@Narrative. What do you think about Tryndamere and Olaf being from the same tribe?

Garentheon··8 votes·10,815 views

-They both wear horned helmets -They both don't wear much clothing -They both have ults that make them go into a "rage-like" mode that makes it difficult for them to die

I think it's an opportunity to explain why they have those helmets, are dressed so little (tribe has strong resistance to cold?), why they have those abilities (ults), etc. And also to help bring some consistency with the many Freljord champions

And just because they're from the same tribe it doesn't mean they're buddy buddy all of a sudden. Tryndamere is still Tryndamere. Olaf is till Olaf

I think from a narrative standpoint it'd be an awesome opportunity. Just my 2 cents

62 Comments

RiotWAAARGHbobo16 votes

My perspective is completely tied to the goals of champion team, so I can see your point. While I love visual clarity for characters and theme, I think Olaf is in need of VU and to lesser extent so is Tryn. (Both seem stable in gameplay terms (though #notmydepartment) So rather than putting them together, I would instead love to see greater visual difference between them.

From the lore perspective, Olaf is an important figure in the Winter's Claw, under Sejuani while Tryndamere is "closely allied" with Ashe. Eventually these tribal affiliations hopefully will also further visually separate these two warriors.

And finally if champup does get around to redoing these two (again #notmydepartment) I would love to see the different personalities further highlighted in VO and gameplay. Tryndamere is young berserker-- his anger pushes him beyond normal human limits. It defines him and its power allows him to survive things a normal man wouldn't. Tryn still has a lot to learn about the world and what is worth fighting for.
Olaf, however I would say is old warrior at more peace with his emotions. He likes fighting. He's pretty happy and his search for a "worthy" death reflects this. (An Freudian death drive). Olaf's not trying to prove himself or avenge anyone.

Ebonmaw Dragon2 votes

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiit..... Tryndamere is YOUNGER than Olaf? ... i thought that he was older...

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Really? Tryndamere looks like.. 20? To me.. While olaf looks more like he's somewhere between 30 and 40...

Oleandervine8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=M7AcAb6f,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-07-03T18:58:03.905+0000)

Really? Tryndamere looks like.. 20? To me.. While olaf looks more like he's somewhere between 30 and 40...

I always thought Tryndamere was old, until I saw his portrayal in Pool Party Fiora. I wouldn't have guessed he was that young, and maybe the Champup team needs to work on portraying his youthful age in a better way in looks and splash.

Star Guardían1 votes

Trynd looks mid to late 30s. Since Olaf wants to die already before he becomes old and senile, I'm guessing he's 50ish.

Neamean1 votes

Although Olaf might be older than Tryn I'd say he is more immature. Driven by his vengeance Tryndamere is quite mature he even united the barbarian tribe while Olaf is more about seeking his honorable death which could be consider young and brash or I am playing Brolaf too much and it screwing with my perception of what Olaf truly is XD.

Ralanr1 votes

Olaf is more inwardly focused I imagine. Though Tryndamyre has the whole Aatrox vengeance thing that needs to be explored more.

Decrit1 votes

Why Trynda has vengeance toward Aatrox? He helped him, event thought that is a thing with leaves much stuff to desire obviously.

Ralanr3 votes

Killing your family kinda does that.

Decrit1 votes

holy shit forgot aatrox was the one who sent/aided the raiders that attacked him.

a little detail that slipped away eh? :P

redfeenix2 votes

Hey can you explain what a Writer does ? Like just basic responsibilities.

Another question I had was: are abilties designed to match the champion thematic , or is the theme changed to match the abilties. which is done first.

Thanks Lets see a Zaun lore drop next, thats my favourite region in the game (viktor, zac =D )

RiotRiotJaredan7 votes

A Narrative Writer's responsibilities change depending on the team. For Champion, the Narrative person is a member of the core DNA team of the ideation phase of a champ (Design, Narrative, Art, being the three components). Working with the rest of the team, the DNA pod are responsible for the core development of the character's archetype, personality, kit, and look. For Narrative, it involves a lot of research, utilizing references in relevant genres and making them something unique, developing story sketches (which are like concept art, so concept story) to hone in on the core character and get feedback and alignment with the rest of the team. Then, once the concept is fleshed out and approved, the Narrative writer assists in production through creative alignment, writing deliverables such as the audition documents for the voice actor, participating in the VO records to help determine the best performance and choice of actor, and then writing the bulk of the VO script for the final record. The Narrative member of the team will also be at the final record to assist the editor and director in hitting the right delivery of the lines to stay true to the intended core of the Champ. Then, of course, there are the deliverables such as the bio and the color text (which we need a better name for) and any work needed in support of the Promo team for the Champ. Each Narrative writer is working on at least two Champs at the same time.

For your second question, they both influence each other. Gameplay is paramount, but the character of the champ (lore is a different, tertiary thing) influences how they express what they do, and vice versa. It all should stem from a theme of who the Champ is. Each part (Voice, appearance, abilities, movement etc.) should feel a part of the cohesive whole.

redfeenix1 votes

What a nice thorough answer explaining your team's job, thank you !

I always refered to you guys as the lore team, but turns out you guys are just as important as designers eh ! I'm curious to know where the boundary between a writer's and designer's jobs are.

Just had a few clarifications:

Working with the rest of the team, the DNA pod are responsible for the core development of the character's archetype, personality, kit, and look.

The characters in league are way more unique than other mobas. Please keep up your creativity. Some of my favs: Zac, Sion, Jinx. Very unique personalities and designs. An undead zombie, and a blob. lol. However, I think you guys can go more out of the box, eh? Look at Heroes like abathur, Lost Vikings, and Cho'gall. I know League can release super unique and cool champs like that too =)

Has there been a lot of techinical limiations on your creativity? IE reaaaally cool idea but it wouldnt be balanced/ cant be programmed.

writing deliverables such as the audition documents for the voice actor, participating in the VO records to help determine the best performance and choice of actor, and then writing the bulk of the VO script for the final record.

Now this is very interesting!! I wonder if you'd go more in depth of how the behind the scenes of the VOs work. Also could you please add more banter between champions? Those are really cool and make me chuckle.

there are the deliverables such as the bio and the color text

what does color text mean?

Narration sounds like a really cool, creative team that drives the identity of this game. I dont think most players know what you guys actually do lol.

I'd look forward to talking about your design process , what you look for in new champs, how you guys should differentiate our existing champs more etc . Sounds like a really cool job tbh!

Thanks for taking the time to answer, now go enjoy your holiday =D

Jaghatai5 votes

@Jaredan

I teach Game at my university and have done so at other schools. One of the lessons we often teach young game makers is "Make a game not a narrative" because often narrative gets in the way of the game and vice versa. You end up trying to shoehorn mechanics to fit the story and try to shoehorn story to fit the mechanics. So we teach make the game first and then write a narrative to fit the game.

I've seen this backed up in other places such as the Castlevania developers answering questions around when "Julius Belmont" would get his story told saying things like "When I have a game that I think will fit that story, I will tell the story"

What's your take on this? Have you experienced anything like this? I'd be curious about examples where Story and Mechanics just merged perfectly and when they caused problems for each-other.

If you choose to respond - can I use your responses in my game lectures?

RiotWAAARGHbobo12 votes

I think I can answer this.

A game does not, generally speaking, need to be about a narrative. (Despite our department's name) But a game benefits from a coherent theme and having a feeling that it is trying to get across. ( In broadest terms is the game a playful puzzle? Or a horror story?)

Creating a theme and mood requires a robust internal logic the player can "grok" without having to spend a lot of time on. The traditional narrative tools of character, tone, and world-building are efficient ways: to deepen a game's emotional response, help define that internal logic, and make a better overall experience for the player. (i.e. Though enjoyment of Pong and GTA5 may be equivalent. The depth of emotions and experience is not.) This work is surprisingly subtle but it needs to be absolutely coherent, specific, and mirror the gameplay.

To use a old media analogy a film director does not technically need a writer to tell a story. Wong Kar Wai, Goddard, Micheal Bay, and many other directors will often just go out and shot stuff by the seat of their pants. Some of those movies are trash (TransF2) some of them are masterpieces (Chung King Express). But very often those types of shoots are over-budget, wasteful, and very time consuming. When the hollywood studio system matured, having a good script became a component of making a film because it better served the desires of the audience, marketing, the needs of production planning, scheduling, and budgeting . Directors go "off script" all the time-- but the script helps a large, expensive team know what they are doing.

Now games are new art form and are a different beast than the linear narrative of film, so the needs are different.

On Champion team for LoL we use what are called "story sketches." -These are short stories written after many long discussions with the Game Designer and Artist. The story is written for them. In general the plot doesn't really mater instead it tries to capture the feeling of the character we have in development, in all of their messy emotional abstractness. Often we write many, many, many of these stories. They inspire gameplay and art but we write new ones as the art and gameplay change. The last stories help all of the departments understand what feeling we are trying to create with this champ. (The power fantasy, the humor, edginess etc...)

But the stories sketches we make for champs are not prescriptive. They are made at the same time as the artist and designer are working. And they are made primarily to spur conversation. So the team is asking the right questions and getting aligned. In our case we don't worry about story = gameplay. We worry about character/feeling/theme helping create and explain understandable gameplay.

hope that helps.

Valor Bot2 votes

{quoted}

On Champion team for LoL we use what are called "story sketches." -These are short stories written after many long discussions with the Game Designer and Artist. The story is written for them. In general the plot doesn't really mater instead it tries to capture the feeling of the character we have in development, in all of their messy emotional abstractness. Often we write many, many, many of these stories. They inspire gameplay and art but we write new ones as the art and gameplay change. The last stories help all of the departments understand what feeling we are trying to create with this champ. (The power fantasy, the humor, edginess etc...)

But the stories sketches we make for champs are not prescriptive. They are made at the same time as the artist and designer are working. And they are made primarily to spur conversation. So the team is asking the right questions and getting aligned. In our case we don't worry about story = gameplay. We worry about character/feeling/theme helping create and explain understandable gameplay.

Hey Waaarghbobo, thanks for all the insight. I'd love to read or hear more about these Champion story sketches, even if they're incomplete and/or not exactly applicable to the Champions in question anymore. Any chance we'll ever get to see these?

RiotWAAARGHbobo4 votes

I would love too. In particular the many pre-catfish devil/darkin Tahm Kench stories are hilariously macabre. But release decisions is above my pay-grade. I think there are thoughts of showing some behind the scenes stuff on champs at some-point. (Including early concept art etc.) But I donno where it's at on priorities.

But with all things, Rito management listens. If you make noise she will listen and deliver. (though it sometimes takes a long while)

nosafterburn1 votes

in all honesty I read that last line as "..she will listen and devour" and I thought nice Kench pun, but I was sadly mistaken.

Brutusness1 votes

Wait.

Did you just confirm Tahm Kench is a darkin?

CONFIRMED.

RiotWAAARGHbobo4 votes

ha ha ha.

no.

There was a story where Tahm (before the name) was a she. And she was Aatrox's lover. And to see her true form was madness. Kinda a cthutul meets egyptian vampire thing. It was a strange story.

Oakleaf Ranger2 votes

Riot confirmed that aattrox is a vampire

Brutusness2 votes

Who wrote that. Did you guys sneak into Jaredan's story folder for his upcoming erotic god-monster romance novel?

RiotRiotJaredan7 votes

I'm very confused. /checks folder Ah, carry on.

RiotWAAARGHbobo3 votes

Hah!

In general, only the narrative team member assigned to that champ writes the story sketchs. Sometimes staff get moved around, or people volunteer to help. (Matt Dunn volunteered time to write one sketch for Tahm)

I think Tahm kench might have the record for number of sketches i wrote for a single champ. Certainly more than a dozen very different sketches, long before we had a direction. Then three that were written during production to answer how whimisical vs dark he should be.

Decrit3 votes

So. Kawaii.

redfeenix4 votes

Rito management listens

wait what you guys have managers at riot o.0. And they listen?

Joking aside, I think that would be cool because you know we just see the finished product. the final champion release.

However i'd like to know the steps. the ideation phase, or designig a thematic, or changing his skills, voiceover etc.

I'm sure there is a lot of work going into champion creation, I'd like to see more from behind the scenes and things like Oh This team x for this champ, this other team did y, these guys offered these services/skills.

Think it would be cool to see how the pieces come together to make a new champ.

RiotRiotJaredan4 votes

We're working on something in this area.

redfeenix1 votes

You guys do a community stream? Think it would be cool for you to share some stuff while we ask questions in chat. Honestly I'm very curious about narration... so yeah come stream sometime like the art guys do.

RiotRiotJaredan2 votes

Yup, it's in the works.

Ludovico2 votes

You are probably sleeping right now, but maybe you´ll read this once you wake up and had some nice breakfast^^:

How about coming to the League Art Stream? Kaiser and Pheonix talked a lot about bringing in other Rioters from different departments (Narrative being on of them iirc). The atmosphere is always really relaxed, and I think it´d be fun!

It´s also not rly about "publishing" or something, if RiotPheonix can openly try and make Leonas AA look like it´s from the Shadow Isles^^.

RiotRiotJaredan3 votes

Yup, it's something we've chatted with the team about, I'll remind them this week.

DeathBurst2 votes

Hum, I'm quite surprised that no one has made this post yet, but...

As far as I'm concerned, consider noise made and interest for early story sketches expressed. Would love to learn more about the different variations that lead to the champs we know today.

RiotRiotJaredan3 votes

Yup, it's something we've had in mind for a while. We're just looking for the best opportunity to put some things together, which reminds me of a meeting I've got this week. It's in the works, but no definite release window as of yet. We may release some of them as part of an effort to show the kind of work we're doing on Narrative that's coming up.

redfeenix1 votes

doesnt even have to be a huge published piece. Even a few pictures or a few words is fine... anything you wanna share really.

Jaghatai1 votes

Thank you so much for the response! Do you mind if I use your responses in class?

RiotRiotJaredan1 votes

Feel free!

RiotRiotJaredan7 votes

Just to add to WAAARGHBobo's thoughts:

I think changing the way a game plays overall to suit a plot doesn't make a lot of sense in the vast majority of cases, that's pretty much a given. However, there's a separate question about when to involve a Narrative writer in the process, as writing a plot is just one aspect of the role that we can play in game development (we are all developers, after all).

There's an ongoing occurrence in the game industry known as the Narrative Paramedic issue, (Rhianna Pratchett called this out and speaks on this matter much more eloquently than I) where Narrative writers are brought in near the end of a project to write words to put in the mouths of characters to make them, and the world of the game, make sense.

To give you a hypothetical example of how that can be an issue, imagine you are building a game. Around the table of developers you have game designers figuring out what the world of the game will be. The designers (as happens and is still espoused by some) figure out not just the gameplay on their own, they also figure out what the main themes of the world will be, what the specific themes and unique aspects of each society or area will be, who the main characters will be, etc. and decide they have something very cool. They bring in artists who then make it look cool and move beautifully.

They then turn to the fellow who has been sitting patiently in the corner and say "Hey, George R.R. Martin, write barks for our characters would you? There's a dear chap."

It's a clumsy example, I know, it's meant to outline a seemingly obvious proposition (if you like George R.R. Martin, anyway): If you have someone whose craft is thematic cohesion, world building, character development and so on. why wouldn't you have that person in early to work on those elements of the game? They are aspects that are sublimated through every piece of a game experience, whether you see it on the first read or not.

Working as a team in collaboration, the designer, the artist, the narrative writer and beyond, can reinforce each element of the whole and make each element and team member better. The experience of the game is paramount, but not utilizing the craftspeople you have at your disposal until after you've made choices that will a) likely be not as good as if you'd brought them in to start with and b) inhibit what they're able to do when you do bring them in, would seem to be sub-optimal.

If each discipline has strengths that they can bring to the table, why not invite them?

The 'slows us down' argument is one that I understand. We have have found, however, that the time saved by moving forward without that thematic cohesion baked in from the beginning means that you lose time due to creative misalignment later in production when it's much more painful to make changes. Or you just have to make do with what you have and send for the Narrative Paramedic. Again, that just doesn't seem to be ideal to me. And though I admit to being a bit of an idealist, ideals are useless if they're not practical, if they don't work in reality.

We just find that they do.

It's why we work the way we do on League. We had exactly the same problems with late stage involvement or poor communication and collaboration between different disciplines, which caused thematically discordant champions either through contradictory motivations, inconsistent themes across VO, art, gameplay and so on. We're not crowing that we've solved everything, not at all, but we do believe that working together the way we do makes us all strive to be better at what we do.

That's not to say we nail it 100% of the time, but we've learned what good looks like by starting with how we work together on teams (thanks to dedicated folks like WAARGHBobo, in fact, he wrote the first story sketch to be used in champion production) and what difference it can make when we work as partners with the same goal.

If I'm writing a comic, I'll be very keen to hear what the artists and editors have to say. They have ideas, understanding and perspectives that pertain to their field that will likely be better than mine, or at least spark better ideas between us. Also, the book will include their craft and so I want to make sure the very best of their craft is included as it will undoubtedly make for a better book. To do that I need to ensure we have a working relationship and environment that allows for us all to be at out best.

We believe the same is true for gaming. Understanding what a writer can bring to your game is the first step. Bringing in a Narrative Writer doesn't mean you have to curtail your game to bend to the need of plot. Games are much more flexible than that and so the developers must be to utilize the medium's full range of possibilities, as well as the full capabilities of their team of developers, including designers, artists, writers, engineers and many others who are vital to help something as hard to do as a game reach its full potential.

A development manager asked me the other day about the core motivation of a champion that's currently in development as she didn't feel it was clearly expressed in some concept work that we'd been reviewing.

My answer didn't matter as much as the question. The fact it was asked at all makes me feel we're heading in the right direction.

patmax171 votes

Hi Jaredan!

First, thanks for the interesting information (and to WBobo too :))

This whole topic reminded me of an article I read some time ago about what problems writers face when working in video game industry. I guess it's nothing new for you, but probably some users around here might find it interesting: http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2172-no-trans-characters-6-realities-writing-video-games.html

Jaghatai1 votes

Thank you so much for the response! Do you mind if I use your responses in class?

Huang Shaotian4 votes

{quoted}

(Both seem stable in gameplay terms (though #notmydepartment)

Compile error: missing end bracket.

RiotWAAARGHbobo1 votes

Doh!

GreenLore1 votes

Yeah I feel like these 2 are a bit too similar in terms of theme since they are both berserkers with horned helmets.

Sure Tryndamere is more barbarian-like and wrath-themed,while olaf is more the classical viking,but its still rather similar.

Also I think Tryndamere is even on the list for a VGU,though I doubt that he is very high on that.

Garentheon1 votes

Wow. Some amazing points. Thanks for the reply

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Apparently, Trynda is due for a rework, but he is pretty much at the end of the current list.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Visually speaking, how do you feel about Ashe? I don't know anything about northern fighters, but I imagine that they mostly wear furs, rather than plate? Regardless, shouldn't there be more visually distinction to reflect that Ashe and Sej are from different tribes?

GreenLore3 votes

Problem is that Tryndameres tribe getting killed is a pretty big part of his character,which would make it rather odd for Olaf to be from his tribe.

Garentheon2 votes

I know. Could tweak to not his entire tribe but his close family and friends. Or he had a falling out with Olaf or someone, split off with some, became their leader, You know the rest

With the Lore rework they don't keep things 1:1 the same

Lordllo1 votes

Can everyone reading this,ask if tryn and ashe are married in ask riot? thank you

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

They are canonically.

MakeOutHiIIXXX1 votes

ANYTHING ABOUT AATROX? ?

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