Boards›Story, Art, & Sound

The real problem with the art team

Linna Excel·7/24/2015, 6:55:43 PM·52 votes·3,884 views

Here's the deal with riot's art team: they done very good work but they've also done really, really bad work. Frankly it seems completely random if any particular VU ends up in the good work or the bad work without much rhyme or reason. Take Fiora, she should have been an easy VU because aside from her centaur running pose, there wasn't much wrong with her. Fixing her didn't require a VU, it required on animator to work on one set of animations.

So what is riot doing wrong?

  1. They aren't learning from the past. Listen, when you are 50/50 with your updates, you need to be a little less committed to them as a whole.
  2. You guys are way too pig headed about your bad reworks. You need to be more flexible when it comes to admitting that you made a colossal error and how much bad Karma accumulates over time, particularly when it comes to appealing to the core fans and mains of a champion. No one is perfect and your art team has a history of not being perfect. Yes I know you put hard work into a VU, but when you screw up people give zero craps about your efforts. Why should we? I mean if I main champ X and you guys screw up the visuals so badly I don't want to play that champ any more, I don't care about what you guys poured your souls into because frankly you guys as a team were all idiots for pouring your souls into ugly.
  3. You guys do a terrible job of actively communicating with the fans and the mains of a champ you are going to rework. You don't keep us in the loop until it's too late to change anything. Reflecting on number two you all deserve to be kicked in the balls metaphorically when you screw up because if you kept fans in the loop, you'd probably catch mistakes earlier. If you all weren't so secretive in the art process and started taking active inputs and keeping the players informed of your progress, you'd prevent some of your crappy mistakes. If you guys were more open with us and cared about the fans' opinions, you'd get and listen to the feedback that would prevent your bad reworks.
  4. You guys need to keep the all of the fans of the champ happy. No more of this picking sides BS. Take eve. Some of her fans like her as the busty, blue, barely-dressed, BSDM chick. Some of her fans hate that. Don't pick between your fans, make them all happy. How is that possible?
  5. Traditional skins need to be mandatory from now on. If it's more than a little bit of a change, just do it. Also they should come with the champ for everyone who gets it. None of this lock them away in the vault so people can't buy them nonsense. Stop being cheap. If you did this with every rework, people would be less likely to take a dump on a VU that needs to be dumped on. You know why people take a dump on your bad reworks? Because frankly you all took a dump in the box on the champ first and called it a fancy guarantee upgrade. This also allows you to keep from picking sides. Take Eve or cait, as long as they get traditional skins that everyone can get, no one will care about the updates and maybe you guys will get lucky enough and people will like both.

At then end of the day, you guys in the VU department need to understand you are hurting your future sales. I mean I'm looking at some of the Fiora before and afters and I have to say, if I were a fiora main, I'd be kicking myself if I bought skins. Thanks to your VU, I have no inclination to ever buy a skin for her. Good job chumps. While I'm not a fiora main, or a karma main (the old karma was so much better aesthetically), or an insert snafu rework main, if something like that happened to Ahri, I'd be mortified to the point I'd probably never buy anything from the store again.

Let's be honest, why should I invest money for a skin, if all that money is going to be used for is RUINING THE CHAMP AND SKINS I LOVE?! I want to get scarlet hammer poppy. I love that skin and I like playing jungle poppy. However after seeing some of your bad reworks and seeing she's on the list to upgrade, I'm not going anywhere near her skin in the store. I'm not buying RP for something that is 50/50 going to look worse after you upgrade it. Why should I pay $25 for DJ sona only for her VU next year to completely ruin all sona skins including the expensive one?

Don't get me started about how terrified I am of the upcoming Cait and Eve reworks.

Long story short at this point the fans have no confidence in your art team in your art team's reworks. Your results are just so up and down. Sometimes we get real quality reworks. Sometimes we get hellen keller mistaking crayons for chopsticks and ruining the nice dining room table and dishes we all loved.

Take better preventative measures.

Get fan feedback during all phases of the process. Empower employees to say an ugly rework is an ugly rework before the fans see it. Use the PBE for actually getting feedback and if a VU sucks, pull it out of PBE and send it back for a rework. Why force a total failure onto the live servers? I mean if a reworks as planned is going to be a failure, why do you guys in the VU department want your names and reputations to be linked to a failure? Why do you all want to make your teammates and coworkers look bad? Since we the fans don't know who is responsible for any particular mess you all look terrible when a bad VU gets released to the public. Take some responsibility for your actions, that's what you all are getting paid for.

You know why you guys in the art team have a job? It's to make sure the game looks nice. No nice looking game, no one buys skins. How much of your revenue as a company comes from people falling in love with a champ and buying skins for it? How much of your revenue comes from people who buy multiple skins? I mean when the skins team releases a skin people love, do you want those people to be thinking about how the VU team might screw that skin/champion up in 3 months and the skin might not be worth it? Skins team workers, do you guys want people not to get skins because there's a 50/50 chance the VU team is going to screw up your hard work?

52 Comments

Ectasyy7/24/2015, 8:15:55 PM22 votes

Problem is they created a whole new female champ and said this is fiora. They did not do that to others. This is why its huge impact. I don't even play fiora and im disappointed. Then i think about all them people who invested for a skin (royal guard, nightraven) and getting at the time champs they saw and liked and payed for, then later on being transformed into something they don't like. They should get refund if that's the case. They want to drastically change a champion into this new stranger, then people should have a chance if they want the skins refunded. Be fair for all.

Gapybo7/24/2015, 7:09:48 PM17 votes

It's their horrible design direction led by feminists. If the champions main or secondary role isn't basically being a slut then she shouldn't look attractive. They don't really care about community backlash. In fact, I bet they expected it. They will just try to do as little changes as possible now and wait until people deal with this and just eat their shit. They did it in the past and it worked. The problem is they expect the players to adapt and cater them, sucking up their ideas indefinitely. That can only work for so long. Sooner or later the shit will hit the fan.

Scarborough Fair7/25/2015, 12:56:17 AM7 votes

Well Said. So sick of the "no traditional skins or refunds" policy bullshit. Maybe we wouldn't ask for traditional skins or refunds if you didn't do a shitty job reworking your champions.

NemeBro7/24/2015, 11:41:45 PM6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9YIUnehc,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-24T18:55:43.038+0000) 3. You guys do a terrible job of actively communicating with the fans and the mains of a champ you are going to rework. You don't keep us in the loop until it's too late to change anything. Reflecting on number two you all deserve to be kicked in the balls metaphorically when you screw up because if you kept fans in the loop, you'd probably catch mistakes earlier. If you all weren't so secretive in the art process and started taking active inputs and keeping the players informed of your progress, you'd prevent some of your crappy mistakes. If you guys were more open with us and cared about the fans' opinions, you'd get and listen to the feedback that would prevent your bad reworks.

I don't know if you are aware of this, but Meddler actually stated like a week or a little more ago that, concerning the Fiora VU, it would be a little bigger than Kassadin's but not as big as Miss Fortune's.

It's not just that they don't really communicate with the fans and the mains of a champ, it's that they lie to us when they do communicate.

Nybx4life7/25/2015, 1:59:29 AM6 votes

Dunno about you guys, but I'd prefer to also see old splash arts for champions. For example, I like Tristana's VU overall, but I prefer her earlier splash art (The one that kept her original look and armor), because her current look keeps me thinking "But didn't they make a skin of this already?" At least, so even if they don't decide to apply a Traditional skin, there's the old splash art to view.

CobaltWolf227/24/2015, 10:10:08 PM5 votes

here we go again with the complaints. First it was the narrative team and now again with the art team. Just give them time, we don't need 100 of the same threads. If there is a post at the top of the boards, let that one get the attention and voice concerns there, not make a whole other post to complain that will just disappear by the end of the day, flooded by the many other posts about the same thing again.

Doktor X7/25/2015, 7:04:20 AM5 votes

Agreed. Traditional skins would alleviate a lot of the issues the community has with new artwork.

As to the inconsistency with recent VU quality, I suspect that people in the art department are really hesitant to criticize a coworker's work, let alone recommend throwing it out. There needs to be a way for honest feedback to given without the artist taking it personally.

Criticism should be sought internally within Riot, but outside the art department. Conceivably, outside the art department, no one knows who drew what, and so, the "I don't want to hurt X's feelings" won't be as much as an issue.

Also, it would help if Riot was more willing to listen to community feedback while updates are on the PBE. A lot of the time, there's no change between PBE and live. (Yes, I know, Riot did change the bangs on Fiora, but only reluctantly. It shouldn't take an angry mob to make it happen.)

NorthernDruid7/26/2015, 3:05:50 AM3 votes

As a whole they also need to make sure they have a grip on who their characters are (not to mention what their story actually is) instead of going off of their own hunch and wishes.

Fiora isn't a teenager stumbling around and waving a random sword in your face. She's a precise and skilled duelist, this needs to be reflected in her splash.

They need to stop changing things for the sake of changing them, make updates updates and not from-scratch projects. And if something's functioning, leave it as such (at least when it comes to the art side).

And when they're making changes make sure they're good changes and not stupid ones like Kayle, Vayne, Lee Sin, Janna and Fiora's splash arts (probably a few others i forgot as well, but quite a few of the updated splashes have been really good (Shen!) or at least acceptable (Anivia, Ezreal)).

In their eagerness to upgrade everything to the latest and highest and modernest standards, they forget to pause and examine whether something is actually good in and of itself regardless of style.

The old splashes for Vayne and Kayle for instance, were really good works isolated from League. Same with Fiora, that's a really good image. But if they're not generically modern enough it has to go apparently.

I really wish they'd do more discussion around and tke more input during the process of, re-presenting a champion. Such as when there's a visual/lore(well, random AU story details) update, let us be in on it and tell you which details we feel detract from the character, what details we feel need to be emphasised more.

I'm sure I'm not the only one for whom it can be really small stuff, a recall animation, a pointlessly stupidly lifted leg, a bland hat and non-flaring coat, a couple of distasteful animations. Which really turn me off from liking the whole, because while everything else is great, those small details are otherwise what turns you from thinking something is good to considering it great, and when they're then changed to something you don't like, or even detest, then it goes from good to mediocre instead.

Not that I don't have big peeves either, like the general compositions for Vayne, Kayle and Lee Sin.

Some of League's old splashes are really, really iconic. And that style can be something which draws you in (I especially miss the old Ezreal splash, as well as Kayle's old one, the new ones don't do them justice in the same way).

Removing some of the points which draws people in isn't only likely to make them leave your game, it's likely (because the gameplay is addictive and only small parts are destroyed at a time, and most of it's still well-functioning) that they'll stay around and spread negativety about the subject.

Because we don't want the things that draw us into the game to go away, because then we're left with a shallow addictive experience we can't break loose from.

Whether it's character/art design, a particular set of VOs or a particular champion, or even the game's (now replaced with random stories) lore.

Changing these kinds of things, which presents the game and it's components to the player, breaks the experience much more than any alteration of the gameplay. After all, when you unlock a champion or a skin, you're supposed to have acess to them permanently right?

Tell that to the people who unlocked Trundle the Cursed Troll.

Tell that to the people who unlocked Gangplank for his visuals, or Fiora, or Karma, or anyone.

Now visual updates are good. Sometimes, for some reasons visual reworks might be needed. But when they are, make sure we're in on it all the way. Because it's our game much more than it is yours.

You only make it, we make it happen. We make the cosplays, and I don't want my hard work at making this costume invalidated by a (percievedly) corporate decision to redo Taric and give him a drastically different look.

If it ain't broke, don't try and fix it. Fiora wasn't broke, Gangplank wasn't broke, Vayne, Kayle, Lee Sin, Ezreal, Janna, their splashes were great, certainly not anything which needed exchanging for something entirely different.

And when something is broke, like Poppy or Yorick. Or Taric? Evelynn? Give the people you're fixing it for their good say and input on what it should be like.

'Cause if Evelynn is changed into something entirely different from before, if she's turned into something she wasn't close to before, and you shoved it to live after a mass of complaints on it...

Why should I keep playing her?

Why should I keep playing this game?

Because I'm addicted to the gameplay?

Is that a good reason to keep playing?

I love playing League, but I hate the entire thing, because the things I started playing for are the things that are being taken out.

Great gameplay, awful management.

Don't change stuff out for the sake of being modern. If you want to turn League into a completely different game, the go make a new game.

And let me have what I came for, what you offered me.

(Disclaimer: Written at ~5 AM, coherence not guaranteed, especially not towards the end)

Beerstein7/25/2015, 6:29:15 PM3 votes

The reason people are so vocal and aggressive isn't to show malicious intent towards the content artists, it's because the content artists showed that attitude towards the players first. OP is spot in in that Riot needs to stop hiding behind the curtain, and beyond that they need to not lash out at the players when the players don't like something (as they did with this update). It's very unprofessional and insulting.

The backlash was because of a horrible update, the level of aggression in the backlash is because the content team treated the players like absolute trash when they initially responded to the criticism.

I understand you want to defend your artists and don't want to make them feel bad but this is a customer service business and to irrationally side with your guy while aggressively lashing out at your customers is just wrong.

Solideus7/25/2015, 3:24:40 PM2 votes

I have liked all of the updates so far.

SaltyToplaneGoat7/25/2015, 5:14:21 AM2 votes

It's impossible to please everyone, therefore, why even bother? Hell, they pulled of the karma rework, sat through the following shitstorm and then barely gave a shit. That is how you do buisness.

No one cares what a few loudmouths on the boards say and even if they did nothing this wouldn't cause League to fall apart.

Welcome to to reality, boys. Sad, but true.

Vistha Kai7/25/2015, 6:19:18 PM2 votes

I totally agree about everything you said OP.

Especially with this "No traditional skins" crap, because "We change champion visuals for a reason hurr durr" crap.

If back in the day they wouldn't make Karma Traditional skin, I'd spam their support to refund her, since I hate absolutely everything about new voice and look.

Actually not even the voice because my localized version is dubbed by the same voice actress and she speak in the same manner. Sucks to live in NA, I guess.

Still they took Karma out of Karma and that's why I only ever play with the Traditional skin.

Motajo7/25/2015, 4:22:34 PM1 votes

You guys do a terrible job of actively communicating with the fans and the mains of a champ you are going to rework. You don't keep us in the loop until it's too late to change anything.

This seems to be a running theme for all of Riot, and has been for a long time. A shame it always takes massive backlash to get them to budge for anything.

BakedLotion7/25/2015, 4:00:05 PM1 votes

no the problem with the art team is that they don't revert stuff. Once they do something, they're keeping it even if theres heavy community backlash. They can edit it and shit, but they will NEVER revert it.

ex : ahri, fiora

AzureInTheDark7/26/2015, 1:57:16 PM1 votes

Saying Poppy would probably look worse after her rework.

Renekton HAHAHAHA.

Peridition7/26/2015, 2:52:27 PM1 votes

So what is riot doing wrong?

They aren't learning from the past. Listen, when you are 50/50 with your updates, you need to be a little less committed to them as a whole.

Where on earth are you getting 50/50 on VUs?

Aside from Karma and Trundle, most updates like Karthus, Trist, Maokai, Twitch, Singed, Sion, MF, etc have been overwhelmingly positive.

FuryofThornsRedo7/28/2015, 4:40:46 PM1 votes

Not even through the entire post and your number two point is reeking a High stench of Complaining! YUCK! Match; opinion point of mine to your opinion points.

  1. Learn from the past and are not. Could possibly be the technology of all the bugs being reported or with other technological reasons as to why the time frames might change. As to the level of commitment? Try not to get caught up in the visual of what we all claim to think we are witnessing with our eyes when releasing new updates are concerned.
  2. Human Beings, not perfect. Not wanting to play because of the lack of efficient graphics of visuals being more than screwed up per your inner mind thinking's and conclusions; Linna Excel. Ever think about how maybe the artists or Riot have made up a core of Champions ion the not so best level of awesome, so they have those Champions to help test and bring out newer Champions? The inner intricacies of How Riot League of Legends coordinates inside of their Headquarters is all of the employee information Riot employees are in tune with connected to their employment contracts.
  3. Marketing supply and demand, but complain of not being fully in tune in the communication loop. Inflicting Physical Sexual Harassment outward and onto Riot Employees.
  4. Champion artwork display, how does that happen? Please try to remember that the Riot League of Legends Champions are the (c) Copyright material artwork Gifted to us from the Artist to play Riot League of Legends as the privilege we are granted with when we agree to the Elua or Legal Disclaimer. The artist makes all the final decisions, and if you are upset, then you are allowed to be upset. Remember, the Artist owns the inner truth of the reasons why they create their artwork, and we are not the art models they are molding new Champions in reference to us gamer's. Why would they ever, based on the lack of manners in critiquing about artwork, but hey, those are your opinions you are allowed to market in the level of poor taste as you seem fit to market the capacity of the in poor taste human being some people could walk away from after reading your initial post.
  5. Truly too bad inside of this point, as to why you might not be fully observing the trade Riot League of Legends might be taking when they decide to display a rework at a lower level than the customers audience might have wanted rolled out at, but then are tweaking to the exact precisions as the feedback received from us stipulates. WOW! A Communication Flow Chart Process of quite possibly how Riot League of Legends tunes their customer gamer's audience into allowing us to give feedback, help Riot to tweak Champions in how we want them to be tweaked or close to those calibers of capacity of skills, a Not Perfect Process; But a process involving a level of Gratitude and Appreciation Gifted to us as a Privilege From Riot! Holy Cosmic! No, not too sure scientifically in how that would work in space! Funny, that last comment can go in more than one direction.

So, what is your point if stating one main point? Where are you going with this? Have not read past the 5 points, but I am thinking your main point was to unload a pile level of stress onto the one thing which you allow to have coping for you through some of the not best times in your life, so degrade and demean the brand name of yourself let alone the Brand name of Riot League of Legends all from your opinionated subjective opinions, with maybe a few ounces of fact. Whoa!

There is no long story Short, AND you Are Wrong! There was never a Survey conducted Ever from you, and I would not involve myself in ANY of your surveys, based upon you level of online video game boards community social etiquette, mannerisms, and professionalism. Also, Please Try To Never Speak For Me In Any Generalization You Could Create About The Riot League of Legends Customers Audience Community. {Meant to be a long running sentence. If trying to critique about my typing writer style, then please note, they might never be a time when I would explain how my sentences in long or in short are meant to be read. I have my reasons, and maybe you can work through what I already know Many people might not like! Fact! Not a toxic skill, but of another realm of skill reason why my typing's are sometimes in a long sentence, and longer than most should appear.}

Comment was reading nicely until you involved Hellen Keller. Really! The downgrade amplification and volume of your sound of the feedback you are allowed to think is constructive. Yikes! I would be cautionary towards you now, as you are close in tune with making subjective criticism in the realm of Disability Abuse, and in the Realm of Slander of a well known person connected to any of their family still alive Today! That is insulting and I stand with the scars I won and on the same side of those anywhere surviving with a Mental Illness. Now, in general, this is not the post to clarify any of my scars, so please try not to be curious and ask for clarification here, those answers will not be shared in this post.

Noted: Take Better Preventive Measures. Name of Yours is Noted Too! I am now cautious of you, and was going to state that I receive an allowance in sorts and was thinking of sharing some of my Riot with you so we would not have to listen to you complain. But, you have more than certainly driven you comment post to a place too far for me to take the time to stand alongside, as you have casted yourself further than I would consider traveling in a online video game friendship.

VU Process: so much for trying to share the excitement inside of the tweaking process from a poor PBE, rework, sending out of a new Champion. Riot is Riot and Riot is only in tune with knowing how Riot is Riot. Try not to confuse yourself with a high level of Artwork critique until you can display more professional appropriate manners.

There is more than one classified level of insult from your comment post. Keep trying to help learn for yourself, but try not to think a great job has been made with all of the pain I continue to read you are dumping onto those around you. Guaranteed, you might not be at a level of Feedback to own the ability in Giving yourself Honest Feedback, without any denial, holding out level of including certain intellectual thoughts, or critiquing full blown out level of Honesty. I have been trained inside of my degree in Speech Communications to own the skill of Feedback. Know when to and when not to call myself out. If I could call myself out here I would, but I am not holding back. I would classify as time and location not being appropriate to do so as could lead to distraction of attention from your initial post. Giving honest feedback about yourself includes the Entire Spectrum of the Words concluded and decided as strategically made known to qualify as including those thoughts versus not, and if empathy has been perceived or maybe not needed to. But, inside of my post of honest feedback, Empathy is visited whether I inform my audience or not. As with this sentence to explain thus as such, I am not only telling what is, but trying to include with empathy for some maybe not knowing the level of a level of inclusion inside of my decisions; and if not all people are capable of conducting themselves with empathy then maybe they should take a self-decided time out to learn what they can about empathy. Most of the time in my posts I visit my thoughts with empathy; considering not all people are on the same page as me when I am referencing and coordinating within the guidelines of my degree in Speech Communications.

Riot League of Legends And Riot League of Legends Artists Take Responsibility of the Actions to Defend Their Brand Name on a daily basis. Even inside of the not so favored sending out at a poor level Champion PBE or Patch, or VU; Whatever such as ever the lingo sings inside of our brains. Riot is only trying to share the tweaking of artwork visual effects or Champions with their customers. If the process is so un-favored than forgive them in trying to share as close as they can a level of their professional work time with you; also a measure of a flow chart process to help them learn and support more of the future decisions about their audience or customers.

We would have you to thank if Riot League of Legends decides to change their Tweaking of artwork or Champions process in trying to include their customers inside of the process decision making process all they can. Too many people would not be happy with you. Happy to know that? From your efforts alone in this post. Are you with any conscience of a maybe thinking spoke to strongly towards not being right 100% of the time inside of your initial post?

From: FuryofThornsRedo