Why vayne is basically evil just as evil as those she hunts

Oakleaf Ranger·Mar 24, 2017·9 votes·1,504 views

SPOILERS FOR SUPERNATURAL IF NOT PAST SEASON 3 BELOW!!!!!!

Vayne's new lore is basically makes her into Gordon Walker. She became a hunter of monster/dark arts after a tragedy who is fueled by anger and vengeance. In her eyes the world is black and white just like Gordon. Your either evil or your not. She would kill Shyvana without a second thought like she did to Freya. Who shows evidence that your actions and way of life are what really define who you are. Thank you riot for finally making Vayne persona align with the majority of her player base. Hopefully Vayne's story ends the same as Gordon's and somehow translates the same effect in game. ;)

24 Comments

DeadTranniesMar 24, 20177 votes

lowkey vayne complaint thread -10/10 would not read again

Oakleaf RangerMar 25, 20173 votes

Ehh more of just a jab at them at the end. Gameplay wise I think Vayne handicaps the team who gets her. Maybe she will be out of commission at some point like Gangplank was except for idk...

permanently?

TheSaltyScourgeMar 26, 20172 votes

Vayne backstory representing her toxic playerbase.

MogarlMar 25, 20171 votes

I disagree, Vayne killing Shyvana would be justified. It's explained in Shyv's story monsters have a thirst for human blood. Shyv knows this, the monster she hunted knows this, ALL monsters know this, and Vayne knows this. Sure they may be able to control themselves around loved ones or amidst crowds of people even, but one mess up could have dire consequences. Vayne doesn't take the chance, a monster losing control isn't a possibility if they're dead.

Not saying that Vayne isn't ever prejudice in killing something that may have no chance of turning, but her ruthlessness does have cold reason behind it. Vayne's enjoyment is just a perk.

Oakleaf RangerMar 25, 20173 votes

Well that logic could easily be applied to humans. Most people are naturally selfish even from birth. People have bad thoughts all the time, obviously we don't act on them for multiple reasons. Even ignoring that point and assuming all humans are law abiding and not a safety concern to those around them. Don't sentient creatures/being that aren't humans have the right to live among as others until proven dangerous. As far as we know Shyvana can do it, why cant others?

MogarlMar 25, 20171 votes

I don't personally disagree with you. I just want to make it clear that I'm playing devil's advocate, and giving a non-evil explanation.

You're aware of what human is. We're pink, squishy, and without some kind of tool or serious martial arts training humans are mostly harmless. An exception to this is mages they are essentially natural weapons and if they ever lose control, boom, no more city square. What else does Vayne hunt besides monsters? Mages. How many times did Lux blind Garen with light? (Garen's story) What if her magic was something more potent? Garen could have died as a child.

"Don't sentient creatures/being that aren't humans have the right to live among as others until proven dangerous." This thought would be detrimental to Vayne. It would slow her down every time she was killing something/someone. This is why Vayne had to kill Frey, she couldn't have ever done her job again if she allowed herself to think there was another option.

Oakleaf RangerMar 25, 20171 votes

Well with how readily available tools are to humans combined with our creativity and ability to create tools when none are readily available. I don't see that being an issue for humans to do harm to others, purposely or accidentally. Plus vayne hunts users of the dark arts not necessarily just all magic users. However her definition of the dark arts is probably very strict. One sniff or hint of dark magic is probably good enough reason for vayne end someone right then and there no if, ands, or buts. I definitely agree that would slow her down if she allowed herself to think like that, but that doesn't justify her beliefs or way of doing things. To be clear I'm not saying the writers did a bad job because I think she is evil now or that they were wrong for how they changed her new lore. I just want to point out the traits of her character that leads me to think she is evil. Which is good, otherwise stories and lore would be boring if everyone just lived happily ever after with no conflicts ever. I personally prefer and enjoy "villains" over heroes. With my ultimate end goal being prove that vayne has joined their ranks even if she primarily hunts those associated with that side. But why do I want to do this? So I can I point at vayne mains/players say and EVILLLL (insert spongebob meme). Vaynes brand of evil doesn't really fit my tastes though tbh. I usually prefer my villains to be very aware of their actions and the consequences they create instead of delusional like I think Vayne is. But that's very subjective and while her brand of evil isn't to my taste it doesn't mean she wasn't written well or very appealling to someone else.

MogarlMar 26, 20171 votes

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Well with how readily available tools are to humans combined with our creativity and ability to create tools when none are readily available. I don't see that being an issue for humans to do harm to others, purposely or accidentally.

Humans lack fangs or claws (and the primal bloodlust Shyvana is shown to have), and excluding concealed weapons there's a limit to the damage one person can cause before they regain control of their emotions. Sure a person that really wants to cause some damage can take a tool from somewhere else, but humans don't have swords attached to their hands wherever they go. Your average human can be safely subdued by other self aware humans if they go out of control.

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I definitely agree that would slow her down if she allowed herself to think like that, but that doesn't justify her beliefs or way of doing things.

Bear in mind that it's not just Vayne's way of doing things, or her beliefs. Garen has the same black and white morality. That black and white morality is what most of Demacia goes by.

""Garen kept his gaze fixed on the road ahead. “They don’t want understanding,” he said at last. “They don’t need it.” “How can you say that?” “We live in a world that does not allow for such nuances, Lux. Demacia is beset on all sides by terrible foes; savage tribes in the north, a rapacious empire in the east and the power of dark mages who threaten the very fabric of our realm. We deal in absolutes by necessity. Allowing doubt to cloud our judgement leaves us vulnerable. And I cannot allow us to become vulnerable.” “Even at such a cost?” “Even so,” agreed Garen. “It’s is why I do what I do.” “For Demacia?” “For Demacia,” said Garen.""

{quoted}

To be clear I'm not saying the writers did a bad job because I think she is evil now or that they were wrong for how they changed her new lore. I just want to point out the traits of her character that leads me to think she is evil. Which is good, otherwise stories and lore would be boring if everyone just lived happily ever after with no conflicts ever.

I disagree with your sentiment of her being evil now. Vayne hunts the creatures of the night that would do to others what was done to her. She happens to enjoy it, but she can still justify her actions as protecting others. She isn't a trophy hunter just a thanatos junkie.

Evil isn't necessary for conflict; just a difference in beliefs, desires, or needs. People tend to foolishly tag one side as good and one side as evil even when neither is true for either.

{quoted}

I personally prefer and enjoy "villains" over heroes. With my ultimate end goal being prove that vayne has joined their ranks even if she primarily hunts those associated with that side. But why do I want to do this? So I can I point at vayne mains/players say and EVILLLL (insert spongebob meme). Vaynes brand of evil doesn't really fit my tastes though tbh. I usually prefer my villains to be very aware of their actions and the consequences they create instead of delusional like I think Vayne is. But that's very subjective and while her brand of evil isn't to my taste it doesn't mean she wasn't written well or very appealling to someone else.

It takes the value out of any discussion with you if you already have your desired outcome decided. Wanting to say a champion is evil so you can call them a villain is also a pretty shallow reason to be involved in lore discussion (especially if it's just for a shit meme that half of those people won't even know what you're talking about.).

Oakleaf RangerMar 26, 20171 votes

Humans are very much capable of having blood lust for plenty of reasons. Out of necessity, emotional, personal belief, etc... The means and methods are also plentiful themselves, just having enough raw strength and our hands are more than capable of bringing harm to others. I mean if you really need a real world example look at prisoners how they have been able to turn almost anything heck probably everything into a weapon. Or look at Vlad as well. His act of murder would be considered unreasonable by any rational person that has morals. Humans are able to do harm to others in secret with concealed weapons ranking up there as a common means to do it as you mentioned. Doing harm to others doesn't have to be a public affair. Plus even if you subdue someone who is clearly attempting or has done harm to others, what's the point if they are already harmed or killed someone before they were stopped. The damage is irreversible (at least by normal means) At that point with this line of thinking all humans are deemed dangerous and should either be isolated or killed. Now substitute the word humans with monsters and you basically summed up Vayne's line of thinking. She is essentially killing without discrimination. I'm not willy nilly throwing this tag on her without good reason. Demacia is rocking the ends justify the means mentality. Is it effective and needed out of necessity? Probably but it also shows that they aren't as virtuous and righteous as they like to claim they are. While depending on their actions can be seen as evil. Proving Vayne is evil is my goal but you are wrong to assume that I'm not open minded or capable of having my opinion swayed or changed about her. Does it really matter what my reasons are as long as I approach it in rational and unbiased manner?

MogarlMar 26, 20171 votes

Just a recommendation here, but you should make an attempt to break up your posts into paragraphs. It would make them infinitely easier to read.

You're missing a point here, prisoners who make weapons aren't what I'm talking about. They're deliberately making tools to do harm over a period of time. They aren't lashing out with some natural ability to do harm. Furthermore in most cases those prisoners have been nurtured into that state. Nature vs. Nurture is an important part of this argument.

Humans do not naturally have bloodlust, this is common knowledge. In exterminating humans for bloodlust the majority of deaths would be a mistake. On top of this unarmed humans are mostly harmless.

Monsters DO normally have bloodlust, this is also common knowledge. In exterminating monsters for bloodlust the minority of deaths would be a mistake. On top of this unarmed monsters are never unarmed.

Vayne doesn't seem evil to me, she doesn't cause undue suffering in monsters. She put Frey down with one bolt, and she ended her fight with the shapeshifter as quickly as she could. She didn't gloat over either of these kills, and simply did them as something that had to be done. The only kill she's gloated over, and done more than just kill as quickly as possible is the woman in the colour story.

The only monster we've seen her torment is the one that turned herself into a shapeshifter and then changed someone else that loved her, and ruined their life by turning them into a monster. These being the people Vayne takes her own personal vengeance out on.

Vayne is definitely an anti-hero not a villain, and though subjectively you can call some of Vayne's kills evil it's not what defines her.

Vayne kills Frey who admits to being corrupted by a curse, E-V-I-L. Ryze condemns a small village to death, it's for the greater good.

Oakleaf RangerMar 26, 20171 votes

I do my posts mobile or on computer so as you can guess my posting tools are more limited when doing mobile. I think your missing the point. People are born selfish which isn't necessarily evil but can easily lead to becoming evil/violent/sinister. If anything it is do to society that we are all not more selfish people because we learn that being purely selfish isn't a good way to live.

Why does having to be born mystically gifted have to be requirement to do harm? I don't think you understand when I say that humans are dangerous in that we can turn or use anything as a weapon. Farming tools that aren't designed for killing can be used as weapons, fire can be a weapon, or a rock I pick up can be a weapon. The ability for humans to be swayed to take violent action is not difficult. Just as humans can learn to be good or bad, so can monsters/creatures. Even if the majority of said creatures are malicious towards humans, killing them all indiscriminately would be wrong. This where the means justify the ends mentality comes in. Yes this way of thinking is effective at keeping humans safe but is it morally acceptable though? I think not.

monsters/creatures don't really care whether vayne kills them slowly or quickly since dying an early death sucks no matter what. Your not gonna see any creatures going thx for killing me quickly. Getting killed is not on any rational healthy creatures do list.

Ryze gave that village(village leader) plenty of time to prepare his community to find another means of survival without relying on the rune they possessed. Instead he became drunk with power and a shell of his former self because of it. Ryze leaving that rune with him would basically be lol leaving a crazy person with a armed nuclear weapon. The leader of that village condemned his village to death, not Ryze. Which I'm not saying is a pure and righteous person ( could have at least stayed a bit to help them out).

As far as we know, Freya didn't use the dark arts to harm humans per say, but against those who would use the dark arts with evil and bad conquences for those in their way or just the general population.

The line between anti hero and villain is pretty thin, a line I think Vayne crossed or is happily stepping past it when it suits her purposes.

MogarlMar 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I do my posts mobile or on computer so as you can guess my posting tools are more limited when doing mobile.

Fair enough I figured this might be the case but figured I'd ask apologies if it came across as offensive, I was simply having difficulty reading your posts.

I think your missing the point. People are born selfish which isn't necessarily evil but can easily lead to becoming evil/violent/sinister. If anything it is do to society that we are all not more selfish people because we learn that being purely selfish isn't a good way to live.

I don't think we're going to be able to come to an agreement here, it's simply a matter of differing thoughts.

Why does having to be born mystically gifted have to be requirement to do harm?

You've read Shyv's story right? http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/shyvana-color-story/ hard as she may try she has serious issues with monstrous instincts. They aren't just violent tendencies, she wants human blood.

Oakleaf RangerMar 26, 20171 votes

I think it's more of the need to hunt with humans being the typical go to choice for creatures than necessarily it having to be human blood. No one is born perfect and just like everyone else growing up your going to make mistakes along the way (hopefully nothing crazy irreversible bad) along with her father (parent) to help guide her in life. Then you look at Vlad who without powers or special training took like life without a rational reason. You don't need powers to be a threat to others but they do make it easier.

MogarlMar 26, 20171 votes

first part is a reply to parts of the second half of your last post, was going into a game and had to close my browser before I was able to finish my reply.

They might, the man in Vayne's colour story probably would prefer a quick death, seeing as how he had lost his humanity. If he was cool with turning into a horrible beast he probably wouldn't have run away.

The case of Vayne killing Frey is touchy, but at the very least not evil. If Vayne would have let Frey live then it would have been the same as saying that it was ok that she was cursed. Reading it again I do see that Frey made the decision to turn into a wolf. It wasn't a reflexive reaction she had no control over, but she still did it in a fight against a cultist with a mace she turned into a giant wolf and ripped the cultist's throat out.

Frey showed that she was willing to give up her humanity for strength. Which in Vayne's black and white morality book, leaves her no better than the monsters they hunted.

I think there's a piece of information we're lacking in this conversation. What are the origins of these instincts in monsters? Because as we saw in her bio Shyv's dad was pretty chill, and we know from the single line in galio's update page that Demacians at some point rode Wyverns.

In reality we don't know the full reaction Vayne would have to someone like Shyv if she were forced to think about what she was doing, and we've only see her kill three types of things.

Frey - Self-cursed shapeshifter Werebug - cursed by bride into bug monster Widow Shapeshifter - cursed her husband into a bug monster, probably to be eaten.

I don't think Vayne put any extra suffering into the deaths of those first two, and the widow deserved it.

Oakleaf RangerMar 27, 20171 votes

As vayne put it, "humans can be unpredictable when they are scared."

After being bitten its assumed that he ran away from his bride/wife, at the very least scared and unaware of what exactly is happening to him. I wasn't given the impression that he was aware of what was happening to him and if he did, was just too traumatized to try and fix it before it was too late. By the time Vayne had tracked him down, he was already far too mutated that he was no longer was the same person he used to be. At that point the only thing Vayne could for him was kill him. His mutated form seemed pretty okay and happy to get ready to take a bite out of Vayne. Honestly cant say what he want if Vayne had caught up before he transformed to much. Assuming Vayne didn't just kill him right then and there she might have been able to cure him. If not well whatever he would wanted it wouldn't have matter since Vayne would have killed him. To be clear, Freya wasn't a shape shifter like the bride. She took on some kind wolf curse, one of benefits being she could alter her form to that of a wolf creature. What made Vayne so villainous when she kill Freya was that

She killed Freya almost immediately after she just saved her
She killed her as she was explaining herself without even bothering to hear her out, the same person who Vayne had considered to be a mother figure after losing her real mom.
She transformed specifically to save Vayne from her attacker
She smiled afterwards, which is pretty messed up thing to do after reading the previous points

That's pretty evil right there. Also unlike Shyvana, her dad has plenty of time to mature and learn control over his instinctive nature instead of being driven by them. At the very least more time than Shyvana has.

MogarlMar 27, 20171 votes

it's deceptive the way you presented 1-4, Vayne wasn't smiling over Frey's death. She had already pushed Frey out of her mind, and was thinking of the hunt. Let's keep in mind that she was apparently badly injured, and after killing Frey she's all ready to go back to the hunt and think of other things. I don't believe Vayne was nearly as unaffected as the lore let's us believe.

Oakleaf RangerMar 27, 20171 votes

This was also the first time she had smiled since her parents deaths. Killing Freya was in a way a symbol of Vayne eliminating her remaining humanity. From there on out, vayne became a full fledged stone cold bitch.

MogarlMar 27, 20171 votes

I'll agree with this point. Frey's death was a symbol that Vayne could kill them all.

Oakleaf RangerMar 28, 20171 votes

But should they all die? I just find it to be very evilly that vayne smiled for the first time since her parents deaths after killing Freya when you think about the points I made. Then I think back to ththe conversation she had with the bride monster. Vayne is aware that creatures (at least the sentient ones) have humanizing traits. To think that Vayne is aware of this but still thinks all creatures must die is pretty villainous.

MogarlMar 28, 20171 votes

I still think villainous is the wrong word. I agree that it is far from right, but Vayne would still be doing it regardless of whether she enjoyed it or not. The real test is if Vayne would hunt down a family of magical creatures that avoided humans. So far everyone she's killed either made a choice that made them a target, lost their humanity, or was preying on humans.

Oakleaf RangerMar 28, 20171 votes

Freya didn't do anything that made her a threat to humans (law abiding run of mill humans). Vayne just saw dark magic and was like okay time to die. Yah that would settle the argument, if we ever saw something like that lore wise. To really convince me though it would have to be creatures that are known or capable of being threats to humans though. With these specific creatures(s) purposely choosing to avoid conflict with humans or some attempt of coexistence. Even if its just we don't mess you and you don't mess with us relationship. With Vayne making some sort of conscious decision to leave them be. As of now though everything is pointing towards her not being the kind of person to do that. Not it isn't possible just unlikely.

NA DarklarikMar 25, 20171 votes

I personally disliked her story. It was bland and made her one dimension zealous as hell. Boring, bland, unoriginal, and one dimensional. 1/10 hate for Vayne increased. Shes as inhuman as Jhin Jhin .