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Making Demacia more questionable/Giving Noxus a good side

Social Justice 1·1/25/2015, 9:37:01 AM·44 votes·6,722 views

One of Riot's complaints with their established lore is that Noxus is heavily painted as evil Poppy Veigar Galio Alistar XinZhao while the worst we've seen out of Demacia is skewed morality Vayne and how highly they place duty over personal well-being Lux

So let's see what we can swap around to even them out a bit more. Grey and Grey is a bit popular in media, but it beats out Black with some fade and White with a few spots on it.

1: Make Demacia the one with the anti-human sentiments. Noxus is the city-state that does not care who you are, as long as you are strong. Demacia is deeply rooted in their traditions, so xenophobia would make more sense on them. Show that Alistar was granted a home solely to spite Noxus, and that many Demacians find his activism uncomforting. Have Poppy and Nunu (who brings Willump along) be given substandard treatment as diplomats. Make Demacia detest Zaun even further with the number of "abnormalities" in their streets. Vayne is considered a hero to many citizens for her hatred towards the "unpure." Galio and Shyvana are even more feared by the public.

2: Add some paranoia (Especially with Piltover). Piltover and Zaun have their own stories, but are also given this "Demacia vs Noxus" development. With Noxus and Zaun being proud partners of each other, emphasizing that Demacia is wary of trusting Piltover would further the differences between them while also establishing Demacia as not the best place to live. Maybe it's their trust of Yordles. Maybe Demacia is too proud to accept the sciences of Piltover so easily. You can also make Demacia less eager to claim the Averosan tribe as the accepted leaders of the Freljord, while Noxus agrees whoever has the largest army should be in charge (this would require cementing the Winter's Claw as a smaller, more radical operation).

3: Give Demacia some bad calls. I don't think retconning The Fleshing is the right move, since it is a perfect example of the Noxian mindset. And the invasion of Ionia is too important for several character's backstories (maybe too many from Ionia). Give Demacia a piece of the pie. They could annex independent land "for their safety" or take part in environmentally-unfriendly actions like mass deforestation in order to grow (Perhaps that could be the new Plague Jungles, considering the former was caused by the Rune Wars).

4: More Demacian champion lines that bring out this morality. The perfect existing example is Garen's "What we do is RIGHT" line. Maybe bring in some lines for Lux that show past her positive personality or have Xin Zhao occasionally wonder if he will ever be more than a weapon.

tl;dr With the lore revamp, don't cut out a lot of stuff and then have nothing to replace it. That's the lazy writing Riot wanted to avoid with the retcon. Also less Demacia=good Noxus=bad stuff

83 Comments

GreenLore1/25/2015, 1:15:28 PM31 votes

Overall I'd say that they shouldn't retcon demacia into the racist city state,while making noxus suddenly the one that welcomes other races,they could do however some kind of twist about this.

Demacia could be the city state where other races are more easily accepted,but they have almost zero chance to get into the upper class of society

Noxus would be the complete opposite a city state where other races aren't accepted that easily,but once they manage to prove themselves are actually treated as equals on all levels.

Aside from that I would like to see some more extreme(or downright evil?) demacians,I think it was said at one point that the king also has a council who has quite some influence.I'd say it'd be interesting if a council member would actually be willing to do some stuff others wouldn't agree too Or another possibility would be someone who takes the "demacia are the good guys"-thing a little bit too far and sees all others as evil,suffering from a black-white morality where he can't see something in-between.

CupcakeTrap1/25/2015, 6:38:19 PM22 votes

This thread is relevant to my interests. This is an ongoing topic in Factions lore.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Yin_yang.svg/1024px-Yin_yang.svg.png

My preferred version of this dichotomy is what I would describe as "yin-yang". I don't mean to bring in all the fancier elements of that concept, but simply the visual effect. I see Demacia as "Light, with a dash of Dark" and Noxus as "Dark, with a dash of Light". I think it's important that Demacia remain heroic, and Noxus villainous, at least by the standards of conventional morality. I would disagree with graying it out to the point where they're both scummy and awful; I'd rather have one be "awesomely good" (Superman) and one be "awesomely evil" (Darth Vader). However, it's almost as important that Demacia has an evil side, and Noxus has a good side.

You make it sound like a minor thing, but I think Demacia's subjugation of the individual is a pretty hefty dark side. Lux isn't getting the worst of it, either. There are probably many talented, clever, heroic commoners in Demacia who will never know a life beyond working the fields. (Given that Demacia is not "medieval Europe" so much as "our most glorious fantasies about medieval Europe", they aren't wretched slaves abused by their wicked masters, but they're still subjugated, and are expected to happily serve their "betters" regardless of actual merit.) Sure, any commoner who ends up imbued with Champion-level power would be snatched up; if a peasant kid suddenly starts being able to throw ox-carts around or rip trees out of the ground, you're going to slap her in some plate mail and send her to the armies or the League. But anything short of being an actual Champion is probably not enough to make a difference in your lot.

And I also think the brutal honesty and openness of Noxian society is a considerable "good" trait. Imagine a world where nobody hid their potential or let themselves be guilted or pushed around, and where nobody had to be told to "follow their dreams". And imagine a world where people who screw others over get what's coming to them. In certain ways, society might be "better" if insults or oppression brought duels to the death. Comcast charges too much for cable? STAND AND FIGHT, TECH SUPPORT MAN. I WILL AUGMENT MY NEXT PAYMENT WITH YOUR HEAD! Most of us probably would not want to live in Noxus, but it would be pretty cool until we lost and ended up on a spike.

But I think it's important that we keep it tropey for these two polarized nation states, and have Demacia's dark side be a "good guy dark side" (like Superman's arrogance) and Noxus's good side be an "EVIL IS AWESOME" sort of trait (like Darth Vader totally choking that stuffy uniform dude with the FORCE).

There is a certain school of thought which says that "darker and grittier is better". I went through a phase like that. I felt a certain liberation after years and years of fairy tale simplicity in exploring the awful realities of our world. But after gorging myself on grit, I also gained a new appreciation for bright-and-clean fairy-tale storytelling. There is incredible power there, and it's not so "unrealistic" as I once thought. I think that, for Demacia and Noxus at least, you want to play it straight—just not completely straight.

have Xin Zhao occasionally wonder if he will ever be more than a weapon.

I enjoyed writing this Factions piece, which explores Xin Zhao's mindset. I don't think Xin Zhao is a conventional Demacian, but in a way I think he explores some of their values and philosophies more deeply than most Demacians who memorize The Measured Tread as toddlers. I think he ultimately embraces his singular role as protector of the crown, but I think the intensity of his commitment does trouble him. The absoluteness of his commitment is exhilarating, but also troubling. (Kierkegaardian Xin Zhao)

Gallowgrim1/25/2015, 1:52:07 PM13 votes

Considering the disturbing fascist elements of Demacia already in place ("No retreat,no surrender, no excuses!" and that whole sordid child-soldier affair with Lux - and probably any other magickal child prodigy in Demacia,there's no reason to suspect she's an isolated case...) well....

At ;east Noxus doesn't lie about what they are as a society. They do awful things but by Jove they own them, unlike Demacia's hypocrisy.

Demacia's never been the "Good Guy" to my view.

Hinagiku331/25/2015, 3:01:51 PM10 votes

Even from the old Journal of Justice I at least got the impression that there were multiple sides in Noxus. Unless Katarina's entire existence has been upended (totally possible at this point) then I'm pretty sure she, Talon, and probably Cass would stand against Swain for most-likely murdering her and Cass' father when he was sweeping into power. Riven is explicitly stated as still believing in Noxus' core values of the strong ruling over the weak but feeling that Noxus strayed from those values with the unethical Zaun-Teamkilling-Party.

Riven doesn't need to be "redeemed" by becoming a shiny Demacian paladin. She needs to help reform Noxus and Kat and her crew could easily form a faction that can effectively plot against Swain and the Black Rose and not be wholly evil. Granted, Kat and Talon are still assassins and Kat is a bloodthirsty little thing but they can probably channel that to a good cause.

Team Swain: Swain Leblanc Darius Draven Sion Singed

Team Kat: Katarina Talon Cassiopeia Riven

Noxus can be "not inherently evil but currently ruled by terrible people". It can be awesome.

Then it's time to give Demacia an internal enemy/traitorous faction...

Xulsigae1/25/2015, 8:56:19 PM7 votes

I think many of the claims that Demacia is bad because of monarchy and such are flawed, as we never really see the monarchy as being bad or any worse than Noxus. Is Jarvan III a terrible person? Is he mad? Does he execute people on whims? His son Jarvan IV seems very competent and caring. Just because it's a monarchy doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. As for social mobility, it's been shown to be possible to move up, but it's hard admittedly. But at least if someone is trying to kill you, something would be done about it. I can't find any instances of atrocities committed by the Demacian military, at least anywhere close to the scale of the Noxians. I don't think Demacia's 'dark side' is at all dark, at least compared to how Noxus is presented to us.

Noxus' claims to be open to competence and such aren't very well demonstrated in what we see of it. The competence they seem to value is how well you can kill your way up the ladder, or just how well you can kill period. They have executions and torture as mass entertainment. Noxus also seems to have aristocracy and inherited positions, so social mobility isn't its strong point either. The leadership has shown they will commit genocide and use chemical warfare. The city looks like a skull as well...

In essence, Demacia's darkness is hardly dark, and Noxus' light is oh so very dark from what I see. Perhaps they should be a bit more balanced, but not because of monarchy and social mobility.

kDrakari1/25/2015, 8:04:38 PM7 votes

I'm not an expert on the lore, but the impression that I got from what I HAVE read is that historically Noxus and Demacia are actually very similar. They were both city-states with essentially military rule, a strong sense of "honor", and a desire to expand. Demacia had its idea of "justice" for sure, while Noxus valued simply "strength" above all else, but they were both war-like nations trying to expand through conquest. The development from there was slightly different; Noxus's "strength" became "victory at any cost" which gave rise to much more underhanded tactics among the leadership over time, something that has some opposition among citizens who support the old "honor" (Riven Sion). On the other side, Demacia's "justice" was basically just a pretty name to put on "force everybody to do what we want", practically brainwashing people to put the nation's desire ahead of their own (Lux) and leading to a very "us or them" approach where anybody is "accepted" once they swear completely that Demacian Justice is 100% a better option than death the best option.

Now, some of that is basically made up on the spot, some of it is significantly based on the extra/alternate lore in the Factions universe, and none of it is cross-checked with any official lore, but it fits with what I remember. Showing it could simply be done through little things of the "outsider" champions acknowledging that they don't entirely believe in the Demacian way, but feel too much pressure to actually admit it publicly.

Or you can just have them be racist. That could also work.

LordHippoman1/25/2015, 9:59:55 AM6 votes

I actually don't think the Rune Wars were retconned, I think they did still happen, but the League was never formed to prevent another one. I'm not entirely sure on that though.

More on topic, I like a lot of these ideas. I'd really like to see Riven make a return to Noxus and challenge some of their more skeevy practices, what with the chemical nuking of their own troops and all that. Of course, Swain wouldn't be a fan, but perhaps someone like Katarina or Talon could be persuaded. Noxus is sort of teetering on the edge of a big reform with the death of their centuries old Grand General anyway, add some more uncertainty to the way that will proceed.

I'd be anxious about further retcons, just because a lot of this is pretty set in stone with bios and stories like Veigar's and Alistar's (regarding the whole human supremacy thing), but I do like the idea of Noxus being less cartoonishly racist. Maybe our next Yordle champ could be working for Swain? He seems too smart to count out a potential powerful ally simply due to their race, and charismatic enough to talk his people into dealing with it...and imposing enough to force them if need be. Giant demon bird and all.

Fed by Snu Snu1/25/2015, 11:43:18 AM4 votes

Skewed morality ain't bad enough?

I'd say it's worse, but what do I know. Riot wants to please teenagers, which most likely have trouble understanding morality.

501st Big Mike1/25/2015, 8:05:46 PM4 votes

Demacia does already have its own version of a dark side, and Noxus kinda has its version of a good side. The problem, as I see it, is that they aren't emphasized enough by riot. Although, I guess it makes sense for Demacia to try and hide its dark side, but it could still be more apparent to players.

Demacia prides itself as the defender of justice and morality. Which, in a general sense, its a good thing and helps paint then as a heroic nations of sorts. The problem is, they enforce the Monarchy's version of justice and morality, and use their generally good intentions to justify any action they take (e.g. "What we do is RIGHT!"). If starving peasants from Noxus were forced to leave their homes because their house was burnt to the ground, if they were to step one toe in Demacian territory the Demacians would not help them or give any kind of pity; they would instantly execute them and claim, "It matters not their situation. They are Noxians and all Noxians are evil. We did the world a favor by ridding it of these vermin." When in fact, they just murdered unarmed civilians that were desperate for help in cold blood.

Noxus' good side comes out of comparing it to Demacia's flaws. Take how Demacia has a very strict hierarchy: everyone is pretty much stuck in the position their born into. Which means, with a few very rare exceptions, the majority of the population is forced to the life of a peasant with no means to advance oneself. To quote one of the loading screens little messages, "Noxus believes that strength, in all its forms, determines the worth of an induvidual." This means that if a person is really good at something, as strength in this statement is clearly meant to not be solely about physical power, they could advance themselves in life. The idea of being able to advance oneself through one's own skill is a pretty core American value, and Noxus has it while Demacia bitterly opposes it with its hierarchy system.

darkdill1/25/2015, 10:44:46 AM3 votes

I'm hoping Riot will introduce a Demacian "Dark Knight" Champion ala Cecil (FF4).

Something like...
http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/cf2a25a59852150a33461160310cd5de.jpg

Fights for good and to protect the innocent, but is corrupted by a dark power that threatens to change his/her ideals. Differs from Varus in that he/she uses this power for good, while Varus wants to commit genocide against Noxus.

Sneak Dog1/25/2015, 1:38:06 PM3 votes

I kind of got the feeling with Noxus that Noxus uses someones race for a first impression, but if anyone proves his competence, this proof is just taken instead without consideration for race. Humans just have an initial leg up.

If I'm wrong here, making it this would seem appropriate for Noxus to me.

Demacia however is the shining beacon of all that is good and right in the world! Xenophobia does not fit here, Demacia would lead all these non-humans to enlightenment too! Demacia will save the world! I think Demacia is good-hearted but a bit extremist. They want everyone else to think as they do because their way of thinking is simply right. Criminals would be both heavily prejudiced against and attempted to reform (if they survive their punishment). Outsiders would be attempted to convert. Neighbours would hold eachother to the strict Demacian ideals. If you skim over Demacia, it should seem entirely fine. Then when you start thinking about it, it should be a bit uncomfortable. Demacia is a bit too rigid, too certain of it's own righteousness. They wouldn't exactly force you to think like them, just *encourage *it and tolerate your wrong way of thinking as long as it isn't too evil.

As for ambiguous actions, I definitely think Demacia can make these. They just can't sit idle when evil is done. They would annex a small defenceless area into Demacia for their own protection, even if the inhabitants are telling Demacia to let them die by Noxian hand (well, that's Demacias perspective...).
And what's wrong with mass deforestation? They'll only cut half the trees at a time and replant them so they can cut the other half in fifty years. No harm done and more wood for the war machine. If Noxus is chopping the same forest, they might start some more aggressive strategies to ensure that the forest doesn't fall into Noxian hands, but that's only logical. If they for example wouldn't burnt down a certain part of a forest, Noxus would've taken hold of it and made it into an outpost.

and then what1/25/2015, 8:30:53 PM3 votes

This is why I play the Shadow Isles

Ethereal3111/30/2015, 11:27:22 AM2 votes

Oh boy, here we go. I've been meaning to talk about Swain as being not the absolute bad guy (something that the new Sion lore has now declared as being canon). In my opinion it was the late Boram Darkwill (he's actually a necromancer according to the very old lore, so he could very well be feigning death or simply busy biding his time to resurrect) who was the true tyrant and ruled with an iron fist. I wanted to consider the possibility that Swain is trying to improve Noxus (we haven't gotten a look into Noxian society after the JoJ ended and we don't know much about agriculture and industry in Noxus beyond the entertainment and warrior society) through infrastructure after the IoW (lol no longer there, ty Rito) implemented penalties on Noxus after the invasion of Ionia. Perhaps Beatrice has given him visions of what the world might become if a rift into the Void were truly to open, and Noxus was on the same level as the Soviet Union as it collapsed (literally had no money to spare to improve from the amount of militarization they did during the hotter points of the Cold War) so it seemed imperative to improve the Noxian economy. Thing was that Boram thought differently (he had already lived for 200 years or something according to the old and original lore, so what did he care?) and believed that Noxus could continue moving onwards through simple faith and belief (alright, we're moving into my own canon here, but hear me out), so Swain knew that Boram had to be removed. The question was, how do you stop an incredibly necromancer that could probably revive his dying (note dying) body? You could kill him in one single explosion if you planted it right. Or, you could prevent his mind from even working. As two of his abilities (Decrepify and Torment) are both abilities that strike at the psyche of his foes, Swain would be the bane of any mage who relied on their minds to conduct magic (he could almost be Night Stalker, without hating the Sun so much). If he could focus his powers, then he could very well cause a man's mind to shatter. Guess what, he has Beatrice. Swain removed Boram from his equation so that Noxus could very have stood a chance in the future, and now Boram's allies want him dead. And Boram made everyone useful his ally, everyone from the media to Zaunic officials.

Those are just my thoughts and rant on what my own canon is, but at least this should be a good read.

Rainbowgasm1/26/2015, 1:49:10 AM1 votes

In Lux's Judgement, she was drafted as a child against her will, and was then basically brainwashed by Demacian propaganda while she was training. Demacia could become a bastard child of Monarchy and Communism in that sense to be completely opposite to Noxus with their weird Anarchist Fascism.

Sincarnation1/26/2015, 8:03:14 AM1 votes

Uhh they already did this to a lesser extent. Demacia isnt the shining star of goodness the portray themselves as, Lux was ripped from her home as a child and forced into military service remember? While Noxus is by no means a good place, they are a strict Meritocracy. They dont care about your gender, sexual orientation, or race as long as you are strong you will be recognized and accepted.

Dont get me wrong I would like more, but its not like it is absent entirely