As much as everyone hated it, the dissolving of the Institute of War was necessary, for a lot of reasons. The only problem now is all of the (earlier) champs whose lores revolve around the institute. Champs like Kayle, Morgana, Brand, Nocturne, Jax. There are other champs, some more connected some less, but the point still stands: when will these lores be updated?
Solideus3 votesMost of the core of those characters' stories will remain, the Institute just won't be part of it. Those imprisoned or otherwise bound by the League will be free though, like Brand and Cho'Gath.
The routine participation in matches that was canon will also be gone, which is the fact I appreciate the most. Each character's situation and motivation will be more unique. Circumstances that the league wouldn't have allowed or already stopped will now be possible. The conflict between Ionia and Noxus, for example, might still be ongoing now.
Sneak Dog2 votesMost of the core of those characters' stories will remain, the Institute just won't be part of it.
Tell that to Trundle and Xerath.
Solideus3 votesI'd still say the story after Trundle's reimagining has the same parts the old one did, although with different emphasis and delivery. That has been criticized by some, but many issues with the first iteration of the character *were *solved.
Xerath has slightly different emphasis too, but I disagree that he is so vastly different from what he was. His story isn't done either, new details about his origins might very well emerge in the future.
Sneak Dog4 votesIt's not the same Trundle though. The new Trundle is a sadistic power-hungry brute of a troll. The old Trundle was a sadistic cynical runt of a troll. I wouldn't've mind him getting a different story and look, but I do mind someone else taking his place in the game. Easiest way to see they're different characters is to just compare the full VOs. It's not just a different emphasis and delivery. It's a plain different character.
Xerath now is the politician ascendant. He is motivated by wanting freedom and he acquires it with cunning plots and politics. His main motivation and way of solving problems got changed. This is like Iron man now fighting for good because his parents died and he does so with his superior martial arts.
Solideus4 votesThe new Trundle was also physically inferior, he took over with wit and a newfound weapon. The old one was similarly "power-hungry", given that he gained his powers at his tribe's expense. It's still there, unless you want to interpret it otherwise.
I don't really see how he could be compared to a politician. Old Xerath was a very human and flawed person who became a monster, just like the new Xerath. The new Xerath was also a magus and used his knowledge to transcend, causing destruction in the process. You might prefer the "I wanna know stuff"-as both means *and *motivation. I prefer the new, more complex character. That's just a matter of preference, though.
Sneak Dog4 votesThe old one was not power-hungry, he was naïve. He also did not gain any powers, he took up a curse and is cursed to live in perpetual pain. * He leaves behind a trail of rotting flesh.* He did so to gain his tribes admiration. He didn't want power, he just wanted admiration. Then his tribe still shunned him. This is where he realises he shouldn't be trying to get his tribes admiration, where he turns cynical. The new one just gained the tribes admiration and went mad with power. This is not the same character as the old Trundle. The new Trundle just beats whatever problem he finds, if that doesn't work, he lies.
Now first listen to the voice-overs, figure out where the emphasis lies in each, how Trundle is depicted in each, then come back. I'll wait, I've waited for over a year anyway.
Old Xerath was a man consumed by his obsession over magic and he researched endlessly to discover its secrets. The new Xerath is a man consumed by his obsession over freedom and he plotted endlessly to gain it and revenge on the man who kept him as a slave. Are these the same men? They both are doomed by their own obsessions to destroy all they loved, so their stories are incredibely similar. They both endured the same fate.
I don't care which character you prefer. It's irrelevant. Hate old Trundle for all I care. The point here is that Riot removed a character and conveniently replaced it with a new one. The new one could be the best character ever created, I'd still be against it. The new character should've been a new champion had Riot really wanted it in their game.
I don't want to invest in a lore where my favorite characters can get bluntly retconned out on the writers whims.
Solideus2 votesI'd rather have each character be the best expression of that fantasy that can be delivered. Obviously overall quality should take precedence. Some changes won't be popular with everyone because everyone interpret characters differently. There's no use being bitter about it for years, though.
Sneak Dog2 votesI'd rather have each character be an interesting person, who you get to know in their background. Not just a single idea personified. I guess we differ in opinion.
Obviously quality should take precedence. But you can't say the new Trundle is of a higher quality than the old one. He may be written better, fit his role seamlessly, have a clearer personality. This doesn't mean the old Trundle couldn't have been written better, or that a curious fit would be less interesting, or that a more complex personality is worse.
I personally also like my favorite characters to still exist tomorrow.
Solideus1 votesI don't think the old Trundle or Xerath was any more interesting or complex than the new ones, both were pretty one-off before. Being more coherent with a theme and the setting doesn't mean less complex.
For many, me included, the new Trundle is just building on what the old Trundle was supposed to be, you just interpreted him otherwise. Characters can be perceived differently by people, valuing particular elements as more or less meaningful, but that often doesn't reflect the original intentions perfectly. The new Trundle builds on original intent. It just so happens he wasn't completely coherently constructed before, so some people attached themselves to different views on the character. I think part of the the writing clashed the most with his intended theme, although I don't know more than anyone else of the exact intentions.
To be fair Riot has said they want to keep different views in mind more, but at some point those that "own" the creation process will have to make calls of what delivers the intended result better. Brooding for ages over every decision one didn't like isn't really fair to the developers.
Sneak Dog1 votesDoesn't really matter who is more complex to this argument anyway. I'm arguing that the cores of these champions were changed, definitely Trundles core at least.
Am I supposed to guess the intent at every character and value them based on intention rather than execution?
I liked the character that there was. The new character is different. This isn't just a subjective thing of interpretation, they have different character traits. Now one of my favorite characters is gone, removed.
Perhaps old Trundle was supposed to be the troll the new one is, but he was not. I also doubt he was supposed to be. He very clearly had a tragic story that turned him into an... unpleasant person. He wasn't supposed to be a strong and charismatic brute, which the new one with his club and lies is.
I want to like Leagues lore, but I can't do so in the knowledge my favorite characters could literally be gone tomorrow. I don't want them to be replaced, I want to hear more about them. Given narratives current, well, activities, I think this is still entirely relevant. If every action narrative takes takes ages, then why should I stop a relevant argument before they're done? Why also shouldn't I tell you that you were blatantly wrong, character cores do get changed. Nothing is above the retcon and anything could be gone tomorrow.
Solideus1 votesSpecifics have changed, the core character is still there. New New Trundle was also driven from his people. He was introduced from his recent situation, his childhood could very likely be similarly "tragic", that story just hasn't been told yet. Etc, etc.
New Trundle was a physically inferior challenger to a weak leader, although he is athletic-looking next to a human. He was always a physical character, just goblin-ugly. Now he represents a physical troll-character visually. He is also much more part of the world and now you could imagine him being relevant to the overall story or lead his own stories; old Trundle was very one-off.
Biggest difference is the old one left his tribe to die, the new one came back to lead them. There was the rotting curse-motif, but that was a questionable theme for Trundle specifically, I think. It has more potential elsewhere.
I don't think the core of new Trundle is very different, he is just reiterated; you are clinging to very specific, subjective ideas about the character. The core remains, as I have said. Specifics will change in development.
I'd rather have things change and be good than everything staying the same just for the sake of it. Some will cling to the latter I suppose, but you should think about it twice before you do.
Sneak Dog1 votesHow is the core the same? How is a tragic cynical troll the same as a brutish power-hungry troll? Have you listened to their voice-overs, where the emphasis is put in both? How is this at the core the same character?
We don't have to go in-depth and analyze their backgrounds, we can just compare their voice-overs. The new Trundle is a dumb brute, he smashes problems and lies to problems he can't smash. "You can never bash something too many times." "The Freljord is mine!" "Troll with the biggest club gets to be king. That's the rule!" "But I... Troll king..." Most of his quotes are *entirely *unlike the old Trundle. Then listen to their voices too. The old one is in pain and sadistic. The new one is a power-hungry brute and sadistic. These are not the same characters. The new one didn't just come back to lead them, he came back because he wanted to be troll king, king!
Also, one difference is enough to make it an entirely different character. What if Riven never decided to condemn Noxus for their questionable allegiance to Zaun? She wouldn't really be Riven without exiling herself, would she? What if Draven wasn't narcissistic? Darius not fearless? Azir not naïve? These traits are all part of their cores. Trundles core got changed, he became power-hungry and lost his cynicism.
Don't you have a favorite character? Don't you care about what happens to it? What if it just got deleted from the game tomorrow? That's pretty much what happened to Trundle. I can't even buy any skins for him anymore because they have the new guys VO.
Solideus1 votesAlmost all the old story-elements play somepart in Trundles new character, in a new delivery. The Traditional VO doesn't really present a tragic and cynical character either. He isn't overtly bothered by the pain and isn't particularly gloomy nor cynical. They have very similar personalities from their way of talking. I think you're stuck with a very specific picture of Trundle and is rationalizing around that. Others won't find him as vastly different as you in your mind.
Traditional Trundle has the old VO though, so you can just use that.
Motajo3 votesdissolving of the Institute of War was necessary
u w0t m8?
Derako1 votesThe Institute was dissolved? I've been gone for awhile, when was this?
Rhai Frostfang1 votesI wanna say about a year now?
TerraRising4 votes