@Reav3 @Meddler Can we consider adding AT LEAST one more Pod to the VGU team?

Garentheon·Oct 27, 2016·58 votes·16,488 views

I know you have mentioned there's been discussion. And I know we have 2 pods working on VGUs at the moment, as oppose the 1 last year. But given how much work still lies ahead i think it would great if AT LEAST ONE MORE POD was added to the VGU team. I'm thinking allocate them from champ team. Yes we still want our new champs. I get it. But I believe it would do wonders for the game if we had more hands for the VGU team

Pod: a group that has a designer, splash artist, concept artist, animator, writer, etc. (VGU team has 2 of these groups/pods)

Having 3 or 4 teams working on a character each? Imagine the amazing year of VGUs that will produce

133 Comments

RiotReav3Oct 27, 201638 votes

VGU and New Champion pods are actually quite big.

Currently both New Champion and Champ Up have 3 pods. There are 3 New Champion pods, 2 VGU pods and 1 Roster Pod. Since we have ramped up ChampUp to 2 pods the cadence of Champion content has been pretty quick.

If you look back over the last year or so you will see that there has been some kind of champion release almost every month.

Nov (Illoai) Dec (Poppy) Jan (Shen/Jhin) ASol (March) Taric (April) Mages Roster (May) Taliyah (June) Ryze (July) Keld (August) Yorick (Sept) Ivern (Oct.) Assassins Roster (Nov)

That is a champion release of some kind roughly every 4 weeks or so. I'm not saying we are going to maintain this cadence since some champions are more complicated and require more time then others, but I do think it might be TOO fast if we added another VGU team.

I can see a point in the future when one of the New Champion pods become a VGU pod (Or maybe some kind of hybrid team that swaps between VGU/New Champion) but I don't think we are quite at that point yet.

Malicious MetalOct 27, 201646 votes

Well, the thing is that sometimes it feels that VGU's are moving at a snail's pace as there are a ton of champions dying to get their turn.

Galio Evelynn Urgot Warwick Swain Akali Mordekaiser and co

RiotReav3Oct 27, 201613 votes

Hmm. I count 5 in the last 11 months if you look at the list I posted. Poppy, Shen, Taric, Ryze & Yorick. I know Shen wasn't a full VGU but that was before we ramped up the team, so resource wise it would have been given ChampUps size right now.

It feels like a fairly reasonable pace, not sure if having a VGU every month would be the right cadence, especially if you include all the new champs and roster projects.

Malicious MetalOct 27, 201615 votes

Well, maybe it's just personal bias ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

DarkRitualOct 27, 20162 votes

Once all the big VGU's are done, having smaller updates every month (Morgana/Kayle sorts of champions who need less kit work) might be doable, depending on art asset management. Would that be a possible direction in the future?

RiotReav3Oct 27, 201611 votes

Hmm, I actually think that Kayle needs a pretty sizeable update. Once we get to Kayle we would almost certainly update Morgana as well.

SpideraxeOct 27, 20162 votes

Can I ask what you think about Rammus since he's pretty outdated and unintuitive but several Rioters have stated his Q is awesome

RiotReav3Oct 27, 20165 votes

He definitely needs a full VGU. The Q could quite possibly stay though. We tend to keep skills if they work with the new directions or are still really solid/fun. (Poppy E and Sion W, for example)

Rude NameOct 29, 20162 votes

Woah woah woah. I need to interject here. I've been fearing someone would suggest this. As an avid Rammus player, I'd like to politely list a few reasons as to not let this happen.

League needs simple champs. This is a more general comment, but it applies to Rammus. Warwick and Galio are simple. I severely hope their rework doesn't change this too much. And Rammus is simple too! Reworks have made increasingly more complex champions, and if this trend continues, I fear for the general wellbeing of the game.
There is beauty in his kit. It's the subtle things I notice. Rammus's W helps with his passive, and his E supports his W. The Q allows his E to get in range. His ult is mediocre. But see, his kit is unified, and I believe it's fair and balanced.
Not a full VGU. I mean, I agree. Rammus needs an update in some regards. His model is very bland, his animations and emotes are sub-par. This aspect, his visual aspect, needs an update. His ult is also bland, and could be so much more thematically appropriate. But I honestly believe this is all that needs to change.

So, yeah, I'm not completely against a VGU for Rammus. Some parts of him do need to change. But I am against a full VGU, as this would ruin his simple, coherent, thematically appropriate, fair and balanced kit. Except his ult, that thing is boring as.

DoozkuNov 27, 20162 votes

Plenty of champions have kits that are unified. Infact basically every new champion has one. Ryze's Q synergizes with low E cd allowing him to spam spells. I understand that you main rammus, but most other people just find him boring. You roll up to a lane and press 2 buttons and start right clicking on the enemy. There is never a change. Just the same thing over, and over, and over. It get monotonous for anyone that doesn't thoroughly enjoy the champion.

But if they change his voicelines i'm leaving league.

ReZisT LustOct 27, 20163 votes

can those 2 have a lil interaction

RiotReav3Oct 27, 20169 votes

Of course! Probably a good amount!

VoidacOct 27, 20162 votes

Just kind of curious, but any plans for Brand story-wise?

DwarvenGiantOct 27, 20163 votes

They very possibly have, since there's a story hook in the Shurima's (Nasus, Renekton & Azir's) lore about a fire spirit that escaped from the very sarcophagus which Xerath is now chained to (before his Ascension though).

VoidacOct 28, 20162 votes

That's exactly what I thought when I first read the lore, I thought it lined up all too well.

I assume that sarcophagus isn't his origin, that he's much, much older than that. But man, it seems Brand is indirectly tied to a lot of lore (Lissandra/Anivia/Olaf/Ryze/Shurima/Demacia). I just think from a story standpoint, he's a really interesting guy.

He's also my main, so I'm incredibly biased.

VęXOct 29, 20161 votes

what about irelia, seems like she needs a vgu

RiotReav3Oct 31, 20163 votes

She does, you are correct.

Malicious MetalOct 31, 20162 votes

Is there an actual descending list of which champions need a VGU the most? Or is it ever-changing

RiotReav3Oct 31, 20162 votes

It is ever changing. It isn't descending either but tiered. There are multiple champions in one tier, and those champions change tiers frequently. The reason I never post the tiers is because people will take it as THE list even though it changes all the time.

LongHair FoxOct 31, 20161 votes

I know I asked before but I really want an opinion, even if you can't give a definitive answer: Would it be possible to remake Irelia into an Ionian captain and keep her current kit more or less intact but make it more healthy instead of changing her kit into something that is more in line with a blade telekinesist?

RiotReav3Oct 31, 20162 votes

Anything is possible. We usually go through TONS of iterations and ideas before we settle on something.

Linna ExcelOct 31, 20162 votes

Why not just fix her E in a smaller scope rework? That seems to big the biggest complaint I've seen against her.

CorriandrOct 27, 20162 votes

I actually have a question for you, if you do not mind: How come some champions didn't get new voice-overs, interactions, etc., and some others do? For example, Poppy got the whole package, but Fiora didn't get any of those. It makes me rather sad =(

RiotReav3Oct 27, 20165 votes

In the past we only had 1 narrative writers on Champ Up. We have 2 now so that we can do new VO for all our VGUs.

Edit: We had 1 before, not 2

HellioningOct 27, 20164 votes

You used to have 2...but now you have 2? What?

SharjoOct 27, 20166 votes

Think he meant one, which is why GP and Poppy got full VO and a big shbang lore wise, while Fiora and Shen got updated lore and that's it. Their lore was handled by...either foundations or someone on the champion team if I remember rightly, which would've been FauxShizzle or WAAARGHbobo.

JohnODyin was that sole writer for champ up before, but I dunno who the new fellow is.

UltîmaOct 28, 20163 votes

How about art updates?

Ezreal is in the same boat as Kassadin was where his kit is fairly competitive and healthy, but his model, animations, etc. are an absolute mess. Could there be resources allocated to such a project? It feels as though, considering his constant presence in tournaments, Riot would benefit from having on of their flagship characters looking like they belong in 2016 rather than 2011.

CorriandrOct 28, 20161 votes

For those that got less than they should have, perhaps, in regards to VGU's (such as lack of voice-overs and/or animations that others such as Scion, Poppy, and Taric got), would the team consider going back to put those in to bring them up to par with everyone else? Or would that be a pipe dream (really, just wanted to see more with Fiora =P Felt so sad with the limited scope of things she got in comparison to everyone else)?

Ravenous HowlsOct 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

For those that got less than they should have, perhaps, in regards to VGU's (such as lack of voice-overs and/or animations that others such as Scion, Poppy, and Taric got), would the team consider going back to put those in to bring them up to par with everyone else? Or would that be a pipe dream (really, just wanted to see more with Fiora =P Felt so sad with the limited scope of things she got in comparison to everyone else)?

I think there is some argument to be made that Fiora already had a pretty strong VO that didn't require resources being placed into that aspect of her. However I think they should have brought in her voice actor to maybe record a few new line, interactive with other champion or general at the very least. At least she got significant changes to her kit and art and was made pretty well all things considered. Hell Riot even listened and changed her art to accommodate the largely negative reaction to her look and in game model.

By comparison you could have got something that feels very rushed like Shen. I think new Shen's kit is amazing though , his visuals definitely look better but ultimately feel unpolished and he really suffers from some rather mundane VO as well as animations regarding his recall. His whole scope could have been epic like Fiora's mostly but kind of leaves you feeling only half full.

CorriandrOct 28, 20162 votes

Oh yeah, they handled the reactions to the splash and model well (thankfully; they WERE bad). Riot was well into their "stylistic" phase at that time, (see: Janna) and I'm really glad they've moved out of it. All the art they're pushing now is amazing (see: Nightraven, royal guard, evelynn, star guardians). I'm still sad they didn't use the initial concept arts for Fiora - those were so amazing - but i'm happy with the vast majority of art stuff for her now, with the exception of in-game model on royal guard. That's still horrid; but that splash art is definitely her best one. Still, I wish they gave her a few new voice lines, a few new jokes and taunts. I'm biased, i know; she was my main before the rework, and remains so after. So, i can't help feel slightly cheated for her, especially when out of all the VGU's, i think she's the only one that didn't get that. But I do agree that her kit rework, when compared to Shen's, is unquestionably superior.

ModKnightsKemplarOct 27, 20169 votes

Yeah, but I agree with Riot on this one, actually. There IS a pace that is too fast, for sure. I'd prefer quality over quantity; even with this pace there has been at least one lackluster release, imo (looking at you, Shen).

Papa AndreiOct 27, 20163 votes

I would rather have each of these slowly teased out and hyped up then just shat out every other week just to get them done. Remember, its a business, they can't make much money with an incessant stream of "product" with little to no marketing.

RiotReav3Oct 27, 201651 votes

Actually we have found that most players dislike the very slow teasing build up marketing strategy. When it's to long players tend to lose interest or hype by the time the product is released.

VanjieOct 27, 20162 votes

Your team is delusional if you think 3 VGU a year, wasting time on Brand, Velkoz, and Annie, and working on Ryze 7 times . . . . while other champions that need a visual update or just a kit update . . . . . have to wait years and years for you to finally do something. You have mains waiting years and years now on your SLOW development team to work on 3 VGU a year, waste time on Brand, Velkoz, and Annie, and working on Ryze 7 times. You don't have an excuse for working on Zed, Soraka, Leona, Alistar, and more . . . . but when it comes to Morde, Karma, and Shen . . . you always have an excuse. You are too pathetic to admit that you botched their identities, didn't finish visual updates, and completely ruined what players loved about them . . . . and you are too pathetic to work on some of them for 3 years now. The excuses are getting old, the whining is getting old, and the Development team that prioritizes working on 3 VGU a year, wasting time on Brand, Velkoz, and Annie, and working on Ryze 7 times and thinks they are moving at a fast pace and making the right decisions, makes you look delusional, liars, and incompetent. I have never played a game where the Development team is so out of touch with their community, does what they want and not listens, and always has an excuse.

When are you going to finish and complete the botched visual update and identity you ruined on Karma? When are you going to work on Morde and remove him from this pitiful bot lane idea you shoved down our throats? When are you going to remove the horrible sword mechanic from Shen and restore him to what Shen mains loved about him? The answer is 12 years from now and 3 VGU a year, wasting time on Brand, Velkoz, and Annie, and working on Ryze 7 times later.

Get over yourselves, stop being delusional, fix Karma, Morde, and Shen . . . . and stop wasting the entire year working on Ekko 4 times, spending every update on Zed when you allocated five months to him preseason of 5, and wasting 7 times on Ryze. Everyone at Riot is delusional.

I want to make this clear. I do not have a problem with them working on champs like Eve, Taric, Poppy . . . . . and more that actually need the work. I have a problem with them wasting time on other champions when there is nothing wrong with their identity, visual update, or kit. There are champions who have been waiting years now, ones that they experimented on didn't listen, that are being ignored and the mains are being lied to by the Development team.

SharjoOct 27, 201632 votes

I sense a bit of resentment towards Ryze here.

DarkRitualOct 27, 201612 votes

He's gotten multiple updates, when other champs have gotten none, despite being high priority for years.

RalanrOct 27, 201610 votes

He's always been a big issue though.

DarkRitualOct 27, 20168 votes

They should have nerfed him down and put him back in the line for later. Riot has been fine letting champions sit in the dumpster untill they have time to get around to them. Galio Aatrox Warwick

DraqoneOct 27, 20168 votes

Honestly, Galio, with the protobelt and all has a decent niche.

TequilaZombieOct 27, 20162 votes

Hyper speed Galio is also pretty fun!

item 3800 item 3069 item 3742 item 3512 summoner 6 / summoner 4 + E

You think a Hecarim is a fast initiator? You think you can't out run a Rammus? Think again!

ReZisT LustOct 27, 20165 votes

item 3140 Invest wisely [slayer-jinx-wink]

JulanusOct 27, 20161 votes

Point Runner ( item 3069 and item 3512 ) doesn't stack.

DeathBot666Oct 28, 20164 votes

But the active on item 3069 is why u build it.

JulanusOct 28, 20166 votes

Which would make item 3512 's increased movement speed redundant.

DarkRitualOct 27, 20164 votes

Ah yes, the Duke Nukem Forever effect.

Photos of GhostsOct 27, 20168 votes

Fact is, we'd be REALLY REALLY happy if you moved one of those New Champion pods to ChampUp right now. VGUs are coming SO SLOW. Akali Chogath Evelynn Galio Mordekaiser Nunu Rammus Shaco Skarner Swain Teemo Tryndamere Urgot Warwick Irelia Shen And then there's those that need pure VUs or otherwise art content Amumu Anivia Corki Pulsefire Ezreal Fiddlesticks Gragas Janna Jax Kennen KogMaw Malphite Morgana Shyvana Singed Talon Udyr Veigar Zilean

RiotReav3Oct 27, 20167 votes

I think some people for sure would, myself included (I Love VGUs!) We survey players about this kind of stuff fairly often though and our data suggests that while the desire for VGUs has risen a lot over the last couple years, (which is why we ramped up ChampUp) more players still want a New Champion over a VGU. The gap is closing though.

Should it get to the point that more players want VGUs over New Champiosn we will probably discuss re-allocating resources. Currently we feel the ratio is about right with current player desire.

Photos of GhostsOct 27, 20163 votes

The fact is that a player that wanted a new champ is kinda let down if he sees more VGUs coming out than new champions. If a player wanted a VGU, he is going to feel disgusted by the nonsense if he sees more new champs than VGUs. And he doesn't get to see new skins for his champs for 3+ years.

DeathBurstOct 27, 20161 votes

So...

TL;DR: there probably won't be a new pod ever (would be too many releases, too often), but some pods could be re-affected from New-Champs to Champ-Up (depending notably on player surveys)? Got that right?

Regarding the first part ("more would be too fast"), can't you allocate more than one pod and release all of their work as a single event? For instance, you mentioned you'd probably work on Morg/Kayle at the same time, but wouldn't that benefit from 2 full pods instead of one?