Hypothetical/theorycrafting question: A champion with no offensive abilities that scales off AD

Laurgon·Jan 17, 2015·4 votes·1,335 views

I had a very nebulous idea for a champion awhile back — no flavor or character or anything yet, but something I thought was an interesting mechanical idea, though I'm not sure if it would work.

I was thinking, what if you had a champion — I assumed a support, though it could very well be some sort of utility marksman like Kalista — with a purely defensive kit? A shield, a heal (tentatively; see: nebulous), maybe a bit of CC and ally-buffing. No offensive abilities, BUT all their abilities scaled with AD instead of AP (I didn't consider things like bonus health or armor, but that could be interesting to play with).

It's entirely possible there's no way this would ever work. We've already seen how Riven's AD-scaling shield (among other things) has caused some balancing trouble. I know Leona's seen a bit of play here and there as a full tank with some AD mixed in, since her AP ratios are abysmal, but in this case I didn't have any real concept for if the character would be tanky, or an AD caster, or what.

Given how little detail I really have, people may not be able to have a solid discussion. But I'd love to hear any thoughts you might have, whether you think it's an interesting theory worth exploring further or that it's horribly broken and boring and that I'm a moron.

25 Comments

ZarxisMar 4, 20152 votes

If said champion has CC/healing/etc. that scales off of AD, then that champion will build AD. If that champion builds AD, his/her autoattacks will also scale up in power, in addition to his/her abilities. He/she would require some fine tuning to keep her in line with our current roster of almost-entirely AP/tanky supports. I like the idea (would be nice to have conventional AD supports, instead of having to resort to AD support Ashe or support Jarvan), but, again, that champion would have a sort of innate advantage over our current supports.

LaurgonMar 5, 20151 votes

That was almost exactly my line of reasoning. Help keep their autoattacks relevant as damage since they have none in their kit.

I agree it'd be really hard, if not impossible, to balance, though. I see your point about an innate advantage, although they could probably be dealt with without too much trouble by some cc/damaging abilities. Someone with some mobility (which is basically everyone these days) could probably kite them pretty well. I wasn't envisioning giving them much, if any, mobility. Guess I should have mentioned that since it's kind of an important utility stat.

CrazedPorcupineMar 5, 20152 votes

I think in order for this to work, you'd need to have the passive end up being something along these lines:

For every 1 point of Bonus AD, AS decreases by 1% and for every 1% of AS, total AD goes down by 5%.

This would help limit them to building AD in order to enhance their abilities, without making them overbearing as an ADC.

I know riot doesn't like abilities/items/passives that actually gimp you, but in order for certain types of mechanics to work, that's what needs to happen.

LaurgonMar 6, 20151 votes

Yeah, I can definitely see that. I hadn't actually thought about a passive at all, but one that inherently tries to balance their stats makes a lot of sense, since their scaling is completely different from how every other support scales.

DrukyulJan 17, 20151 votes

Good luck coming up with a champ theme that justifies why the defensive abilities scale with AD as opposed to HP/Armor/MR/CDR/whatever while at the same time justifying the lack of offensive abilities.

LaurgonJan 19, 20151 votes

You mean the flavor, or the mechanics? I was just talking about the mechanics.

acajubJan 18, 20151 votes

An interesting idea. The champion would have some sustained damage from its basic attacks and likely some burst of healing or shielding in its abilities. Stat-wise I think it would be fine, if a bit hard to balance. It could probably be played as an adc, but more interestingly, it could be played as a support allowing for some interesting combinations in bot lane. I think the biggest problem would be making the champion fun. The abilities would have to be engaging at least. Of course, this is all assuming the champion is ranged. A melee attack damage champion without any burst damage would be hard pressed to find a roll as anything but a tank or off-tank.

LaurgonJan 19, 20151 votes

That was kind of my thinking — after you use all your defensive abilities, you're still a threat because of your autoattacks. And yeah, I'd assumed ranged.

Doesn't seem like people are too interested in the idea, but I might try coming up with a kit anyway, just for kicks.

coeurloyalJan 19, 20151 votes

I don't think it would work because A) it sounds incredibly boring to play and B) aura skills are very toxic to league play according to Rito. It may be worth poking around the idea, but I would never want to play a champ without actives myself.

LaurgonJan 19, 20151 votes

I was thinking all the abilities would be active ones. I didn't envision putting any auras on.

HoffmiscJan 19, 20151 votes

I don't really think it would work, every champion including supports have some form of damage in their abilities for a good reason. All champions should have a way to defend themselves, and while heals and shields are defensive they need to be able to get a kill, if a champion is mechanically incapable of killing an enemy (excluding auto attacks) then it would be incredibly unsatisfying to play.

LaurgonJan 19, 20151 votes

Fair enough! I suppose I was thinking of some sort of support-marksman hybrid, where their main source of damage was autos. But yeah, I can see it potentially being unsatisfying.

HoffmiscJan 21, 20151 votes

It's not a terrible idea but for every ability to be non-damaging would be a little... eh.

Look at Kalista, technically she only has two damaging abilities (not counting the W passive).

LaurgonJan 27, 20151 votes

Haven't played Kalista much, but I've heard mixed responses to her. I'll have to play her more to see how she feels. On a support, though, would damaging abilities really be as important?

HoffmiscJan 28, 20151 votes

Lulu only has two damaging abilities(excluding her passive), Janna only has two, Soraka has two, and so on and so forth.

As long as they have 1 damaging ability and can contribute to their team I think anything is possible, in my opinion anyways.

LaurgonMar 3, 20151 votes

Worth considering, for sure. Maybe something like Karma's empowered E, which is a shield but has a little burst of damage around it when it goes off.

HoffmiscMar 3, 20151 votes

Speaking of only 1 damaging ability, Bard. (Minus the passive of course)

LaurgonMar 4, 20151 votes

True enough, true enough. He seems really unusual in terms of playstyle, but I'm pretty excited to see how he'll turn out.

HoffmiscMar 4, 20151 votes

He's kinda weak in my opinion. Played him on the PBE, I love his kit but his W is so useless late game.

LaurgonMar 5, 20151 votes

Well, he's not out yet, maybe they'll still keep tweaking him for a bit. Does he tend to get tankier or squishier? I'm not sure we really have a dedicated cc mage, except for maybe Xerath.

HoffmiscMar 5, 20151 votes

He's generally squishy from my experiences, he isn't really that dedicated to CC.

JustMyBassCannonJan 28, 20151 votes

Well, if none of the abilities are directly offensive, it would pretty much have to be either a tank or support. The problem, though, is that tanks would have to choose between their AD-scaling abilities or their defensive stats, and supports would have to choose between their AD-scaling abilities or utility items (most of which have AP or defensive stats).

Or, I suppose you could theoretically have the world's hardest-to-kill Marksman, or one of the only bruisers in the game that doesn't need to build defensive items.

LaurgonMar 3, 20151 votes

Yeah, that's a really good point, about the utility scaling. I'd envisioned them being a tank-support hybrid, a bit like Braum or Leona, because their purely defensive kit would probably make a solo lane really hard. I feel like a really hard to kill marksman would be pretty frustrating to play against, though.

DoFrJan 28, 20151 votes

hmm...or something like damage reduction like urgot's passive? you know it could be a Tanky marksman, i would love such thing should be named "bla bla bla, the sentry guard"

LaurgonMar 3, 20151 votes

Yeah, perhaps! Was trying to think of other defensive abilities to use as examples and sort of drew a blank. Damage reduction might not feel too good for the people playing against them, but it might still be worth considering (see: totally not a game designer, I'm just spitballing ideas here).