A Discussion on Characterization: "They wouldn't act that way!"

ModCaptainMårvelous··16 votes·4,757 views

With the Bilgewater event done and some actual lore back on the table, I feel this is a topic worth revisiting because of how unique it is to the type of game League (And MoBAs in general) is. During Burning Tides, one of the most common criticisms and player disappointments was that they didn't feel these characters would act this way or speak like this. These aren't comments I dredged up from somewhere, this is just an example of the stuff I might see:

"Why would Graves call him TF!? A guy like graves wouldn't use slang!"

"Ugh Gangplank's swearing all the time it's really bothering me. I don't think he'd do that."

I don't really feel criticisms like this hold weight, simply because of how games like League treat characterization. Now, while some people may delve deep into lore, there's no denying that the average player is more interested in playing the game itself than delving into the lore. As an average player, choosing a character is less about story or gameplay and more about who looks interesting to pick up. Now, building off of this, players pick a character and jump right into a game to get a feel for this guy or gal.

Here comes the first issue of comparing story to the actual game: Riot has to "design" a character personality with about 10 minutes of VO. With such a limited amount of lines, this means characters end up falling onto tropes and similar routes. Take Vi for example. Her quotes and lines are generally a tomboy girl with some nerdy euphemisms (Punch first, ask questions while punching). The only other part of her personality that we're given in-game is that she calls her partner and colleague Caitlyn "Cupcake"...which has basically set the internet alight with shipping but let's avoid that for now.

The core point I want to make with this is that Vi, in a void, is given 2 strong character traits and we're told to work with them. So writers, artists and other fan types do. Caitlyn and Vi art is all over the net. Shameless plug but I essentially wrote an entire book about what I imagine these characters and more to be. These characters are easy to grasp and give a new player just enough characterization to get attached.

Only recently have we been getting multi-layered character VOs (I'm talking 10+ unique taunts) but even then that doesn't alleviate the problem of characterization. For another example, lemme use another MoBA I played: DoTA2. Skywrath Mage was one of my favorite characters. For the unaware, his lore is about how he pledged himself to serve his kingdom but ended up having to serve someone he hated after a coup. This is a pretty simple conflict of interests and his quotes reflect that: He soars high and is a powerful caster but he still yearns for the love he lost.

So why am I bringing up this? Because, quote-wise, you wouldn't think much in-game even with the enormous VO skywrath has. He calls a character his secret love, he serves his court, that's about the sum of it. The deeper story and characterizations are left for the reader to interpret. Now, this is fine! There's nothing wrong with making up an imaginary story or ideal for a character and thinking about how they would act outside the game. Where there seems to be a problem is when players are given a lore event or an in-game story that evolves or changes the character.

This is where problem number two comes in: Everything we give a character outside of official Riot lore is headcanon or simple fan interpretation. Don't mistake my words, the inklings are there, but the issue is that when Riot will release an official lore story or a change? People will become angry because now that character isn't 1:1 how they act. Using the Vi/Cait example again, let's say Vi is literally only calling Cait cupcake because it pisses Caitlyn off and it's funny to her. No romantic subtext, no secret romance, just friends jabbing at each other.

Now comes the two-way street: One, players will begrudgingly accept this. Two, players will flame against Riot and outright ignore the real canon for the head canon. Either way, this is lore now. We've gotten a deeper look at characters that have previously only had very minimal character traits. What upsets players is that these characters aren't exactly how they imagined them to be in the official world. This part is why Burning Tides upset some people: They wanted TF, Graves, Gangplank or MF to act exactly as they would in your head and when it didn't, there was disappointment that the head canon wasn't right.

Is this always bad? No, it's quite possible for new lore to be better than one's headcanon could ever imagine. The issue comes when players get mad that their personal beliefs are exactly what they turn out to be: Personal. In fact it might even hinder one's ability to produce fan art or fan fiction. Maybe that character you really adored turned out not to be someone you liked as a person. Maybe you find yourself sympathizing with your character's rival more than the character you adore?

At most, we can't be TOO upset that lore doesn't fit with how we imagine it unless we're talking a grievous oversight. We're free to criticize and more but to outright say our pictured ideal of a character is better than anyone elses isn't fair. The only difference between a fan fic writer and a lore writer is that one of them is on a payroll. They still love these characters and they make worlds with these characters but to say with utmost certainty that your idea of a character is completely and utterly better than anyone elses can be quite arrogant.

What do you guys think? Did Burning Tides fit exactly how these characters are in your head? Did one or two stand out as false? More so, what do you think about this post? Was the key point hit or do you think there's a little more to characterization? Please, lemme know and feel free to discuss among each other.

29 Comments

GreenLore7 votes

I think Viktor & Jayce or Diana & Leona (or the solari in general) are also a great example of this.

people sympathize a lot with Viktor and Diana,due to the awful things that happened to them,but this means that the moment these characters do something villainous,their fans(or at least some of them) get angry and call riot out on forcing these 2 into the role of the villain,when it is rather clear that these 2 were intended to be villains from the get go.

I've seen people outright defying the very words in the lore just to paint them in a better light(or alternatively making it look like jayce is an evil jerk who destroyed viktors lab for pity reasons and Leona look like a natural born killer,simply because she was born as a rakkor).

I am not saying that Viktor&Diana are cackling saturday cartoon villains,they are morally complex characters,but some of their fans paint them as unquestionably good guys.

Xulsigae3 votes

I think Morgana and Kayle and Noxus and Demacia and Syndra are in the same boat. There seems to be a backlash against years of 'obvious good' like Demacia and 'obvious evil' like Noxus to the point of trying to portray any 'obvious good' as precisely the opposite without much evidence for it. One could call it the Wicked Effect.

Awoof1 votes

Reminds me somewhat of people that think Riven is a reformed woman that now is "nice" and wants to help people and stuff like that.

Valaran Nara1 votes

{quoted}

Reminds me somewhat of people that think Riven is a reformed woman that now is "nice" and wants to help people and stuff like that.

Lol. The woman was a soldier first and foremost. No matter what, even if they're a generally "good person", they have still murdered and killed as an order from another person. Even if they leave that life, the only qualm they have about killing is "should I even bother?"

At the end of the day, if somebody challenges her to a fight to the death. She will say fuck it, and END them. No second thoughts about it.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

On the topic of Leona and Diana, here's an excerpt from a "Fantasy Writing Guide" I have. I immediately thought of Leona and Diana as I read it, and it really helps shed light on their places in their story. The analogy isn't perfect, I'll admit, but I'm sticking by it.

Sorry to say, guys, but Diana is a villain. She might see herself as the hero, but when she's up against Leona, it's pretty clear who sacrificed their morals to be in the right.

If the villain plans to murder the Chosen of Jublié because there is no clear successor and the Church of the Revealed Truth will descend into anarchy . . . we need to know why, so ask questions. Is he an evil genius, bent on world domination? (Please, tell me you're not going to try to rest on that old chestnut.) Is he still bitter about having been cast out of the Church of the Revealed Truth when he discovered that the eighth of the Fourteen Revelations was stolen from the Twentyfold Writings of Frogam, a heretical religion the Church of the Revealed Truth once led a crusade against? Now you're talking. His methods (murder) may make him a villain, but his history (the revelation of religious hypocrisy) makes him a murderer we can understand.

. . . Maybe no one now in service of the church had anything to do with the plagiarism, which was perpetuated centuries ago, and the church is in fact the greatest stabilizing influence our otherwise chaotic fantasy world has ever experienced. The Chosen of Jublié is an utterly altruistic heroine, a tireless champion of the common people, and if one little story in the ages-old scripture of her faith turns out to agree with a fraction of the heretical writing of a mad prophet, it won't erase the positive influence the rest has had on the world. At the same time, the villain's cult represents the darkest component of the human psyche, and fueled by the villain's overwhelming bitterness, it has resurrected human sacrifice and demon worship. Now we get why the he's doing it, but we'd rather he didn't.

Sharjo6 votes

This whole thing is actually something I'd see as an unfortunate side effect of the absence of progressive lore in League; very little characterization appears for these guys outside of their in game VO and their bios, and so players fill in the blanks themselves.

It's something I remember when Ekko was released and people complained about Ekko's VO having a taunt for him which goes "You're everything wrong with Zaun." People assumed it was Riot putting Viktor as the bad guy again when in reality this is how Ekko views Viktor. Ekko doesn't know Viktor, his past or anything, he would only have learned from hearsay and rumor, thus formulating an opinion himself. It seems weird but I felt like people jumped on that line and assumed Riot was making it fact, when in reality it was all opinion.

Because material on what these characters are like is exceptionally limited it causes people to make assumptions and fill in the blanks. This is one of those consequences of the lore drought I never actually considered, and now thinking about it I'm also guilty of. I have my own assumptions about champions that might be so wrong it's not even funny. My personal take on this notion is that until Riot writes up character pieces and starts fleshing out the lore these champions we're getting to know are very much blank slates with a few facts engraved in to them. I'm gonna take my sweet time and consider more points of view about some champions now because of this, ESPECIALLY those champions with really sucky in-game VO.

On the Burning Tides note, I feel like the those champions were written in ways I expected but also in ways I didn't consider. Something I think Riot did with T.F. here is they intentionally moved away from the characterization he was given as a result of Graves. To elaborate on what I mean, Graves did to TF what Jayce did to Viktor, and made a bad guy out of him as an excuse for a character relation. I feel like Riot wanted to move away from that because they ended up writing TF as the bad guy without giving him a side of the story that mentioned Graves at all, which only exacerbated the issue. I actually like that because it made TF more likable to me. Originally he was an wise arse, then when Graves came around he became an arse hole, now he's kinda back to being a wise arse. Gangplank was written as I expected from the VU; how he was always meant to be. Miss Fortune I feel came out a bit weird but it was because they didn't publish the long bio for her first, giving some context as to the woman she was at the time. If the Bio came first I feel it would've alleviated some of the concern I had there, but otherwise everything alligns. Given what her Bio says now, I'd kinda expect this of a woman who probably spent about 15-20 years seeking revenge. That shit makes people dark.

One big take away for me on Burning Tides though is there wasn't a lot of build up, it was kinda just there. The story was great but I feel like this was the chapter 10 of a story as opposed to the chapter 1 or 2. I would've preferred to see more of how TF and Graves lived in the intervening years, how Gangplank worked while he was in charge and how Miss Fortune became such a renowned bounty hunter. To draw a comparison, it's the difference between Yasuo's bio and his promo. The two told the same story but I personally feel the promo got it across way better than his bio, because the promo was way more personal and not just a summary. We can have both of course and it's helpful, but I'd have liked to see more relating to what we see in their bios. If we look all four of those guys got an extra paragraph or two added once Burning Tides ended. If we extrapolate and make every paragraph its own story we'd have a book right there.

Hopefully that made some sort of sense.

HaugheyPuck993 votes

{quoted}

ESPECIALLY those champions with really sucky in-game VO.

Aaaand that right there just reminded me of probably the biggest offender in the game when it comes to having quotes that in no way accurately describe anything about them and IN DESPERATE NEED OF A NEW VOICEOVER.

LOOKING AT YOU Kassadin

HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE THE SILENCE ANYMORE. THAT JOKE MAKES NO SENSE NOW.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

That may be true, but even when we had lore release with characters it wasn't much.

Take for example Yasuo's lore, which had a pretty lengthy story to go along with it:

Yasuo is a man of resolve, an agile swordsman who wields the wind itself to cut down his foes. But this once proud warrior has been disgraced by a false accusation and forced into a desperate fight for survival. With the world turned against him, he will do everything in his power to bring the guilty to justice and restore his honor.

Once a brilliant pupil at a renowned Ionian sword school, Yasuo was the only student in a generation to master the legendary wind technique. Many believed he was destined to become a great hero. However, his fate was changed forever when Noxus invaded. Yasuo was charged with guarding an Ionian Elder, but, foolishly believing his blade alone could make the difference, left his post to join the fray. By the time he returned, the Elder had been slain.

Disgraced, Yasuo willingly turned himself in, prepared to pay for his failure with his life. He was shocked, however, to find himself accused not just of dereliction, but of the murder itself. Though confused and racked with guilt, he knew the assassin would go unpunished if he did not act. Yasuo raised his sword against the school and fought his way free, knowing his treason would turn all of Ionia against him. Now truly alone for the first time in his life, he set out to find the Elder's real killer.

Yasuo spent the next several years wandering the land, seeking any clue that might lead him to the murderer. All the while, he was relentlessly hunted by his former allies, continually forced to fight or die. His mission drove him ever forward, until he was tracked down by the one foe he dreaded most – his own brother, Yone.

Bound by a common code of honor, the two warriors bowed and drew their swords. Silently they circled one another under the moonlight. When they finally charged forward, Yone was no match for Yasuo; with a single flash of steel he cut his brother down. Yasuo dropped his weapon and rushed to Yone's side.

Overcome with emotion, he demanded to know how his own kin could think him guilty. Yone spoke: “The Elder was killed by a wind technique. Who else could it be?” Understanding swept over Yasuo as he suddenly realized why he had been accused. He professed his innocence once more and begged his brother's forgiveness. Tears streamed down Yasuo's face as his brother passed in his arms.

Yasuo buried Yone under the rising sun, but could take no time to mourn. Others would be after him before long. His brother's revelation had given Yasuo newfound purpose; he now had the clue that would lead to the true killer. Swearing an oath, he gathered his belongings and, with one last look at Yone's grave, set out with the wind at his back.

This is pretty lengthy....buuuut it still only gives us the core motivation of a character up to this point. He was framed, he had to kill a lot of his old friends, now he wants to find who did it.

Does Yasuo have more characterization than others? Oh, I'd agree so. Still, his core motivation is rather small and I can imagine some people getting frustrated if Yas had a change of heart and forgave Riven. or even if he ended up having to abandon his quest to do something else of pressing importance.

CupcakeTrap6 votes

I think this is a somewhat complex issue that resists a simple answer.

Oversimplifying characters

I agree that people are often too quick to declare what a character "would do" or "would never do". People aren't that clean-cut. I deal with this a lot in Factions, when arguments start about how "Champion X would NEVER EVER EVER fight for Faction Y, because…" Very often, these are based on what I would consider improperly "mechanistic" views of Champion personalities. As someone on the Factions forums (AbiwonKenabi, I think?) insightfully observed, very often the key to an interesting character or storyline is incongruence. A Noxian who hates Demacians? That certainly can be done well, but it's somewhat bland by nature. A Noxian who admires Demacians? Now that's different. There's a "problem" there which provokes an explanation. That might end up being a better story, if done right. Or, for instance, "Make up a reason why Rumble might fight for Piltover"—that gets you thinking, a lot more so than "come up with some more insults Rumble could hurl at Pilts" or "think up new ways to describe Rumble torching humans with his flamethrower".

Different interpretations

I also agree that, for any given Champion, there are many different possible directions one could go with their "source material". One of the challenges, and joys, of writing fiction (as a community member) is that you've got to look at the raw material of a short lore snippet, an image, and some voicework, and think about different ways to interpret or elaborate upon that character. Very often, the range of possibilities is quite broad.

Example: Swain. I know some people view him as a charming manipulator who constantly tailors his expression and bearing for the greatest possible advantage, trending toward a somewhat darker version of the Patrician from Discworld. That's not the direction I went, but I don't think that interpretation is "wrong" in some objective sense. Rather, it's just not my reading of his character; I see Swain more as an "evil Dr. House", an iconoclastic genius with an axe to grind, who has considerable contempt for aristocratic finery and views blunt speech as a sign of strength. That's in part just a matter of my intuitive impression, and in part a matter of what I think makes for a more interesting addition to the cast of characters. But it's not a "right answer" sort of situation—you could come up with at least four of five variant takes on Swain from his VO/background, each roughly as plausible as the next.

Aside: Swain's boat

Speaking of Swain, I enjoyed the tidbit about Gangplank having stolen Swain's ship. But I think the community was maybe a bit too quick to therefore conclude that Gangplank and Swain are mortal enemies, or that Noxus and Bilgewater are hostile toward each other. I don't see Swain as the kind of guy to set a superpower's foreign policy based on who stole his boat twenty years ago. Sure, maybe he'll try to get even at some point, and it indicates that Swain and Gangplank probably aren't going to be best pals, but it's an overreaction to say that therefore any prior lore that had them interacting in a way other than trying to kill one another is "invalid". Context, people.

Riot-community relations

I have stronger reservations when it comes to the Riot-community relations aspect of what you're saying. One could caricature your position—inaccurately, I think—as "Riot shouldn't care about how the community has developed a character, and should feel totally free to blank-slate retcon everything if they don't like prior lore". That makes sense when you're, say, writing a book and going through drafts, but I disagree with that approach when it comes to a living universe that a community has already invested in.

I think Burning Tides was great in this respect. Yes, there were some new takes on characters, but for the most part, Riot accepted the challenge of developing these characters without massive retcons. The new Gangplank is certainly grimmer, but they lampshaded that a bit by inserting that part about his ship getting blown up and seeing MF start bulldozing his criminal empire—a lot of community lore that relied on Gangplank being a bit more swagger-y and even whimsical still works, provided you assume it happened before his ship blew up. The part about him having always been Pirate King is a retcon, yes, but a pretty natural one in light of the Great Retcon—I'd agree that, had there never been a League of Legends, Gangplank probably would have gone straight to becoming Pirate King, rather than devising a more complex international strategy.

I do, of course, agree with what I take to be your main point on Riot-community relations: that people should respect that authors have to make choices, and this may clash with choices other authors have made in the past.

Doctor Ivellius1 votes

{quoted}

I think this is a somewhat complex issue that resists a simple answer. ...

Aside: Swain's boat

Speaking of Swain, I enjoyed the tidbit about Gangplank having stolen Swain's ship. But I think the community was maybe a bit too quick to therefore conclude that Gangplank and Swain are mortal enemies, or that Noxus and Bilgewater are hostile toward each other. I don't see Swain as the kind of guy to set a superpower's foreign policy based on who stole his boat twenty years ago. Sure, maybe he'll try to get even at some point, and it indicates that Swain and Gangplank probably aren't going to be best pals, but it's an overreaction to say that therefore any prior lore that had them interacting in a way other than trying to kill one another is "invalid". Context, people.

I'd like to add, however, that based on what we might call "conservation of detail" Riot shouldn't be giving us information like that without expecting us to find it hugely important. They've said before that having too many of these connections makes the world feel small, so they should be showing us only the really impactful things.

Doing more world-building in general would help this feeling, though.

Marbelara2 votes

This is a really really good post filled with valuable information. Glorious upvote for you.

I hope that Riot will never stop with the gray morality once they started, to be honest. It's very realistic and easy to relate to, and gives the characters more flexibility. Veigar having a relation with Lulu? Draven having insecurities? Sivir doubting? With the gray morality in play, it's plausible, while taking nothing away from their primary characteristics of the characters.

I wish the community adapted to these ideals as well, instead of being stubborn and treating the characters, nations, etc. as if they had a split personality and were either one or the other instead of both at the same time. Lux's judgment uncovered a grim side to Demacia, but it's not like Demacia isn't the big good place in the world, moreover than any other nation. On the other hand, it's impossible for it to not be tainted, as it's made to be powerful - and power comes with a price.

Also, the gray and gray morality explores the villains just too well, way beyond their 'BAD FOR LULZ' status. And League has plenty of villains.

CupcakeTrap4 votes

{quoted}

This is a really really good post filled with valuable information. Glorious upvote for you.

Aw, shucks. Thank you! Good to know my procrastination sometimes has positive results.

{quoted}

I hope that Riot will never stop with the gray morality once they started, to be honest. It's very realistic and easy to relate to, and gives the characters more flexibility. Veigar having a relation with Lulu? Draven having insecurities? Sivir doubting? With the gray morality in play, it's plausible, while taking nothing away from their primary characteristics of the characters.

I mean, I sort of hesitate to use the phrase "gray morality". My preferred visual symbol is the yin-yang symbol. I think LoL is less suited for "gray morality" and more suited for, one might say, "mixed black-and-white morality".

{quoted}

I wish the community adapted to these ideals as well, instead of being stubborn and treating the characters, nations, etc. as if they had a split personality and were either one or the other instead of both at the same time. Lux's judgment uncovered a grim side to Demacia, but it's not like Demacia isn't the big good place in the world, moreover than any other nation. On the other hand, it's impossible for it to not be tainted, as it's made to be powerful - and power comes with a price.

Demacia and Noxus are my favorite yin-yang examples. I think it would be a mistake to portray Demacia and Noxus as both so thoroughly gray that they're interchangeable. This is an old trope—deromanticizing the idea of "valiant heroes and wicked villains", showing that self-proclaimed "heroes" are charlatans and liars, that nobody really lives up to the ideals they espouse, that power always corrupts, the failure of human aspirations in the mire of human weakness, and all that. It's not a bad trope, but I think it's a terrible fit for League. When I first encountered this idea as a teenager, I loved it, because it was brand new, and so iconoclastic. But now I find it rather trite, even smug. It's a very socially informed revision of fantasy, and that has its place, but I see League as more a celebration of vivid fantasy tropes than a dismantling of them. Edge points aren't the end-all, be-all of making good fiction.

Sorry, I got kind of abstract there. Let me jump back to Demacia and Noxus.

I see Demacia as "big damn heroes" (with a touch of darkness), and Noxus as "diabolical villains" (who are nonetheless admirable in their way). Demacia is white with a splash of black, and Noxus is black with a splash of white. No, this is not an accurate portrayal of RL human history. The European regimes that Demacia is derived from were not Demacia. I see Demacia as a fantastic exploration of, "What if knights in shining armor really existed?" The dark side of Demacia is not hypocrisy; the dark side of Demacia is that they really do believe what they say, and what they believe in is an aggressive commitment to order and righteousness that views individuality (and individuals) as expendable parts in a machine. Likewise, Noxus is in some ways derived from a "Blood Knight" caricature. Their good side is not that they're really just ordinary people pretending to be big scary monsters. Their good (or at least admirable) side is that they DO believe what they say, and although their obsession with struggle and strength runs counter to most RL systems of morality, there's something meaningful there. Why ARE we obsessed with the "make everyone comfortable and happy" utilitarian moral framework?

Some say, "But that's not how it really WORKS. People aren't really good or bad. People are just people!" Sure. But magical swords and dragons don't exist either. Fantasy is a "what if" exercise, or else it's just dressed-up historical soapboxing. (This is part of why, although I respect George R.R. Martin as a talented writer and storyteller, I'm not really excited by his universe. The soapbox factor weirds me out. One book demolishing and deconstructing classical fantasy tropes is interesting; a whole series is overkill. It's like Alan Moore's gripe about how "I wrote Watchmen in a bad mood, and people have been imitating my bad mood ever since.") I don't think League is a good universe for dark-and-gritty "realistic" storytelling. I see it as a high-magic, high-fantasy, broad-strokes universe that befits its "throw all the toys in the sandbox" origins. (League is basically a fuller expression of the "who would win in a fight? A Jedi or a dragon or a robot or a werewolf?" concept. And I love that.)

Not to sound too defensive, but in response to arguments that this makes Noxus out to be "the bad guys", and quite unfairly beats them up with authorial powers—well, yes, I think Noxians are "the bad guys". Bad guys are fucking awesome. Think Darth Vader or the Emperor from Star Wars. "A healthy obsession with evil" is, IMO, key to writing Noxus well. The "good guy" perspective is built largely upon suppressing one's "darker" instincts—anger, hatred, sadism, selfishness. But these are real parts of the human psyche. And contrary to the "good guy" ideology that Demacia espouses, they're not always "bad". They can be a real source of power. And they affirm the individual that Demacian ethics would erase or subordinate.

So, tl;dr: I'm a much bigger believer in "yin-yang" black/white mixed morality than blurred-together "gray morality", at least for factions like Demacia and Noxus. They're "moral superheroes" who embody these competing ideologies much more intensely than RL humans are capable of. That makes them both awesome in their own way, and gives them each their own points of contrast. Demacia is goodness and compassion and righteousness, but a lot of humanity is sacrificed along the way. Noxus is power and freedom and gleeful supremacy, but that kind of "high" burns you out and over time can twist you into a cruel monster. That's just one way to summarize it, and I'm not at all sure it's the best way. But yeah. That's how I see it.

Xulsigae3 votes

Sounds like the Wicked Effect is in play with Demacia/Noxus. 'Evil' characters are being reimagined as 'differently good' and good characters as 'secretly evil.' While this can be a fun thing to play with, at times I find it disturbing. A real life example is some people's fascination with Charles Manson and his writings. Some will make excuses for his murders with 'Oh but he's just a tortured soul! Society is to blame.' On the other end some will try to portray Gandhi as a bad person for his treatment of his wife and his antisemitism. While he certainly had many faults and they should be acknowledged, his positive impact and writings don't make him bad.

In Runeterra, the characters get similar treatment. Syndra has been described by some as mistreated by society and morally right in her killing of her mentor, Kayle seen as tyrannical and ruthless, Noxus as a nice place to live because of a meritocratic system, Demacia as a terrible place because of strict rules and monarchy etc. To me, excusing a murder is a very hard thing to do, and Syndra committed a terrible act by doing so. Kayle is only known as tyrannical from the point of view of Morgana and we don't (as far as I know) have other evidence for Kayle's acts. Noxus isn't exactly meritocratic and I don't think many, if any, people who support them would have much of a chance in Noxus due to not being psychopathic in their mentality. Monarchies aren't automatically bad (especially in fiction, King Arthur being a prime example) and breaking strict rules in Demacia aren't all capital offenses. /rant. Sorry about that.

One of the actually morally grey people I know of in real history was Fritz Haber. He invented both the way that much of our fertilizer is produced (and therefore has saved the lives of millions, if not billions of people), and terrible weapons in chemical warfare in WWI. He enjoyed both aspects of his work. It's hard to say if he was good or bad because of his actions and attitude towards his work. I honestly want Singed to be pretty much the same sort of character. He enjoys his work and produces both wonderful chemicals that save lives, and terrible weapons of war. I think too many mad scientists in fiction are portrayed as amoral without redeeming characteristics, when in fact they can be both life savers and life takers.

Marbelara2 votes

I see. And, yikes, it seems that by gray and gray morality, you though I meant both the same grays, that would show both the sides as equals. While in case of some characters (such as the bilgewater ones) that's an interesting thing to apply, what I actually meant was a not-completely-pure white and not-quite-vanta-black black ;w;

Aka not pure stereotyping, allowing some additional depth.

Aka, the ying-yang effect.

Siiiiigh. Now I feel silly. And understand why you don't like that term.

My point was mostly though, that it's sad that when the predominantly morally 'white' or 'black' character (or nation) gets some touch of the other aspect to turn into a yin and yang, the fandom often splits into two, unsure if the character is really 'good' or really 'bad' now. I saw syndra get this treatment. And they sometimes fail to acknowledge that they're both right and that the character is a yin, in Syndra's case.

Thank you very much for your reply!

Ethereal3111 votes

Aside: Swain's boat Speaking of Swain, I enjoyed the tidbit about Gangplank having stolen Swain's ship. But I think the community was maybe a bit too quick to therefore conclude that Gangplank and Swain are mortal enemies, or that Noxus and Bilgewater are hostile toward each other. I don't see Swain as the kind of guy to set a superpower's foreign policy based on who stole his boat twenty years ago. Sure, maybe he'll try to get even at some point, and it indicates that Swain and Gangplank probably aren't going to be best pals, but it's an overreaction to say that therefore any prior lore that had them interacting in a way other than trying to kill one another is "invalid". Context, people.

I have a strange feeling that you might have read my Power Vacuum fanfiction I posted on the Creations boards a while ago where Swain talks through a puppet to the injured GP about the implications of GP losing power in Bilgewater that could have been a ton better. Got to love politics sometimes though.

Valaran Nara4 votes

I love how near the end, when Graves and TF were floating in the water, Graves looked at the other and was like, "Why Twisted Fate?"

Like, he was questioning why he would even bother calling himself that.

People assumed that Graves was always saying TF which is short for Twisted Fate. Nope. His name was Tobias F[insert name here] He did it like he straight up refuse to acknowledge something so stupid.

I also like how they handled MF. Mostly because she, technically kept that flirty seducer vibe when she was throwing on a show for the good ol' boys back at the tavern, but, at the end of the day, she was a cold-hearted bounty hunter. Sure, she may seem super dark and super serious, but then again, she was technically always like that on the job. The cutesy looks was only to get people to drop their guard. To UNDERESTIMATE her.

The fact that she wasn't satisfied or just felt empty and meaningless after killing GP shows that her hate ran WAY deeper than anybody expected. She didn't lose her "life purpose" that she worked for since she was a child. Nope. It's still thriving, filled with even more rage because there's still more. More of those who dared to help the one being she loathed. Scary thing is, when she finally kills all who is loyal to GP, I don't think she'll be satisfied. Not. At. All.

RiotRiotJaredan6 votes

She has a lot left to do, no doubt of that. Great discussion, by the way.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

Thanks m8. Unless you're talking to Valaran. In which case I remove all praise and demand you get to work on the next event.

DIS AINT A GAME. Well, it is. BUT IT'S A SERIOUS GAME. SRS.

Impetual1 votes

Thanks for your famous non-answer Riot!

We can always count on you for that!

2nd Fiddle4 votes

{quoted}

Here comes the first issue of comparing story to the actual game: Riot has to "design" a character personality with about 10 minutes of VO. With such a limited amount of lines, this means characters end up falling onto tropes and similar routes. Take Vi for example. Her quotes and lines are generally a tomboy girl with some nerdy euphemisms (Punch first, ask questions while punching). The only other part of her personality that we're given in-game is that she calls her partner and colleague Caitlyn "Cupcake"...which has basically set the internet alight with shipping but let's avoid that for now.

The core point I want to make with this is that Vi, in a void, is given 2 strong character traits and we're told to work with them. So writers, artists and other fan types do. Caitlyn and Vi art is all over the net. Shameless plug but I essentially wrote an entire book about what I imagine these characters and more to be. These characters are easy to grasp and give a new player just enough characterization to get attached.

Vi is an interesting example for this because there is one more piece of characterization for her: Mayhem Everywhere You Look.

At the time, I remember people thinking that it didn't sound like Vi was talking. The big reason for this was that Vi's reaction didn't seem justified by context, because we hadn't really seen the context.

I guess what I'm saying is: if appropriate context is given for personality shifts, I will accept them.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

That's a totally fair point as well and I forgot about that teaser!

ThatShadowGuy4 votes

{quoted}

Maybe that character you really adored turned out not to be someone you liked as a person. Maybe you find yourself sympathizing with your character's rival more than the character you adore?

...why do i feel like this is directed at me

As far as characterization goes, Burning Tides got Graves and TF spot on. Gangplank had a few changes (scrimshaw as a hobby), but these were mostly additions and fit him pretty well. MF still sticks out as something that bothers me.

To be fair, part of this is the issue that her VO's pretty outdated. You'd be forgiven for thinking 'flirty bounty hunter' was all there was to her based on ingame experience alone. And I really like the idea that this side of her's just a mask she wears to gain popularity and influence. One of the greatest ironies of Burning Tides, in my opinion, is that between Graves and Miss Fortune, the one more seemingly hellbent on revenge doesn't go through with it, and the one seemingly more levelheaded enacts something far more vicious.

My only concern is that Riot's going a bit too far in trying to convince us that they can pull off dark and edgy stories. There's nothing wrong with, say, describing a man being flayed alive and having his bones carved out, but Gangplank and Miss Fortune are both so morally dubious at this point that I don't feel comfortable rooting for either of them. If Bilgewater's fate is in their hands, well, Bilgewater is going to hell (quite possibly in a fairly literal sense, seeing as the Harrowing's not far away). And it gets to the point where there's so much death and misery that you really just can't care anymore.

TL;DR, characterization is fine for the most part thus far, and I think this is a pretty good point to bring up in general. I just feel like in Miss Fortune's case it has a negative effect on the overarching story.

HaugheyPuck993 votes

When I read the entirety of the burning tides lore, the only thing that seemed out of character from anyone to me was when MF said she wanted GP's corpse, but I had never read MF's lore before then, so that's why. But I think the best example of what you're saying here is Alistar.

A couple months after I bought Alistar I was getting into a discussion about lore with a friend of mine and he explained Alistar's to me, which changed my whole view on the bull. I had a lot more respect for him as a character after that. His quotes and his lore tell two totally different stories.

Also Viktor , if you haven't read his lore then he just seems like another stereotypical psycho from Zaun, but when you actually do read it you realize "oh shit, I'd be pissed if somebody stole all the credit for my inventions like that too." And since Viktor was the head of the team that built Blitzcrank, he obviously had a strong part in developing Blitz's personality. I feel like Blitz's lore gives a bit of insight into what kind of person Viktor was before Professor Stanwick drove him mad.

"Though Blitzcrank may batter anything that stands in his way, he really has a heart of gold...encased in a framework of iron...in a carapace of steel."

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

On the topic of Leona and Diana, here's an excerpt from a "Fantasy Writing Guide" I have. I immediately thought of Leona and Diana as I read it, and it really helps shed light on their places in their story. The analogy isn't perfect, I'll admit, but I'm sticking by it.

Sorry to say, guys, but Diana is a villain. She might see herself as the hero, but when she's up against Leona, it's pretty clear who sacrificed their morals to be in the right.

If the villain plans to murder the Chosen of Jublié because there is no clear successor and the Church of the Revealed Truth will descend into anarchy . . . we need to know why, so ask questions. Is he an evil genius, bent on world domination? (Please, tell me you're not going to try to rest on that old chestnut.) Is he still bitter about having been cast out of the Church of the Revealed Truth when he discovered that the eighth of the Fourteen Revelations was stolen from the Twentyfold Writings of Frogam, a heretical religion the Church of the Revealed Truth once led a crusade against? Now you're talking. His methods (murder) may make him a villain, but his history (the revelation of religious hypocrisy) makes him a murderer we can understand.

. . . Maybe no one now in service of the church had anything to do with the plagiarism, which was perpetuated centuries ago, and the church is in fact the greatest stabilizing influence our otherwise chaotic fantasy world has ever experienced. The Chosen of Jublié is an utterly altruistic heroine, a tireless champion of the common people, and if one little story in the ages-old scripture of her faith turns out to agree with a fraction of the heretical writing of a mad prophet, it won't erase the positive influence the rest has had on the world. At the same time, the villain's cult represents the darkest component of the human psyche, and fueled by the villain's overwhelming bitterness, it has resurrected human sacrifice and demon worship. Now we get why the he's doing it, but we'd rather he didn't.

Tahyana1 votes

As far as Gankplank is concerned. He is a pirate. Why _wouldn't _he curse? He crass, he loots, pillages and carves on the bones of people that are still breathing. Why wouldn't he curse?

Sincarnation1 votes

People dont deal with moral ambiguity well sadly, and many times that is where the "out of character" perceptions can come from. Its personally why I want more information on Diana/Leona, Riven/Yasuo, and more than the other two Morgana/Kayle. Everyone has vastly different perceptions of each character, and that almost makes me afraid for more lore development. Like as much as I want more info on Kayle and Morg, I REALLY dont want Morg to be turned into generic villian and kayle generic hero. I liked the idea of it being a chaos vs law conflict where Morgana decides "the ends justify the means" resorting to black magic to free her people, straight good vs evil is boring as fuck.

In regards to Bilgewater, MF was the only thing that seemed slightly out of character, but I'm fairly certain that was an intentional decision to show EXACTLY how much she hates Gangplank. Even her 2nd in command was like wtf, I've heard those orders before but I never thought i would hear them from her. The deliberateness of the act makes me more ok with it because it expands the understanding of the character, and it creates interesting scale. Like how big of a shit storm is the harrowing that MF actually teams up with Gangplank to save Bilgewater because we know that would only be an absolute last resort.

Dreamspitter1 votes

Gangplank should swear like a pirate.

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