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Does Anybody Actually Like Demacia?

Caretaker Jack··48 votes·17,781 views

It feels like Riot's whole nuance approach worked wonders for Noxus, but it butchered Demacia.

Its sad because they used to be the good guys and now they're these cult-ish bigots cowering behind a wall. Far as we know, they're racist because we aren't actually certain if they know Shyvana is half dragon. And, it gets worse because the map gives us enough information to infer that they have no intention of spreading their ideals or influence so whatever variation they have now, is as much as they're ever going to get Lucian . I mean, these guys are so fucking selfish it's unreal. Aside from Lux and Lucian, everyone is either too patriotic or an outright asshole. Hell, Vayne killed her teacher in cold blood..

Something has to give, Riot... I see Kayle and Morgana listed under Demacia, but I'm really hoping the narrative team do something about this. Demacia used to be awesome because they were the heroes. Surely we can find a silver lining somewhere? A sweet spot or something.

Also, what happened to the commando skin line? Hello??

Poppy Fiora Quinn Shyvana

I'm so sick of Demacia being so unlikable. Leave comments guys, correct me if i'm wrong. Where are all the Demacia lovers at?

145 Comments

6FlagsFunnelCake41 votes

People often point out Demacia's cons, which is understandable, but I personally see just as many pros in Demacia to match them with Noxus.

Demacia is very unity-oriented, in the idea that everyone in Demacia is considered a Demacian, and every Demacian deserves a chance at a good life. Where Noxus has CONSTANT inner-conflicts with city-states and territories rebelling or outright causing a large scale war, Demacia is pretty unified and they all share a common ideal to treat one another with care (as seen in For Demacia, for instance). Sure patriotism can be seen as a negative to some, but in Demacia's case it's a very key part of their culture.

Along with that, Demacian's aren't all assholes. You mention Lux and Lucian to be the only Demacians that aren't assholes, but that's simply not true. Galio is the jolliest stone guardian despite having some mellow undertones, Poppy is pretty innocent, Quinn simply wants to do her duty in honor of her twin brother and even Garen is a very honorable and kind soldier who has an ideal that none of his soldiers should ever be left behind, he was even willing to have his memory wiped in order to save a rookie soldier in his color story. Now VAYNE on the other hand...THAT'S a pretty bad cookie.

And most of all, Demacia's just in general one of the most sustainable landscapes in all of Runeterra, which is why they're so secluded from everyone else. They are perfectly fine living within their own walls, with plenty of fertile ground and natural resources to sustain the people.

AugustHeatHaze22 votes

honestly every Demacian champion is nice except for vayne

lets go through the list

you already mentioned lux, ,lucan, galio, poppy, quinn, garen.

But the others who aren't vayne also aren't assholes?

Xin Zhao? Rescued from terrible noxus fighting pits and now happily doin stuff in his adopted country

Sona was literally an orphan who got adopted and given the resources to help her musical talents grow

Fiora is really into fencing but uh shes not an asshole or anything she just comes off as really intense

Shyvana Is super nice too she helped jarvan!! and stuff yaknow! shes just a nice dragon lady

Jarvan sounds like he will be a much better king than the current one, read his lore.

jarvan and other younger demacians sound like they would work to change the attitudes towards magic the country has, if demacia's lore is allowed to progress, which is really the main con of the country.

edit: that last sentence was so confusing idk what i was saying, cleaned it up.

Haemonculus5 votes

I would agree here. The anti-magical attitude seems staunchly traditionalist and if they would flesh out the lore for Demacia, I would argue that we'd see individuals like Lux and Sona, maybe even Garen, being on the scale of accepting toward magic to outright promoting more magical use and inclusion. Jarvan, too, seems to be one of the young, open-minded individuals who will likely shift the political sphere of Demacia, too. I can't see why Shyvana wouldn't either, seeing as she's half-dragon. >.>

Who knows, though. We won't until they update the lore.

AugustHeatHaze3 votes

Thanks! I hope they update the lore, one thing that annoys me is that games tend to keep different factions lore in stasis for a long time but still try to act like theres any progression in story lol?

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

honestly every Demacian champion is nice except for vayne

lets go through the list

you already mentioned lux, ,lucan, galio, poppy, quinn, garen.

But the others who aren't vayne also aren't assholes?

Xin Zhao? Rescued from terrible noxus fighting pits and now happily doin stuff in his adopted country

Sona was literally an orphan who got adopted and given the resources to help her musical talents grow

Fiora is really into fencing but uh shes not an asshole or anything she just comes off as really intense

Shyvana Is super nice too she helped jarvan!! and stuff yaknow! shes just a nice dragon lady

Jarvan sounds like he will be a much better king than the current one, read his lore.

jarvan and other younger demacians sound like they would work to change the attitudes towards magic the country has, if demacia's lore is allowed to progress, which is really the main con of the country.

edit: that last sentence was so confusing idk what i was saying, cleaned it up.

You're only acknowledging half of my argument as the hardcore patriotic aspect is there for all of them, except Sona, who doesn't even talk.

AugustHeatHaze1 votes

can you give me examples of how the people i listed are too patriotic? Its just hard to talk about your argument without more details but i gladly will if you wana expand upon it

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

can you give me examples of how the people i listed are too patriotic? Its just hard to talk about your argument without more details but i gladly will if you wana expand upon it

You think Xin and J4 aren't zealous? It's plastered in, like, all their voice lines and one of them even scream Demacia. In game, those lines represent their thoughts unless they say it aloud. This applies to even Shyvana. It's literally all they think about. Lol. The Same goes for Quinn, Galio, and Garen... You might have an argument with Fiora, but she's still under the same ideology and stands by it. Poppy is more on the innocent side though, so I don't think she really fits the patriotic mold either.

AugustHeatHaze3 votes

honestly it feels like we are talking past eachother, you accuse me of not reading what you said, but it feels like you aren't reading what i said either, haemonculous added a really good addition and so is the post i replied to at the start of this thread!

No they aren't zealous because I know the context of thier voice lines when combined with out of game lore, also some of the voice lines are clearly not serious, jarvan says "demacia, get some" which is a reference... they are not the primary source for lore dude and you shouldn't treat them as such.

Based on the out of game lore Jarvan and xin show no indication of being overzealous about Demacias bad ideals.

galio literally says "Get behind me huddled masses" he is clearly a PROTECTOR thats what they all are, protectors of demacia, defenders from places like noxus who would wish to destroy them. They are protectors of the country, the people, the ones they love. Thats not overzealous thats beautiful. Id love to see them offer, key word offer, protection to people from all over runeterra, refugees coming to demacia and being welcomed, them offering to help other countries in various ways, for example they could team up to fight the watchers with the avarosians or team up with ionia and work together to stop noxus from being trash

Anyway we are talking about patriotism here, i think ill just quote captain america stuff instead of writing a whole thing

""""“It's because of my grandfather that I became a Young Avenger. But it's hard sometimes, to be a black kid carrying a name like "Patriot". I remember talking to Captain America about before he died, and he explained what Patriotism meant to him... It wasn't about blindly supporting your government. It was about knowing what your country could be, what it should be... And trying to lead it there through your example. And holding it accountable when it failed. I remember he said: "There's noting patriotic about corruption or cover-ups... or defending them. But exposing them, well, that takes a hero.”"""""

In jarvan's lore he becomes friends with shyvana which tells me he is more forward thinking than his father and is more about what demacia could be than what it is right now, he breaks bad traditions because they are bad event though they are traditions

also the famous "no you move" which was quoting mark twain, but anyway captain america says this to spiderman as part of the civil war arc

Here its big so ill just link it

SSmotzer23 votes

Demacia is as much as symbol of good as the U.S. is... Can... can you see the parallels there? Xenophobic, religious, powerful, holier than thou, isolationist culture but far reaching in their interference in other cultures, run by people who are out of touch with anyone else.

Like yeah, they do good, they fight the battles no one else can, but at the end of the day they are just a fallible as anyone else.

Kayle is the ultimate embodiment of Demacia, she is blinded by her own radiance, the only good is the greater good no matter the cost, she looks down at everyone, her sister any else who disagrees with her is a demon that must be destroyed, and there must be no corner for the darkness to escape her light.

Warlord Dienekes10 votes

The problem being that your description listed most of the crap about America and neglected “the Dream” a somewhat ridiculous idea of the potential greatness and inclusivity of the land. Where opportunity and will can get you far.

Basically, the noble fiction that makes the country work. Now don’t get me wrong, it is still a fiction and America is nothing without its gargantuan list of flaws. But that’s what adds the tension and drama of American history. Where we have the reality and all of its foibles and fuck ups. And the people working toward making that dream a reality.

Demacia, as of now, is just the mundane grievances and hypocrisy. Without the concept of what potential this territory has, and the ideals that could lead it to something better.

A supremely flawed society that is trying, despite the missteps and poor decisions to make itself better is something noble. There is a draw to it from the story perspective. Which Demacia doesn’t have. Leaving it, just kind of dull.

Amusingly, Noxus is the one that got "the Dream." This left Demacia just kinda there.

SangreDeNoche2 votes

{quoted}

Demacia is as much as symbol of good as the U.S. is... Can... can you see the parallels there? Xenophobic, religious, powerful, holier than thou, isolationist culture but far reaching in their interference in other cultures, run by people who are out of touch with anyone else.

Like yeah, they do good, they fight the battles no one else can, but at the end of the day they are just a fallible as anyone else.

Kayle is the ultimate embodiment of Demacia, she is blinded by her own radiance, the only good is the greater good no matter the cost, she looks down at everyone, her sister any else who disagrees with her is a demon that must be destroyed, and there must be no corner for the darkness to escape her light.

The U.S. has always been expanding or looking for where to expand next since its inception. Even during the period where the U.S. was refered to as isolationist the most, we went to war with Mexico and acquired a large chunk of land from Mexico, becaming a 3x bigger than we were before. People don't see it as "foreign policy" because it was in our backyard, but the fact of the matter is we were taking land from another country to expand. Here's a video that explains it better.

AugustHeatHaze2 votes

yea the us was literally a colony from the british empire who came over to america and fucked everything up, its like if noxus got so big that at one point part of the empire staged a revolution and won.

SangreDeNoche1 votes

{quoted}

yea the us was literally a colony from the british empire who came over to america and fucked everything up, its like if noxus got so big that at one point part of the empire staged a revolution and won.

And then realized this whole making smaller lands do what you say thing isn't so bad when you're the one on top lol

AugustHeatHaze3 votes

yup and this is why i don't like noxus

GreenLore14 votes

I wouldn't say that Demacia is so bad. The townspeople were pretty ok with Shyvana and overall Demacia looks out for the safety of their citizens,something that a lot of other factions don't really do. They might not be interested in sharing their stuff with others,but they are also not interested in conquering or harming other nations either and their horrible treatment of mages is essentially based around a misunderstanding of magical beings.

Anyway I think the reason why so many people dislike Demacia and Piltover is because these city states were originally depicted as "the good Noxus/Zaun",but now that Riot is trying to grey out the factions a bit more,they have to add a negative elements to Demacia/Piltover,while adding good ones to Zaun&Noxus,which sadly means for us,that Demacia & Piltover suddenly feel like hypocrites,because they've been depicted as good factions for such a long time and are suddenly worse than we expected,while we see Zaun and Noux as "not so bad afterall",since we now see the positive sides of these factions.

The freljord and Ionia were also depicted as purely good factions in the past,but they get greyed out by getting seperated into a bunch of subfactions,of which some are good,while others are bad.


Also you say the only decent demacians are Lucian and Lux,but I dunno how Galio(really just wants to protect the others,even though he has to sacrifice his ability to move every time) JarvanIV (risked his life fighting a dragon out of gratefulness for Shyvana and gave Shyvana a home even though it will likely cause problems for him in the future) & Poppy (tries to keep her promise to her friend after hundreds of years in order to protect demacia and its people) are awful people.(the same goes for Sona XinZhao Quinn Shyvana )

And even though Garen is pretty harsh,he is also the kind of guy who would risk his life to protect his friends,country and companions,so while he definitely has his bad sides,he also has a lot of good ones too.

Caretaker Jack2 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say that Demacia is so bad. The townspeople were pretty ok with Shyvana and overall Demacia looks out for the safety of their citizens,something that a lot of other factions don't really do. They might not be interested in sharing their stuff with others,but they are also not interested in conquering or harming other nations either and their horrible treatment of mages is essentially based around a misunderstanding of magical beings.

Anyway I think the reason why so many people dislike Demacia and Piltover is because these city states were originally depicted as "the good Noxus/Zaun",but now that Riot is trying to grey out the factions a bit more,they have to add a negative elements to Demacia/Piltover,while adding good ones to Zaun&Noxus,which sadly means for us,that Demacia & Piltover suddenly feel like hypocrites,because they've been depicted as good factions for such a long time and are suddenly worse than we expected,while we see Zaun and Noux as "not so bad afterall",since we now see the positive sides of these factions.

The freljord and Ionia were also depicted as purely good factions in the past,but they get greyed out by getting seperated into a bunch of subfactions,of which some are good,while others are bad.


Also you say the only decent demacians are Lucian and Lux,but I dunno how Galio(really just wants to protect the others,even though he has to sacrifice his ability to move every time) JarvanIV (risked his life fighting a dragon out of gratefulness for Shyvana and gave Shyvana a home even though it will likely cause problems for him in the future) & Poppy (tries to keep her promise to her friend after hundreds of years in order to protect demacia and its people) are awful people.(the same goes for Sona XinZhao Quinn Shyvana )

And even though Garen is pretty harsh,he is also the kind of guy who would risk his life to protect his friends,country and companions,so while he definitely has his bad sides,he also has a lot of good ones too.

I said they were either assholes or patriotic... Everyone on your list fits that mold except maybe Sona.... Also, Piltover isn't hated at all.

AugustHeatHaze5 votes

i think the issue is that you are portraying patriotism as a negative attribute when it doesn't necessarily have to be it just depends on what you mean by patriotism

GreenLore3 votes

Ah ok,I focused too much on the "asshole"-part of your comment,that I completely forgot about the patriotism-part,though I feel it is really odd to lump these 2 together.

And I still would say that Sona doesn't fit either of those.

Also I think Piltover actually received a thread that was very similar to this one after it got its lore expanded,because the Piltovians came off as a bunch of jerks that believe themselves to be better than everyone else and who actually flooded a part of Zaun just for their own convenience.

Quiet Dude13 votes

Noxus is True Neutral. Do whats necessary for the progress of Noxus at all costs but within limits. Dont rock the boat unless it needs to be rocked, as long as it goes forward.

Demacia is Lawful Good. Follow the rules and uphold a ridiculous code of conduct or face shaming and other consequences. They dont want you to rock the boat, or else.

Maybe I fudged my DnD alignment up, and I accept that, but thats the gist of it. Maybe one ideology you favor over others, and thats ok.

Its kind of like east meets west philosophy in a Runeterra sense.

HonestJohnTheCon8 votes

Demacia would be Lawful Neutral, probably.

Especially because this is a world where good and evil are subjective, rather than the D&D universe where good and evil are absolute truths and forces in the universe.

AugustHeatHaze5 votes

its not true neutral lol if anything its neutral evil, true neutral wouldn't try to take over the rest of the world.

HonestJohnTheCon2 votes

Counterpoints:

  1. Noxus, at least under the Trifarix's rule, is trying to unify the known part of Runeterra.
  2. They typically offer peaceful tactics to nations they want the land of before attempting force.
  3. They are equal-opportunity: anyone with the strength, skill, or smarts to rise in power can.
  4. Noxus treats invaded countries as part of Noxus, not particularly cruelly. The only possible exception I can think of is maybe Ionia, but this is also likely due to ignorance of Ionian rituals and customs.

Noxus is only as evil as any country that ever tried expanding their borders, which, to be frank, is most of them. Including the U.K., the U.S.A., most European states, etc.

They're pretty much neutral with a Machiavellian mindset. They're ruthless and ambitious, but they're not just complete pricks.

AugustHeatHaze10 votes

People always try to make the evil faction out to be better than it actually is, like caesers legion in fallout, im getting really tired of it.

Noxus, at least under the Trifarix's rule, is trying to unify the known parts of Runeterra

they are trying to force thier ideals on the known parts of runeterra, Its colonialism.

They typically offer peaceful tactics to nations they want the land of before attempting force.

doesn't matter its literally just "join us or die" not a positive point also source for that? I would compare it to the US forcing japan out of isolation.

They are equal-opportunity: anyone with the strength, skill, or smarts to rise in power can

"Survival of the fittest" isn't a morally sound way to run a country. Trying to give all people a good quality of life is. You can think differently, I just think thats messed up if you do. Swain is an amputee but is the commander, however he got to where he is because of his smarts, what do you think is going to happen to the "unfit" in noxus, People with downs syndrome for example, if i was asked which country would treat all disabled people better I would go with demacia, no hesitation.

Noxus is only as evil as any country that ever tried expanding their borders, which, to be frank, is most of them. Including the U.K., the U.S.A., most European states, etc.

You are describing colonialism which, yea, evil as fuck, im not going to debate this part if you disagree, its just too much to try to go through to be worth my time.

The only possible exception I can think of is maybe Ionia

Can you think of any other countries we actually have info on regarding noxus invading them where they were respectful?

They're pretty much neutral with a Machiavellian mindset

No they aren't, Havelock Vetinari is an example of a fictional more neutral ruler with a Machiavellian mindset, noxus is more akin to the british empire or any of the other countries that were expansionist as fuck. Including axis Germany except i guess you can replace race with "our ideology is the best" as thier reason for trying to fight everyone.

Warlord Dienekes4 votes

Technically, they're describing imperialism. Which may or may not be better, depending on which metric you're using. Generally with imperialism there is at least an attempt to make the conquered territories have the increased standard of living as the original conqueror. While colonialism is about taking the natural resources of the new territories for the benefit of the conqueror. And we know, at least in Swain's mind, Noxus improves what they conquer and tries to protect it.

The truth is rarely so clean, of course. And most attempts at imperialism has more than a dash of colonialism involved.

Anyway, I'm curious, with your view on good and bad societies. Where does one draw the line where conquest of others does improve the quality of life of your own people? Because that's usually how conquest works. Without it, we'd all still be in minor city-states that relies on direct trade with nearby city-states and has little to nothing in the way of a safety net for the population or the city-state itself.

AugustHeatHaze4 votes

i guess you are right that imperialism describes noxus's current deal more accurately but thats just as bad in my book soooo

im not sure what you mean by safety net? I cant imagine that the only way to get a safety net is to actively subjugate and conquer other societies though? im not a political expert and i focus on fixing relatively smaller issues that affect me and my friends NOW over big BIG picture stuff but i don't see why allying with other city states with similar interests wouldn't be possible, even deciding to form a new state with other states that includes both your cities and doesn't wipe out the various cultures of these cities.

edit: to be clear i meant giving your people a good quality of life while not lowering the quality of life for others in different countries.

Warlord Dienekes3 votes

Safety net in the terms of economic and agricultural policy, and from them that leads to the people.

In city-state societies, one bad disease, or bad harvest, or anything. And you're looking at about 30-70% of the population dying. When you start getting to empires. With the possible exception of the outskirts which haven't quite been incorporated to the imperial fold (for example Britain during the Roman Empire) when a plague or famine hits one section of the empire, it is mitigated by using the resources of the rest of the empire. This does not happen to nearly the same degree with city-states or smaller. Far more likely, you'll find those city-states with resources will close themselves off to the ones doing poorly. This is usually for their own safety, but also their own interest. What is there to gain from helping the dying city-state?

Nothing really. With the one possible exception that they may have some resource that is incredibly valuable to trade. Other than that, why open your borders to potential plague? Why use your food on others? Your people needs that food. Helping out this secondary city-state would likely lower your people's standard of living.

And if you lower your people's standard of living. Well then they might revolt. And if they revolt you lose your power and/or get killed.

No, it's best to just let the other city-state die.

This doesn't really happen in large non-colonial empires. Unless the whole empire is itself on the verge of collapse, which happens.

Now, you could attempt to get around this problem by making a league of city-states to band together with some diplomatic agreement. This has happened before, never particularly as successfully as empires though. For a few reasons. Usually, joining one of these diplomatic alliances means you're asking the leaders of the society to give up some of their political autonomy. That's hard to get people to agree to without the threat of violence behind it. The second is, it's very hard to enforce.

For a much larger scale example with the problems. Look at the United Nations and the earlier League of Nations. Sure all these, basically empires, agreed to abide by the rules. But what happens when they don't follow them anyway? What happened when Russia invaded Ukraine? There was a whole lot of talk about how Russia shouldn't be doing that. But nothing really came of it.

Getting a group of city-states to try and band together is like herding cats. For one of the most famous examples in history, I'm going to look to the war between Persia and Greece. There were over 1000 city-states in Ancient Greece. All the ones that took part in the Olympics agreed to defend each other from non-Greeks. Yet when the Persians did invade, only 30 of them decided to follow that agreement. And of those 30, 14 of them were forced to because they were under Spartan hegemony. Meaning if they didn't fight, Sparta was going to attack them. Or, if Sparta had been one of the city-states that decided not to fight the Persians, the coalition would have been cut in half.

That's the pretty much sad truth of the whole thing. There's a reason why, in terms of science, industry, and standard of living empires usually have it a bit better than those outside of the empire. Drawing up on more resources, more efficient distribution of those resources, and a more complex government structure allows basically everything we value as a society flourish.

Now, what I'm not suggesting is that you change your mind and start thinking that a state forcibly expanding their borders is always a good thing.

But I am suggesting that the world is a bit more complicated than the notion that if everyone just focused on increasing the standard of living for everyone everything would just get better (especially in pre-industrial civilizations)

AugustHeatHaze2 votes

if everyone focused on increasing the standard of living for everyone else that would be a good start but capitalism is getting in the way : \

I think you are looking at it from a more historical point of view while i am looking at it from a more modern point of view where we have huge leaps in technology for stuff like food production, medicine, etc, if only it was allowed to flourish better. You could easily argue that runeterra has similar technological capabilities except its in the form of magic and hextech and not pure science? Though honestly there are a lot of scientist like characters in the roster that I think could come up with modern equivalent of things if it wasn't so jarring thematically.

I still don't think that its good to ever forcibly expand upon other peaceful states or people or whatever, thanks for not trying to force me to change my mind on this its refreshing to have an ACTUAL discussion about this sorta thing, it is complicated in that there is more to increasing the standard of living for everyone than simply wanting to do so but I don't actually have the ability to give a whole rundown of all the different things you would need to do and think about and come up with solutions for or even historical examples that were successful in providing a safety net without attacking other people which im sure exist but if i go on a huge research binge it starts feeling like im writing an essay yaknow?

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

If you don't mind continuing because I'm enjoying this.

It's really easy to place all the problems of society on some big nebulous concept, like Capitalism. But, I really think that's oversimplifying things. For the most part because the grossest mistreatment of "the other" doesn't come from capitalism. The vast colonial expansion of the European Industrial empires was spread by Mercantilism. The Holocaust was caused by a variant on Socialism. No one wants to go back to Feudalism. And I'm not even going to get into the pure amount of deaths caused by the various attempts at making the Communist system actually function in practice instead of on paper.

Does this make Capitalism good? No. Hell no. In its purest expression of laissez-faire economic systems there is a general trend toward monopolies and exploitation of the unskilled labor force. And so laws and restrictions are added to attempt to mitigate that trend. With mixed success. Perhaps some day we'll figure out a better economic system. But so far our bastardization of Capitalism with a smattering of Socialist laws and restrictions is functional, if not technically optimal.

Anyway, on to technology and magic and what that means for economic systems. There are really only 2 territories explored in the lore thus far that actually do have the ubiquity of magic and tech to get that to work. Ionia and Piltover/Zaun.

The problem though is Ionia's magic seems tied to the land. So while they may make enough produce for themselves, spreading it out would be problematic. And then we get to Piltover/Zaun. Which I'm just going to call Zaun from now on, because it's fewer letters.

In Zaun we are looking at technology that is more advanced than what is available to us in the real world. And it appears to be mass-producible (otherwise the factories setting of Zaun wouldn't make sense).

But here is the problem, which the pre-Colonial European powers soon discovered upon discovering the power of industry. Fueling industry is hard and resource intensive. There's a reason why industrialism only pops up in already established empires (in the strictest sense of the word). England had successfully conquered the rest of its island, and had a nice chunk of France at the start. France had all of Gaul and a bit of what would be present day Germany. Spain had finally gained control of the entire Spanish Peninsula and driven out the Moors. It is in these places that Industry really kicks off. While the far more divided Holy Roman Empire and Italy (both of which were largely comprised of either city-states or feuding sub-territories) took quite a bit longer to get their act together and develop.

Germany, famously, had all the theoretical means of creating a large Industrial powerhouse, but didn't really succeed in pulling it off until Bismark united the German states.

The other time when Industry was close to being developed was during the height of Rome's power. We now know that the Romans had all the pieces of technology that could develop into industry at their disposal. They knew about mechanization and they knew about electricity. Only, they didn't develop Industry because their labor was already done efficiently through slave economies (I'll just add that one to the list of tried and failed economic structures).

Anyway, tangent aside. Zaun somehow developed industry alone. Now, what can they do with it? They need resources to fuel their industry. In the world of Runeterra that's the corpses of Skarner's people or something. This puts a hard limit on how far their influence can spread.

In the real world, industry is run based on steel, oil, and unrefined resources. If the goal is to gain those resources to funnel into industry and create a better life for your people you have two options. Option 1: Forcibly take those resources. Option 2: Trade for those resources.

Option 2 is definitely the nicer option. Unfortunately, you can't really control what your trading partner does with the resources you give them. They may just take everything you give and funnel it all into military tech and then try and use Option 1 on you. And, well, if you've been putting all your resources into increasing your people's standard of living you will lose that war. All the resources you used in medicine and food allocation will not save you, but it will make you look that much more tasty to your more aggressive neighbors.

Alright, so you're planning that you will be attacked in some later point. Probably by one of your trade partners. So, what can you do to save yourself while also helping out your people?

Military technology funding. Going back through time, funding for the military has been one of the most efficient methods of increasing your people's standard of living while also keeping your state defended. Where did steel come from? People trying to make a better armor. And after steel was created to make better armor people realized, hey, it can be used with plows! And suddenly there's an agricultural revolution. Where does the microwave come from? Military funding used to figure out how to fly their new planes in warfare. Now we don't have to cook food for hours every day, so we have more time for work and leisure. Where does the internet come from? Aircrafts? Telescopes? Rockets? More medicines than I can count? All of it military funded, all of it then used to help the civilian population.

Until, finally, military funding developed the bomb. The big one. Nuclear power. Destruction in a way the likes of which the world has never seen before. A technology that doesn't just let you win the war. But if dropped absolutely devastates everything.

Suddenly the idea of being invaded by your trading partner doesn't seem particularly likely. If they do, you can just nuke them. Mutually assured destruction. This, in theory, finally allows us to focus more on civilian advancing technology in earnest. And maybe, in theory, allows us to advocate a difference in economic system.

But it's hard to see where that will go. This is in uncharted territory as far as political, social, and economic history can determine. You'll get optimistic thinkers like Tesla who believed that the creation of such a super weapon would lead to the abandoning of war as an outdated method of establishing foreign policy.

Or you'll get pessimists like me who think we'll just nuke ourselves.

And as to historical people who managed to increase standards of living without conquest. I’ll do that work for you. There are only 2 that I am aware of (pre-Industrialism). The first was a small island chain with no outside contacts, off the coast of Africa so they couldn’t conquer anyone.

The second would be then Iroquois Confederation, if you squint at it. They actually were able to form a mutually beneficial coalition between five city-states (or tribes more accurately in this example) without war and it actually worked for a good while.

That said, the Iroquoians did go conquering at different times in their history. But there were large stretches where it seems they were peaceful and yet growing. Which is pretty good considering every other state roughly their size got that way almost entirely through violence.

Anidan4 votes

That won't work in the long-term simply because that's not how people work. That sounds like a cop-out, but it's also true. The only place that "just ally with your city-states and act as a mutually independent coalition of states" actually works is in hippie pipe-dreams. The closest thing we have to that right now is the EU, but even then there are major differences. Beyond that, the most known example of city-states trying to do that were Greek city-states, and we can see how that turned out (spoiler: in-fighting due to philosophical disagreements until eventually they were stomped out by a much more powerful army that didn't care so much about a bunch of city-states since they were part of one enormous and proud empire that could afford to fund a massive army).

There are many benefits for simply taking over the land or people in question over simply allying yourself with them, such as an increase in overall power of the empire/nation/whatever, which can lead into a snowball effect until it becomes overwhelmingly powerful. One of which is the increased trade due to possession of resources and most likely the means to refine said resources and manufacture goods from them. This gives you an economic windfall in case crap goes south. You also have a lot more mouths to feed, but you probably got more land than you had mouths, so you can also build up more surplus food in the event of bad year(s). Beyond that, you can funnel more money into civic projects, which is good for a host of reasons (civic projects being things like schools, monuments, libraries, etc), for basically everyone involved.

Now, for the people they took over: Given how it's been described at least, under Swain, the people they take over probably get to participate in Noxian benefits, such as the civic projects built, participation in what is likely a strong economy, the relative safety of being guarded by a very powerful military. And depending on where you lived, if it's anything like real life, you may barely ever even notice someone else was in charge.

A lot of very nice things humans can do as part of a nation, is considerably harder to do as a coalition of independent and autonomous city-states.

Now, does this mean I don't think Noxus is evil? I don't personally like Imperialism, so I don't like them... but they're not as immediately evil as their champions let on, but I think they're still probably evil. After all, you don't get to produce someone like Urgot and not be evil. Sorry. Definitely not as overtly evil as Caesar's Legion (which definitely did suffer from Obsidian being rushed on that one), though.

Fasmodey8 votes

Not the biggest fan but I like Demacia after its update.

Terozu7 votes

To be fair that gives Demacian characters room to grow, like how Garen despite his patriotic nature is clearly not 100% satisfied with his country, Lux will strive to change the nation, and even the next King seems to be in love with a half dragon.

tamaya6 votes

Every country has good and bad aspects. However, in the recent story I feel that it emphasizes only the bad aspects of Demacia.

Alzon5 votes

My favorite championed was retconned into a monotreme with the Demacian lore overhaul.

😢

Plus her fanfiction is generally trash.

KuroCaliber4 votes

Who is an egg laying mammal in demacia?

Ralanr5 votes

They intended to make Demacia more grey than it once was, and I like how they succeeded. Though what I would like is if we got an actual villainous character from Demacia that showcases the negative ideals, because so far most of the characters there go against them in some way.

Garen is the closest to staying with the ideals, but I don't think he's super comfortable with them. Considering his color story, I feel he's just grown to accept the good and the bad and feels odd when one is missing.

GhaelWinds2 votes

{quoted}

They intended to make Demacia more grey than it once was, and I like how they succeeded. Though what I would like is if we got an actual villainous character from Demacia that showcases the negative ideals, because so far most of the characters there go against them in some way.

Garen is the closest to staying with the ideals, but I don't think he's super comfortable with them. Considering his color story, I feel he's just grown to accept the good and the bad and feels odd when one is missing.

How does fiora go against Demacia Ideals? Xin Zhao? Quinn even?

Ralanr3 votes

Quinn and Fiora are easy, they’re women in power/of renown.

Fiora is the female head of a house where every other house is lead by men, and where women are more or less bargaining chips through marriage (which was an actual tactic in the past). Quinn is harder because I cannot remember her full position, but being from the countryside and (I think) being close or respected by J4 allows others to be envious.

Xin is literally a foreigner in a kingdom that’s xenophobic. Kinda seems easy to notice.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

Xin is literally a foreigner in a kingdom that’s xenophobic. Kinda seems easy to notice.

i dont think demacia is xenophobic, when they have adopted ionians, yordles, angels and even a half dragon.

HonestJohnTheCon5 votes

Yordles have a natural glamour and no one knows that they're yordles. The half-dragon helped save a village and helped the crown prince, who personally vouches for her. I'm willing to wager that not many other people know of her draconic nature. We have no idea about Kayle and Morgana. And Sona and Xin Zhao's lore is still up in the air. So it's not sure whether Demacia has adopted Ionians or not.

Ralanr4 votes

Bingo.

AugustHeatHaze2 votes

how is thier lore up in the air? It says sona was adopted by a demacian lady and xin is a rescued pit fighter from noxus on the universe page... is this stated to not be up to date by a red or something?

BlinkZZ1824 votes

Demacia is America. Noxus is Russia. Ionia is China.

tamaya5 votes

Demacia is Germany. Noxus is France(and Russia). America and England is Piltover. This is what I think.

Postscript Bilgewater- Spain,Oceania Frejlord- Scandinavia

Targon- Ancient Greece Blessed IslesーAncient Britannia

AugustHeatHaze2 votes

I think No runeterra culture is specifically modeled after a single real world culture, they draw from a bunch of different sources

Demacia draws from middle ages aesthetic. This includes middle ages germany, england, etc. Demacia's values are mythical in nature, what I mean by this is that they draw from stories, like Arthurian legends, its an idealist kingdom that doesn't actually reflect the reality of England in the middle ages

Noxus draws aesthetic from axis germany, gothic and basically more grim middle ages looks, sort of the opposite of demacia aesthetically. Its a expansionist empire that you could compare to a bunch of different ones, rome, the British empire, etc. It has a bunch of different looks for the champions, swain has a British accent for example iirc?

Bildgewater is "pirates" so spain, oceania, the carribean, etc. yea.

Frejlord is, yea, scandinavia, vikings, etc.

Targon, yea, Ancient Greece and roman stuff, at least aesthetically.

Blessed Isles, im actually not sure about this one because we know very little about it but I think its another "middle ages fantasy land" type deal? But im not sure! kalista has tanner skin in her human form but the rest of the shadow isles champs have a sort middle ages deal doing on I think? I honestly think it might just get changed significantly at some point.

Shurima is a mash up of egypt, and the middle east.

Ionia is a mashup of asia, india, china, japan, etc.

Piltover and zaun are kind of a steam punk Victorian type deal except its a different technology, chemtech and hextech, the twin cities basically feel to me like the same culture except people are separated into classes, aristocrats are in piltover, poor people are in zaun.

The Ecdysiast4 votes

I'm fairly certain racist doesn't extend to magical monsters. They hate MAGIC. So I'd say they probably dislike a lot of Vastayans too. But not because of anything racial.

It's akin to the mutants in X-men. They're of all different races. The mutant gene doesn't change the physical characteristics that determine race.

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

I'm fairly certain racist doesn't extend to magical monsters. They hate MAGIC. So I'd say they probably dislike a lot of Vastayans too. But not because of anything racial.

It's akin to the mutants in X-men. They're of all different races. The mutant gene doesn't change the physical characteristics that determine race.

So I guess dragons aren't magical monsters then, right? Like, I'm not fixed on just the human race here.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Caretaker Jack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=JZTtEFic,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-09-20T05:07:41.092+0000)

So I guess dragons aren't magical monsters then, right? Like, I'm not fixed on just the human race here.

No, I was specifically saying that dragons ARE magical monsters, not a RACE. So it's not "racist" to dislike dragons.

Caretaker Jack1 votes

{quoted}

No, I was specifically saying that dragons ARE magical monsters, not a RACE. So it's not "racist" to dislike dragons.

Since this is a game, I'm using race in a different way. Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Goblins, etc. are all different races... I blame D&D.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Caretaker Jack,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=JZTtEFic,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-20T05:20:46.687+0000)

Since this is a game, I'm using race in a different way. Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Goblins, etc. are all different races... I blame D&D.

Species, not race. D&D simply misused the term to make it easier for people to understand that all those creatures had human levels of sentience.

Kled Man Walking3 votes

the thing about demacia is that it's really the only viable place to live if you want to safely raise a family or get an education.

noxus has compulsory military service, the piltover-zaun area and bilgewater have huge income inequality, crime, and pollution issues, the freljord is the freljord, shurima has constant warring between demigods and is also a desert, and ionia is recovering from an invasion.

demacia doesn't have any major problems like that. it's the best place for the average person who just wants to live their life, and a lot of that can probably be attributed to their isolationist policies. that's what makes demacia interesting - not its normalcy and problems, but how it's successful in spite of (or maybe even because of) them.

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