The Biggest Problem with League Lore: Villains

ModCaptainMårvelous·8/23/2017, 3:54:37 AM·21 votes·6,362 views

I want to discuss a problem I have with league lore and something I feel is overall problematic with how Riot writes things. The biggest problem USED to be the overarching lack of retcons but instead, I want to focus on what I feel is more painful: The lack of villains. Please note that some of this will be personal opinion. Mostly on categorizing who I consider a hero/villain/etc. so don't get TOO mad at me if I consider your favorite champ to be a bit mean.

#Part 1: Actual Villain Count.

For this rundown, I'm going to be focusing mostly on regions that have gotten recent lore updates (Bilgewater-to-Demacia). Some (Ionia etc.) haven't had large scale updates while others (Freljord) might not be canon anymore. We're also going to allow for "recent" champions or champions who recently got lore (Darius for example). So while Ionia hasn't had a large scale update, it doesn't take a genius to know that Kayn's a bit of a bad dude.

So let's divide the groups:

##"Good" Guys. These characters are predominantly good and are recognized in-world as "good" people. Maybe not outright heroes but champions who are predominantly viewed as good. (Ornn would go here but no icon yet.)

Anivia Jax Blitzcrank Caitlyn Ekko Galio Ivern Janna JarvanIV Garen Jayce Lux Nami Nasus Orianna Poppy Rakan Quinn Shyvana Taliyah Taric Vi MonkeyKing Xayah Zac

##Neutral Nelsons These are champions who are a bit of a mix. Maybe they do bad but for good reasons. Maybe they've done some bad things but WANT to do good. Maybe they just don't give a shit and live as they live. Either way, these are characters who aren't outright good or bad.

Ahri AurelionSol Azir Bard Darius Diana Ezreal Fiora Gnar Graves Illaoi Kalista Leona LeeSin Kindred Kled Lucian Maokai MissFortune Pantheon Rammus Rengar Ryze Shen Skarner TwistedFate Varus Vayne Viktor Yasuo Yorick Sivir

##Bad Bastards These are champions who are outright evil. They display little-to-no care about doing the right thing or commit pretty shitty acts on a constant basis. Sometimes for an earnest goal, sometimes for their own gain. These are guys who are just jerks.

Aatrox Camille Cassiopeia DrMundo Draven Elise Gangplank Hecarim Jhin Jinx KaynKarthus Mordekaiser Singed Thresh Sion TahmKench Urgot Veigar Volibear Warwick Renekton Xerath

As an additional disclaimer, I know that some of these are open to argumentation or interpertation. Maybe you sympathize more with Camille and think she should be at least neutral. Maybe you think Sion's more of a tragic figure than any villain. Maybe you think Jayce is a bastard and not a hero at all. Either way, there is a predominant skew to characters who are good and/or do good things. Even among the neutral characters, a lot of them are just good people who do shitty things (Yorick, for example) in the name of getting their hands dirty so others don't have to.

#Part 2: Why this is a problem.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/Sinister_Six.jpg (Alex Ross is a god-tier artist)

A predominant idea of heroes and good guys is that they're often the minority. They're the one upstanding guy vs. a ton of bad hombres. It's why we like seeing heroes be successful; they're overcoming odds. With league, we don't really get that nor is it super apparent in lore situations. Take Camille for example; She's an incredibly skilled, powerful woman who shadowruns all of Piltover and Zaun...but then you realize the deck is stacked against her in terms of heroes. Sure, she might be outright more powerful than any ONE hero but this feels more like a dungeon boss than a threat.

One of the arguments people will likely bring up is "That's not good writing though". That villains have to have some redeeming qualities. While this is fair, the idea is that they're still bad guys with pretty heinous plans. Let's use Viktor for example. On paper, Viktor does some terrible things and fucks with peoples bodies to the point that they're more machine than human...yet he does so in the name of progress. Hell, his lore has him as more of a tragic figure than any villain. Any act of villainy in Viktor's lore is a case of debateable (but not outright bad) ethics or silly misunderstanding.

But perhaps the greatest flaw that we encounter is that nobody really wants their main to be the bad guy. Sure, some people do, but when it comes down to a neutral character? People often argue that they're not actually all that bad. Hell, how many of you looked at my villain list and went "Bullshit! <champion> isn't a villain!" or that I'm wrong in some regard? Sure, you'll find people who wholeheartedly embrace that their champion main is actually a dastardly, bastardly monster but most champions fall under a neutral or grey area that people will argue about.

A compelling villain is just as important in a story as a hero, even if the villain is sometimes a concept or a force of nature. But if there are no villains, the story starts to crumble.

#Part 3: Fixing this.

Pertaining to what I said above, Riot has actually taken some steps to make some characters more villainous. Demacia, for example (While I consider them good), holds some very backwards ideas about the world outside. Lux is emotionally broken because she realizes her magic is a sin in Demacia, rather than an amazing gift to be honed via talent. This can't always be successful though. Volibear's lore change to a demigod/god of storm and being treated as a battle-hungry monster is a divisive topic among friends of mine. I personally think it's awesome (THOUSAND SCAR BEAST YEAAAAAAAAAH) while others lament that Volibear lost his wise and sophisticated nature in favor of grumble reeee angry bear noises.

What I think might be a better solution is to power up the villains and depower our heroes. That's not to say that we can't have a heroic character who can go toe-to-toe with Aurelion Sol but maybe we need more evil characters. More void beings who are on-par with Sol and seen as gods. Maybe we need more villanous figures. Maybe some neutral heroes become less defendable. As an addition, it's also possible to write villainous characters as having masses. Swain, for example, could be seen as a wicked mastermind with an entire nation under his thrall. Sure, he himself is decently strong but the real threat is that Noxus is at his beck and call.

Buff villains and nerf heroes.

#Part 4: Conclusion.

League/Riot is aiming to create a dark fantasy world, from the feel of it. A world of moral greys and questionable politics on both sides. The quality is up for contest and I'm sure we have people feeling both positives and negatives about the new lore, but the goal is quite clear. Yet even in the darkest and most morally grey fantasy, there are certain villains. Villains who can't be redeemed. Villains who we know from day one need to be put out to pasture and removed if there's ever hope for unity and peace.

League needs more of that, in my opinion, otherwise we're going to hit a brick wall where we see the likes of Bard, Aurelion Sol, Ornn, Targon's Aspects, Anivia, Janna, Demacia, Piltover, some of Zaun, some of Bilgewater, some of Noxus and more all holding down Kog'maw's daddy and kicking the everloving shit out of him while Kog sobs in the background.

114 Comments

Beyond Legends8/23/2017, 4:31:34 AM20 votes

I think your confusing the term protagnist and antagonist with heros and villans. The current problem with league lore right is that their is alot of color story who potray as protagonist or main focus of the story.

Currently their really isn't alot of stories where champions are put into the main antaginost role, as bloodline is only so far where we have Xerath as a main antogonist of that story.

Hence I don't think there is neccasrry to buff anyone really. Katarina can easily be a protagagonist with Garen or Jarvan set up as an antagonist.

Wind2348/23/2017, 8:38:18 AM9 votes

(As a story nerd in general, I love talking about stuff like this. :3)

Disclaimer: I didn't read every single comment, so I might repeat something already said. If I do, I apologize ahead of time!

Firstly, I agree with a prior post that said that the terms "protagonist" and "antagonist" are likely the terms you're looking for here. Heroes and villains are typically the ones we use most, but the protagonist is always the characters who POV is being used. Something important to note is that EVERYONE is the protagonist of their own stories; they're not going to believe they're doing the wrong thing. In fact, a good villain needs to believe they're doing the RIGHT thing, or that they're at least justified in what they're doing.

There's actually quite a number of champions in the game who I would consider antagonistic, or even anti-heroic. Honestly, I'm a little surprised you consider Xayah and Rakan pure good guys - to me, they come across as anti-heroes, fighting for a cause they think is noble, though will likely result in the destruction of Ionia's human society. There's probably a few champions who are going to have a problem with that. What's important for a good story is the conflict that drives it. So long as there are two opposing forces who have conflicting goals or methods, then you have plenty of potential. Moral alignment actually doesn't matter much in some cases.

I notice how you say you want to "buff villains" and "nerf heroes," but I'd like to point to the story "Shadow and Fortune," where the Harrowing attacked Bilgewater after Miss Fortune deposed of Gangplank. There were two villains in that story - Hecarim and Thresh. And Thresh was a BAD motherfucker in that story. Lucian did NOT stand a chance against him, and he only lived because Senna saved him. Hecarim wasn't exactly pulling any punched, either, and it took Illaoi calling upon her god to get rid of him - not even kill him, just make him go away. In that story, we saw these two being as bad as we'd imagine they be, and defeating them was not treated as an easy task.

I think we need more stories like that in order to illustrate how powerful some champions are lore-wise. We haven't had a lot of interaction between opposing champions in lore like that before, so seeing more of it might help ease what you think the issue is. As for champions who are too dangerous to allow to exist...I think we already have quite a number of those. Just because a character is morally gray doesn't mean that they're forgivable. Understanding a motive isn't the same as letting them off the hook. To list some champs that I think would be too dangerous to live: Urgot, Singed, Xerath, Renekton, Gangplank, Elise, most of the Void monsters and undead champions just to name a few. Some of them are certainly sympathetic (I think Renekton is the most tragic one here), but that doesn't change that they are a threat, and I can easily see all of them meeting their end eventually.

So honestly, I don't think there's a problem with League having an "uneven" balance in terms of heroic or villainous characters. I think it's just that we haven't seen them in conflict with each other that much yet, so we have no clue how deeply these conflicts can run. My only potential problem is that I'm not sure how willing Riot would be to kill off a champion in the lore itself. That'd certainly add to the stories, but at the same time, no one would want to see their favorite champion be gone for good, at least story-wise.

Darrosh Jewfist8/23/2017, 4:38:45 AM4 votes

I don't know if the issue really is villain count. I think a bigger issue is (1) stakes and (2) relationships.

(1) Stakes - most of the League champions are neigh invulnerable or presented as, well, legendary. That's great and all but in every single color story I can remember, the champions are presented as indestructible tools of usually cocky destruction. Whether it's Quinn wiping out a Noxian raid party or Ornn slaughtering Ursine... there's no drama if these champions are literal gods.

I find the most interesting champions the ones closest to humans like Lux (who is a magic user in a magic-hating kingdom). The rest of the champions are just god-like uber beings or loners who do their own thing. Which leads to the next problem...

(2) Relationships - most of the champions don't care two shits about any other champion except for 1 or 2 of 'em. Ornn just hates Volibear. Rakan and Xayah have a thing for each other. Kayn has a thing for Zed. They're all basically in their own isolated bubble.

Like Veigar is fucking insane little wizard but what shits would he give about any specific Freljord/Shurima/Ionian/Bilgewater/Demacian/Noxian/Piltover/Zaunite champ?

WinTheWarOnPants8/23/2017, 9:34:28 PM3 votes

I don't want to straw man, but are you saying you want what exactly? Villians? like old time villains that are evil.... because... uh... EVIL!!!? There is good reason why they have fallen out of style and that's because they are just bad design. There are no villains in the real world. Only people. Everone does both good and bad things, but some do more bad than good and visa versa. Hitler is pretty well known as a genuine piece of shit, but even he wasn't an "evil villain" like WW2 propaganda and some people will tell you. He was a person just like you or me. I'm without a doubt sure that he thought he was the "good guy" because everyone does. No sits there in a ridiculously large chair petting some exotic animal thinking about "evil" things they can do. Saying that Hitler was simply "evil" is just ignorant. He did horrendous and evil things, but only because he justified it in his head in some way. If you ever had the chance to talk to him or read his mind, you would probably be able to relate and understand why he did what he did. When it comes to making good "villains" you have to make them relatable. I think when you say characters are "gray" you are confusing "reason" with "action". Hitler was not morally gray. He was about as bad as you can get. It doesn't matter if he thought that he was saving the world or some other seemingly righteous action. What he DID is what matters and what he DID was BAD. It's the same with Viktor or Velkoz just because they think the things they do are good doesn't matter one bit. If they do something bad(like murder or something), it's still bad. Also, trying to put characters in a box of (good)(bad) is horrible for a narrative. Just because someone is a good or bad person(generally) doesn't mean that they can't do something bad or good. Take Cassiopeia for example. She was a back stabbing bitch that did a horrible thing, but she didn't do it because she was "evil". She thought it was the right thing to do (in her head) for her country and loved ones. That's also why when she does a good thing by hunting down a murderer it doesn't contradict her character. Diana was by all means a good person and was without a doubt a victim, but she was abused and twisted into a "bad" person. An example of good villain design vs bad is "Sleeping beauty 1959" vs "Maleficent 2014" In the original animated movie Maleficent is an "Evil" witch(she even calls herself this). Even her name means "one who causes evil". She is the "evil witch", the "villian" who is evil because she IS. In the 2014 movie she driven to the edge by the pain and heartbreak after she was betrayed by the one she loved most. She did the same bad thing(cursing aurora) she did in the original movie, but Maleficent from the 2014 movie is a character that could actually exist(not including all the fairy/witch stuff) which makes her a FAR better character than the original "i'm evil just because" Maleficent.

TL;DR: I might be misunderstanding your point, but if think league needs Villians that have no motivation outside of being "evil" i couldn't possibly disagree more. Good characters are relatable. You might not agree with their values, but you should be able to understand why they hold their values. Or just watch this Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyDx5nG7koA

Brutusness8/23/2017, 4:55:55 AM3 votes

I think you may have forgotten Lissandra. She's basically the Night King, easily a candidate for the Big bad of League not just because she wants to bring the apocalypse but for the amount of lies and deceit she sowed.

MZ Steven YZ8/23/2017, 7:30:11 AM3 votes

But But where are all the void champion... Chogath Khazix Malzahar KogMaw RekSai Velkoz why they are not list in the bad guy list (not you Kassadin you belong in the museum good guy list)

Chromatic Eagle8/23/2017, 1:18:14 PM2 votes

Idk how you see Camille as evil. Even Sion. He may not be a nice guy, but we don't know enough about his former life. We also don't know Volibear's side of the story.

ModKnightsKemplar8/25/2017, 1:11:37 AM2 votes

League seems to be creating some groups of villains. It's kind of like Marvel's Avengers right now, in that way. In the first movie, we had the big bad Loki fighting all our favorite heroes; round 2 was with Ultron and minions, iirc.

So we have the Void (noticeably absent from your list).

We have Lissandra (also absent) who is set up as a major villain.

We have the Shadow Isles, which you did include many champs from.

With those, I don't feel like we're short on antagonists. I see it as more of a Marvel situation (many heroes, couple of supervillains) as opposed to a DC kind of thing (one hero, many villains). Not a perfect analogy, I know, but it's how I've seen them. Batman has his many foes, X-men have Apocalypse and Magneto. That's just how I think of it, of course, but imo both work.

Q Ren8/23/2017, 8:45:35 AM2 votes

Khazix Velkoz KogMaw Chogath RekSai Malzahar Nocturne Kassadin , I could probably find more but seriously the void is full of pure evil.

Kloqdq8/23/2017, 3:12:47 PM2 votes

I think one of the biggest issues with League and it's story is we cannot find a true progression to the events in Runeterra. Yes we can have characters develop and find their place but we cannot reach an end goal. That's the problem.

In league it is very clear that in a traditional story sense, everything is building to the Void conflict. The Void is without a doubt the greatest threat to all of Runeterra and every other conflict is just minor in comparison. However, we will never truly get a resolution to the Void conflict. This is because the champions needing to exist in lore for them to technically exist in the game. What we can assume is every champion in lore is currently alive - evident when GP was announced as dead in lore and was removed from the game for a bit. So if a champion deads or is dead in lore, they are technically dead in the game.

This possesses an issue as we cannot truly find a solution to many of the conflicts because to be in the game, champions need to be alive. We cannot kill the Void creatures or we would have to remove from the game. Now there is a solution from this problem. Lore and Game are just disconnected. This is very clearly indeed as Riot removed the old lore connection of Champions and Summoners. This all comes down to Lore cannot actually do anything with the characters. They all have a sense of plot armor that prevents them from ever being killed or facing a fate that removes them from the lore. They must always come back and their current status effects their in game existents.

It's also important to note we cannot please too ends of the story at the same time. We can't kill GP to satisfy MF without harming GP's narrative. If we really wanted to solve the problem.

We need a force that exists outside the game. The Ruined King is a good example. He isn't a champion but a force that exists outside the game. What he can do isn't bound by the champions. This is what is really important to understand is Champions can only be affected so much. Outside characters can live, dead, win, lose, be happy, be sad, and ADAPT to what the story needs. Champions cannot in the same way because of their existence within the game. Characters in lore however aren't chained.

What this all means basically is; let's make lore and characters that exist sololy away from the Champions and merely have them be minor characters that are involved. Like how Yasuo is just a mentor to Tayliah and isn't the focus. He is just there and if he wasn't a champion, we could affect him however we like and develop the Protagonist as we want. That is what League needs to really develop it's lore.

Seekêr1/31/2018, 2:04:10 PM1 votes

As video game lore more closely begins to resemble reality, villains will be replaced by antiheroes.

This is it makes the lore more meaningful and engaging, in reality there is no hero and villain, black and white, Good or bad. The world is a beautiful hue of grey.

Your nightmare could be my dream

Son of Ur8/23/2017, 7:25:14 AM1 votes

Well well well. The day has arrived when a an esteemed Warden would use homophobic slurs. "Neutral Nancies".

Nancy- an effeminate or homosexual man. I guess Ahri is a feminine man or homosexual man according to our esteemed warden.

I for one (and I am being serious) condemn anti-homosexual rhetoric. After all, this is a symptom of hate and ignorance.

Stars Shaper8/23/2017, 8:02:51 AM1 votes

Some short replies on the issues brought up:

I do think Camille should be switched with Pantheon. She does what is good for Piltover general health while Pantheon isn't seen as a good guy even when commanding Aurelion Sol to close the Void fissure (and that's the only "good" thing he did we know). It's probably my bias talking though.

I think the number isn't an issue as long as Neutral Nelsons can be found to party in equal numbers with the good and the bad guys. Having a high number of bad guys vs a small number fo good guys usually leads the bad ones teaming up against a single hero just to be screwed up because the hero is the hero, removing then a good bunch of power and credibility form the bad guys that end up in "Saturday morning villains".

Also, I think the issue with LoL is to give every villain a reedeming quality. It's like there is no real villain because every1 has his reasons to be as he is (see the Viktor case). I think that a really cool and well defined character is Mordekaiser, he is a pure villain, he was a conqueror who got the entirety of valoran, got killed in a rebellion and resuscitated as an even more evil guy that wants to get back his domain. This is what I call a villain, and I even play him a lot because of this reason even if I am good guy at the heart that always played the Paladin role.

ADepressedLeona8/23/2017, 3:56:57 AM1 votes

the Darkin are pretty bad dudes who probably need to be dealt with