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Whenever Swain gets his lore update, please have him take some notes from Thrawn

darkdill··19 votes·3,510 views
Mitth'raw'nuruodo

Swain will definitely need to pull out some serious "five steps ahead of you" chops if he really wants us to see him as the "Master Tactician". And in terms of military minds, I can think of few others who impress me as much as Grand Admiral Thrawn from Star Wars.

"To defeat an enemy, you must know them. Not simply their battle tactics, but their history, philosophy. . .art." https://youtu.be/6OGix6gtObE "I will start my operations here and pull the Rebels apart piece by piece. They'll be the architects of their own destruction."

IMO, Swain's gonna have a REALLY hard time matching up to Thrawn's reputation. And considering how awesome Thrawn has been so far in Star Wars Rebels, he's probably someone Riot should take notes from.

Why do I bring this up? Because I feel like Swain's revamped lore is doomed to disappoint us unless he can compete with the Grand Admiral in terms of genius. Riot's going to have their work cut out for them if they can't match that.

What say you, Riot?

28 Comments

RiotRiotJaredan12 votes

Swain's five steps ahead of you in a game he hasn't taught you to play yet.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

$10 says his strategy or master plan will revolve around a magic doodad or ceremony or secret magic society, instead of well researched tactics and military strategems.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Well he already learned the magical power to turn into a giant demon birb.

Why not go all the way? :D

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

Because tactics are more interesting, to me anyway. It was part of what made Thrawn such a compelling character. He went up against space wizards, a vastly more economically powerful government, with only his wits and 6 destroyers at his command. And he outsmarted the lot of them mostly using the same technology everyone else had access to, just in genius ways.

It also hearkens to when I was hoping, back I think over a year ago, when the rewrites were still fairly vague and there was a lot of talk about character themes and how muddled some of them were, that we'd divorce Swain into two characters. One can be that weird bird demon warlock. The other could be an actual tactician.

Didn't happen of course, but still, I crave someone in this game who behaves (and plays) like a commander. Of the 3 "commanders" we have, Swain's a weird bird mage. Azir's another weird bird mage. And Nasus is a weird dog mage. Other than Azir's ranged aoe spell happens to be shaped like a sand soldier none of them actually feel like commanders.

Hell, Swain's VO even makes fun of it. He throws out some military jargon then just says "Oh who am I kidding, I'm just going to turn into a bird and eat them all."

Though in lore, credit where credit is due. Miss Fortune, total tactician. Manipulating pawns, setting up distractions, and using big freaking bombs to get what she wanted. At least in the first story. Her plan to take on the Harrowing was far less impressive.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Yeah, I just like to poke your brain. I find it fascinating. I share many of your thoughts, and I read all the Thrawn books so I'd be cool to have a dedicated tactition like that in League.

I will only differ in Azir's case. He feels like an emperor to me. I love the feeling of imperial power I get from commanding my troops from afar.

He is not a military commander, but he is an emperor guarded by his soldiers.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Yeah, I don't see Azir as a military commander either, but last time I mentioned how we don't actually have a commander character, people kept bringing up Azir so I put him in the list.

I get where you're coming from that he is always protected by his soldiers, but, I really don't think mechanically it fits all that well. It's not bad, exactly, but I think that Riot can do better (hell they've shown they can).

The fantasy of being a commander, in my eyes, is getting the people around you to do what you want of them. They're not mages casting mighty spells, or the greatest soldier on the battlefield (except for Alexander the Great, whose life reads like the biggest Mary Sue character ever), they're job is to get all these prima donnas to work effectively as a unit.

Which is where I think Azir fails. What he does, is make spots that extend his auto-attack range. They could have looked like statues, or a magic obelisk for all the mechanical variety they have. Hell, since it's him auto-attacking, they could look like shadowy versions of himself.

Actually, yeah, that would probably work better. It would explain his magic leap to one of them as stepping into one of his shadow clones. And I just realized that Zed already does that. Whatever.

As far as getting the feel of having a command, I don't think it fits. When compared to how thematic they've made other abilities, like Yorick's Q. Great ability, actually resurrecting zombies to work as his zombies, it's perfect.

My point, Azir doesn't capture what a commander does. Mechanically speaking, the best characters that I saw with abilities that are commander-y are:

Braum's passive since it marks an enemy for the allies to focus on for a benefit. Definitely showcasing the commander's ability to coordinate his team.

Ivern's Q, giving his allies a new ability movement ability, in this case a gap closer seem pure commander to me. He wants you to attack there: go to this location team.

And not a particularly subtle ability but Vladimir's R, it's not the best, but it could be re-finagled to be exploiting weaknesses, to get your allies to fight more effectively against your enemies.

That sort of stuff is what I think would make a good commander character, his job is not to turn into a giant bird in the middle of the enemy team, or cast impressive spells, or turn into a big dog demon. His job is to aggressively make sure that his team is working together to destroy their collective enemies.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Ah, but don't forget that Azir is practically a demigod. What is a demigod emperor if he doesn't use his powers?

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

That's entirely fair, and I never want it to be said I think Azir is bad at playing like Azir. A nigh unstoppable demigod SHOULD be able to make his minions out of the sand itself.

It's just not what I would call a commander.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Fair enough, I personally think of him as above a commander.

But it's whatever, he's gonna get a minirework, so I'm excited to see where they go with him.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Yeah, that one has me curious too.

I remember awhile back that a Rioter said that when testing Caitlyn that they found that having a range around 800-900 broke the laning phase.

Which made Azir so weird, since his soldiers allowed him to frequently have an auto-attack range well beyond that. It's no surprise that he's a nightmare to balance, either being too oppressive or, the second he can no longer be the monstrous laner he is, is just too weak to be noticed.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Right, that's probably the main reason they are reworking him.

BTW, do you feel like you're an accurate gauge for a champ's "OOCness?"

What I mean is, do you feel like you can tell when a champ acts out of character easily?

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Hell no.

Quite frankly, for a few of the champions that are around I haven't even read their updated bios, if they don't interest me. And some of the ones I have I still have the old Bios lingering in my head coloring what I think they should or shouldn't be doing.

Then there's the whole situation that even with expanded bios some of their characters are fairly vague, and they could be justified to being able to do a few things in a given situation.

What I can say is, for a few champions I'm interested in, I have a firm grasp of what I think makes them tick. And I think I have a decent grasp of story pacing (though I'm sure some may disagree). So when a characters act dramatically different from how I understand them, with little time given for a change in their character, that's when I get disappointed.

Or in the case of someone like Diana, whose backstory and in game VO just don't match, at all. But I think anyone can pick up on that.

And I tend to try and look at situations logically, so when a character is supposed to be intelligent, I'm decent at pointing out when they're acting idiotic to make a story end in a specific way. Like the high mage who we've seen turn people into dust just not using their powers on heroes that should totally be turned to dust right about now.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Ah, that's fine. I was only asking in case I needed your help with something.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Well, if you ever feel the need to ask for my aid anyway, go ahead. I'll definitely give you my opinion if you ask, and you can determine whether or not you think my opinion is shit.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

lol deal.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

That is an incredibly awesome way to word that.

Stealing it now.

Zok721 votes

What's more impressive is he's five steps ahead of you in a game you haven't taught him to play yet. He's that good.

3TWarrior1 votes

Swain may be a master tactician, but he's always been an unknown. Those who meet him, only remember a brief encounter, those he meets...meet a swift end

personally, thrawn is a little unrealistic to me because no matter what he does, he wins, even if there is a minor loss for the empire.

darkdill1 votes

Thrawn's "I always win" thing isn't unrealistic. David Xanatos from Gargoyles was doing that sort of thing long before Thrawn was.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

Really? In the first 3 books Thrawn retreats twice at a mitigated loss for himself. Then losses rather spectacularly.

Then there's the several idiotic decisions that straight bite him in the ass to no benefit for himself: sending C'Boath with a small fleet that the dark Jedi completely corrupts, not killing Mara Jade which ultimately leads to Luke's victory. And of course his trust in the Noghri.

That was part of why I liked Thrawn myself. He was clearly a genius but you could track which mistakes he made and why he made them based on his personality and information at the time.

Maybe everything in the new Rebels series has him as an "all a part of my master plan!" Villain. But I've never watched that show, so I couldn't tell you.

3TWarrior1 votes

if he exists in the original series of movies/books, I didn't know it as I haven't read the books and he must have a very minor role in the movies if he's there, but other than that, yes, he's presented like a chess player where he knows the outcome of the game before it happens

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

That's a pity. For the record he is not in the movies.

After the original trilogy ended there was kind of a dearth of good Star Wars content. Literally the only things coming out were crap about the freaking Ewoks and a crappy story about side characters during the movie. And stories that made the remaining imperials look like cartoon characters. It was crap.

Then Timothy Zhan writes the "Heir to the Empire" which eventually became known as the Thrawn Trilogy, about what happens to the empire after Palpatine's death in a interesting way.

Honestly, those books were better than the original trilogy, and I will stand by that. It created a different threat than the more personal Vader and Palpatine by just making them deal with a competent military mind. He was highly skilled, had an air of genius about him, but did not fall into the trap that everything no matter how terrible was "All a part of the plan." He had a plan, we knew what that plan was from the very beginning: To destroy the New Republic and reunite the Empire.

Everything he did was trying to do that. And he took many great steps to get there, but when something happened that derailed his plans, they were actually derailed. He just had to think up a new plan, or deal with the problem then go back to his primary goal. For example, at one point he had Luke in his grasp, but ultimately Luke got away. This allowed the New Republic to see a part of Thrawn's plans, and ultimately let Luke deal with the insane jedi that Thrawn was trying to use for his own ends. It didn't somehow help him to lose Luke, and honestly, losing Luke was one of the dominoes that ultimately led to his defeat.

And the books were full that sort of thing. Great genius masterstrokes, but a little error here, a little error there. And at the end it all piles up in his defeat. Really, just a great read. And it brought about some of the best characters in Star Wars canon: Thrawn, Pellaeon, Mara Jade, even the Solo twins have their roots in this book. And he managed to make the OT heroes still capable and doing things for the plot without going wildly out of character; a lot of the later books had the OT heroes do stupid shit like going to the dark side for stupid reasons, briefly or having some relationship issue that makes everyone drop 50 IQ points, there's a lot of crap in the old Star Wars EU, but the Thrawn Trilogy was fantastic. My only regret is that the new Star Wars movies decided to rewrite the post RotJ stuff by basically retelling New Hope instead of just filming a variation of the Thrawn Trilogy.

Friendly Ram1 votes

love the idea but really wish you mentioned zahn's books rather than rebels.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

He's good in both. Read all the zahn books and Rebels, Thrawn stays pretty true to character.

Friendly Ram2 votes

sorry really nervous around the disney crap. i'll give it a try someday.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Gonna warn you, it starts slow.

darkdill1 votes

I haven't read those books, sadly. The first time I was introduced to Thrawn was through the game TIE Fighter.

6FlagsFunnelCake1 votes

Along with that, I would love to see an upgrade to Leblanc's lore, one which sees her more of an immortal witch that has many similarities to the evil queen of Snow White, such as their immortality and extremely young beautiful body despite being hundreds of years old.

With Swain, I want him to see LeBlanc as somewhat his adoptive mother in a sense, raised up by the Black Rose to rule over Noxus (similar to the idea of the Illuminati having very close relationships with powerful political figures, a theme which would fit the Black Rose perfectly).

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