Viktor VS Jayce - which one is the villain?

The Anagram King··38 votes·7,822 views

It's been a question asked about rival figureheads since time immemorial; since opposing leaders first climbed to the top of their respective mountains and stared menacingly at one another from the peaks. Beneath them, their devout: Followers, fans, lovers, worshippers - all, en-masse, insisting the cause their idol works toward is a just one. Such a dynamic can not last, and it is only a matter of time before one side is culled to make room for the other.

And now: Viktor and Jayce - two idealists set to follow in the footsteps of those that came before them. One side demanding progress, the other demanding pause. Worshippers, lovers, fans and followers. History seems poised to repeat.

But it's never quite so cut-and-dry, is it?

My opinion? Well, we'll get to that. But first... let's talk about the two characters involved in this shallowly-explored rivalry. Viktor.... and Jayce.

Viktor Viktor is an unparalleled genius, equalled by none in his designs and machinations. Around him, fashion the beginnings of a cult devoted to his vision: A glorious evolution, the next step in humanity. He spends his days and nights obsessively working toward a future he sees as inevitable. Slowly, steadily, surely - his influence grows. His followers gain traction within Zaunite society. Indeed, even now, entire nations see the merit in his designs; albeit, if only flawed knock-offs, such as those made by Pididly. Power? Intelligence? Immortality? Who could resist?

The Machine Herald, that's what they call him: The Herald of a new age. But not everyone agrees with the future that Viktor visualises as he tinkers away in his now sprawling complex. There are those who look at Viktor's acolytes and imagine servitude, dependence, hopelessness. After all, what does the discarding of one's body say for those who believe in its status as a sacred icon? What does that say of their deities? Their lives up until this very point?

Are they nothing but an outdated model, waiting to be converted into something deemed more beneficial to society? Will they retain their free will? And even if they do, will they still be themselves - or will they be something... else?

#Enter the Jayce:

Jayce When Jayce's story begins he is promising researcher tasked by the Piltovian government to study an unassuming crystal. Apparently, alone. This leads credence to a whole list of potential conspiracy theories, but for now, we'll stick to the story, as told.

Jayce discovers through preliminary tests that the crystal is some kind of power conduit. An unprecedented potential source of energy. At this point, Jayce does what he does best: He gabs. With spectacular results; In short time, Jayce's research project is the talk of the city. Heck, more than the city - it's the talk of entire nations. In no time flat, Jayce has become a pseudo-celebrity. Charming, witty, working on a project that could very well change the way the world thinks about energy for decades to come - who wouldn't love the young researcher?

One fateful day, Jayce responds to a knock on his door to find Viktor, the Machine Herald, standing upon his doorstep. The Herald asserts that he has heard of the crystal's supposed potential; and requests a partnership be formed between the two. Unfortunately, the transhuman inventor makes the mistake of dropping the words 'human evolution' into the conversation; and whether instantly, or over an extended period, Jayce rejects the Herald's offer.

Viktor refuses to take no for an answer, however, and opts to simply take the crystal; "incinerating the lab's meagre security force" in the process.

Despite petitioning for assistance from the Piltovian government, Jayce is left without the means or support to launch a retaliatory strike upon the Zaunite researcher; and so Jayce sets to work upon creating his own means of resecuring the legacy so callously stolen from him. Time passes, and Jayce... creates a weapon.

Not just any weapon, but a siege weapon; capable of launching a one-man assault on Viktor's compound. His newly-designed Mercury Cannon now in hand, Jayce swats aside Viktor's acolytes, surpasses the Herald's defenses, defeats Viktor and destroys the crystal that had been stolen from him. Mission apparently a failure, Jayce returns home to Piltover, without the crystal he set out to re-secure, only to be glorified as a hero by those who refused to support him in his retaliatory effort.

Somebody frames him "The Defender Of Tomorrow" - and the name sticks.



There's something fundamentally wrong with Jayce's story. The budding researcher boasts no research team, no support and, by the end, no crystal. Assuming his story is a correct recount of recent events, Jayce has failed in two successive tasks - the first set by his government; the second an attempt to redeem himself and secure his future legacy as a researcher.

In spite of this, Jayce is labelled a hero by his city. Indeed, the city's "Defender."

Wit, charm, athleticism and no need to fall back on a legacy that he would have otherwise needed to build up as a researcher. Jayce has reached a level of stardom and success that he may have never achieved through traditional methods or job descriptions. He is a Hero. An** Idol**. A contrast to Viktor; an alternative. And, if you believe the story, somebody capable of smacking Viktor around whenever the Machine Herald steps out of line.

But does this make Jayce a villain? Not by a longshot - it's not enough. Does it make him a liar? Still, maybe no. Were people so paranoid of Viktor that destroying revolutionary power sources and beating up the Herald was met with city-wide approval? Apparently so. But so what?

So what if Viktor got his glorious machine butt handed to him for stealing government tech? So what if his vision was hindered - or even rejected - by the heroics of a fledgeling hero? Piltovian pride beats out Zaunite brutishness every single time - even look at our guy with the hammer who beat up Viktor!

Jayce** : "Trust me: if we're smart, Piltover can stand strong against any threat. Hey, I'm living proof."**



Jayce, Mascot of Piltover

There is a very vocal community amongst the lore enthusiasts that insists that Jayce is the villain of the pair. A glory-bound conman with a penchant for orchestrating heroics and destroying evidence. But this take on events would not support the admittedly out-of-place hero-worship that Jayce experiences at the conclusion of his lore.

But put yourselves in the shoes of the Piltovian government for a moment. For decades, your society has been a shining beacon of technology and progress. But in one fell swoop, Zaun realises its potential and simultaneously invalidates everything you stand for. Shirking greater empathy and, instead, focusing on unbridled scientific progress, Zaun makes revolutionary invention after revolutionary invention. Their research teams are conscripted into undeniably successful war efforts; their celebrities pioneer the rights of sentient golems - new life - who are then free to pursue their own Zaunite-inspired goals; Deceased humans are brought back to life with their minds fully intact, though their bodies scarred and nightmarish; and then... from the ashes of a dog-eat-dog society rises a man who brings with him the promise of a new civilisation. One that discards everything Piltover stands for, in favour of what he deems as perfection.

What if the Piltovian government needed to make a hero to stay relevant?

Piltover makes gadgets. Piltover makes luxuries. In comparison to Zaun, it is as a child - unable to reach its potential, for fear of alienating its own populace.

And so the highest officials Piltovian government deliberated until they made a decision. A decision to unify the minds and spirits of their citizens. To create a symbol through which they might convince their population to rally in the Piltovian name; and against the unethical madness of the Zaunites.

#Re-Enter the Jayce:

A promising celebrity in the making. The man has flair, charisma and a sharp wit. He has no personal achievements to speak of, but maintains the potential to one day aspire to something great. In Jayce, if one really tried, they might see the makings of a hero. A hero of Piltover.

Jayce is approached by city officials. Appealing to his desire for greater things, the man is given a choice: To wade through a life of unrecognised mediocrity, or to unify the people of Piltover as one as a symbol of Piltovian excellence. The former is simply not an option to the aspiring researcher, and Jayce is entered into a research agreement with Viktor, who is studying the effects of a revolutionary new crystal procured by the Piltovian government.

The two, as a unit, make swift progress with the crystal and find its applications to be very nearly limitless. But Viktor's endless rhetoric involving the Glorious Evolution, as he so puts it, is unnerving. Weapons, cultists - Viktor does not simply have human augmentation on the mind, and Jayce relays his concerns to the Piltovian officials that Viktor may attempt to claim the crystal as his own.

Time passes and the Piltovian officials instructs Jayce to take the crystal and end the agreement. Viktor, however, is reluctant to be cut out of a partnership that was promised to benefit both parties. In a swift act of focused destruction, Viktor frees the crystal from its containment, swats Jayce aside and returns to Zaun.

Jayce falls into a state of depression - his legacy, just like Viktor's - snatched away from him. What little remains of their collaboration, Jayce secures for the Piltovian government. Amongst the remnants; a prototypical design for a siege weapon potentially capable of being used by just one man.

Once more, Jayce is approached by city officials. They play upon his frustrations, his paranoia; Viktor has stolen everything from him - from Piltover - and now the very world, itself, could be at risk due to his dark machinations. The crystal must be either re-secured, or destroyed; but they cannot risk outright war with Zaun.

Jayce: "We can't just let him get away with this!"

Convinced by officials that this is a one-man job that only a man who has been inside the Machine Herald's compound can complete, Jayce builds upon the designs he secures, creating a masterwork siege weapon that he would coin the Mercury Cannon. He trains. He tests. He strikes.

The compound is caught completely unaware as sequential blasts of concentrated energy tear through its walls and foundations; rendering its automated defenses entirely inactive. As acolytes and bystanders scurry from the unrelenting barrage, Viktor - the Herald, himself - materialises amidst the crumbling wall where a blast had recently struck; only to be knocked from his feet as yet another ball of concentrated energy connects with his shoulder. Only at that precise moment, when the blast hit him, did the Herald realise who the gunner was. The man responsible for this siege on his home.

Viktor : "Jayce. Utilising my designs to level my own lab to the ground?!"

With a grunt, the Herald wills a barrier around himself, negating a second blast. He directs his gaze towards the smouldering tiles on floor, where his shoulder-mounted arm lay, crushed and separated from his frame when he had been knocked from his feet. There is no second option, and so Viktor begins running towards the source of the weapon fire, the blasts not enough to tear through his now active barrier.

Realising his position, Jayce redirects his fire toward the compound, digging deeper and deeper. But Viktor is closing in, quickly.

Jayce : "He's... getting faster!?"

Then he scopes it: The containment chamber for the crystal. The very same design that they had used when working together in Piltover. Well, the orders were secure or destroy.

An explosion rocks the compound as all systems fail; generators and support systems engulfing in flames due to the sudden surge from the shattered crystal. Viktor turns, indecisive, and Jayce breathes an inward sigh of relief. When Viktor turns back to face the assailant, Jayce is gone; well and truly on his way back to Piltover, where the city-state is waiting to glorify his exploits as a triumph of Piltovian ingenuity in the face of Zaunite menace.

Jayce has been elevated to the status of city hero. Viktor, the evil menace that must be defeated. Working towards a common goal and fearing their own destruction, who knows what wonders Piltover might accomplish?

And it all went off without a hitch. Kind've.

Shame about the crystal.

63 Comments

A Superb Villain18 votes

I like your interpretation, specifically, because it slaps some rust on Piltover's shiny reputation; city officials are so keen on maintaining Piltover's image of progress they are willing to employ underhanded tactics.

On the one hand we have Jayce; charming, honest, perhaps not a genius, but still an intelligent fellow, offered the chance to be a hero. Fame, fortune, and the means to perform good deeds on behalf of Piltover, who wouldn't accept such a chance? Yet Jayce is being manipulated by the city to exemplify the Piltovian ideal, an ideal they may no longer be capable of fulfilling with complete sincerity.

I like it because it makes Jayce out to be a genuinely good person, if a little blinded by naiveté. He is caught up in events beyond his ability to perceive. It leaves room for character growth; how would he react to uncovering the true nature of his celebrity? Would he turn away, or press forward in spite of the revelation?

On the other hand we have Viktor; courteous, clinical, efficient, eagerly paving the way for a greater, more secure future. He sees a world without famine or fatigue, where death is a faded dream of the past, and mankind pursues new heights without reservation or fear. However, such a dream comes at an expense, one many regard with trepidation. Incapable or unwilling to observe how the benefits of the Glorious Evolution outweigh its cost, Viktor's vision is regarded as little more than a curiosity.

As someone who has already paid his debt to mechanical perfection, he cannot understand why people would resist. Thus Viktor, as one who discovered a new form of existence in the depths of his depression, remains detached from humanity, much as he was the moment he became more machine than man. He can no longer understand humanity in full, just as it cannot understand him in turn.

Neither Viktor nor Jayce are explicitly bad, simply individuals with dreams and ideals trying to do the very best in weaving through the myriad circumstances that form their world.

https://cdn.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/426/960/large/rachel-j-corey-52.jpg?1421979866

The Anagram King8 votes

That's precisely what I was going for, and I'm nothing less than ecstatic you liked it.

I was inspired a little bit by political trends. One side trying to push forward, one side pulling back and relying more on propaganda efforts. It always seems as though one side will be a little more effective or 'correct' than the other at any given moment; and what better way to siphon support than to glorify a symbol that represents your fan base and vilify those opposed to it?

Viktor and Jayce may be flawed, but not the point that either is really a villain. And yet here they are, two men supposedly of peace and science locked in a rivalry that has **already **culminated in both destruction and violence.

The hatred directed at Viktor. The spite, the fear - it was always on a level only associated with hearsay and propaganda. I feel that it could very well have a deliberate source in of a weakened government looking to reestablish its status as the top innovator on the world stage.

Killer of Poros11 votes

Both of them are willing to go to extremes to preserve their ideals and further humanity. However, Viktor has seen what the worst in humans are from Stanley who stole all his work. Jayce is also trying to accomplish the goal of helping people but is more naive and sees the world as black or white with clear cut good and evil. What Viktor is doing is an extremely gray area of ethics and morality so jayce just perceives it as an inherent evil. I'd say Viktor is more knowledgeable and experienced with the capabilities of people so he has a more compelling reason to pursue his ideals while Jayce is just blindly following a moral code he sees as correct.

junglerboy167 votes

Personally, I feel Viktor is actually the more human of the two (rather ironic I know) He knows he has flaws, and he knows his world, or at least his home (Zaun) is a broken place. He is driven and empowered by the pain and suffering of those living around him. His city is in shambles, a pile of broken down, corrupted potential that the strongest members of his society manipulated to their ends. He seeks to remedy the issue in the only way he knows. His personal augmentations undoubtedly make life simpler for him, between daily living in a polluted city and defending himself from the street gangs, and he only seeks to help those around him. He may be misguided and slightly deranged because of his own personal demons that plagued him before his augmentations (like his sense of failure, victimization, impotence to make a change, etc.), but his goal is an honest attempt at making humanity thrive, and more specifically, improving the lives of the fellow citizens of Zaun. I would not say he is a villain, or even an anti-hero, but simply a hero who is so desperate to help those around him that he fails to see the downsides and negative repercussions of his plans to improve his world. Viktor is a leader, and is empowered by his strong moral character and sense of justice, whether it be realized through bringing up the suffering people of Zaun to heightened glory through his evolution, or his intense personal struggle with the actions of Stanwick Piddidly. Viktor in a way is a slightly misguided version of a leader like George Washington, who sought to better the lives of his fellow man and was not driven by greed for power.

Jayce feels so artificial it hurts. He is like a poster child, not a real human. Regardless of his talent, he is cocky, arrogant, and quite frankly full of himself. He isn't driven to improve his society, but rather his own personal image (I mean really, we all know Jayce wrote his own lore), with benefitting his society simply being a convenient side effect of that drive. Jayce is charismatic and popular, and has a very shallow moral sense that at its extent seems to be, "I made a decision and it didn't hurt Piltover, so it must be good". That kind of Charismatic, depthless moral leadership is similar to one particularly unsavory character; Hitler. Yes, I just compared Jayce to Hitler. Jayce is the kind of character who would rewrite the history books to make himself the good guy, who would lead his small selected group of adoring followers (most of Piltover) to eradicate the weak (in this case Zaun) for the sake of their own greater good, rather than even attempt to aid them in picking themselves up from the gutter of humanity, who would posture himself as the greatest thing his city ever got, all because he is addicted to the popularity, the power, and the way he being the golden boy of his city allows him free reign to go storming into Zaun to wreck Viktors work all for the sake of a crystal which he didn't even attempt to retrieve intact (and I don't really trust his lore, it feels like he doctored the books to make his escapade into Viktor's lab portray him as totally in the right).

Yeah, this may be a slightly extreme take on the Jayce/Viktor dynamic, but hey, food for thought, right?

Ebonmaw Dragon5 votes

{quoted}

Viktor is a leader, and is empowered by his strong moral character and sense of justice

http://cdn.garenanow.com/webupdate/live/lolphweb/news/2014%20September/25/Viktor%20Champion%20Update/Viktor_Passive.png

Valaran Nara5 votes

o_o Well god dang. Put it that way, they are both "good guys" on their perspective sides.

Everybody, good, bad, lawful, chaotic. Mad men cloaked in a veil of righteousness and those who seek to stop them. They're all fighting, believing they are on the sides of the angels.

Most if not all of the time, it's purely point of view.

The Anagram King8 votes

Totally.

I'm not of the opinion that Jayce had a desire to frame Viktor and be the hero - he's narcissistic, but not on the level that he would try to make an enemy of one of the single most powerful creatures (or should I say creations?) on the planet.

In actual fact, I'm more of the opinion that Jayce's lore is just poorly written. :P But if it were salvageable in any sense, I think it would be that there's either been a huge misunderstanding - or some third party in play. In this case? A worried government looking to rally their citizens and, in doing so, claw their way back into relevancy.

UomoAfide5 votes

I think you have a point. As you said, Jayce lore is poorly written, i agree, it's not bad but it could be better, nay?

Handsome Jhin5 votes

I love your take on this. Love it. Oh my god. Jayce and Viktor have some of the best grounds for super awesome lore stuff (beyond Viktor being a cartoon villain) that nobody is capitalizing on well enough. (No bias in this post, at all, for real. Ignore summoner name.)

The way I interpret it is that no one wants to think they're the villain. Of course no one thinks they're the bad guy. Viktor respects Jayce's work and his intelligence and thinks they can make something glorious and progressive out of it -- and he likely thinks that Jayce is the villain for stupidly going to lengths to make sure that didn't happen. Viktor likely genuinely believes that whatever loss and misery is caused in the process of the Glorious Evolution will be worth it in the long run.

On the other hand, Jayce (IMO) is the absolute epitome of "high intelligence, low wisdom" -- he's got booksmarts and brains for days, but when it comes to common sense and forethought, he's pretty subpar because he's emotional and easily swayed by pride. In your take on it, I definitely assume Viktor's description of the Glorious Evolution didn't sound like it would turn out with Jayce (and, if you want to make Jayce a little bit less of a dick, the entire city-state of Piltover) on top, because Viktor would likely try to nab the crystal for himself, humiliating Jayce (and Piltover as a whole) in the process.

So I think neither of them are really "bad guys", just misguided in different ways. Viktor is too forward-thinking, but Jayce is too shortsighted.

Damn I love this post so much.

terkmc5 votes

Viktor Is a visionary and perhaps the most human of all, he strives to make everyone better, even those who feared him, those who oppose him, the door to the Revolution is still open to even them. He is willing to accept his enemy for the Revolution, a Revolution that will make mankind better, a Revolution that will elevate every human, regardless of their background, their wealth or their status, to their maximum potential. And like many who came before him, his vision is tarnished by fear-mongering, ignorance and those who fear what they do not understand. But the Machine Herald does not stop, nor does he hate the world for vivifying him. He above the petty trifling of fame and celebrity and understood the importance of a Revolution will break the chains that binds humanity as a whole. And he treads on, working tirelessly, unappreciated, vivified for (ironically) a better tomorrow. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight

Laughing Fish4 votes

Viktor, in his quest for the Glorious Evolution, did the exact same crime that was done to him. His work was stolen, and when that happened it drove a brilliant and otherwise good man to violence. But Viktor than steals Jayce's work, and that turns another brilliant and otherwise good man to violence. In many ways Viktor is becoming that which he hates.

Now, as to which one is the villain: To me that depends on one key detail: Will Viktor begin forcing the Glorious Evolution on those that do not wish to join? As of yet Viktor has only evolved those that willing joined him. But Jayce is convinced that the Glorious Evolution will not end until it consumes everyone. If Jayce is right, he just saved humanity as we know it from extinction. BUT if Jayce is wrong, he just destroyed a brilliant inventors work (and possibly killed innocent people, as I am sure that at least some Acolytes were killed when Viktor's machines caught fire and ceased to work).

One more thing: Creator Viktor shows a universe in which Viktor wins, and it is not pretty. But will our universe's Viktor become the same tyrant that Creator Viktor did? And if so is it morally right to punish Viktor for what he will become?

Tesla Effect2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Laughing Fish,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=VxbsnWPX,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-05-15T12:14:40.627+0000)

Viktor, in his quest for the Glorious Evolution, did the exact same crime that was done to him. His work was stolen, and when that happened it drove a brilliant and otherwise good man to violence. But Viktor than steals Jayce's work, and that turns another brilliant and otherwise good man to violence. In many ways Viktor is becoming that which he hates.

Now, as to which one is the villain: To me that depends on one key detail: Will Viktor begin forcing the Glorious Evolution on those that do not wish to join? As of yet Viktor has only evolved those that willing joined him. But Jayce is convinced that the Glorious Evolution will not end until it consumes everyone. If Jayce is right, he just saved humanity as we know it from extinction. BUT if Jayce is wrong, he just destroyed a brilliant inventors work (and possibly killed innocent people, as I am sure that at least some Acolytes were killed when Viktor's machines caught fire and ceased to work).

One more thing: Creator Viktor shows a universe in which Viktor wins, and it is not pretty. But will our universe's Viktor become the same tyrant that Creator Viktor did? And if so is it morally right to punish Viktor for what he will become?

Because, for all the effort Viktor put to remove his humanity, he is still flawed like a person. His ideals are what drove him to do what he did, it was not the logical thing to do, it was a very human thing to do (cause humans sometimes do illogical things for their own goals or reasons).

So yeah Viktor, you are still human ;)

Laughing Fish4 votes

Exactly. Viktor may have removed as much emotion as possible, but he had already begun his quest by then. The very foundation of The Glorious Evolution is based in emotion, and thus Viktor still hasn't escaped emotional flaws.

revliledpembroke1 votes

We also need to know what human emotions Viktor says he has removed, and which he considers to be negative emotions. Because on one hand, he may consider something like anger to be negative, but his anger also helped fuel everything he has built. On another hand, he may decide kindness is something to be removed, turning him into full EVULLLL territory. On a third hand, he may realize at some point that the pure logic a machine offers is both good and bad, because logic can lead down some dark paths (As seen in I, Robot and numerous episodes of Star Trek),

Ebonmaw Dragon4 votes

They aren't Villains or Good guys... however i want to point something in the lore of Jayce:

"Trust me: if we're smart, Piltover can stand strong against any threat. Hey, I'm living proof."

At first i think that Jayce was talking about Viktor... i mean, his lore is only focused on Viktor and himself... But Viktor has never tried to be a threat for Piltover (Or the city would be already in Ruins with a Chaos Storm)

However... other Zaunites ARE attacking Piltover (Jinx, and maybe others... even Ekko mentions a "revolution" in Piltover)... So, it seems like everyone (Jayce, Ekko (and Even Heimer?)) blames Viktor for things that he has never done.

Tesla Effect2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=VxbsnWPX,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-05-15T12:38:34.956+0000)

They aren't Villains or Good guys... however i want to point something in the lore of Jayce:

"Trust me: if we're smart, Piltover can stand strong against any threat. Hey, I'm living proof."

At first i think that Jayce was talking about Viktor... i mean, his lore is only focused on Viktor and himself... But Viktor has never tried to be a threat for Piltover (Or the city would be already in Ruins with a Chaos Storm)

However... other Zaunites ARE attacking Piltover (Jinx, and maybe others... even Ekko mentions a "revolution" in Piltover)... So, it seems like everyone (Jayce, Ekko (and Even Heimer?)) blames Viktor for things that he has never done.

To me Jayce is over confident in most situations, Viktor as well. Its just Jayce is more of an extrovert, where as Viktor is an introvert. both compliment each other and their flaws pretty well. Could be better, but I can see the duality.

CleverExpletive4 votes

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/captain-hammer-is-here.gif?w=650 Jayce

http://comediva.com/images/stories/2013/DrHorribleRule.gif Viktor

Kinda how I've always viewed their relationship, with each other and the public.

kitcat3004 votes

It would be easier to draw a conclusion if we knew more about how each is currently using their notoriety.

Viktor

  • Is he doing inhumane experiments at the expense of innocent people like other stereotypical Zauites?
  • Is he even attacking Piltover at all or doing anything that is outwardly threatening?

Jayce

  • Does he continue to be the scientist he once was?
  • Outside of stopping Viktor, has he done anything to maintain his status has hero? (Important question now that he isn't part of the institute of war)
GreenLore3 votes

I fully agree with this.As it currently stands we just don't have that much info about them.

However the problem that I see already is that the moment we get a lore piece where viktor does something bad,there'll be a huge outcry for making viktor a villain...

The Anagram King2 votes

The worst nightmare of Viktor mains everywhere - the day Viktor kidnaps Jayce's girlfriend and RIOT confirms him a cartoon villain once and for all.

GreenLore2 votes

This will be celebrated with Viktor getting a giant-turtle skin,while jayce gets a plumber skin.

The Anagram King1 votes

Also frog and raccoon skins, as are appropriate for the world that he's currently in.

Reynard the ƒox3 votes

I didn't bother to read your post, because there is only one right answer.

Viktor is a despicable villain, Jayce is a dashing hero. I don't know why you would even stop to consider it.

Brotha2 votes

{quoted}

I didn't bother to read your post, because there is only one right answer.

Viktor is a despicable villain, Jayce is a dashing hero. I don't know why you would even stop to consider it.

This. Viktor fanboys can make all the fanfiction they like, canon lore (which is still valid thanks to the fact there is no involvement with the league in their lore) sides with the defender of tomorrow.

Jayce "This is what the future looks like"

Leetri11 votes

Viktor's lore sides with Viktor, Jayce's rewritten lore sides with Jayce. They had to rewrite Jayce's lore because it completely went against Viktor's lore and everything about his personality (it still kinda does). Viktor is an anti-villain/anti-hero. His goal is good (to further humanity and conquer death) but his means can be seen as evil. He's in a grey zone of ambiguous morality. In fact, the only bad thing he has ever done lore-wise was stealing that crystal because Jayce didn't want to share. Even that is questionable. Jayce's lore is still pretty poorly written, IMO. Viktor would never steal research, because he's been on the other side. Stanwick stole all his research and took the credit for creating the world's first steam golem. Imagine having your entire life and all your accomplishments stolen and you can't do anything about it. That changed Viktor.

Brotha1 votes

{quoted}

Viktor's lore sides with Viktor, Jayce's rewritten lore sides with Jayce. They had to rewrite Jayce's lore because it completely went against Viktor's lore and everything about his personality (it still kinda does). Viktor is an anti-villain/anti-hero. His goal is good (to further humanity and conquer death) but his means can be seen as evil. He's in a grey zone of ambiguous morality. In fact, the only bad thing he has ever done lore-wise was stealing that crystal because Jayce didn't want to share. Even that is questionable. Jayce's lore is still pretty poorly written, IMO. Viktor would never steal research, because he's been on the other side. Stanwick stole all his research and took the credit for creating the world's first steam golem. Imagine having your entire life and all your accomplishments stolen and you can't do anything about it. That changed Viktor.

Acknowledging that it changed him puts a big hole in your argument that Viktor wouldn't steal the crystal. I don't see how a creature who removed himself from emotion could still have a code of morals. Also, Jayce did not have authority to allow Viktor to take it even IF he wanted to. While his goal MAY have the best intentions, it is still the destruction of humanity.

Vistha Kai15 votes

The difference between Stanwick and Viktor is that Stanwick stole all the credit from Viktor. Viktor came to Jayce, knocked on his door, introduced himself, said what he represents, why he needs the crystal and offered Jayce cooperation in creating "brighter tomorrow". Viktor created a sentient robotical being from scratch. Jayce plugged two wires and learned that the crystal is a power conduit.

Brotha4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=VxbsnWPX,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-15T11:10:11.759+0000)

The difference between Stanwick and Viktor is that Stanwick stole all the credit from Viktor. Viktor came to Jayce, knocked on his door, introduced himself, said what he represents, why he needs the crystal and offered Jayce cooperation in creating "brighter tomorrow".

Except it can't really be a "brighter tomorrow" if it is devoid of human emotion in Jayce's eyes. That is why he refused Viktor. Viktor's response was to simply take it and destroy Jayce's lab in the process. You almost have to feel sorry for Viktor because now he has fallen so low as to perform the very wrongs that were committed against him.

Viktor created a sentient robotical being from scratch. Jayce plugged two wires and learned that the crystal is a power conduit.

Viktor led the **team **that created a sentient robot. Jayce created an acceleration gate to accompany his Mercury Hammer which is a dual close/long range weapon capable of high levels of destruction (1 man siege destroyed Viktor's lab) and possibly limited flight (emote).

Baron of Bread6 votes

Viktor didn't destroy anything, why do people think he did? Read Jayce's lore carefully and you will see that the only thing Viktor did damage-wise is incinerate the lab's meager security force. I even made an argument that the security force probably wasn't even human.

I do agree that Viktor did pretty much just steal Jayce's stuff, but not his research. Viktor built his own stuff off of the crystal, and a ton of it in the time it took for Jayce to make his hammer.

If we want to talk inventions I am pretty sure Viktor has Jayce beat. Viktor is his own invention. That by itself should put him at least on par with Jayce. But Viktor was partially responsible for Blitzcrank in addition to all of his stuff that were not fully described in Jayce's lore. There could be more from both of them, but as far as the lore goes I am pretty sure Viktor has Jayce beat, even if that just comes from having more time to do it.

GreenLore4 votes

I agree that jayces original lore was really bad,making viktor look like a total hypocrite who was inferior to jayce not only in terms of fighting ability,but also in terms of intelligence.

But the rewritten lore doesn't run into these problems. Viktor stole a resource from jayce.He didn't take anything from jayces research,because he simply didn't need to do that,he is smart enough to use the power of the crystal himself,its just that he obviously can't replicate a one-of-a-kind resource,because no one can.

Viktors backstory might be sympathetic,but that doesn't excuse his actions.

Mystery Yoghurt1 votes

It's my hope that it Riot retcons anything else, it's THAT lore. Then they can replace it with something more interesting - like a complete absence of Jayce. :P

Or perhaps I'm just bitter, and a better explanation/an in-depth analysis of his lore could be the way to go. He's such a stereotypical goody-goody; they even had to "evil" up Viktor to make the shoe fit correctly. =p

GreenLore1 votes

Here's the thing though: You say they eviled up Viktor to make him fit into jayces lore. But well do you think that viktor,the guy who has a metal face,fires a death ray around and thinks that humaneness and emotions are just hindrances was ever supposed to be a good guy?

I think he was actually supposed to be evil from the get-go,possibly even worse than the way he is portrayed in the jayce-lore(which would explain the original jayce lore),but he accidently came off as more sympathetic than anything else and people generally assumed the best of him,because his original lore never told us how he acts.We got to know how he joined the league,but not what he'll do outside of it.

In the end I doubt that viktor will ever stop being a villain in the future,but I hope they keep him morally complex and don't make him a "hurr-durr-evil"-guy.

Mystery Yoghurt1 votes

There is no doubt in my mind that Viktor's was intended to be a villain from the get go. But what they created was not what they intended. If this were the case, Jayce's lore would have been shrugged off as a byproduct of good V evil matchups. I mean, Jayce still would have been one-dimensional and the subject of running jokes, but the lore would likely not have been rewritten to favour Vik a little better.

In the end, Riot has creative control over who Viktor is. Over who Jayce is. But the niche community that loves Viktor does so for his complexity and bad-boy attitude (I can save him!)

I don't think Riot would stick with a decision to outright vilify him. Maybe do it with callous disregard at first, but there would be a cult-like uprising full of complaining Viktor fans (myself included) until it was fixed.

GreenLore1 votes

The rewriting of Jayces toned down viktors villainy(Viktor would at least offer jayce to cooperate and didn't steal an invention,so he didn't look like a hypocrite who was a worse scientist than jayce),but he was still the villain,trying to steal something from jayce and even attacking him. A villain doesn't have to be evil just for the sake of being evil.Just because a person doesn't kick puppies whenever he/she can doesn't mean that said person isn't a villain.

And the thing is that Viktor really never did anything good that we know of. Yes,he has acolytes,but so does Malzahar who tries to feed humanity to the void in order to save his own skin.

Viktor is supposed to be almost emotionless,so why would he feel sympathy for others?He will do what is efficient regardless if its morally right or wrong.If he does something good then it is just a means for his own goals and these kind of characters tend to be villains(or token-evil teammates)

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

But as he turns himself into a robot, he may not be worried about human emotions like pride in one's research. That's often a flaw in a villain: hypocrisy.

Baron of Bread1 votes

It can also be a flaw in hero's.

Edit: I do still agree with Viktor potentially stealing research at this point. I just don't think he has yet.

GreenLore3 votes

Overall I really like your interpretation of the rivalry,mainly because it makes Jayce less of a Gary sue and because it actually adds some depht to Piltover as a whole.

However I really doubt that this is the actual case. Jayces lore is written in an informative way,so I see no point in doubting his lores accuracy. If it was some kind of journal or told from someones perspective,then it could be seen as a case of unreliable narrator,but that isn't the case here.

Now I think the question as for why Jayce was heralded as a hero,despite being unable to bring back the crystal is actually justified.But this most likely either means that piltover is afraid of Viktor(or maybe Zaun as a whole) getting their hands on something like this(either because they might fear a war with zaun or because they simply don't want to loose to zaun in terms of technological advancement),or that it was seen as a symbolic victory to teach Zaun a lesson for stealing from Piltover.

In the end though I think that Viktor is still the villain,although I'd say he is more of an anti-villain having a good goal,but trying to achieve it through immoral methods.

The Soulforged3 votes

The thing I hate about Jayce is his attitude in game. So full of ego for a newbie. And he isn't even DRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVEN!

Edit: Something I got out of looking again at their lores is that I think that Viktor has still kept his emotions, but chooses to hide them.

The Anagram King2 votes

At the very least, he certainly enjoys shooting his lasers way too much for a robot supposedly void of emotion.

bzzzzzzt

Viktor "Kyehehehehehehe!!"

Dreddeth3 votes

There's a reason why I call Viktor "Doctor Steel." Much like Doctor Steel, he's not exactly on the right side of the law, but he is, at worst, a well-meaning extremist who is genuinely trying to act on altruistic principle and advance life as a whole.

Also, trans-humanism is awesome.

Ebonmaw Dragon3 votes

By the way... why no one has mentioned this guy?:

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130528050125/marveldatabase/images/f/f9/Victor_von_Doom_(Earth-616)_from_Thor_Vol_1_600.jpg

I mean, aside from the fact that his name is Victor, he has a "metal face" like Viktor... and he uses magic/technology like Viktor (Hextech is the combination between magic and science)... He is actually... a good guy... even if he IS the main villain of the "Fantastic 4"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWrOf70pkXQ

AffableZombie1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=VxbsnWPX,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2015-05-15T23:28:24.740+0000)

By the way why no one has mentioned this guy

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130528050125/marveldatabase/images/f/f9/Victor_von_Doom_(Earth-616)_from_Thor_Vol_1_600.jpg

I mean, aside from the fact that his name is Victo, he has a "metal face" like Viktor... and he uses magic/technology like Viktor (Hextech is the combination between magic and science)... He is actually... a good guy... even if he IS the main villain of the "Fantastic 4"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWrOf70pkXQ

Aww man, so many parallels.

AffableZombie2 votes

Well in Daoism there is no good or evil just duality, you know Yin and Yang. Both have there flaws in morality. Nether of them are perfect and one cant really exist without the other. They are both opposite ends of a whole.

Heimerdinger "Order, entropy; a never ending cycle. Or is it?" TIL Heimerdinger is a Daoist, maybe.

Praetor Don2 votes

When we are the 'Viktors' who will question our methods?

Centuros2 votes

We need more lore to flesh this out... the only problem is, no matter who is the "villain," people will complain.

Angelofchaos16x2 votes

I feel like both are heros but of diferent sorts One is more clear on being a hero. He is good looking, is smart, brags like hell, has charm and wit and your usual sunday morning hero. The other is not always so clear that he is a hero, but he is one none the less. He is more a of a hero that has some diferent principals and morals, that escape from the usual.

Matezoide2 votes

lmao people calling Jayce the villain.

In their interaction, Viktor is the one that stole Jayce's crystal and fled. You cant possibly say Jayce is the bad guy in this scenario.

Regardless, neither of them are evil.

Ufap2me2 votes

Im all for viktor no matter what the lore says, jayce just strikes me as the superman archetype "good guy" who never loses. Viktors the underdog

The Anagram King1 votes

Viktor : Sprawling lab, automated defenses, religious following, unrivalled technological capacity and a transhuman body that shoots lasers and creates barriers.

Jayce : Hammers, justice!

Sorry, Vik - you never had a chance!

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