Serious Question (Slightly Beating A Dead Horse)

Xonra··3 votes·625 views

While the dead horse of the lore retcon has been resurrected and beaten again many times over, I'm just wondering now, what the actual point of the retcon was, but hear me out before downvoting.

The entire purpose of the lore Retcon was to make the lore more flexible for the "lore team" since having summoner's rift, summoners and the whole "League" was constraining, and hindered writing possibilities. My question is then:

  • What exactly has been done in the past two years that proves that to be true?
  • What has Riot given us that they couldn't have with the old lore fully intact?
  • What about any of the lore events or changed backstories couldn't have been done with the old lore?

Looking over all of the lore we have received a short time before and ever since, I have seen nothing that couldn't have been added or changed with what we already had. I can't see one thing that leads me to believe the lore needed to be retconned after two years now. Very few plots have been moved forward, and nothing has been changed drastically with the new lore (outside of the old lore leaving a big hole in it that still hasn't been fully explained outside of a Riot hand wave and "this isn't the lore you are looking for")

I'm not here to throw a hissy fit because that isn't the point, but I'm just curious what the point of the retcon was now, given time to see the new lore that was added, because none of it shows a need to remove the old lore in the way they did, with the explanations given. I'm lead to believe now that either they were lying about the reason (as in they didn't have one) or plans changed drastically since then, and they just thought they were in too deep to turn back.

10 Comments

Sharjo6 votes

So these are just my thoughts and people will likely disagree but whatever. Here's how I view some individual cases:

  • Rek'Sai couldn't exist as she does now in the old setting. She'd have been imprisoned by the IoW.
  • Renekton's in the same position as Rek'Sai considering he was imprisoned by the IoW.
  • Xerath roaming around unchecked where as before the Summoner's had a close eye on him to keep him from doing anything.
  • Vel'Koz roaming around and being a general danger to everyone and anything. I doubt he'd be all that intrigued by the League considering there's very little he could gain from being summoned in to the same simulation to constantly re-examine.
  • Mordekaiser ruling the Shadow Isles and just Harrowings in general. That doesn't seem like something the League would have ignored.
  • Tahm Kench would have gained nothing from the League because even if he found more notoriety from being a champion he also ran the risk of his true nature being revealed and him being imprisoned and denied his way of life.
  • The ever burning question of why Aatrox would want to be involved in the League remains. He works in ways that alter the course of human history through large scale warfare. Based on that what does he have to gain from working in the controlled League environment? If anything it'd inhibit him, at least as far as I see it.

Just some thoughts of mine. Could they have worked with the old lore? Yeah potentially. Would it require a big contrivance? Yep. Huge in some cases. I personally find it better that these things can exist without what essentially would amount to the divine intervention of the League because at the end of the day that's what they served the purpose of; deus ex machina to fix problems. The League would've come to stop Morde's reign on the Shadow Isles and stop the Harrowings. They would've immediately locked up Renekton, Rek'Sai and Vel'Koz. Yes that still means the lore was workable, but that way of solving the problem is not compelling to me personally. Hell I feel like some champions just work better without the League, like Varus. Now he can just go kill Noxians as he pleases without an institution to revenge block him.

All in all I really don't care to compare old to new in any capacity. It only leads to headaches. I like the new stuff, I'm gonna keep liking the new stuff until I stop liking it, whenever that might be if ever. The old stuff is dead and buried to me at this point and serves only to reference what changes may come in the future.

Xonra1 votes

{quoted}

So these are just my thoughts and people will likely disagree but whatever. Here's how I view some individual cases:

  • Rek'Sai couldn't exist as she does now in the old setting. She'd have been imprisoned by the IoW.

Yes she could. There was already much worse. I mean Cho'Gath alone is 10 times worse in the old lore. Rek'Sai is just a land shark, nothing actually that powerful as far as most other creatures in the lore before or after.

  • Renekton's in the same position as Rek'Sai considering he was imprisoned by the IoW.

Not sure what the point here is. Also Renekton was released. the only champion that was "imprisoned" officially when the retcon happened was Fiddlesticks.

  • Xerath roaming around unchecked where as before the Summoner's had a close eye on him to keep him from doing anything.

So in other words, the lore is actually worse off now, because there is nothing at all watching him and he could just randomly kill everything if he wanted since there is no one keeping him in check. Not a strong argument.

  • Vel'Koz roaming around and being a general danger to everyone and anything. I doubt he'd be all that intrigued by the League considering there's very little he could gain from being summoned into the same simulation to constantly re-examine.

Vel'Koz is honestly not all that strong in comparison to half the League roster, he is just a creepy void alien thing. You are also assuming that the millions of games played every day in RL is the same equivalent in the lore, which isn't the case. It would be more like 1 every other day, maybe.

  • Mordekaiser ruling the Shadow Isles and just Harrowings in general. That doesn't seem like something the League would have ignored.

They ignored it just fine, seeing as the Shadow Isles were already a thing pre-retcon, and the League did nothing about it before. The lore was solidified when Elise came out, so that was there for a while with the old lore.

  • Tahm Kench would have gained nothing from the League because even if he found more notoriety from being a champion he also ran the risk of his true nature being revealed and him being imprisoned and denied his way of life.

There are far worse things, yet again, to worry about and imprison than Tahm Kench. It isn't as if the League was a zoo and if they didn't like something it got put into a box. This locking things up comment is starting to sound like a bit of a projecting comment over the actual lore of the game as it was.

  • The ever burning question of why Aatrox would want to be involved in the League remains. He works in ways that alter the course of human history through large scale warfare. Based on that what does he have to gain from working in the controlled League environment? If anything it'd inhibit him, at least as far as I see it.

He was in there just fine before, and his lore was tied to Jax' lore, as he was teasers of Aatrox in Jax's splash art when Aatrox was new, but the lore never really happened because of the lore changes. Jax was basically the LoL champ more or less, so strong he had to fight with a lamp post because he felt he was too strong. There was obviously a reason Aatrox had his attention on someone that strong. His lore has since been changed to an extent, so this isn't really a relevant argument to be honest.

**Would it require a big contrivance? **

I disagree here pretty greatly, as someone who was around since 2010 and deep into the lore. A lot of your reasoning wasn't even directly lore based and seemed to be a bit of assumption. I mean you used a lot of reasoning that was the equivalent of them coming and putting x y and z person in jail, and that wasn't how it worked in the lore, at least not the the extent of you trying to explain away people with "they'd be locked up" or as if they'd march out and take out the Shadow Isles. That isn't how it worked in the lore.

All in all I really don't care to compare old to new in any capacity.

It isn't a matter of comparing, it is a matter of, at this point another case of changing for the sake of changing, like with certain changes in game. I just find the excuses and reasons Riot gave flimsy at best, and the lore now just feels disjointed and more like about 20 worlds and stories, and no longer like one big one of both.

Sharjo1 votes

I can't really say much because I wasn't here for the old lore; I only got invested around the time of Nami's release so I'm inherently biased in that. I lack the perspective to truly compare both, the former lore just seems inherently flawed to me as what is effectively an outsider looking in. I'll try and continue this discussion though, see where it leads.

Yes she could. There was already much worse. I mean Cho'Gath alone is 10 times worse in the old lore. Rek'Sai is just a land shark, nothing actually that powerful as far as most other creatures in the lore before or after.

Cho'Gath's power isn't described in very much detail at all in the old lore. It basically says he's a terrifying terror or terrorness. That's not exactly quantifiable in my eyes and Rek'Sai isn't just a land shark, she's a monstrous creature that effectively shaped Shuriman culture by just existing. Maybe I've missed something but I don't know of any lore that truly shows how Cho'Gath is orders of magnitude more deadly and threatening to Runeterra as a whole than Rek'Sai.

Not sure what the point here is. Also Renekton was released. the only champion that was "imprisoned" officially when the retcon happened was Fiddlesticks.

He wasn't ever released though, he like Cho'Gath, Brand, Nocturne and Fiddlesticks was imprisoned by the Institute and never got out. He was stuck there as they were. Did I miss a memo or something?

So in other words, the lore is actually worse off now, because there is nothing at all watching him and he could just randomly kill everything if he wanted since there is no one keeping him in check. Not a strong argument.

Not what I said so I'll try and explain better so as not to make an ass of this. Basically in the old lore Xerath was wary enough of Summoner's to essentially strike a deal with them so he could get free later if I'm remembering correctly. Without Summoner's he's now free to do what he wants in his own time and at his own pace. The old lore for Xerath effectively made it seem like he was purposefully trying to get around the big issue of the League so he could get his freedom, because of how all encompassing they were as an entity. He's not like that anymore, and if the League was still around he wouldn't have the freedom to do whatever he currently does. That's as far as I understand things.

Vel'Koz is honestly not all that strong in comparison to half the League roster, he is just a creepy void alien thing. You are also assuming that the millions of games played every day in RL is the same equivalent in the lore, which isn't the case. It would be more like 1 every other day, maybe.

How do you define strength though? He's way stronger than most champions considering his ability to vaporize people. Vel'Koz: First Contact stands testament to how easy it is for him to melt humans, and a large number of League's roster aren't exactly immune to that even if they can fight him off. He's also huge let's not forget.

And going on the League point, yes of course he won't be in a game all the time I know that, but The League still only provided a set number of arenas in the same places with a relatively small number of beings present to analyse. Vel'Koz is calculating and intelligent and he'll know that the League just wouldn't be nearly as efficient for his purpose of "consume and learn" as going out and just vaporizing whatever intrigued him most. Even if he did decide to join the League eventually he'd gain all the knowledge he could or would need and say sod it, I'm going to find proper knowledge. I mean even if he'd want to stick to the League solely to get a shot at learning about Zilean he'd probably eventually realize there's other ways of gaining the knowledge there and try something else. Vel'Koz could use the League effectively in the lore but it would've been sub-optimal for him for the sake of his own goals to take part in it as far as I can see.

They ignored it just fine, seeing as the Shadow Isles were already a thing pre-retcon, and the League did nothing about it before. The lore was solidified when Elise came out, so that was there for a while with the old lore.

The Shadow Isles didn't do anything back then. It posed little threat to the world because it was effectively a zombie infested ruin that did sod all. In the new lore it's an active threat to the world of Runeterra itself, and would at least be contended with by the League surely. I mean if Bilgewater gets over run then Mordekaiser decides it's high time to get his old throne back, war starts with Noxus and then the League will have to intervene to stop a catastrophic magical war. There's no getting around that as far as I can see; Mordekaiser would've eventually forced the League's hand if he continued making Harrowings happen. I feel like it'd make absolute zero sense for the League to ignore that. It would defeat their whole purpose for existing; protecting the world from immense magical global conflict, which Mordekaiser would bring with the armies of the Shadow Isles. I honestly don't see two ways around that.

As a note too, the Shadow Isles stuff from 2012 never mentioned anything to do with the League as far as I remember. Not a thing. This was many months after the discontinuation of the Journal and many months after the last time the League was ever referenced in any lore, that being Varus's judgement from...I wanna say six-eight months prior. This is me trying to clarify stuff so take it for what you will.

He was in there just fine before, and his lore was tied to Jax' lore, as he was teasers of Aatrox in Jax's splash art when Aatrox was new, but the lore never really happened because of the lore changes. Jax was basically the LoL champ more or less, so strong he had to fight with a lamp post because he felt he was too strong. There was obviously a reason Aatrox had his attention on someone that strong. His lore has since been changed to an extent, so this isn't really a relevant argument to be honest.

Aatrox has never had lore tied in with Jax, that much I at least know. There's never been any lore anywhere between those two, and the figure in Jax's splash is not Aatrox, I mean the horns don't even face the right way. Also neither Aatrox nor Jax have received lore changes. They're the same as they've always been.

I disagree here pretty greatly, as someone who was around since 2010 and deep into the lore. A lot of your reasoning wasn't even directly lore based and seemed to be a bit of assumption. I mean you used a lot of reasoning that was the equivalent of them coming and putting x y and z person in jail, and that wasn't how it worked in the lore, at least not the the extent of you trying to explain away people with "they'd be locked up" or as if they'd march out and take out the Shadow Isles. That isn't how it worked in the lore.

If it doesn't work that way in that the League doesn't protect Runeterra from sizeable threats then please do tell me. Because if it is just to stop Rune Wars then they were just a huge contrivance. Either things had to bend to the Institutes ways or work around then to function. Now they don't. It feels like there's always a lot of dancing around subjects to make the excuse as to why the League did or didn't do something, and it always reminds me as if we are talking about some kind of deity and why they didn't enact their divine intervention at some point or another. Please explain this to me, because honestly I feel like based on what people have said, I must just not get it, or people are misleading me, and I dunno what's up really.

It isn't a matter of comparing, it is a matter of, at this point another case of changing for the sake of changing, like with certain changes in game. I just find the excuses and reasons Riot gave flimsy at best, and the lore now just feels disjointed and more like about 20 worlds and stories, and no longer like one big one of both.

Honestly I prefer it. I prefer the world not having a center stage and these things existing separately because that's more realistic to me. The League always seemed like a thing above everyone's head, being the watchful eye that forced the world and all its denizens to only be able to take certain routes and paths else they draw its gaze. In the new Runeterra the world moves in accordance to itself, without some mediary between all the places in the world. I suppose being a fan of World of Warcraft helps because nothing is truly united by one singular thing unless it's the Burning Legion or something of that power, but even then people aren't united. The world is varied and vibrant and seems more organic without a center stage for all affairs, at least for me.

GreenLore2 votes

{quoted}

Yes she could. There was already much worse. I mean Cho'Gath alone is 10 times worse in the old lore. Rek'Sai is just a land shark, nothing actually that powerful as far as most other creatures in the lore before or after.

How? What Sharjo is referring to is the fact that in the old lore rek'Sai would have been imprisoned,just like cho'gath. Rek'sai is a beast,so you can't reason with her,so there is no way rek'sai would have joined the league willingly... It's like expecting a lion to sign up for an arena battle at the reception.

Not sure what the point here is. Also Renekton was released. the only champion that was "imprisoned" officially when the retcon happened was Fiddlesticks.

No renekton was never released by the IoW,he was always imprisoned,because he is simply too insane.

So in other words, the lore is actually worse off now, because there is nothing at all watching him and he could just randomly kill everything if he wanted since there is no one keeping him in check. Not a strong argument.

How is that an arguement? It is far more interesting if Xerath has more options other than "just participate in the league until the cage breaks" Giving a character more options can lead to much more interesting storylines.

Vel'Koz is honestly not all that strong in comparison to half the League roster, he is just a creepy void alien thing. You are also assuming that the millions of games played every day in RL is the same equivalent in the lore, which isn't the case. It would be more like 1 every other day, maybe.

While I agree that Vel'Koz would most likely join the league willingly just for the information,I'd say it is more interesting without it,as he now could actually try to kill a champion without interfering with the league and he'll have to search around himself.

They ignored it just fine, seeing as the Shadow Isles were already a thing pre-retcon, and the League did nothing about it before. The lore was solidified when Elise came out, so that was there for a while with the old lore.

But before that they didn't attack whole city states. The league stopped individual champion fights,they stopped the battle between demacia and noxus,why would they allow the shadow isles to try to conquer and slaughter bilgewater as a whole?

There are far worse things, yet again, to worry about and imprison than Tahm Kench. It isn't as if the League was a zoo and if they didn't like something it got put into a box. This locking things up comment is starting to sound like a bit of a projecting comment over the actual lore of the game as it was.

But why would tahm ever join the league?The only thing he wants is to bring suffering to people who he makes a contract with,but revealing his true nature in front of everyone would ruin his chances to get someone to agree.

He was in there just fine before, and his lore was tied to Jax' lore, as he was teasers of Aatrox in Jax's splash art when Aatrox was new, but the lore never really happened because of the lore changes. Jax was basically the LoL champ more or less, so strong he had to fight with a lamp post because he felt he was too strong. There was obviously a reason Aatrox had his attention on someone that strong. His lore has since been changed to an extent, so this isn't really a relevant argument to be honest.

And it was never explained why Aatrox would have joined the league,most likely because riot themselves had no idea why he'd support the one group that prevents him from having real wars... Also the connection to jax is and has always been a fan-theory,nothing official.

GreenLore2 votes

How could have GP faked his death with the IoW intact? I mean everyone would see him in the league,so why would anyone still assume he is dead?

Nato Boram1 votes

Amumu wouldn't make you cry because of a song with the old lore.

FloRaider421 votes

Harrowing in Bilgewater, GPs "death", Illaoi, Bard, Kindred, Azir, Rek'Sai... Basically if there are summoners nothing is ever at stake, because they can just magically fix everything

Xonra1 votes

{quoted}

Harrowing in Bilgewater, GPs "death", Illaoi, Bard, Kindred, Azir, Rek'Sai... Basically if there are summoners nothing is ever at stake, because they can just magically fix everything

If they could just "magically fix everything" then there are plenty of things from the old lore that would have never happened or would have been "magically fixed.

To name a few

  • Maokai wouldn't be a thing anymore because they would have simply turned him back into a tree
  • They would just toss all the void creatures back into the void
  • They likely would have imprisoned WW or revived Urf

There are also plenty of being that are just fine that were in the game before and just naming some champs doesn't really explain anything or prove anything.

You used Azir and Rek'Sai for example, but what about Nasus and Renekton? They were around all that time just fine. There were and are worse things than Rek'sai in the old lore. She is just some sand shark monster thing. Not sure what GP's "death" or the bilgewater event has to do with anything as there were much more meaningful events lore wise that happened before the retcon. GP wasn't the first champion to "die". The Harrowing also happened BEFORE the retcon, as did the whole black mist thing. If that was such a huge issue and the summoners could just magic it away, then the shadow isles would have just been snapped away instantly.

There was plenty at stake, which is why that excuse doesn't hold water at all. The only thing the League was there for was to give countries (really summing that explanation up) a reason to fight without going to actual war. I've still seen absolutely no reason for the retcon even with the explanations given here.

Sharjo1 votes

Not sure what GP's "death" or the bilgewater event has to do with anything as there were much more meaningful events lore wise that happened before the retcon. GP wasn't the first champion to "die".

Well the whole he survived thing kinda loses his weight when he comes back to fight in the League again, y'know?

The Harrowing also happened BEFORE the retcon, as did the whole black mist thing. If that was such a huge issue and the summoners could just magic it away, then the shadow isles would have just been snapped away instantly.

Er...they didn't. Harrowings as they currently stand in the lore have only been a thing in the new lore. The League never had a work around because in the old lore there were no Harrowings. The Harrowing was Runeterran halloween and had little to do with the Shadow Isles. The Shadow Isles event of 2012 had nothing to do with the Harrowings we see in the lore today.

GreenLore1 votes

summoners weren't almighty,yes,but they were pretty damm strong anyway.

I mean the summoners pulled nasus from a different dimension forcefully into their world(and nasus was even an accident),so there'd be nothing stopping the summoners to just pull whoever is making a fuss into a room full of well prepared mages to kill him/her.

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