City-State Monarchy, a hypothetical approach

TenshouSNK··1 votes·1,153 views

Hello guys, I have a lore based question, specifically about Demacia's monarchy. Everything I will ask is pure theory and hypothetical but I take into consideration current lore and stuff etc. IF Quinn actually were to become a future Queen assuming a relationship between J4 is happening behind the curtains that we do not know of. I am talking about legit stuff here not some fanfic. Will she be able to compete with all those other high class noble women that she will encounter on a daily basis in the kingdom? I mean politics and such, seeing she comes from a middle class peasant farmer family etc. Intelligence wise can she control and rule the nobles who probably would be against the idea of a commoner Queen? How will it even work out if it happens? A scout who has always spent their time on foot be able to adapt to the royalty chair of ruling? I can't picture it but is it possible from a woman like Quinn? And if she continued scouting as a Queen, wouldn't it be annoying to have soldiers following you around? Lol.

5 Comments

Warlord Dienekes6 votes

Alright, well, total honesty? I don't give a crap about your little ship there. But I'll tell you what I do give a crap about, medieval and ancient law codes.

So, the theory of having a commoner become a queen sounds like some crappy self-insert fanfic of an idea, but it actually happened several times. Hell, the great Suleiman the Magnificent married a slave prostitute, Emperor Justinian married Theodora who's interesting life before becoming empress involved being a wool spinner, a dancer, a prostitute, an actress, and a paid live-in woman for at least 2 other aristocrats. And let me tell you Theodora was brilliant, she maneuvered the political system as adeptly if not better than her husband.

Then if you want to get into what we think of as pure medieval cultures you'll find at the tail end of the middle ages Edward IV who married Elizabeth Woodville, the daughter of a landed knight. But you really wont find all that many. And here's why: the marriage of a king was an immensely political affair, it had to strengthen the power of the crown in some way, and a commoner doesn't do that. The general rules of thumb: if the ruler is strong enough by himself that he doesn't need to have his marriage be political he could marry anyone he likes. It's still not advised, but he could. But, for the vast majority of medieval history other political families can always be nearly as powerful as the ruler and would therefore need to be controlled.

But that's with kingdoms. Demacia (at least originally) is a City-State. There we have different rules apply. For instance, since city-states are a lot smaller, it is far more likely that the central authority, be they king or not, has less to fear of giant political rivals. In fact, it's unlikely for city-states to even have a rigorously strict separation between noble and commoner and ruler. Not that these distinctions didn't exist, but, there tended to be some leniency of people rising or lowering themselves up and down the political hierarchy.

With exceptions of course, slaves in many city-states remained slaves, Sparta was known for basically only allowing downward mobility and not upward. But at the same time there were only 3 steps in their social hierarchy to begin with.

And then we just get to the weird as hell exceptions that make no sense but they just happened. History shows us anything is possible, like a Joan of Arc figure, who was the daughter of a tax collector and farmer, yet somehow became the commander of a medieval army. It makes no sense, but strange things happen.

As to whether or not Quinn could thrive in a political environment, that would largely depend on her temperament and how cutthroat Demacian court is. I somehow doubt that they'll straight kill her, but if Demacia does have powerful families that need to be finessed into working with the throne and if she is incapable of showing proper etiquette and making deals then she will be a failure as a queen. Assuming, of course, J4 doesn't handle all of that directly himself. In which case the worst Quinn could do is say something wrong to the wrong fellow and be required to make a public show of affection and apology. From what little I know about Quinn, I doubt she would be a Theodora. She might be a passable somewhat uncouth queen that would pass on to obscurity in the next few generations. With maybe commoners remembering her as some folk hero who raised herself to nobility, and nobles remembering her for being somewhat incompetent and a reminder why they don't usually do that.

Unless, she did something truly amazing to get herself remembered. If she leads an army and wins some great victory. Or organizes the best spy ring in Demacia. Or, uses her scouting skills to actively hunt down J4's political opponents within the city. Then she'll be remembered as either good or evil, depending on her methods and her successes.

TenshouSNK1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Wh67nxi0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-04T15:31:22.883+0000)

Alright, well, total honesty? I don't give a crap about your little ship there. But I'll tell you what I do give a crap about, medieval and ancient law codes.

So, the theory of having a commoner become a queen sounds like some crappy self-insert fanfic of an idea, but it actually happened several times. Hell, the great Suleiman the Magnificent married a slave prostitute, Emperor Justinian married Theodora who's interesting life before becoming empress involved being a wool spinner, a dancer, a prostitute, an actress, and a paid live-in woman for at least 2 other aristocrats. And let me tell you Theodora was brilliant, she maneuvered the political system as adeptly if not better than her husband.

Then if you want to get into what we think of as pure medieval cultures you'll find at the tail end of the middle ages Edward IV who married Elizabeth Woodville, the daughter of a landed knight. But you really wont find all that many. And here's why: the marriage of a king was an immensely political affair, it had to strengthen the power of the crown in some way, and a commoner doesn't do that. The general rules of thumb: if the ruler is strong enough by himself that he doesn't need to have his marriage be political he could marry anyone he likes. It's still not advised, but he could. But, for the vast majority of medieval history other political families can always be nearly as powerful as the ruler and would therefore need to be controlled.

But that's with kingdoms. Demacia (at least originally) is a City-State. There we have different rules apply. For instance, since city-states are a lot smaller, it is far more likely that the central authority, be they king or not, has less to fear of giant political rivals. In fact, it's unlikely for city-states to even have a rigorously strict separation between noble and commoner and ruler. Not that these distinctions didn't exist, but, there tended to be some leniency of people rising or lowering themselves up and down the political hierarchy.

With exceptions of course, slaves in many city-states remained slaves, Sparta was known for basically only allowing downward mobility and not upward. But at the same time there were only 3 steps in their social hierarchy to begin with.

And then we just get to the weird as hell exceptions that make no sense but they just happened. History shows us anything is possible, like a Joan of Arc figure, who was the daughter of a tax collector and farmer, yet somehow became the commander of a medieval army. It makes no sense, but strange things happen.

As to whether or not Quinn could thrive in a political environment, that would largely depend on her temperament and how cutthroat Demacian court is. I somehow doubt that they'll straight kill her, but if Demacia does have powerful families that need to be finessed into working with the throne and if she is incapable of showing proper etiquette and making deals then she will be a failure as a queen. Assuming, of course, J4 doesn't handle all of that directly himself. In which case the worst Quinn could do is say something wrong to the wrong fellow and be required to make a public show of affection and apology. From what little I know about Quinn, I doubt she would be a Theodora. She might be a passable somewhat uncouth queen that would pass on to obscurity in the next few generations. With maybe commoners remembering her as some folk hero who raised herself to nobility, and nobles remembering her for being somewhat incompetent and a reminder why they don't usually do that.

Unless, she did something truly amazing to get herself remembered. If she leads an army and wins some great victory. Or organizes the best spy ring in Demacia. Or, uses her scouting skills to actively hunt down J4's political opponents within the city. Then she'll be remembered as either good or evil, depending on her methods and her successes.

So what about competing with other noble women. Does she have that witts to handle and control those high class noble women that will always be trying to exploit her? And these other noble women won't be happy being ordered around by a peasant no? Also you talk about leading an army to victory, I doubt Quinn has the experience to command an army. Unless you think otherwise.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Competing for what? There's a lot of awesome fiction with the women behind the throne pulling the strings and manipulating people to do what they want, but honestly the evidence for this is limited to a few very powerful women throughout history.

Now, Demacia seems less overtly sexist than real world medieval cultures. Which is good. But that still leaves the question what do you expect the queen consort to be doing? Because usually that's just existing, being nice to foreign dignitaries, and making babies. The really intelligent ones also help with finances, or find methods to support their husband, but policy is dictated by the actual king. Sometimes when a king leaves to go on campaign if the queen is trusted she takes over the rule in his stead. But this is the exception, usually, it's a high advisor, chancellor, younger brother, or trusted friend.

Whether Quinn would be good at being, essentially, J4s arm candy is up to the writers. I have no idea what Quinn's personality is. Less the women she would have to worry about politically important individuals each of which should have their own individual reaction to whatever she does or says. Mostly she'll be ordering around servants, if she does give a command to the elite some may or may not respect her position as granted by the king. But usually her job will be just to be nice and make people feel respected. Bad kings (and queens) command their lords to do things they don't want or can't do. Good ones make deals, offering distinction and titles for services. If Quinn gives a lord a title why would they hate her? If Quinn makes a command a lord doesn't want to follow would it matter if she was a fellow noble or not?

I threw in leading an army simply because I know she's a soldier, and I know of several soldiers and knights who eventually became leaders of mercenary bands, essentially, lower generals. Some even became the highest generals to emperors. If Quinn is clever enough to pick up how armies work during her time being a part of one she could make that transition.

TenshouSNK1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Wh67nxi0,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-05T02:14:35.228+0000)

Competing for what? There's a lot of awesome fiction with the women behind the throne pulling the strings and manipulating people to do what they want, but honestly the evidence for this is limited to a few very powerful women throughout history.

Now, Demacia seems less overtly sexist than real world medieval cultures. Which is good. But that still leaves the question what do you expect the queen consort to be doing? Because usually that's just existing, being nice to foreign dignitaries, and making babies. The really intelligent ones also help with finances, or find methods to support their husband, but policy is dictated by the actual king. Sometimes when a king leaves to go on campaign if the queen is trusted she takes over the rule in his stead. But this is the exception, usually, it's a high advisor, chancellor, younger brother, or trusted friend.

Whether Quinn would be good at being, essentially, J4s arm candy is up to the writers. I have no idea what Quinn's personality is. Less the women she would have to worry about politically important individuals each of which should have their own individual reaction to whatever she does or says. Mostly she'll be ordering around servants, if she does give a command to the elite some may or may not respect her position as granted by the king. But usually her job will be just to be nice and make people feel respected. Bad kings (and queens) command their lords to do things they don't want or can't do. Good ones make deals, offering distinction and titles for services. If Quinn gives a lord a title why would they hate her? If Quinn makes a command a lord doesn't want to follow would it matter if she was a fellow noble or not?

I threw in leading an army simply because I know she's a soldier, and I know of several soldiers and knights who eventually became leaders of mercenary bands, essentially, lower generals. Some even became the highest generals to emperors. If Quinn is clever enough to pick up how armies work during her time being a part of one she could make that transition.

Firstly, I want to thank you for these intellectually detailed answers. I am having a better understanding of the political hierarchy of real world kingdom's and fictional city states.

  1. Do you think that judging by how young scout quinn is that she could learn to command armies and platoons of soldiers at her current age? Can she do it?

  2. wouldn't the noble women always be salty and disrespectful to the commoner? Even if treated with respect?

  3. public executions, is this something Quinn in your opinion would allow or hell would she watch one off given a chance?

  4. shyvana, will she remain the bodyguard of j4 and also have to protect Quinn too now? Would she be happy doing it? Bodyguard as in follow her around everywhere as she does with j4? And what would happen to the bird?

  5. what if jarvan v was born, would he be treated with respect or no since he has commoner blood?

Warlord Dienekes1 votes
  1. How smart is she? Since I don't think Riot has promoted her as having any special abilities besides owning a bird. Which, you know, woo. But besides that she's an elite scout, now, scouting takes a bit of intelligence, and information is what an army runs on. Could she become a commander of armies at her current age? First problem, I have no idea how old she is. But in any case, Alexander the Great led his first army at 16.

But that's Alexander the fucking Great. He is in the running for the greatest military mind in all of history. But, it was not unheard of for 18-25 to become generals, though usually they come from noble families who have trained their lives to be generals. But talent and genius do make the occasional mercenary leader rise to the top.

  1. Well, who cares? Gossiping women with little power to do anything about it aren't important. Now, what is more important are highly prominent nobles and foreign dignitaries. If Quinn can just not make them angry and declare war on Demacia, she's fine. What are disrespectful noble women going to do? Try to dethrone the Jarvan family? Unless they see their actual power base become unstable to the point that it makes more sense for them to rebel as opposed to just float along then nothing important is going to happen.

  2. I don't know what Quinn would find fun. But going by your generic medieval commoner, public executions were fun. You got a bit of a church service, generally people bring food, and you get to see someone die. That was a popular past time since literally forever. Hell, we have on record that a common past time that was enjoyed by all, even some kings, was to put cats in a sack and light the sack on fire. And this wasn't some small two-bit kingdom. This was France, the pinnacle of medieval culture. I have some doubts that Riot will show this aspect of human nature though.

  3. Generally official royal bodyguards also guard the queen yes. Whether Shyvana would do it happily I cannot say. I would assume Quinn could keep her bird, since, nobility is often allowed to have many strange hobbies. A bird is hardly an oddity. Going hawking was quite a well regarded hobby.

  4. That depends entirely on how good or bad J4 is as a ruler, and to a lesser extent Quinn is as a queen. Monarchic blood flows from the king. So regardless of Quinn's roots, their child together would be a legitimate king (note, there are specific places where this does not apply, I think medieval Russia had a rule against it. But that was specifically a Russian oddity). Whether the people would accept him as their ruler depends on how much they hate the current regime, and how tied to the position of ruler the current royal family is. If it's a new house, they're more likely to be displaced than an older established one. Though, as always, exceptions happen.

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