What are Kayle and Morgana now? (And are they religious figures)

Mira Arya Enthe·Nov 2, 2016·4 votes·1,190 views

I have something important to discuss speaking of Kayle!

Obviously Runeterra has gods and spiritual beings and such. If including skins and maybe Evelynn? Demons too.

What are Kayle and Morgana? Like I know their old lore and what they were suppose to be, obvious dark and light angels. "You too will be judged!" "Come here... I will teach you all about teh afterlife."

But now that the summoners were not around to summon them into the League. Where do they stand? How does Runeterra view them? Are they worshipped? What kind of spiritual sway do they have? Do they still live in Demacia and Noxus? Etc.

38 Comments

GreenLoreNov 2, 20162 votes

Well Demons seem to be some sort of evil spirits,so maybe the angels will be another sort of spirit as well?

The question would be what would be the difference between a regular spirit,an angel and a demon(maybe demons posess people?)

RalanrNov 2, 20162 votes

I think a key difference is not something like possession, but how they interact and influence people.

It's possible that demons, spirits, and angels are all the same thing, but are perceived by mortals as being different.

GreenLoreNov 2, 20161 votes

Yeah that is definetly possible.

Though I believe there might be a difference because Shen talked about spirits and demons in his lore like they were related,but still differentiated by something. Why else would he even use the word demon if they are practically the same?He of all people would likely know it if there is a difference between these or not.

RalanrNov 2, 20161 votes

Both Noxians and Demacians are human but called separately.

GreenLoreNov 2, 20161 votes

They might be both human,but they are also different not just in mentality,but literally when it comes to which faction they belong. Sure it is a cultural difference,but it is still a difference.

I'm not saying that angels and demons can't be spirits(my whole point is that they might be spirits),its that they'd likely be a specific kind of spirits,either belonging to a certain spiritual faction(like the aspects)/role/whatever or having actual differences in terms of powers/appearance from other spirits.

Chromatic EagleNov 2, 20162 votes

I remember Riot saying that they intend on them being otherworldly creatures. Idk if that means they will still be angels.

ModAttysu The PoroNov 2, 20162 votes

...TBD?

Tbh good question, I wanna know too. XD

OurLestradeNov 2, 20161 votes

They'll probably suddenly be Shuriman or something. Personally I hope they keep them as otherworldly, since most otherworldly champions have been retconned now.

Mira Arya EntheNov 2, 20161 votes

XD SHURIMA! Now the place where everyone comes from and everything happened.

Tesla EffectNov 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They'll probably suddenly be Shuriman or something. Personally I hope they keep them as otherworldly, since most otherworldly champions have been retconned now.

Or we added new otherworldly champions like Pantheon.

Warlord DienekesNov 2, 20161 votes

And I still hate that they did that.

GreenLoreNov 2, 20161 votes

Well Kayle is likely going to be demacian and Morgana is going to be noxian,since those 2 factions relate to them the most.

Though I heard that they are going to be kept otherworldly in some way

Warlord DienekesNov 2, 20161 votes

Well they were originally nigh immortal aliens in a civil war IN SPACE! But I don't think they're going to keep that, since, that whole deal got put on Targon.

There have been a few guesses, that they're going to be more mythical figures, since Riot seems to have been pushing in that direction with a lot of their champions in recent years. Another I heard was they might be 2 of the other Darkin. Ultimately, I don't think anyone knows and I doubt that Riot is going to announce what they are until it's revealed in some story or their rework, or something.

Mira Arya EntheNov 2, 20161 votes

The Darkin theory is dumb and lacks substance imo.

I would be fine if they just integrated them as as more mythical angel and dark angel figures of some sort. To avoid any more alien nonsense or cursed weapon stuff.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 2, 20161 votes

They are now Aspects.

Lore retconned. XD.

Kappa. I honestly think they can be redone as fairies of some kind, being only called angels by their beauty. Bu I'm not too sure.

SithesisLordNov 2, 20162 votes

They are now Aspects.

This is the main thing that tilted the ever loving fuck outta me in the Targon lore.

they can be redone as fairies of some kind

I don´t think so. Probably they´ll be redone into a Darksiders-like angels(Not that Kayle wasn´t already). Half medieval, half high tech, considering Kayle's Aether Wing skin.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 2, 20162 votes

What? Leona, Diana and Taric still have their personalities, they just got a super boost, like X-Men mutants. :3

Panth tho...

GreenLoreNov 2, 20162 votes

Well its not like Pantheon had much of a personality before....

Though his identity definetly changed(from badass soldier to some sort of demi-god of war)

TyrekGoldenspearNov 2, 20161 votes

That bakes!

Stars ShaperNov 2, 20161 votes

Riot stated pretty clearly that in the future Atreus is coming back. Considering that they kind of improved the Shurima arc with its part 2 we can give them some trust.

GreenLoreNov 2, 20161 votes

Atreus will likely come back,but I doubt that he'll completely retake his body.

Stars ShaperNov 2, 20161 votes

I do believe that there are chances to this. It might be really cool if Atreus actually rebels and wins against Pantheon becoming then best buddies with Aurelion Sol.

Warlord DienekesNov 2, 20161 votes

He still doesn't have a personality. Only now instead of being an awesome soldier, he's some lame body hoping alien thing.

GreenLoreNov 2, 20163 votes

Not saying that his new personality is more fleshed out,just that the old one was really bland as well.

Warlord DienekesNov 2, 20161 votes

No argument there. And there is so much they could have done. The Spartans were such a unique people, there was so much to explore. So many caveats and oddities in their society that could create such an interesting and flawed character.

But no. He got rewritten into an alien.

GreenLoreNov 2, 20163 votes

I believe that the idea of an aspect that has completely overtaken his host is actually kinda neat....it would have been just better if it would have been used on a new character instead of pantheon.

Actually now that I think about it, Taric could have worked pretty well,considering that he came from another world in his original lore(which many thought of it meant he actually came from space in his original lore). Instead Taric turns out to be the one who is seemingly received the least influence from his aspect.(though I do like his new character) Its almost like they switched their positions in the lore.

Warlord DienekesNov 2, 20161 votes

I don't exactly have a problem with the existence of a story about aspects taking over people. Only so far as the fact that, that story doesn't interest me at all. My problem, is when they rewrote something that had absolutely nothing to do with aliens into suddenly being entirely about being possessed by aliens.

So, yeah, I agree, it would have been fine (not something I would have cared about reading, but fine) if it was some new character instead of Panth. I also agree with you on the whole Taric thing.

Valaran NaraNov 2, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=QnfA0LEZ,comment-id=000300000000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-02T22:07:19.886+0000)

I don't exactly have a problem with the existence of a story about aspects taking over people. Only so far as the fact that, that story doesn't interest me at all. My problem, is when they rewrote something that had absolutely nothing to do with aliens into suddenly being entirely about being possessed by aliens.

So, yeah, I agree, it would have been fine (not something I would have cared about reading, but fine) if it was some new character instead of Panth. I also agree with you on the whole Taric thing.

I think the problem is that the Aspects and Targonian aliens are described as aliens.

Technically speaking (and this is before Panth fully possessed), weren't Diana and Leona possessed by immense, god-like powers before?

Then there's the fact that Pantheon was a constellation and was part of a mythos surrounding Mount Targon (kinda like the idea of Hercules, Perseus, or Orion). There have been theories (CONPSIRACY THEORIES!!!) that believe in aliens, and that the Olympians may have been aliens to begin with. This is supposedly why humans worshipped them: because they descended from the heavens. This theory has also been stretched out to Aztec and Egyptian mythology because of the pyramids.

Right now, Riot has actually taken that thought pattern and running with it. These are not gods or deities who are seemingly omnipotent. They are beings on a greater scale of existence. Ones who understand more than what the people of that region and of the past could properly understand or comprehend. This is also why, as Aurelion streaked through the sky, he mentioned how the humans down below saw him as some sort of symbol, omen, or act of divine intervention. They don't have any idea or clue that he's actually a COSMIC-FUDGIN-DRAGON! They only know what they could possibly comprehend.

Warlord DienekesNov 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valaran Nara,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=QnfA0LEZ,comment-id=0003000000000000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-02T23:49:17.485+0000)

I think the problem is that the Aspects and Targonian aliens are described as aliens.

Technically speaking (and this is before Panth fully possessed), weren't Diana and Leona possessed by immense, god-like powers before?

Then there's the fact that Pantheon was a constellation and was part of a mythos surrounding Mount Targon (kinda like the idea of Hercules, Perseus, or Orion). There have been theories (CONPSIRACY THEORIES!!!) that believe in aliens, and that the Olympians may have been aliens to begin with. This is supposedly why humans worshipped them: because they descended from the heavens. This theory has also been stretched out to Aztec and Egyptian mythology because of the pyramids.

Right now, Riot has actually taken that thought pattern and running with it. These are not gods or deities who are seemingly omnipotent. They are beings on a greater scale of existence. Ones who understand more than what the people of that region and of the past could properly understand or comprehend. This is also why, as Aurelion streaked through the sky, he mentioned how the humans down below saw him as some sort of symbol, omen, or act of divine intervention. They don't have any idea or clue that he's actually a COSMIC-FUDGIN-DRAGON! They only know what they could possibly comprehend.

Yes, I've seen Stargate. I've seen that story done before. Or, part of it. Truth be told I watched 3 episodes and stopped. I'm not particularly interested in it, since, these theories are almost always a load of horseshit that fundamentally misinterpret history and fill in details often making crap up wholesale to sell the theory. "Ohh the pyramids are shaped the same across the globe, it has to be aliens!" No. Pyramids are a fundamentally secure structure, able to be made with stones. You might as well be asking why different locations figured out what a triangle was. Bunch of nonsense.

As to old!Lore, Diana and Leona were granted power, but very specifically weren't possessed. Leona even having deep-seated worries that she doesn't know why the Sun chose her, she might mess up and lose her power. This is different to current lore in that we see Leona wildly change moods before and after possession, and Pantheon become a essentially a Goa'uld.

It's not that the aliens are described as aliens that I hate it, they could be celestial elemental spirits, for all I care. They still barge into stories that would be more interesting without them taking over the main characters personalities.

Legacy of XionNov 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=QnfA0LEZ,comment-id=00030000000000000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-03T00:16:22.462+0000)

Yes, I've seen Stargate. I've seen that story done before. Or, part of it. Truth be told I watched 3 episodes and stopped. I'm not particularly interested in it, since, these theories are almost always a load of horseshit that fundamentally misinterpret history and fill in details often making crap up wholesale to sell the theory. "Ohh the pyramids are shaped the same across the globe, it has to be aliens!" No. Pyramids are a fundamentally secure structure, able to be made with stones. You might as well be asking why different locations figured out what a triangle was. Bunch of nonsense.

As to old!Lore, Diana and Leona were granted power, but very specifically weren't possessed. Leona even having deep-seated worries that she doesn't know why the Sun chose her, she might mess up and lose her power. This is different to current lore in that we see Leona wildly change moods before and after possession, and Pantheon become a essentially a Goa'uld.

It's not that the aliens are described as aliens that I hate it, they could be celestial elemental spirits, for all I care. They still barge into stories that would be more interesting without them taking over the main characters personalities.

I want to argue her changed moods. If Leona had won the duel and refused to kill her foe, then I would understand completely. BUT! she fought the boy until the Solari demanded it ended.

Her mood was merely...well, didn't she get possess AFTER Diana killed the Solari Elders? She already was a zealous bitch right out the gate.

She was really changed, not by possession though...

Warlord DienekesNov 3, 20161 votes

Before possession: I'm gonna kill Diana, she's a vile heretic. I was going to kill her before she murdered the Elders, just for talking, because I'm kind of a bitch that way. But now I'm definitely going to kill her!

After possession: We need to talk this out!

I do not see how it is possible to argue that the possession didn't change her mood.

As to the other thing, you're talking about, whether her character changes over time, I honestly think that her character is all over the place. Almost like the writers didn't know what they wanted to do.

Leona was living with a zealous murderous group who demanded that she murder the innocent. Leona doesn't do it. She then is forced to fight for her life for standing up against the laws.

In the end Leona gets rewarded for this behavior, in fact she gets a place of high standing. Then, we zoom forward X number of years. It's really impossible to say how many because the timeline between Pantheon's and Leona's stories does not make any sense at all. But, that's a complaint for another day. We're forward X years, Leona is now demanded to murder the innocent. Leona not only is willing to do it, she was freaking daydreaming about being an executioner. Then Diana kills the Elders before they can kill her. Then Leona chases her. Then she gets possessed and suddenly she's cool again.

The problem with that is the middle section doesn't stay consistent with the character she was in her old lore, and people actually liked her in her old lore. But possibly more importantly it doesn't stay consistent with her character in the story they had just written. Maybe it could be explained better if we saw how she was corrupted over time, or something. But all we actually get is this jarring couple of sentences where she is fantasizing about being an executioner. Then voila , alien possession and suddenly she's like the old Leona again. But that all implies that Leona is only a good person now, because of her alien possession. Which takes the character development and growth away from the character the story is supposed to be about, and places it on a vague, uninteresting alien character that shows up at the end of the story and warps the character around itself.

I really am not a fan of how the Targon lore came out. The only one that did this well, in my opinion, was Taric. Because it took the time to set up the character, and why he chose his actions as opposed to just having the characters personality shift depending on what was necessary for the scene.

Legacy of XionNov 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=QnfA0LEZ,comment-id=0003000000000000000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-03T14:43:09.793+0000)

Before possession: I'm gonna kill Diana, she's a vile heretic. I was going to kill her before she murdered the Elders, just for talking, because I'm kind of a bitch that way. But now I'm definitely going to kill her!

After possession: We need to talk this out!

I do not see how it is possible to argue that the possession didn't change her mood.

As to the other thing, you're talking about, whether her character changes over time, I honestly think that her character is all over the place. Almost like the writers didn't know what they wanted to do.

Leona was living with a zealous murderous group who demanded that she murder the innocent. Leona doesn't do it. She then is forced to fight for her life for standing up against the laws.

In the end Leona gets rewarded for this behavior, in fact she gets a place of high standing. Then, we zoom forward X number of years. It's really impossible to say how many because the timeline between Pantheon's and Leona's stories does not make any sense at all. But, that's a complaint for another day. We're forward X years, Leona is now demanded to murder the innocent. Leona not only is willing to do it, she was freaking daydreaming about being an executioner. Then Diana kills the Elders before they can kill her. Then Leona chases her. Then she gets possessed and suddenly she's cool again.

The problem with that is the middle section doesn't stay consistent with the character she was in her old lore, and people actually liked her in her old lore. But possibly more importantly it doesn't stay consistent with her character in the story they had just written. Maybe it could be explained better if we saw how she was corrupted over time, or something. But all we actually get is this jarring couple of sentences where she is fantasizing about being an executioner. Then voila , alien possession and suddenly she's like the old Leona again. But that all implies that Leona is only a good person now, because of her alien possession. Which takes the character development and growth away from the character the story is supposed to be about, and places it on a vague, uninteresting alien character that shows up at the end of the story and warps the character around itself.

I really am not a fan of how the Targon lore came out. The only one that did this well, in my opinion, was Taric. Because it took the time to set up the character, and why he chose his actions as opposed to just having the characters personality shift depending on what was necessary for the scene.

I want to point out again, that SHE NEVER SPECIFICALLY IS SAID TO REFUSE TO MURDER ATREUS. It's shown that THEY FOUGHT AND FOUGHT until the Solari ended it. So YES her personality IS all over the place, but it's also much, much worse...

Leona and Atreus fought beneath the blazing sun, and though both bled freely from dozens of wounds, neither could land a deathblow. As the sun dipped toward the horizon, an elder of the Solari marched into the Rakkor camp with three gold-armored warriors and called a halt to the duel.

From the lore. She didn't REFUSE TO KILL ATREUS. In the old lore, SHE WON....and said "no jerks, I'm not a murderer." Furthermore, we have more fun lore of them butchering her character:

Leona excelled in this disciplined environment, devouring her new faith’s teachings as a parched man in a desert seizes upon fresh water.

What?! First she's taught combat, then she shows mercy to a strange boy, then she decides to fight to the death, now she's DEVOURING THE TEACHINGS. Why? Why is this important, when she's been taught combat and mercilessness? Like, looking at the old Leona, they BUTCHERED her.

FInally, the end. That, I can say with with confidence, IS THE ONLY GOOD PART. Why? Because she now has new knowledge. Is that at all a good excuse? Fuck no....

And yes, you hit it right on the head. With the possession being the reason she's the old Leona, the Leona that we love, that is both an insult to Leona and an insult to us who play and are fans of Leona. It's a cruel way to give us what we want, because it's so easy to take it away. Her lore is barely better than Skarner's, and that's only because there actually is more than three fucking lines for her.

Legacy of XionNov 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What? Leona, Diana and Taric still have their personalities, they just got a super boost, like X-Men mutants. :3

Panth tho...

Leona doesn't? In her original lore she refused to kill her foe; now she fought until the Solari arrived. She was turned into a zealous bitch who wanted to kill Diana for a DIFFERENT VIEW and not HEY SHE SLAYED THE ELDERS.

Diana actually was more fleshed out and showed real remorse. They took away Leona's compassion and made her a zealous puppet of the Solari.

Her personality has been massively changed. Sadly, for the worse. I'm expecting Kayle to go from morally grey to pure evil and Morgana morally grey to pure good at this rate. Meh.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 3, 20161 votes

Well she was taught to praise the sun. I am not sure how she wouldn't be zealous after recieving instrucrion from the elders.

Only reason Diana didn't is becuase she has a connection to the moon which made her resist the teachings of the sun, qnd got her labeled a heretic.

Only people Leona killed in the new lore were invaders who ransacked multiple Rakkor villaiges. I doubt old Leona would be keen to show them mercy.

Also I think you have Kayle and Morgana the wrong way around. Kayle is the good guy while Morgana is the bad one. She's a fallen angel for a reason right ?

Legacy of XionNov 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well she was taught to praise the sun. I am not sure how she wouldn't be zealous after recieving instrucrion from the elders.

Only reason Diana didn't is becuase she has a connection to the moon which made her resist the teachings of the sun, qnd got her labeled a heretic.

Only people Leona killed in the new lore were invaders who ransacked multiple Rakkor villaiges. I doubt old Leona would be keen to show them mercy.

Also I think you have Kayle and Morgana the wrong way around. Kayle is the good guy while Morgana is the bad one. She's a fallen angel for a reason right ?

No man, I do know Kayle is the good one and Morgana is the bad one, but with how Riot has handled a lot of champions, I fear they'll turn Kayle from the justice-driven "grey" good to morally evil and turn Morgana from the grey "Evil" into "totally good" because they've been doing that shit. I want Kayle to remain "Lawful Evil" in the sense she dispenses justice to those who do not repent without mercy, with the chance to change her view on Runeterra, and Morgana being the "Chaotic Evil" who rebelled using dark arts and war to fight what she felt was a tyranny...that if you think about it, probably wasn't Kayle's fault in the first place.

I know Kayle = Good and Morgana = Evil but it'd be like Riot to fuck that up because LOL LET'S BREAK STEREOTYPES.

SincarnationNov 2, 20161 votes

I hope Riot works more on Morgana and Kayle, but I don't want them to be made into generic good angel vs evil angel. Make it Law vs Chaos I want Kayle to be an almost amoral tyrannical enforcer (not necessarily creator) of law, but she puts the law above all else (including her sister) right or wrong I want Morgana to be a rebel who was willing to do whatever it took (including learning dark forbidden soul rending magic) to fight for the freedom of what she views as her oppressed brethren. They both feel that they doing what is best for their people, and neither are willing to back down. Both of them have done bad shit for what they believe is the right reasons.

It would be INFINITELY more interesting than shoving them into generic archetypes

I've given this mini breakdown numerous times before, I can only hope that a Rioter reads this and considers it while their lore is being worked on.

Mira Arya EntheNov 2, 20162 votes

Except what you propose simply makes it good angel vs evil angel. Kayle being the evil one -.-

SincarnationNov 2, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=QnfA0LEZ,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-11-02T22:31:02.474+0000)

Except what you propose simply makes it good angel vs evil angel. Kayle being the evil one -.-

-_-

No, in DnD terms it makes Kayle an extreme LN and Morgana a CN Its not that Kayle is doing the wrong thing or being evil, she just follows the rules for any number of reasons. She could be one of those who believes that without the rule of law anarchy will reign, and by enforcing the law she is preventing her society from devolving into chaos. That doesn't make her evil, it could potentially make her a tool to be used by someone above her with power and bad intentions, and that might be largely as she views herself; as a weapon to be wielded for the Law. As the enforcer of the law she isn't responsible for the intent, she only cares about the infraction.

Morgana could be viewed as good, but its in the framing of her goals. Just because she views them as oppressed, are theyactually? Kayle's punishments may be harsh, but are they easy to commit, could they be viewed as necessary evils in their situation? At the end of the day Morgana is still yanking souls and causing agony to her enemies, is that right?

Its supposed to be morally grey, and how riot frames it is key. Outside information, who is the guy making the rules? His goals completely shift the narrative. Again both of them are people doing arguably bad things with good intentions.