Making Demacia more questionable/Giving Noxus a good side

Social Justice 1··44 votes·6,722 views

One of Riot's complaints with their established lore is that Noxus is heavily painted as evil Poppy Veigar Galio Alistar XinZhao while the worst we've seen out of Demacia is skewed morality Vayne and how highly they place duty over personal well-being Lux

So let's see what we can swap around to even them out a bit more. Grey and Grey is a bit popular in media, but it beats out Black with some fade and White with a few spots on it.

1: Make Demacia the one with the anti-human sentiments. Noxus is the city-state that does not care who you are, as long as you are strong. Demacia is deeply rooted in their traditions, so xenophobia would make more sense on them. Show that Alistar was granted a home solely to spite Noxus, and that many Demacians find his activism uncomforting. Have Poppy and Nunu (who brings Willump along) be given substandard treatment as diplomats. Make Demacia detest Zaun even further with the number of "abnormalities" in their streets. Vayne is considered a hero to many citizens for her hatred towards the "unpure." Galio and Shyvana are even more feared by the public.

2: Add some paranoia (Especially with Piltover). Piltover and Zaun have their own stories, but are also given this "Demacia vs Noxus" development. With Noxus and Zaun being proud partners of each other, emphasizing that Demacia is wary of trusting Piltover would further the differences between them while also establishing Demacia as not the best place to live. Maybe it's their trust of Yordles. Maybe Demacia is too proud to accept the sciences of Piltover so easily. You can also make Demacia less eager to claim the Averosan tribe as the accepted leaders of the Freljord, while Noxus agrees whoever has the largest army should be in charge (this would require cementing the Winter's Claw as a smaller, more radical operation).

3: Give Demacia some bad calls. I don't think retconning The Fleshing is the right move, since it is a perfect example of the Noxian mindset. And the invasion of Ionia is too important for several character's backstories (maybe too many from Ionia). Give Demacia a piece of the pie. They could annex independent land "for their safety" or take part in environmentally-unfriendly actions like mass deforestation in order to grow (Perhaps that could be the new Plague Jungles, considering the former was caused by the Rune Wars).

4: More Demacian champion lines that bring out this morality. The perfect existing example is Garen's "What we do is RIGHT" line. Maybe bring in some lines for Lux that show past her positive personality or have Xin Zhao occasionally wonder if he will ever be more than a weapon.

tl;dr With the lore revamp, don't cut out a lot of stuff and then have nothing to replace it. That's the lazy writing Riot wanted to avoid with the retcon. Also less Demacia=good Noxus=bad stuff

83 Comments

GreenLore31 votes

Overall I'd say that they shouldn't retcon demacia into the racist city state,while making noxus suddenly the one that welcomes other races,they could do however some kind of twist about this.

Demacia could be the city state where other races are more easily accepted,but they have almost zero chance to get into the upper class of society

Noxus would be the complete opposite a city state where other races aren't accepted that easily,but once they manage to prove themselves are actually treated as equals on all levels.

Aside from that I would like to see some more extreme(or downright evil?) demacians,I think it was said at one point that the king also has a council who has quite some influence.I'd say it'd be interesting if a council member would actually be willing to do some stuff others wouldn't agree too Or another possibility would be someone who takes the "demacia are the good guys"-thing a little bit too far and sees all others as evil,suffering from a black-white morality where he can't see something in-between.

Dreamspitter2 votes

{quoted}

Overall I'd say that they shouldn't retcon demacia into the racist city state,while making noxus suddenly the one that welcomes other races,they could do however some kind of twist about this.

Demacia could be the city state where other races are more easily accepted,but they have almost zero chance to get into the upper class of society

Noxus would be the complete opposite a city state where other races aren't accepted that easily,but once they manage to prove themselves are actually treated as equals on all levels.

Aside from that I would like to see some more extreme(or downright evil?) demacians,I think it was said at one point that the king also has a council who has quite some influence.I'd say it'd be interesting if a council member would actually be willing to do some stuff others wouldn't agree too Or another possibility would be someone who takes the "demacia are the good guys"-thing a little bit too far and sees all others as evil,suffering from a black-white morality where he can't see something in-between.

Already that way considering weight of Noble families in Demacia I think.

CupcakeTrap22 votes

This thread is relevant to my interests. This is an ongoing topic in Factions lore.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Yin_yang.svg/1024px-Yin_yang.svg.png

My preferred version of this dichotomy is what I would describe as "yin-yang". I don't mean to bring in all the fancier elements of that concept, but simply the visual effect. I see Demacia as "Light, with a dash of Dark" and Noxus as "Dark, with a dash of Light". I think it's important that Demacia remain heroic, and Noxus villainous, at least by the standards of conventional morality. I would disagree with graying it out to the point where they're both scummy and awful; I'd rather have one be "awesomely good" (Superman) and one be "awesomely evil" (Darth Vader). However, it's almost as important that Demacia has an evil side, and Noxus has a good side.

You make it sound like a minor thing, but I think Demacia's subjugation of the individual is a pretty hefty dark side. Lux isn't getting the worst of it, either. There are probably many talented, clever, heroic commoners in Demacia who will never know a life beyond working the fields. (Given that Demacia is not "medieval Europe" so much as "our most glorious fantasies about medieval Europe", they aren't wretched slaves abused by their wicked masters, but they're still subjugated, and are expected to happily serve their "betters" regardless of actual merit.) Sure, any commoner who ends up imbued with Champion-level power would be snatched up; if a peasant kid suddenly starts being able to throw ox-carts around or rip trees out of the ground, you're going to slap her in some plate mail and send her to the armies or the League. But anything short of being an actual Champion is probably not enough to make a difference in your lot.

And I also think the brutal honesty and openness of Noxian society is a considerable "good" trait. Imagine a world where nobody hid their potential or let themselves be guilted or pushed around, and where nobody had to be told to "follow their dreams". And imagine a world where people who screw others over get what's coming to them. In certain ways, society might be "better" if insults or oppression brought duels to the death. Comcast charges too much for cable? STAND AND FIGHT, TECH SUPPORT MAN. I WILL AUGMENT MY NEXT PAYMENT WITH YOUR HEAD! Most of us probably would not want to live in Noxus, but it would be pretty cool until we lost and ended up on a spike.

But I think it's important that we keep it tropey for these two polarized nation states, and have Demacia's dark side be a "good guy dark side" (like Superman's arrogance) and Noxus's good side be an "EVIL IS AWESOME" sort of trait (like Darth Vader totally choking that stuffy uniform dude with the FORCE).

There is a certain school of thought which says that "darker and grittier is better". I went through a phase like that. I felt a certain liberation after years and years of fairy tale simplicity in exploring the awful realities of our world. But after gorging myself on grit, I also gained a new appreciation for bright-and-clean fairy-tale storytelling. There is incredible power there, and it's not so "unrealistic" as I once thought. I think that, for Demacia and Noxus at least, you want to play it straight—just not completely straight.

have Xin Zhao occasionally wonder if he will ever be more than a weapon.

I enjoyed writing this Factions piece, which explores Xin Zhao's mindset. I don't think Xin Zhao is a conventional Demacian, but in a way I think he explores some of their values and philosophies more deeply than most Demacians who memorize The Measured Tread as toddlers. I think he ultimately embraces his singular role as protector of the crown, but I think the intensity of his commitment does trouble him. The absoluteness of his commitment is exhilarating, but also troubling. (Kierkegaardian Xin Zhao)

Sneak Dog9 votes

In certain ways, society might be "better" if insults or oppression brought duels to the death. Comcast charges too much for cable? STAND AND FIGHT, TECH SUPPORT MAN. I WILL AUGMENT MY NEXT PAYMENT WITH YOUR HEAD!

Erm, well... That sounds hilarious. It'd also put a whole new spin on internet arguments.

I like your portrayal of Noxus and Demacia but would like to add one thing: I feel like Noxus philosophy is all about competence. Strength is one kind of competence. If two bakers get in eachothers way, they'll probably have a baking showdown and not a fist fight. Probably being a key word here.

CupcakeTrap5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=LnOcrwdk,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2015-01-25T18:53:40.451+0000) I feel like Noxus philosophy is all about competence. Strength is one kind of competence. If two bakers get in eachothers way, they'll probably have a baking showdown and not a fist fight. Probably being a key word here.

I think you're probably right, as much as I like to joke about having a duel to the death to decide who's the new head baker at a cupcake shop. I feel, though, that literal violence is recognized as having a certain primal validity in Noxus. There's probably some mechanism in place to prevent a brilliant scientist who sucks at swinging an axe from getting beheaded by a scientifically inept and vengeful rival. Maybe there are social norms about small-c "champions" for certain individuals, whereby someone who's not great at fighting but is good at other things can convince warriors to step up to defend them in duels. So if you challenge one of Singed's non-Champion proteges to a duel, you accept that you'll likely end up fighting the most badass warrior who is willing to step up and put their life on the line for that chemist. And maybe there's a patronage system so that those with particularly great "dignitas" have layers of protection: some random idiot can't challenge Swain and waste his time. And finally, maybe they do have some notion of when a challenge is valid, such that the challenged person must either accept or fall into disgrace, and when it is not, leaving the challenged person free to ignore it.

But yes. Bakery ownership is probably not resolved with duels to the death, unless it's through (small-c) champions.

I Main Swain6 votes

unless one of the bakers is pantheon, then the other one is just dead

Gallowgrim13 votes

Considering the disturbing fascist elements of Demacia already in place ("No retreat,no surrender, no excuses!" and that whole sordid child-soldier affair with Lux - and probably any other magickal child prodigy in Demacia,there's no reason to suspect she's an isolated case...) well....

At ;east Noxus doesn't lie about what they are as a society. They do awful things but by Jove they own them, unlike Demacia's hypocrisy.

Demacia's never been the "Good Guy" to my view.

JevelFaithful2 votes

I'd tend to agree with this. I think the OP mostly want that ugly side to be put more to the front.

But I'd say in a game like league (where most of the lore is ignored or fast-forwarded), I like the fact Demacia is officially seen as the text book good guy until you start to scratch the surface. They already have that dark side, and it's not hidden, it's just unspoken. You have to look at the lore that is in front of you but you never read, and then take a minute to think about it. As the OP said, both city already have those other sides. They are just not put to the front but they are deffinately there. I like it that way personally.

CupcakeTrap3 votes

I agree; this is the main point of my "yin-yang" image. My vision of Demacia is principally heroic and noble. As a setting, Demacia provides a way to explore themes of righteousness and goodness. I understand why this is distasteful to some, and a frequent target of cynical (or realistic) subversion in works like Game of Thrones: played straight, Demacia canonizes our own world's myths of "divine right monarchy" and "noblesse oblige", glorifying authoritarian power structures that in our reality were used to oppress and exploit. I recognize the danger in high fantasy versions of feudal society that work as the myths said they should (or did): the valiant king who deserves total obedience, the grateful common folk who are happy to serve their betters, the nobles who are just better than everyone else.

Fantasy has a dangerous side. A lot of fantasy is about the glorification of violence. Probably, today, someone on Earth will meet their end in the form of a sharp piece of metal stabbed or slashed through their body, and it will be horrible. How profane, then, that we should tell cheerful fantasy stories about the greatness of people who inflict this agony on others.

I see two possible ways to address this problem. One is to moralize, writing fiction while constantly conscious of the "real world" implications of the work. Perhaps more skillful authors can do this well; I find it extraordinarily awkward to try to tell a fantasy story while simultaneously reminding the audience of various RL moral imperatives. The other is to dive fully into the fantasy world and let it run by its own rules.

Tolkien wrote an excellent essay, On Fairy-Stories, in which he delves into the foundations of fantasy. At the risk of mischaracterizing this remarkable piece, I would highlight his observations about the linguistic origins of fantasy: the adjective. Once you have a word not just for "fire" but for "fiery", as in "fiery oven", you can separate the actual phenomenon (a fiery oven) and create something like a phoenix, a "fiery bird", in the realm of the imagination.

Similarly, I believe that you can create something like Demacia by separating the myths of feudalism from the realities of historical feudalism, and devising a world where the King Arthur stories really are (mostly) true. To me, that's what makes it fantasy. If you're too eager to jump back to RL history and make some point about it through the fiction, you reduce the whole enterprise to soapboxing. ("Hey, Joss Whedon, I get that you're drawing on some of the themes of child abuse here, but is this character a demon or an abusive father? Because if it's the former, I don't understand this whole 'telling your teacher' scene.") People talk about suspending disbelief; I think you also need to suspend awareness of our reality, or at least resist the urge to keep making everything about our reality.

Hinagiku3310 votes

Even from the old Journal of Justice I at least got the impression that there were multiple sides in Noxus. Unless Katarina's entire existence has been upended (totally possible at this point) then I'm pretty sure she, Talon, and probably Cass would stand against Swain for most-likely murdering her and Cass' father when he was sweeping into power. Riven is explicitly stated as still believing in Noxus' core values of the strong ruling over the weak but feeling that Noxus strayed from those values with the unethical Zaun-Teamkilling-Party.

Riven doesn't need to be "redeemed" by becoming a shiny Demacian paladin. She needs to help reform Noxus and Kat and her crew could easily form a faction that can effectively plot against Swain and the Black Rose and not be wholly evil. Granted, Kat and Talon are still assassins and Kat is a bloodthirsty little thing but they can probably channel that to a good cause.

Team Swain: Swain Leblanc Darius Draven Sion Singed

Team Kat: Katarina Talon Cassiopeia Riven

Noxus can be "not inherently evil but currently ruled by terrible people". It can be awesome.

Then it's time to give Demacia an internal enemy/traitorous faction...

IceKingChernobog2 votes

i feel like sion belongs to team kat more since he knows swain is up to something underhanded and doesn't want to be part of it, but sadly he's practically swain's puppet since sion has no real control over himself while swain can control him completely

TheUntitledKing6 votes

Team Swain: Swain Leblanc Darius Draven Sion Singed

item 3070 Vladimir item 3070 Where?

Tiure6 votes

Urgot I AM INCAPABLE OF TEARS DUE TO NOT HAVING REAL EYES BUT WISH TO EXPRESS MY SORROW ALL THE SAME

Urgot ALTHOUGH TO BE BRUTALLY HONEST I HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT SO OFTEN THAT I HAVE DEVELOPED AN EXCELLENT COPING MECHANISM OBSERVE:

Team UrGOD: Urgot aka the urgot is cool club

Social Justice 11 votes

{quoted}

Team UrGOD: Urgot aka the urgot is cool club

Sion Uh, Urgot... I can't hang out with you anymore. I'm cool now.

But for real it looks like a lot of people had... similar sentiments to my original post.

It turns out Demacia is a lot closer to grey than what my first post said about them, but that it's mentioned a lot less than the stuff Noxus pulls. Subtlety is nice, and I was not seeing a good bit of the lore, but bringing more emphasis or using these pieces to build up into something else would be nice.

Somebody else brought up that Noxus' government also allows for more factions to pop up. In practice this just ends with everybody trying to backstab each other, but it also promotes Noxus' "anybody with power can claim power" mindset. Demacia (to my knowledge) remains the only primary location in League of Legends to not have any citizens/associated champions with a dislike for their home (Bilgewater also comes to mind, now that I think about it). There have to be SOME naysayers, and at least one of them powerful enough to be considered a Legend.

Tiure1 votes

You weren't far off, and I didn't comment on Cupcake's post above because I didn't feel like I'd contribute too much.

Demacia's criticism has always been that it is too heavy-handed in its pursuit of justice. Fiora's father, one of the only examples of a Demacian who was punished, fell. HARD. Fiora was cast into total disgrace, along with her entire family, and even she's not sure she'll ever get her reputation back.

It's heavily implied that Garen is the Demacian executioner.

Shyvana is a dragon who frequently mentions her allegiance to Demacia.

Let's not just kind of forget about Batman aka Vayne.

Why is the prince running around in heavy armor?

Kayle yells out "AN EYE FOR AN EYE," a reference to the Code of Hammurabi. This Code is noteworthy because it was harsh towards the poor, but allowed the wealthy to get off with fines or substitute servants in their place to take punishments for them. It's possible that Demacia might be willing to overlook a few low-profile crimes for a price.

Demacian evil is subtle. Is Garen doing the right thing? Unquestionably. Is he doing it all the time? Possibly. Is he doing it the right way? Probably not.

kDrakari7 votes

I'm not an expert on the lore, but the impression that I got from what I HAVE read is that historically Noxus and Demacia are actually very similar. They were both city-states with essentially military rule, a strong sense of "honor", and a desire to expand. Demacia had its idea of "justice" for sure, while Noxus valued simply "strength" above all else, but they were both war-like nations trying to expand through conquest. The development from there was slightly different; Noxus's "strength" became "victory at any cost" which gave rise to much more underhanded tactics among the leadership over time, something that has some opposition among citizens who support the old "honor" (Riven Sion). On the other side, Demacia's "justice" was basically just a pretty name to put on "force everybody to do what we want", practically brainwashing people to put the nation's desire ahead of their own (Lux) and leading to a very "us or them" approach where anybody is "accepted" once they swear completely that Demacian Justice is 100% a better option than death the best option.

Now, some of that is basically made up on the spot, some of it is significantly based on the extra/alternate lore in the Factions universe, and none of it is cross-checked with any official lore, but it fits with what I remember. Showing it could simply be done through little things of the "outsider" champions acknowledging that they don't entirely believe in the Demacian way, but feel too much pressure to actually admit it publicly.

Or you can just have them be racist. That could also work.

JevelFaithful1 votes

I love how you put it.

And from someone who never touched Factions, the basic fit the official lore. Might be a little bit of interpretation, but the facts check out.

Xulsigae7 votes

I think many of the claims that Demacia is bad because of monarchy and such are flawed, as we never really see the monarchy as being bad or any worse than Noxus. Is Jarvan III a terrible person? Is he mad? Does he execute people on whims? His son Jarvan IV seems very competent and caring. Just because it's a monarchy doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. As for social mobility, it's been shown to be possible to move up, but it's hard admittedly. But at least if someone is trying to kill you, something would be done about it. I can't find any instances of atrocities committed by the Demacian military, at least anywhere close to the scale of the Noxians. I don't think Demacia's 'dark side' is at all dark, at least compared to how Noxus is presented to us.

Noxus' claims to be open to competence and such aren't very well demonstrated in what we see of it. The competence they seem to value is how well you can kill your way up the ladder, or just how well you can kill period. They have executions and torture as mass entertainment. Noxus also seems to have aristocracy and inherited positions, so social mobility isn't its strong point either. The leadership has shown they will commit genocide and use chemical warfare. The city looks like a skull as well...

In essence, Demacia's darkness is hardly dark, and Noxus' light is oh so very dark from what I see. Perhaps they should be a bit more balanced, but not because of monarchy and social mobility.

Social Justice 11 votes

{quoted}

Noxus also seems to have aristocracy and inherited positions, so social mobility isn't it's strong point either.

In Noxus, military rank=social/political rank. The closest thing they would have is being born into wealth.

Xulsigae2 votes

I would say Katarina got a leg up on in her life by being the daughter of a high official.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

She's also an extremely talented assassin

Xulsigae1 votes

Indeed, but would she have been so good if she didn't have the resources her birth gave her? Talent paired with expectations and skills and resources make her good I think.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

In most "hands on" type things, Resources can only take you so far.

LordHippoman6 votes

I actually don't think the Rune Wars were retconned, I think they did still happen, but the League was never formed to prevent another one. I'm not entirely sure on that though.

More on topic, I like a lot of these ideas. I'd really like to see Riven make a return to Noxus and challenge some of their more skeevy practices, what with the chemical nuking of their own troops and all that. Of course, Swain wouldn't be a fan, but perhaps someone like Katarina or Talon could be persuaded. Noxus is sort of teetering on the edge of a big reform with the death of their centuries old Grand General anyway, add some more uncertainty to the way that will proceed.

I'd be anxious about further retcons, just because a lot of this is pretty set in stone with bios and stories like Veigar's and Alistar's (regarding the whole human supremacy thing), but I do like the idea of Noxus being less cartoonishly racist. Maybe our next Yordle champ could be working for Swain? He seems too smart to count out a potential powerful ally simply due to their race, and charismatic enough to talk his people into dealing with it...and imposing enough to force them if need be. Giant demon bird and all.

CupcakeTrap4 votes

The racism thing is difficult. I think Demacians would certainly be more likely to judge a person by their associations, which might include their species or home civilization. Individualism is a potent counter to racism, and Noxus has a lot more individualism than Demacia.

On the Rune Wars, I think they're going to basically retcon them. They'll probably make up something new about runes and magic, maybe as a reason for factions to fight. I suspect they'll dial down the WMD aspect, because that was the main impetus for the League.

Noxians were used as the generic bad guys in a lot of older lore, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing: Noxians are the bad guys to a lot of people. I didn't really see it as racism, so much as kicking the weak around. Most yordles are jokes to Noxians, and a sadistic Noxian might decide to have some cruel fun at a yordle's expense. Yordles' weird community-focused mindset probably comes off as even more alien and strange than Demacia's; I imagine Noxians have a very hard time understanding yordles, and yordles probably have a very hard time understanding Noxians. (But when do they hug?)

Fed by Snu Snu4 votes

Skewed morality ain't bad enough?

I'd say it's worse, but what do I know. Riot wants to please teenagers, which most likely have trouble understanding morality.

Dreamspitter1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fed by Snu Snu,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=LnOcrwdk,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-25T11:43:18.920+0000)

Skewed morality ain't bad enough?

I'd say it's worse, but what do I know. Riot wants to please teenagers, which most likely have trouble understanding morality.

And yet.................

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/18/league-of-legends-infographic-highlights-eye-popping-numbers

51% are between 19 and 25

I dont know how much are older, but I cant say how many are 13-16 years old.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

And then you have lore being written as if it's campfire stories.

Rito has always been questionable on their target groups.

Dreamspitter1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fed by Snu Snu,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=LnOcrwdk,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-01-26T10:01:28.448+0000)

And then you have lore being written as if it's campfire stories.

Rito has always been questionable on their target groups.

All season 4, the BEST lore was Braum's lore.

If this is about LEGENDS, the characters actually being legendary ....that's how it should be.

501st Big Mike4 votes

Demacia does already have its own version of a dark side, and Noxus kinda has its version of a good side. The problem, as I see it, is that they aren't emphasized enough by riot. Although, I guess it makes sense for Demacia to try and hide its dark side, but it could still be more apparent to players.

Demacia prides itself as the defender of justice and morality. Which, in a general sense, its a good thing and helps paint then as a heroic nations of sorts. The problem is, they enforce the Monarchy's version of justice and morality, and use their generally good intentions to justify any action they take (e.g. "What we do is RIGHT!"). If starving peasants from Noxus were forced to leave their homes because their house was burnt to the ground, if they were to step one toe in Demacian territory the Demacians would not help them or give any kind of pity; they would instantly execute them and claim, "It matters not their situation. They are Noxians and all Noxians are evil. We did the world a favor by ridding it of these vermin." When in fact, they just murdered unarmed civilians that were desperate for help in cold blood.

Noxus' good side comes out of comparing it to Demacia's flaws. Take how Demacia has a very strict hierarchy: everyone is pretty much stuck in the position their born into. Which means, with a few very rare exceptions, the majority of the population is forced to the life of a peasant with no means to advance oneself. To quote one of the loading screens little messages, "Noxus believes that strength, in all its forms, determines the worth of an induvidual." This means that if a person is really good at something, as strength in this statement is clearly meant to not be solely about physical power, they could advance themselves in life. The idea of being able to advance oneself through one's own skill is a pretty core American value, and Noxus has it while Demacia bitterly opposes it with its hierarchy system.

darkdill3 votes

I'm hoping Riot will introduce a Demacian "Dark Knight" Champion ala Cecil (FF4).

Something like...
http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/cf2a25a59852150a33461160310cd5de.jpg

Fights for good and to protect the innocent, but is corrupted by a dark power that threatens to change his/her ideals. Differs from Varus in that he/she uses this power for good, while Varus wants to commit genocide against Noxus.

Shíny6 votes

Kassadin

GreenLore9 votes

The problem would be that it would probably put demacia as a whole into an even more positvie light,if they even accept those who who are corrupted by some kind of magic,which would show that they are open to even more people,especially if the champ in question isn't a bad person him/herself.

Terra Booma1 votes

Well what if they DON'T accept him? Say there's a character like this, but is actually an outcast, having to hide from Demacian Special Forces to stop people who want to do bad. He wants to protect the people, but they wont' let him.

GreenLore1 votes

That on the other hand would certainly be a nice step into the right direction,because currently demacia seems to be too good(ok there is this thing about the child soldiers,but that was a one-time-thing and noxus did stuff that was much worse).

Overall dark magic doesn't always equal evil magic,but I could imagine demacia seeing dark magic as impure just because of its very nature.

Terra Booma1 votes

Would be interesting quotes with Vayne and Lucian too, stuff along the lines of not wanting to hurt

"I am a Protector Vayne! Even if you don't agree!"

be even better if he/she was a support in game

Sneak Dog3 votes

I kind of got the feeling with Noxus that Noxus uses someones race for a first impression, but if anyone proves his competence, this proof is just taken instead without consideration for race. Humans just have an initial leg up.

If I'm wrong here, making it this would seem appropriate for Noxus to me.

Demacia however is the shining beacon of all that is good and right in the world! Xenophobia does not fit here, Demacia would lead all these non-humans to enlightenment too! Demacia will save the world! I think Demacia is good-hearted but a bit extremist. They want everyone else to think as they do because their way of thinking is simply right. Criminals would be both heavily prejudiced against and attempted to reform (if they survive their punishment). Outsiders would be attempted to convert. Neighbours would hold eachother to the strict Demacian ideals. If you skim over Demacia, it should seem entirely fine. Then when you start thinking about it, it should be a bit uncomfortable. Demacia is a bit too rigid, too certain of it's own righteousness. They wouldn't exactly force you to think like them, just *encourage *it and tolerate your wrong way of thinking as long as it isn't too evil.

As for ambiguous actions, I definitely think Demacia can make these. They just can't sit idle when evil is done. They would annex a small defenceless area into Demacia for their own protection, even if the inhabitants are telling Demacia to let them die by Noxian hand (well, that's Demacias perspective...).
And what's wrong with mass deforestation? They'll only cut half the trees at a time and replant them so they can cut the other half in fifty years. No harm done and more wood for the war machine. If Noxus is chopping the same forest, they might start some more aggressive strategies to ensure that the forest doesn't fall into Noxian hands, but that's only logical. If they for example wouldn't burnt down a certain part of a forest, Noxus would've taken hold of it and made it into an outpost.

and then what3 votes

This is why I play the Shadow Isles

Ethereal3112 votes

Oh boy, here we go. I've been meaning to talk about Swain as being not the absolute bad guy (something that the new Sion lore has now declared as being canon). In my opinion it was the late Boram Darkwill (he's actually a necromancer according to the very old lore, so he could very well be feigning death or simply busy biding his time to resurrect) who was the true tyrant and ruled with an iron fist. I wanted to consider the possibility that Swain is trying to improve Noxus (we haven't gotten a look into Noxian society after the JoJ ended and we don't know much about agriculture and industry in Noxus beyond the entertainment and warrior society) through infrastructure after the IoW (lol no longer there, ty Rito) implemented penalties on Noxus after the invasion of Ionia. Perhaps Beatrice has given him visions of what the world might become if a rift into the Void were truly to open, and Noxus was on the same level as the Soviet Union as it collapsed (literally had no money to spare to improve from the amount of militarization they did during the hotter points of the Cold War) so it seemed imperative to improve the Noxian economy. Thing was that Boram thought differently (he had already lived for 200 years or something according to the old and original lore, so what did he care?) and believed that Noxus could continue moving onwards through simple faith and belief (alright, we're moving into my own canon here, but hear me out), so Swain knew that Boram had to be removed. The question was, how do you stop an incredibly necromancer that could probably revive his dying (note dying) body? You could kill him in one single explosion if you planted it right. Or, you could prevent his mind from even working. As two of his abilities (Decrepify and Torment) are both abilities that strike at the psyche of his foes, Swain would be the bane of any mage who relied on their minds to conduct magic (he could almost be Night Stalker, without hating the Sun so much). If he could focus his powers, then he could very well cause a man's mind to shatter. Guess what, he has Beatrice. Swain removed Boram from his equation so that Noxus could very have stood a chance in the future, and now Boram's allies want him dead. And Boram made everyone useful his ally, everyone from the media to Zaunic officials.

Those are just my thoughts and rant on what my own canon is, but at least this should be a good read.

Rainbowgasm1 votes

In Lux's Judgement, she was drafted as a child against her will, and was then basically brainwashed by Demacian propaganda while she was training. Demacia could become a bastard child of Monarchy and Communism in that sense to be completely opposite to Noxus with their weird Anarchist Fascism.

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

In Lux's Judgement, she was drafted as a child against her will, and was then basically brainwashed by Demacian propaganda while she was training. Demacia could become a bastard child of Monarchy and Communism in that sense to be completely opposite to Noxus with their weird Anarchist Fascism.

Which makes no damn sense because I dont see anarchy in Noxus. That and facism is deeply authoritarian.

Rainbowgasm1 votes

{quoted}

Which makes no damn sense because I dont see anarchy in Noxus. That and facism is deeply authoritarian.

it doesn't have to make sense, it's a video game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4XenU6tyI

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

it doesn't have to make sense, it's a video game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4XenU6tyI

Makes more sense than what you made up. XD

NuMurica. Crazy as #%*& but....patriotic as hell.

In some ways, he sounds Noxian, but I dont think someone like Swain for example would support those ideas.

Now....What if there was a 3rd player?

Other than Swain and the Black Rose in Noxus?

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

there was the Darkwill family, also there is the whole DuCouteau affair

Dreamspitter1 votes

{quoted}

there was the Darkwill family, also there is the whole DuCouteau affair

#ULTRAFOOOOOOOOOORCE!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9M2VpgVxLQ

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

Cool, never heard of that I just randomly chose my name since I like Legend of Zelda and wanted an easy name to remember.

TheUntitledKing1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4XenU6tyI

Yo. Yo. This should have been the Sion rework.

Rainbowgasm1 votes

{quoted}

Yo. Yo. This should have been the Sion rework.

nah, this would fit DrMundo better

TheUntitledKing2 votes

nah, this would fit DrMundo better

Eh, patriotism is more Sion's wheelhouse.

*Coherent speech is more Sion's wheelhouse.

Sincarnation1 votes

Uhh they already did this to a lesser extent. Demacia isnt the shining star of goodness the portray themselves as, Lux was ripped from her home as a child and forced into military service remember? While Noxus is by no means a good place, they are a strict Meritocracy. They dont care about your gender, sexual orientation, or race as long as you are strong you will be recognized and accepted.

Dont get me wrong I would like more, but its not like it is absent entirely

More from Story, Art, & Sound

More by Social Justice 1