Kled and Riven

XIII Vanitas·Jul 31, 2016·11 votes·8,582 views

Why is Riven the only Noxian champion that Kled actually respects and recognizes as a fellow countrywoman?

For those who don't know, killing Riven triggers this quote: "Pure Noxian girl. Almost liked her... almost".

49 Comments

FloRaider42Jul 31, 201610 votes

Because Riven is all about strength of the individual and "might makes right", which are the traditional noxian values, whereas most other Noxians ignore those old values by using tricks, shemes or their birthright to obtain power.

XIII VanitasJul 31, 20166 votes

Darius is the embodyment of that concept, but he's mocked by Kled: "You look IONIAN to me".

RiotWAAARGHboboJul 31, 201613 votes

If Darius is such a paragon, why does he allow Swain to rule?

Also he's a fancy pants.

AdaloreJul 31, 201612 votes

I want to say mind control.

That or Swain provides dental to his employees.

Malicious MetalAug 1, 20162 votes

A true puppet master knows how to keep his pawns loyal.

JayHog1992Jul 31, 20165 votes

{quoted}

If Darius is such a paragon, why dies he allow Swain to rule?

Maybe because Swain isn't your old "Stay in the back lines and order people to kill people", I believe it was stated that Swain just walks into enemy lines in terms of strategy to wipe out his enemies, most likely using his ult if it shows any evidence.

So unlike most Noxian mages, he actually wants to FACE the enemy and not trick them or play with them. Leblanc

MelledoneusJul 31, 20166 votes

Actually, no. Swain is the tactician, he does play a more passive role in battles, especially with weapons like Sion fighting out there.

But if you were to somehow catch out Swain alone, then he can eat you alive instead.

NúllJul 31, 20166 votes

[deleted]

GreenLoreAug 1, 20162 votes

That fight was staged though. you can see Leblancs reflection in Swains armor,meaning that J4 was either under mind control or Leblanc disguised herself as him.

Swain even mentioned Leblancs "great charade" during the Sion promo

XIII VanitasJul 31, 20162 votes

My guess is that he realizes he's not able to run an entire country by himself. I think he sees himself only as a general, not as a political leader. Swain is also backed by the Black Rose, which holds a lot of power. If Darius challenged Swain's claim to the throne, he would probably cause a Noxian civil war, which would weaken the very nation he wants to protect and make stronger.

Warlord DienekesJul 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If Darius is such a paragon, why does he allow Swain to rule?

Also he's a fancy pants.

I'm more confused how Noxus got so big and powerful if there seems to be a large undercurrent of hatred for the general that seems to be intelligent.

What's next, would they have hated Alexander because he was clever enough to flank with his cavalry? Julius Caesar would be hated because he organized a successful retreat at Pharsalus?

The dislike of Swain just seems strange, unless he's doing a Fabian strategy thing, but it doesn't seem like he is. Since he is fighting multiple expansive campaigns.

So, do Noxians just like charging headfirst into battle like disorganized hollywood style barbarians? And if they do, how did they ever get an empire in the first place?

Please don't say it's from some magical shenanagans.

CrazFight Jul 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=EEvHQdg5,comment-id=0002000000000003,timestamp=2016-07-31T21:59:41.898+0000)

I'm more confused how Noxus got so big and powerful if there seems to be a large undercurrent of hatred for the general that seems to be intelligent.

What's next, would they have hated Alexander because he was clever enough to flank with his cavalry? Julius Caesar would be hated because he organized a successful retreat at Pharsalus?

The dislike of Swain just seems strange, unless he's doing a Trabian strategy thing, but it doesn't seem like he is. Since he is fighting multiple expansive campaigns.

So, do Noxians just like charging headfirst into battle like disorganized hollywood style barbarians? And if they do, how did they ever get an empire in the first place?

Please don't say it's from some magical shenanagans.

How did Hillary and Trump gain so much power if they were hugely disliked and (one more than the other) unintelligent. As Napoleon once said " In politics stupidity is not a handicap." I assume the same applies in the league of legends world.

Warlord DienekesJul 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

How did Hillary and Trump gain so much power if they were hugely disliked and (one more than the other) unintelligent. As Napoleon once said " In politics stupidity is not a handicap." I assume the same applies in the league of legends world.

Easy, political ties, some corruption, and taping into fearmongering with a healthy dose of demagoguery.

That is nothing next to a complete misunderstanding of how empires are formed and pre-industrial battles are fault.

Beyond LegendsJul 31, 20162 votes

It's not like the general population of Noxus hated Swain or anything. Just Kled and Kled alone. Most people who see him as something to be admire probably haven't actually met him and see how derange he is.

Warlord DienekesJul 31, 20164 votes

Except that go against what Jaredan said about the character, that he is still in a constant struggle for control and disrespected despite his obvious militaristic genius.

Or the other post about how Noxian military formations are apparently everyone grabbing whatever weapon they are comfortable with and moving out. The first is a bit confusing, Noxus values victory above all else, and here they have the a guy most like to give them victory. Sure, there's bound to be internal political tensions, but still.

But the second bit is downright nonsensical. There's a reason why lining people up with uniform or near uniform spears/pikes/lances/halberds together was the most successful form of combat from 1000 BC to 1700 AD. It's just the more I hear about how Noxus military operates the more it seems like it was written by people who don't know what they're talking about.

Beyond LegendsAug 1, 20162 votes

Yeah but the majority people don't really follow Grand General, they follow the their own respective captains or general. Swain is pretty popular among those who has fight under him, but that is relatively small compare to Darius or any other generals. Swain may have won over the title of the grand general but have yet the cemented himself in the heart of the nation. Most of the people high of the military hierachy are loyal more to Darius than him and the people on the bottom just follow whatever authority figure they have. People are largely ignorant of politic.

Also which post you are refering to about Noxus military? I'm confuse as what you are talking about there. I'm sure Noxus probably recruits people locally and give them little training before sending them of the battlefields which is the reason why Noxus military sometimes seem rather chaotic.

Also Noxus isn't about victory, but more about strength which is different. They don't like cheap tricks, they want to defeat everyone by simply brute force. Some one like Swain how use trickery doesn't sit well with the general public.

Warlord DienekesAug 1, 20165 votes

Sorry that bit about formations was a bleed over from Kled's announcement trailer. Where it was pointed out how seemingly random the Noxus equipment is. The explanation for this given by Jaredan was because Noxus just let their soldiers use what equipment they want.

But that's stupid. That is the exact opposite of what an effective army should do. Tricks win battles. Throwing wave after wave of your own men at the enemy without thought of tactical implication or making the formations effective is literally Zap Brannigan's method of warfare. There is no way doing that would create an empire like Noxus has. They should lose basically every engagement against an army with even a little discipline and coordination.

They essentially have what Hollywood thinks barbarians fought like (they didn't though, after the Alamanians barbarians did use formations. Very effectively even) and declared that by doing that they've carved out the Roman Empire for themselves. But that's dumb. Formations and organization helps win battles. Figuring out tricks and ways to outmaneuver your opponent wins battles. Riot is basically saying that Noxus read Sun Tzu decided to do the opposite of all his advise, but they're also now super successful. Just go with it.

But that's idiotic and doesn't make sense.

To do a history example (because I love them) Riot is basically saying that all Noxian generals before Swain fought like Xerxes ordering his men to fight head on (worse than Xerxes actually, since Xerxes used formations. Effective ones if they were fighting in open terrain). Somehow this won an empire. But Xerxes didn't win an empire, Cyrus did. And Cyrus was a tricky bastard who used every underhanded method he could think of to make sure he won his wars.

Beyond LegendsAug 1, 20161 votes

Could you link to that discussion because I'm confused as to where Jaredan stated that. I mean it would be stupid if you said was true but I have a feeling you might be interperting something wrong. I want to see the primary source before I make my judgement. Jaredan can quite vague, to the point it often cause confusion.

FiliusCanumSumAug 2, 20161 votes

Noxus isn't the typical "Brains=bad, Brawn=good" barbarian bad-guy faction. You bring up how they're supposedly against tricks and schemes and tactics even though Swain's existence contradicts that. Never mind the fact that he's a cripple. He's the smartest, most competent guy around and he gets results, so he's the boss.

Also: "Noxus isn't about victory"? What? Noxus is all about victory. In their culture, victory equates to strength. Their philosophy isn't "you're stronger, so you should win", it's more like "you won, therefore you're stronger". To better illustrate this, picture this: A big, buff guy gets into a fight with some short, scrawny guy with a knife, and the scrawny kills the big guy with said knife. If it happens anywhere else, scrawny guy's considered a cheater. This doesn't matter to Noxus. He came out of it alive, so he's strong. Doesn't matter how much more physically capable or smart the other guy was. He's dead, so he's weak.

Many of the big things done from Noxus' side was done with this philosophy in mind. Resurrecting Sion? Darius thinks it's dishonourable, but puts up with it 'cause he'll help them win. Fucking over Riven and her squad? They were on the losing side, so they weren't considered strong enough to be worth keeping around, and therefore didn't matter. Even if they all die, Noxus wins, so whatever.

Beyond LegendsAug 3, 20163 votes

No Noxus isn't about victory by any means, but by brute force. You can see this in their weapon desighn. It meant not only to cut but to crush their opponents as well. Their ideology is to beat any defense, scheme and opponent through pure brute force. Darius line of never retreat shows this.

There is a reason why its strength above all not victory above all. This way of brute forcing it's what most population idealize. Strength to a Noxian is to endurance, bloodshed, and pride. Of course this the ideal that drive the masses, but the higher up are a bit more pragamatic about the whole things. Cheap tricks and schemes are tolerable but not favoured or liked.

Also your example are quite terrible to prove your point. Sion was ressurected because boram thought he could revive the literal symbol of strength. Someone who brute force his way through the demacian army and choked the king to death. That endurance and bravery was what the Noxian idealized not the hulking rage monster that sion became. Also the whole Riven incident is much more complexed and has far more factor to dive into for now. All have to say is to remember that the Noxus send singed to deal with the problem, probably not expecting the consequences. The Zaunite mercenary shock alot of Noxian in their cruelty, this shows that the Noxian isn't just about victory. They have an Ideal to maintain.

CasterGilgameshAug 1, 20161 votes

i would like to say mind control but at the same time i think that he may not like some of swains methods (not be cause of something so out dated and lame as morals) because darius knows that swains power as both a Magus and knowledge about tactics is what is best for noxus as he wants noxus to rise above all else but he lost sight of true noxian strength Riven.Darius is a man who is not just pure muscle he understands Noxus needs wisdom and planing hence why he supports swain.

WestTigerAug 1, 20163 votes

No offense Waargh, but how much of the lore from the Journal of Justice and the League Judgements did you read?

Swain entered the military when he was a teenager and crippled, that's in his official backstory.

He rose in the ranks, his superiors even demoted themselves to serve in his unit because that's how good he was.

Before the League even formed, Swain was on the way to usurping Darkwill by legit popularity, before Darkwill got spooked and forced him into retirement. Only when the League got formed did they bring him back in.

Even if that's not canon anymore, Kled's comments ring hollow, because the rank he claims for himself depends on him submitting to a rank system in the first place i.e. the same way as Darius.

Darius also supports Swain because even though Darius is physically strong, he knew he wasn't made to rule or administrate. Swain was the one with the actual experience and cunning to do it, so Darius decided to support him against Darkwill's son for the claim.

Noxus was never about 'might makes right' in purely the physical sense. They have been shown to be pragmatic and appreciate intelligence when its needed. Heck, Swain arguably combines both brains and brawn, because his ability to transform helps him to stand on the frontlines. And considering how old he is and that he can't keep up the form, its' commendable he even still does that.

He even fought Jarvan IV in melee range and auto-attacked him in bird form for most of the time. Riot officially made a CGI trailer of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMQBxx28zo

Brawn Good Brain Bad is an outdated trope, and was never part of Noxus' maxim.

I don't get why you want to shoehorn Swain into the 'scheming weak old guy' role when we have literally years of evidence to the contrary. Swain tried the actual 'legal' avenues before Darkwill stopped him. He had to spend years to get to his current status through a disability and political maneuvering by Darkwill. He has been shown to actually be physically strong and can fight in close-range, both in lore and in-game.

I don't know why you're so against a character like Darius showing depth beyond 'I strong I rule'. That's Sion's thing, not Darius'. It's never been Darius' thing. He was all about serving strong leaders for the greater good of the nation.

Frankly, you sound like you're pushing for a dumber Noxus than the previous writer's or the character's themselves.

That's worrying to me going into Swain's remake/VGU. Frankly, I don't want a dumbed down Disney-lore of 'Noxus is the baddies and their peoples are essentially orc society'. Screw that noise.

Beyond LegendsAug 1, 20163 votes

Chill I think Waargh is trying to get into kled mindset about the situation.

Though I agree 100 percent about Swain though. I really hope they don't disney Noxus. The unholy trinity of Noxus of Swain Darius and Leblanc must be shown. They did so well the humanize gankplank, I really hope people are

FloRaider42Jul 31, 201615 votes

Kled is more disappointed by Darius than any other Noxian, since he does have the power to be his own master and carve his own path, but became the supporter for a sheming politician Swain (and doesn't take the throne himself) in his goal to unify Noxus (Note: Unifying and "might makes right" kinda doesn't mix).

RiotWAAARGHboboJul 31, 201615 votes

Yep. Also they're both fancy pants.

RalanrJul 31, 20163 votes

Then why does he mock Sion by calling him too stupid to live?

HellsTrueKingAug 1, 20164 votes

my guess would be to take it at face value, Sion is essentially a zombie and a complete shadow of his former self. He's now pretty much brainless and driven entirely by the desire for blood.

However, this does make me think as to why he doesn't show him a little more respect. I mean, when he was alive, Sion was the greatest warrior Noxus had known. After he died they even raised a rather huge memorial for him.

I would love more insight in to this interaction though.

RiotWAAARGHboboAug 1, 20165 votes

Kled's Vo is about zombie Sion. Not the man who once lead noxus.

HellsTrueKingAug 1, 20163 votes

That makes sense, Thank you.

(My first ever conversation with a Rioter...YAY)

RalanrAug 1, 20161 votes

Dang. I was hoping to get more insight to the man Sion was before he died.

LordGeovanniAug 3, 20161 votes

Thinking that Noxian revenants are little more than mindless tools of war is saddening

CasterGilgameshAug 1, 20166 votes

the only real fancy pants is i mean seriously look at those pants. http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Vladimir_0.jpg

XIII VanitasJul 31, 20161 votes

Ok, that explains it. I don't agree with him, but now I understand Kled's viewpoint.

INoble KnightIAug 1, 20162 votes

But the thing is Swain is a mastermind and the best person to lead Noxious. Darius is a general who needs to be on the front line not sitting on some throne and warming it with his ass. Plus Swain is not only powerful (magic wise) but he didn't rise through the ranks of the Noxian military and even have high ranking officers ask for demotions to serve with him on just sheer politispeak. Swain is a tough bird (ha) and everyone can see that.

FloRaider42Aug 1, 20161 votes

Nobody questions Swains skill as a ruler, but this isn't about who is the better ruler. It is about who embodies the Noxian spirit. We don't really know how old Kled is exactly, but it is save to assume that he (like Poppy) was present for a majority of Noxus history. Kled still values the old codes of honor, which probably come from the beginnings of Noxus. Riven represents the traditional values of Noxus, which Kled admires and that is the whole point of the post. It doesn't matter for Kled that Swain logically speaking is a good ruler, as he doesn't represent Kleds vision of Noxus.

AdaloreJul 31, 20163 votes

I would also add that she is independent at this point, while Kled doesn't care, that it came from retrospection the actual manifested form of their skillset and mindset is at least something Kled can half respect.

Friendly RamJul 31, 20163 votes

Followed her desires and believed in survival of the strongest? no showmanship no tricks just pure strength.

Nar7iaJul 31, 20163 votes

Cuz we all know riven is hot

FasmodeyAug 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Cuz we all know riven is hot

seems legit

JayHog1992Jul 31, 20162 votes

Maybe Kled liked Riven's way of fighting and he's mad that she left Noxus after the Ionia vs Noxus war.

Maybe the quote isn't towards killing her, it's towards what she did.

Only Play DariusAug 1, 20162 votes

I'm guessing it's because they both left Noxus for the same reasons: They believe in the value of strength but see their home country corrupted by pure evil and jingoism