...Would people have reacted differently to when they first saw it?
I heard a lot of negative stuff about the skin, but I don't know if it's because it was ugly, overpriced or both. But I can't help but feel that people would of sang a different tune if the skin was 975 from the beginning.
Riotmoonstones11 votesThis is an interesting questions to pose, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
As you've seen, PBE feedback is greatly appreciated and can change various aspects of content - colors, model changes, and in this case, pricing.
Zarkkast3 votesYes, definitely.
I think the skin was quite lacking to be 1350, specially when put side by side with the Caitlyn one.
If it had remained 1350 I would've hope for at least changes to her ultimate, which could've had so much going on for it.
Ghost Bride remains her best skin. <3
Starlighte7 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8zyjVMPh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-14T21:56:41.558+0000)
This is an interesting questions to pose, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
As you've seen, PBE feedback is greatly appreciated and can change various aspects of content - colors, model changes, and in this case, pricing.
Im not sure anyone can really take this statement seriously. I don't want to come across as a jerk but, Riot often cites "not rnough time" or changes to a skin being "outside the scope". It is incredibly rare that you listen to feedback that auggest additions to skins, and the only reason the changes to this skin were made was because it obviously wasn't worthy of being in the tier it was given. The PBE gave feedback about Sweetheart Annie's VFX and that was outright ignored.
It just feels like a question you are posing without any sincerity considering the PBE's track record for making changes or holding skins to make changes.
GwingMaster10 votesIm not sure anyone can really take this statement seriously. I don't want to come across as a jerk but, Riot often cites "not rnough time" or changes to a skin being "outside the scope". It is incredibly rare that you listen to feedback that auggest additions to skins, and the only reason the changes to this skin were made was because it obviously wasn't worthy of being in the tier it was given. The PBE gave feedback about Sweetheart Annie's VFX and that was outright ignored.
It just feels like a question you are posing without any sincerity considering the PBE's track record for making changes or holding skins to make changes.
To be fair to Katey and the skins team, a lot of the feedback they get isn't really actionable feedback. Let's take Marauder Ashe for example - this skin was always intended to be part of the 750 RP tier. As such, they specifically chose a thematic they felt did not require particle changes so as to better fit this skin into the scope for which it's intended. With that in mind, when a host of people come back and demand new particles, the skins team can't do much with that kind of feedback besides say "sorry, but that's not really the goal of this particular skin". The next response predictably comes as "well then make it a 975 RP skin". Again, this isn't helpful because they designed it specifically as a cheaper skin for players who want to spend less. Thus, we're left with a situation where it looks like Riot isn't listening, but it's largely because the feedback they're getting isn't constructive or aimed at producing the best possible skin within the scope of the project.
By contrast, the Lunar Wraith Morgana skin was universally panned as being overpriced. Riot took this info, re-evaluated the skin and the scope they intended for the project, and determined that it had not be allocated enough resources to be worthy of the 1350 RP (i'm assuming here). So they reduced it to better fit with player expectations. That is a pretty clear example of Riot taking actionable feedback and making a necessary change.__ They did a similar thing with Debonair Galio, where they took him back into the shop and gave him another couple of passes (personally I thought he needed more work, but the point still stands).
Places where Riot could be better would be in areas where certain more simple cosmetic changes could improve a skin without widening its scope. For example - a lot of people felt that PROJECT: Leona needed a little more color on her outfit. I saw a post on the boards about improving the colors on the new Frozen Shen model. Stuff like this are things that they could probably get a bit better about at least exploring.
Simply saying "this skins is a mess" doesn't really give them much to work with. Likewise, "re-do it completely" isn't feedback that is likely to improve the model much. The best way to get Riot to respond to criticism and feedback more is to give more specific feedback that falls within the stated scope goals for the skin.
Riotmoonstones6 votesHiya GwingMaster -
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this.
To be fair to Katey and the skins team, a lot of the feedback they get isn't really actionable feedback.
While not all feedback is actionable, like changing Marauder Ashe's particles, the feedback is used as a learning experience. For example, players really weren't a fan of Queen of Diamonds Syndra because her particles didn't change. We took that feedback and re-evaluated how we were doing 750s - which champions worked because of base particles, and which skins we should move to a 975 RP tier to give them particles to make a better skin overall. We also began doing Quality of Life (QoL) particle changes for some champions (Prehistoric Cho'Gath, Warden Nautilus), which kept the skin at 750 RP, but were minor changes we could accommodate to make the skin feel better.
By contrast, the Lunar Wraith Morgana skin was universally panned as being overpriced. Riot took this info, re-evaluated the skin and the scope they intended for the project, and determined that it had not be allocated enough resources to be worthy of the 1350 RP (i'm assuming here). So they reduced it to better fit with player expectations. That is a pretty clear example of Riot taking actionable feedback and making a necessary change.__ They did a similar thing with Debonair Galio, where they took him back into the shop and gave him another couple of passes (personally I thought he needed more work, but the point still stands).
I worked on both of these skins and would be happy to elaborate here.
Originally, we felt with all the particle work and sounds, she was a 1350 RP skin. However, several players noted that Ghost Bride Morgana had a bit more to her and was priced lower at 975 RP. I took that feedback to the team so we could discuss it and see what we wanted to do. As you saw, we lowered the price based on said feedback. That's why we always say prices are tentative! ^-^ This, like you said, was a good example of actionable feedback that we can use to better the content we're producing.
As for Debonair Galio, I'd brought a ton of feedback from both PBE and the live boards - General Discussion had some awesome feedback regarding it. We agreed that he wasn't something that we should ship and should take another look at and make some changes to. While we didn't change everything suggested, all of the changes made were from player feedback.
a lot of people felt that PROJECT: Leona needed a little more color on her outfit. I saw a post on the boards about improving the colors on the new Frozen Shen model. Stuff like this are things that they could probably get a bit better about at least exploring.
A lot of color suggestions have been explored internally, even before they hit PBE, and they just didn't work for a particular skin. While we may not make the changes, we do discuss the suggestions and ultimately do what we feel is the right call.
Simply saying "this skins is a mess" doesn't really give them much to work with. Likewise, "re-do it completely" isn't feedback that is likely to improve the model much. The best way to get Riot to respond to criticism and feedback more is to give more specific feedback that falls within the stated scope goals for the skin.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Tell us what you like so we can do more of it! Tell us what you don't like and why. We're always looking for constructive feedback. Like I said, even if the content isn't changed based on your feedback, the criticism can be used for future skins content.
PapaGreg212 votesThis may sound crazy, but is there any thought and consideration being given to the splash art of a skin affecting the price? Some of the shared splash arts look a grade below the splash of a champion that is featured solo when it comes to their loading screen portrayal, especially if that champion is in the background of the shared art.
Riotmoonstones3 votesWe do want the splash to represent the skin. While the art may not be a 1:1 (splash and in-game are two completely different mediums), we want the splash to show off what the skin is and what you're getting. That said, we focus the price based on the in-game content and what you're getting in the skin, be it new particles, new sounds, etc.
If the thematic is shared, we feel that shared splashes in some cases are stronger, which is why they're done that way.
I understand where you're coming from in terms of some champions being in the background, and that's something we've actively been trying to avoid to make sure each champion gets their time to shine. A good example of this would be the Snow Day splash art - each champion has their own spot and isn't being overshadowed by another.
Vier3 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8zyjVMPh,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-19T18:47:19.707+0000) Originally, we felt with all the particle work and sounds, she was a 1350 RP skin. However, several players noted that Ghost Bride Morgana had a bit more to her and was priced lower at 975 RP. I took that feedback to the team so we could discuss it and see what we wanted to do. As you saw, we lowered the price based on said feedback. That's why we always say prices are tentative! ^-^ This, like you said, was a good example of actionable feedback that we can use to better the content we're producing.
So just like Head Hunter Caitlyn is higher quality than Lunar Wraith, yet it is priced less? It has a fully animated visor, a unique ultimate particle and not just a recolor, also her traps look like they took a lot more work to make compared to these traps on LWC. Lunar Wraith Caitlyn has no animated hair, yet the pin on her hair is animated which gives me the feeling you guys had to cut half way through her production (why would you animate her pin thingy but not her hair?) No unique voice filter (you saw how cool she feels in her recall with a changed voice) and the potential of a great snake cog for her ultimate (bullet looks really nice tho).
I'm just bummed as Cait is my favourite champ and I feel like if her textures were as bad as Morg and people complained, she too would of gotten better particles and a texture to match her loading splash as well as a price reduction. Kind of embarrassing comparing Radiant Wukong to Lunar Wraith Caitlyn. Oh she also shares her splash art with Morg!!
Sorry if I sound rude, but Caitlyn is my most played champion, I really wanted a dark skin for her and I loved the idea of this theme. But it just feels like she got near no love compared to Morg and Wukong and by the time Caitlyn gets another skin is going to be a long time. Not to mention a dark theme, one that gives a different feel to her.
Also the fact that you guys changed the ways sale works makes all of this worse. I wouldn't of cared if she got released last year as she would have been discounted to 975 for a day or two, I would wait for a 50% discount but I guess since she is a Legacy skin I'll have to purchase her in a bundle? No thanks.
Riotmoonstones6 votesStarlighte.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
You're correct in that some changes aren't made due to scope, and that's something that's been openly said. For example, players suggested making Star Guardian Lux into a legendary skin - it wasn't something we accommodated. (Since legendary skins have new VO, that's not something we can just add like we could a new particle or sound.)
The PBE gave feedback about Sweetheart Annie's VFX and that was outright ignored.
This feedback wasn't ignored, as we explained we felt the base particles didn't clash with the skin. That said, we took this as a learning experience and re-evaluated the champions we selected in terms of 750 RP skins that wouldn't receive new particles. We also decided upon Quality of Life particles in some situations - Warden Nautilus' shield, for example, where we could keep the skin at a 750 RP price, but also match the models a bit better. Wild Card Shaco was another good example of this, as we changed his Shivs, Hallucinate model and Jack in the Box, as they were all models.
It just feels like a question you are posing without any sincerity considering the PBE's track record for making changes or holding skins to make changes.
While I can't speak for all teams, I can speak on behalf of skins.
We grab all the feedback from PBE, live boards, Reddit, etc. and compile it into an email that's sent to the team working on that particular skin. We then meet up and discuss what changes we can make that would improve the skin overall.
I can grab you some examples of changes made based on player feedback -
Again, we can't make all changes, and at the end of the day, we want to make awesome skins, which is why we value both positive and negative feedback each time we release a new skin.
Jakra3 votesIn my opinion, there needs to be more rigid rules when it comes to the skins tiers. Particularly between 975 skins and 1350 skins, since it's only the older 1820 skins that have the value problems and ultimate skins don't really have a problem, except for the Ezreal skin that looks rather dated. The skins that are 750 and below are only model modification worthy skins, anything above that is just extra value for money.
But getting on topic, 975 skins should have recoloured VFX as a bare minimum across their abilities. Morgana's abilities were all recolours apart from her Q, which isn't worthy of a 1350 price mark. Since 1350 skins need to have more than just recolours across all their abilities. Not only that, her only new animation was her recall and she had no modifications to her voice. Overall, it felt like a 975 skin with a fancier Q.
Overall, I think in the future, the line between 975 skins and 1350 skins should have a much more distinct difference. So based on that, the new Morgana skin was naturally going to repel people away from it's price.
But what I would personally like to see more of, are more updated splash arts across some of the older skins, since they're not necessarily "bad", the splash art just doesn't represent it well enough. Lollipoppy for me is a classic example of this, because if the splash art for that wasn't touched, nobody would of even picked up the skin upon her updated release. It's like a fashion magazine in a way: Nobody is going to be interested in an outfit that's poorly put together or presented in a bad way. Just like how a skin isn't going to be bought if it isn't put together properly or if it's presented in a bad way.
I understand that this is probably in the works already. But I would much rather see an array of updated splash arts with one new skin, than an array of different skins that I might cause the same problem which Morgana had/has. I think if it's done like this, then skins in future production will have a much clearer way of understanding the price brackets, whilst also being fair. Presenting the skins that might have been forgotten for a while might do better when their splash art is updated, because I know for certain that people are put off from purchasing something if it's not presented right.
Riotmoonstones3 votesHey Jakra,
We purposefully don't have a list of rules for tiers because each champion needs to be taken as a case by case basis.
For example, I'd mentioned in other posts in this thread that we have what we call Quality of Life particles changes (QoL), and that's something we'll change but still keep a skin a 750 RP - Wild Card Shaco, Warden Nautilus to name a few.
In other cases, a skin does need new particles, and that's where we'd move into a 975 RP territory. Again, based on a case by case basis and the thematic we're looking to achieve.
We haven't stopped updating skins, and moving forward, the goal is to have updated splashes for Champion Updates, as you've mentioned with Poppy, and I believe the Shen skins are receiving the same (except TPA since it's a shared splash and not super outdated). That said, we're not done updating splashes in general!
Jakra3 votesAh, I didn't consider the "case by case" method. Now that you explain it, that makes a lot more sense.
Incidentally, what would happen with champions that have already received an update within the past year or so, but still have dated splash arts? For example, champions like Tristana and Miss Fortune received an update without these splash updates, skins like Cowgirl Miss Fortune and Firefighter Tristana have the dated appearance on their splash art, which doesn't translate into their high quality model in game.
Would I be answering my own question in saying that other champions have a higher priority right now?
Riotmoonstones2 votesThey're not out of the running for updated splash art in the future.
Some splashes are better than others, especially comparing new splash to older stuff, but there's a lot of discussion made as to which splashes we'd like to update and when.
MudintheWater3 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8zyjVMPh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-14T21:56:41.558+0000)
This is an interesting questions to pose, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
As you've seen, PBE feedback is greatly appreciated and can change various aspects of content - colors, model changes, and in this case, pricing.
I suspect a lot of that feedback was motivated by malevolence - people upset that Morgana was getting a pretty new skin when their fave hasn't in X days. Basically I don't like your champion so I'm not going to like her skins kind of thing. (I saw plenty of "why is Morgana getting another skin" threads going around)
I'm one of the most dedicated Morg players around and I always thought the skin looked nice and the criticism was harsh for the supposed faults. I plan on mostly playing it next season.
Riotmoonstones1 votesHoly mastery. O__O
Yeah, there are always people who are upset that x champion is getting a skin and not their main. It's understandable, and it's always something to take with a grain of salt.
Cosnirak5 votesAs a Morgana main with over 200k mastery on her and over 310 ranked games in season 5 I think the skin is awful, as I've said elsewhere. :p Some may be salty over her getting another skin, but for me it's just the details of the skin.
Riotmoonstones2 votesAnd that's absolutely fair - there are some skins that I think are awesome, and others that I'm not interested in in the least. I think it's a matter of personal preference in a lot of cases.
Cosnirak1 votesI agree with the principle of what you said but I think in this case it's more than that. This skin clearly has some thematic issues and uses some colors that more people dislike than most colors.
For me personally I'm just really sad because it means there probably isn't going to be another Morgana skin for a while and I was really feeling the sense Morgana would get a skin around now and started getting excited when I heard she was getting one then... lots of disappointment.
Riotmoonstones2 votesI agree with the principle of what you said but I think in this case it's more than that. This skin clearly has some thematic issues and uses some colors that more people dislike than most colors.
I'm curious where you've grabbed this consensus.
I grab feedback from several platforms each patch, including live and PBE boards, Twitter, Surrender@20. While I did find some points to be aligned, I did find that a fair chunk of people did like the skin. That said, we also consider that there is what's call the loud minority - it's found that people who like something don't speak up about it nearly as much as those who don't.
For us, that doesn't invalidate those who dislike the skin, and in fact, those are the people we actively look to for constructive feedback on how we can improve the skin.
As for the thematic, we were going on the thematic of darkness vs. light, which is why we selected Morgana. We felt she was a prime representation of darkness. AS for Caitlyn, we wanted to give her a darker alternative fantasy because we didn't feel it was something her other skins offered in her current skins catalog.
Cosnirak1 votesI wouldn't call it a consensus obviously but I saw more negative feedback about this skin than any other I've ever seen (though to be fair I don't go reading comments about that many skins). I apologize if I seemed to be saying the majority dislike this skin.
As to what's wrong with it to me it's mostly just obvious stuff. People weren't even sure what animal her shoulder things are because they lack detail that can be easily discerned without zooming in. Same goes for her Q to an extent, it's a bit stylistic and thus not obvious. Nothing about her outfit says 'wolf,' 'lunar revel,' or even 'dark' to me. Nothing about any of the other lunar revel skins makes Morgana's make any sense to me. I had no idea about the 'light vs dark' theme until reading your comment just now. This Morgana skin is the 2nd least dark skin she'll have when it comes out (exiled being the least) in my opinion. Morgana herself is dark but this skin seems to take all of that darkness away and replace it with animals and poor style choices. My very first thought upon seeing this Morgana skin was "wtf is with these awful colors?!" And I was certainly not alone in that feeling. They just seem chosen at random and remind me of puke.
There are a LOT of skins in League that I don't like personally. But I always see the value of them, I see why others like them. I cannot remotely begin to understand why anyone likes this skin beyond the look of the Q. I watched the video for this skin several times in an attempt to like this skin because I really WANT to like this skin. I want a new Morgana skin badly. If I could buy the Victorious Morgana skin for all 3841 RP I have I would because I think that skin is amazing and by far her best skin, but obviously I can't.
I'm pretty sure it's WAY too late for there to be any changes to this skin that would get me to like it. But I really appreciate you talking to me about it Katey and taking it into consideration on future stuff. Also I want you to know I haven't lost any faith in the Riot skins team. I think you guys and gals do some pretty awesome work! :D
Riotmoonstones2 votesWe definitely agreed with the feedback that the initial dress color wasn't super appealing and didn't match too well with the particles in her kit. I'm sorry to hear you're not a fan of the final product.
I get where you're coming from. There are certainly skins that I don't like for various reasons and never play. For example, I don't like playing Forsaken Jayce. I know a ton of people love that skin, but I'm personally not a fan.
Yeah, unfortunately it's a bit too late to make changes, however, I do want to thank you and everyone else who leaves feedback 'cause we do our best to make changes and make cool content. Of course, we can't accommodate all changes, but it's awesome when players bring up cool things like adding a jade dragon tattoo to Firecracker Jinx and we can totally do it!
It's cool to hear you haven't lost faith. I'm always down to talk about the choices we're making and why, even if it isn't exactly the answer you're looking for.
beany1 votesEh, funny you should mention forsaken Jayce, since his other skins still have that weapon frozen issue that is a large part of why I tend to favor forsaken jayce even though i have all his skins.
DemiMax2 votesTo define a price you have to compare it to the other skins that currently have the same price tag, in this case it was 1350 RP, ( it sounds simple and it really is) skins such as the recent amazing Elderwood Hecarim skin, Star Guardian Lux, Gravelord Azir or Risen Fiddlesticks. Now, is Lunar Wraith Morgana on par with those skins can this skin kinda stand its ground compared to those? The answer is: defenetly not. Can she stand as a 975 RP skin? I can see that happening but personaly, hardly. Ghost Bride knocks Lunar Wraith out of the park and keep in mind that Ghost Bride costs 975 RP, and that you guys were gonna price Lunar Wraith at 1350, when its easy too see the diferences in the skins, such as theme, model, effects changes, colors... The colors of Lunar aren't apealing and she needs more shine and polish, i don't know if you got what i meant by that but still. Adding a litle more effects. In my opinion, if there was a price tag between 750 and 975 RP, Lunar Wraith Morgana would fit in that category perfectly, there are some 750 skins that I consier better such as Sea Hunter Aatrox, Cutthroat Graves and Academy Ekko. They may have taken less work to produce but the final product is better than the current Lunar Wraith Morgana. Again this is my opinion.
Riotmoonstones3 votesHey Feerix -
Thanks for leaving feedback!
We made the comparison in house of Ghost Bride Morgana and Lunar Wraith Morgana, based on player feedback, and we agreed that Ghost Bride Morgana had a bit more to her in terms of particles and sounds. Since she was priced at 975 RP and had a bit more to her, we decided that lowering the Lunar Wraith Morgana price was the right call. Again, this is why player feedback is super important. We may put a ton of work into a skin, but player perception may be completely different!
Vier2 votesThe same argument can be made that Headhunter Caitlyn has a bit more in particle, sounds and animations. Yet it is cheaper than Lunar Wraith Caitlyn?
Ultîma1 votesHey Riot KateyKhaos, there are a few Shen threads on the Story, Art & Sound boards regarding his upcoming rework (for his Bloodmoon and Warlord skins repectively) and there are no signs of Riot activity on either threads in spite of how reasonable the requests are. They were also on the front page of the forum for a few days.
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/nTHlpgc7-warlord-shen-golden-spirit-sword
Riotmoonstones2 votesHeyo!
This actually isn't something myself or my team works on (I'm on skins, but Champion Update handles this one). I've gone ahead and passed it on to their team to take a look at!
BastionKross1 votesPersonally, I think it partially has to do with Morgana herself being ugly.
Tread carefully, fool.
I mean her ingame model is ugly. Look at the victorious skin for her, those particles are wonderful. But the skin itself looks worse because they have to apply it to the outdated rig of Morgana; whose dress looks like a tent. So I reason that skins that don't have new animations won't look as good on her as newer champs.
I mean, look at Udyr. The SG skin looks fantastic because it transforms this brown lump with basic animations into a visually exciting and eye pleasing champion. If Udyr had at least some of those animations to begin with, the SG skin probably wouldn't have seemed like as good an investment.
Colgate Gator2 votesIt's...1350?
No matter, regardless of the price point, the skin looks...Eh, it looks like a messy mesh of colors, you're better of buying Ghost bride Morgana or something like that. That skin has a clear idea of what it wants to be and what colors to use, and has pretty effects to boot.
Riotmoonstones2 votesIt was originally priced at 1350 RP, but was changed to 975 RP based on player feedback in comparison to Ghost Bride Morgana.
Cenobite Azaziel3 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8zyjVMPh,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-01-19T18:48:03.898+0000)
It was originally priced at 1350 RP, but was changed to 975 RP based on player feedback in comparison to Ghost Bride Morgana.
Any reason why pink taric still is 750 rp instead being a chroma? Same applies to dr mulko.
Riotmoonstones1 votesI don't handle pricing of skins, just the development, so I don't have an answer for that one. :c
Cenobite Azaziel1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8zyjVMPh,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-21T20:39:48.586+0000)
I don't handle pricing of skins, just the development, so I don't have an answer for that one. :c
Thanks for your answer. Anything in plans for yorick? Only after his rework?
Riotmoonstones1 votesHe needs a rework before we look at giving him another skin.
AtaxiChaos1 votesFor certain champions with rather low skin counts (Yorick specifically, and possibly Taric), would it be reasonable to expect a skin to come alongside their reworks?
Riotmoonstones1 votesIt's very difficult to run a skin alongside a champion when they're being reworked because Skins Team needs to create a skin based on the rework. If the rework isn't complete, it's hard to do work on the skins side.
The option would then become, push the release of the update until a skin is done for it, or release a new skin shortly afterwards.
That said, we've released a champion update and a skin close together before - Fiora update and PROJECT: Fiora.
LaoBushido1 votesThat being said has the announcement and the delvopmnet in the mid year Mage rework affected any skins that have been planed or are in production?
Riotmoonstones2 votesNope! We work closely with the Champion Update team to ensure we're not stepping on toes.
Ràinbow2 votesJust a quick question, Katey! ^_^
What's the likelihood of skins, that are already pushed to live, receiving changes? owo
Riotmoonstones2 votesIt isn't too common. It's generally done if it's a project Champion Update takes on. Examples of that would include the mass texture rebalances that were done last year, or something similar to Shen's update, where both gameplay and visuals were updated.
That said, changing content a player has already purchased is tricky because they've bought something they enjoy, and changing it could change how they feel about it, which isn't fair to them.
Nagoh Shan3 votesConsidering this, and how true it is. I have to ask.
Why is the decision to make a traditional skin done so arbitrarily? My absolute biggest issue with Champion updates, full relaunches specifically, is that right now is that there is almost no protection for the player when the new skin and theme dramatically changes from the original.
Sion and Fiora being good examples. I'd be so much less salty about how bad Nightraven Fiora is now, if I at least had a traditional Skin that made Fiora look like she was still from Demacia.
Riotmoonstones1 votesI don't personally work on these projects, but Ququroon does, and he gave a pretty solid explanation as to why we no longer make traditional skins.
Nagoh Shan3 votesI remember that explanation, and honestly it didn't really fly then, because showing respect for the character doesn't work when they miss the mark on what the character is (Fiora), or completely change the character from the what it was meaning they're only showing respect for what the character became (Sion).
And when they make a Traditional skin, after saying no more traditional skins, it becomes even more frustrating.
I guess Gangplank ate an orange and the traditional skin was k.
And reading this back, it reads back as hostile, and that's not what I wanted to put on you, but its so frustrating to see people say all the right things, like you did, but have all the wrong things happen and watch that team apologize over and over for the same things that they refuse to stop doing.
Riotmoonstones2 votesNo, no, you're not hostile. Trust me, I've seen hostile. :P
It's passion, and that's awesome. I appreciate you taking the time to say how you feel, and say why the lack of traditional skins isn't cool in your book.
I'd be happy to pass this along to Champion Update. ^-^
Nagoh Shan2 votesI'd appreciate it, never hurts, but part of the frustration is that I've not been shy, and I've definitely made almost to the letter the exact same feedback, as have others.
But if the champs playerbase is small enough they just get ignored (Sion)
If the champs playerbase is large enough, the backlash makes them at least acknowledge it, but things don't get fixed.
Pure exasperation here: Is there any way I can actually influence you guys?
What I'm doing feels like ramming my head against a wall, or in many cases it's like talking to a recorded message. It's just not working, and positive change isn't being affected.
What happened with Fiora was obvious and predictable as it was the same thing that happened to Karma. What happened with Sion is frustrating, but would be semi-manageable if the policy and "lessons learned" weren't tossed aside the moment someone got a really cool idea for traditional gangplank.
What do I need to do on my side? Because it seems like my current method isn't working.
patmax171 votesJust for completeness of information, some skins get updated for other reasons, e.g. Dragon Trainer Lulu :)
Riotmoonstones1 votesI purposefully excluded this example, as it was done by an artist on her own time to better match Dragon Trainer Tristana. It's an extremely rare case. :P
patmax172 votes"I see where you are coming from" xD
Yeah, makes sense, no need to create expectations around something that rare :)
Princess Mint1 votesWhat about Foxfire Ahri getting new particles and Base/Dynasty/Midnight/Foxfire getting a new Orb graphic?
That never got documented.