, Kayle, and Morgana.
I don't think Xerath is just a trope. The actions that he took in the relevant parts we saw of his story are kind of trope-y, sure, but I don't feel that his character is any flatter because of that. Same goes for Cass (I think Jaredan mentioned in another thread how her backstabbing Sivir was her stepping out of her comfort zone). Does how you interact with your boss define your entire character?
Trundle's and Gragas's old backstories had some good aspects, but in the end I also like their current ones. I think Trundle's old story was more interesting than Gragas's, so there's maybe more of a loss there, but could they do something similar to that in the future? Not sure there's any reason they couldn't. The main appeal for Gragas's old story was that he and Jax would get into barfights together. Not sure there's any reason he still can't do that either.
Unrelated to most of the new lore/retcon stuff, but: Amumu is stupid. There, I said it. I think his new background, in which he is potentially a lost Shuriman prince, is stronger than his old one (which was mysterious), but I feel that the old champion designers had some fantastic potential with the mummy archetype and they wasted it. They could have made him a fantastic, sandy terror. Instead they made him... angsty. A lot of people don't like the new, darker direction of many champions, but I think the mummy archetype would have been improved by that.

Do I want more from the Lore team? Of course. I support the retcon, but I wish they'd had something to show us before they made the announcement so we weren't just left hanging. However, I think the direction they're going is ultimately a good one, and I just wanted to throw that out there because so many people are telling them it's terrible.

Braces for rage and downvotes

27 Comments

Sneak DogMar 19, 20155 votes

Trundle's and Gragas's old backstories had some good aspects, but in the end I also like their current ones.

Is this relevant? The issue is that characters are getting changed. If you have a favorite character now, it might be changed or replaced tomorrow. How much can you care about a character with this in the back of your mind? How much can a story engage you if you have to consider this at every sentence?

SharjoMar 19, 20154 votes

For me personally, justifying caring about a character when that notion of them being changed substantially later on isn't a big deal for me, because I take the stories as they come. The stories have, thus far, been compelling enough to me that when a change has happened it's still interested me. Hell, the new stuff actually intrigues me MORE than the old in this regard.

Trundle I wanna see him beat EVERYONE. I wanna see him conquer Freljord. I wanna see Trundle win, and I wanna see how he does it. Xerath That last line in the long version of his bio just killed me. I want to know what's next for him, I want to know what he wants to do, what he's willing to do, and what kind of struggles he's going to have when he inevitably meets up with Azir again. Maokai Often forgotten it seems but I want to see where his journey will take him, what people he will meet, and how he plans to tackle a legion of monstrous undead. Also I wanna see him team up with Lucian. I feel like that's gonna happen.

Nautilus this dude right here is one of my favorite champions. My first main, a tragic character, I love the guy. Could he be changed like Trundle, Xerath and Maokai? Yeah he could be. Does that matter? Not really. I have liked Riot's direction with the new lore. They're taking their sweet arse time about it, but I trust Riot in such that even if Naut does get replaced, he'll still be something and someone that I can still care about.

Maybe I'm naive and dumb, but hey, that's fine by me.

Sneak DogMar 19, 20153 votes

The stories might never be continued, or continued with a different character. I would've liked to see Xeraths plans with the IoW, Jax' origins and mysteries, Kayles struggles, Trundles ventures, Jarvans responses, Leblancs plots. I won't be able to.

It hurt when Trundle got removed. I really liked him as a character and suddenly he was just gone. I was eager to see what story he'd get in the Freljord, but he didn't get any. I don't care one little bit for this new troll, all he does is remind me of what is lost.

LaurgonMar 22, 20153 votes

I feel like a lot of champions' stories can still happen without the IoW. Jarvan/Demacia and LeBlanc/Noxus can still do their thing, just without the intervening third party. I think an origin retcon will probably happen for Kayle and Morgana, and if Nasus's and Renekton's lore is anything to judge by, I'd guess Riot's going to make them a lot stronger characters. Doesn't mean their lore right now is inherently bad, just that I think it could probably be better. But that doesn't necessarily mean they'll change the characters' personalities or beliefs.

I think I said this somewhere below but I think Trundle's original story really had the most going for it, and I can see both sides of that argument. Again, I'd like them to expand the lore more, because I feel like there's a lot of places where they gave us an introduction and just left us hanging, but I've been happy enough with the quality of the stories that have come out that I think when they do give us something, it'll be solid.

I do understand where you're coming from with getting attached to one aspect of a character and then having it suddenly changed, but this is just my thoughts on why the entire Great Retcon isn't a terrible decision.

Sneak DogMar 22, 20154 votes

Jarvan no longer can respond to the corruption of the Institute. Leblanc no longer can plot and manipulate summoners. ]

LaurgonMar 23, 20153 votes

Fair enough, but there's no reason they can't do that with other people. Maybe there's corruption inside Demacia, or LeBlanc needs to manipulate the Noxian government (or the Demacian government).

Just my opinion, of course. >.>

LaurgonMar 22, 20152 votes

I feel like they're keeping a lot of the characters' core personalities and motivations the same, they're just mostly changing their origins. Biggest difference there is probably Trundle.

SharjoMar 22, 20154 votes

I actually wanna see what they do with Trundle now. What's going on with him? I feel like that's actually vitally important, not just from a story point, but in terms of narrative being able to stay true to the original characters, if they even want to do that with Trundle.

LaurgonMar 22, 20152 votes

My point there was to say that I didn't think all the old lore was inherently inferior to the new stuff. It wasn't just "all old lore is bad, all new lore is good, end of story." I can definitely understand what aspects of their favorites people got attached to and why, and I can understand it's upsetting when things get changed, especially when they're not replaced with very much concrete new information. But as I said below (I'm kind of skipping around these comments, sorry) I feel like they're keeping a lot of the characters' core personalities and motivations the same, they're just mostly changing their origins. Trundle changed the most, and I can see arguments for both the new and the old lore there. But I feel like there's nothing stopping Gragas from running around and getting into barfights all the time (possibly even with Jax), just that they gave him a new allegiance and a reason for that allegiance. I'd love it if they expanded his story to clarify that; I'm right up there with you in thinking that the lore team needs to step their production up a notch. But I think in the end they're largely taking the core concepts of champions and making them stronger.

So IMO that was relevant. I hope I answered your question.

Sneak DogMar 22, 20153 votes

I feel like they're keeping a lot of the characters' core personalities and motivations the same, they're just mostly changing their origins.

If only!

The core personality they kept from Trundle is what a troll is in Runeterra. Trolls are a violent and sadistic bunch. The character on top of that is different. Xerath got his main motivation and modus operandi changed. I've seen people argue that Ashe, Karma and Tristana changed, but I won't try to argue this myself.

Riot doesn't seem to care too much about their characters. Less than they care about their storylines, evidenced by Xerath and Trundle.

LaurgonMar 23, 20151 votes

To be fair I haven't played Trundle much, and basically never played him before his rework, so I wasn't very attached to his old concept in the first place, if only because of unfamiliarity. Iirc, didn't Trundle's new lore mention that him using his brain was different from what any other troll would have done? They still sounded pretty violent to me.

I think what they're going for with the retcon is to remove weaker concepts/stories and replace them with stronger ones, but of course weak and strong can be very much in the eyes of the beholder. As far as retconned stories go, I do think that Xerath's and Trundle's were probably the strongest of the bunch, so I can definitely see your point about them seeming to not care about their characters, but I'm hoping that they'll revisit these guys someday and expand on them more and maybe try to tie in some of what people really liked about them, but Lore needs to get their collective butt in gear for anything to happen.

Sneak DogMar 23, 20152 votes

Riot themselves said that old Trundles story was really strong.

It seems to me that Riot just changes/replaces characters to fit their stories, because they value their stories higher than their characters.

LaurgonMar 23, 20152 votes

And I've seen people arguing that they don't value their stories much at all, considering the lack of updates.

You do have a good point (though the post you linked also has an okay point), and it's entirely possible they just plain screwed up with Trundle.

Hides behind shield of "I just want them to update"

Sneak DogMar 23, 20152 votes

It's a wonderful red post explaining a ton of things except that they didn't justify why Trundles character got changed. They didn't put Trundle in a new story, they put a new troll with some similarities to Trundle in a new story.

SharjoMar 19, 20155 votes

Well I'm glad I'm not the only person who likes the new stuff and the new direction!

Don't really have more to say than that but hey, you can be comforted in the knowledge that at least one person gave you an upvote this day!

LaurgonMar 22, 20151 votes

Hooray!

Jeddy017Mar 26, 20151 votes

I think there are plenty of people who like the new stuff or who are at least interested in the new direction. The problem is the way this whole retcon BS is being handle.

The SoulforgedMar 20, 20152 votes

The only trashy gossip part of the JoJ was the part with Ram Steed :/, and that was meant to be trashy gossip to lighten up the world of Runeterra. If you look, there is actually a lot of lore in there, like with the tensions of Kalamanda.

LaurgonMar 22, 20151 votes

Fair enough. It could be there was a lot of stuff I missed, since I didn't go through and read every issue front to back. What lore there was that didn't feel trashy did feel pretty forced. I could see supporting Riot bringing back some similar thing, now that the stories are (to me) by and large of better quality overall.

Tesla EffectMar 22, 20152 votes

I didnt like JoJ as well. The lore was all over the place. Kalamanda and the Dominion map should be scrapped and made into an Ascension mode set in Shurima. Also I like the new lore for Karma (Karma didnt change that much honestly), Trundle and Xerath. Cassiopeia didnt change that much, she is still Katarinas sister, the only thing that changed about her is the way she got cursed.

LaurgonMar 22, 20151 votes

Mechanically-wise - honestly yeah, I thought Ascension was way more interesting than Dominion. I can see their point about wanting to keep featured game modes temporary so they don't just get so stale, but I feel like that sort of contradicts the existence of Dominion and ARAM - not many people play Dominion at all, and ARAM is (at least in my opinion) notoriously and perhaps inherently unbalanced. Some of the game modes just weren't that interesting to me, which is fine since they were just experimental, but I for one would really support them keeping the more successful ones around as permanent options. For me, that'd be Ascension, regular One for All, URF (of course), and maybe even Doom Bots of Doom as another Co-op vs. AI option. I liked Legend of the Poro King as well, but I can see that just being a special winter event.

Buuuuuuut that doesn't have a whole lot to do with lore, so yeah.

Karma and Cassiopeia didn't really change that much. I feel like Xerath's origin story changed, but that doesn't necessarily mean his personality did. He can want to not be a slave and also want to push the bounds of magic at the same time. Just because it doesn't explicitly say so doesn't mean it can't happen.

I think the person that changed the most is Trundle, and I can see both sides of that debate.

RaxicorMar 23, 20152 votes

Did they make the Amumu video official lore? I thought it was just a music video made for the album; like an AU of sorts.

LaurgonMar 26, 20151 votes

I'm... honestly not sure. That's a good question.

Jeddy017Mar 26, 20153 votes

It was just a video made for the sake of releasing a video. The music team just wanted to do something for a character a lot of fans like. You shouldn't really worry about taking it as canon or not since the video was mostly a music team product.

LaurgonMar 27, 20151 votes

Makes sense!

WastelandKittahMar 25, 20152 votes

I'm surprised that the old lore-toxics haven't down-voted you into none existence and flamed you off of the bord yet,that's surprising as writing anything supporting the new lore in this place; is basicly dangrous/social suicide. most of the old lore people who will comment on it, are incapable of critical thinking and are just raging for the sake of raging.

so have an up-vote.

Though i will state i like the JoJ,it let us see more of the world outside of rift,and they should bring it back in some other form,as i enjoy reading lore about things such as bandle city and the feljord.

LaurgonMar 26, 20151 votes

Last time I checked this post, I was at -1, haha. So thanks to whoever brought me into the positive! Not that I care all that much (it was more funny than anything else), but it's good to know we're out there!

I think the JoJ was good in theory, but I wasn't a fan of the way they handled it. I definitely want more lore and more exploration of the world! I'm not arguing that part. I think I might have said this somewhere else, but I'd totally support some sort of JoJ coming back in some form, now that their writers (when they produce stuff) seem to have a better handle on not telling stories that are kind of lame.