I would love to hear your and other skin team members thoughts on the Blood Moon Diana suggestions. How do you guys feel about the idea of postponing the skin so it can be made into a legendary? Or other suggestions such as the /toggle mask?
Riotmoonstones15 votesHiya! ^-^
For some context - while in development, we always start with blue sky ideas - literally anything goes - and then prune the ideas into what we need, and what odds and ends we can add to a skin to really make it feel cohesive in terms of the thematic, i.e., should it be legendary, should it be 975?
Now, picture that, but we're also doing this with ~10 skins at a time, and needing to allocate resources (animators, audio engineers, etc.) appropriately! We plan pretty far in advance, so we know what's coming down the pipeline, so we can inform other teams (like publishing, or merch!)
We're always open to suggestions and feedback, but there are limitations.
Taking a lower tier skin and turning it into a legendary isn't an overnight process. It involves several disciplines, and several weeks worth of work, which weren't originally planned for. We'd be looking at several weeks for animation alone, in order to provide what legendary tiers should offer. Legendary skins also have new VO - this also means hiring said voice actress (and really, hoping they aren't booked!), recording, cutting and editing, implementing, etc.
TL;DR: It isn't in realm of scope for what was planned out. I hate being the bearer of bad news, really.
That said, there are things that can be within scope for a skin like this - particle changes, small model changes, texture updates, a new sound added. We do hear out feedback, and ultimately, the team working on the skin makes the call on what suggestions they feel enhance the skin as a whole. I know that the color change for Diana's outfit was something that was heard for feedback, and had a pretty quick turnaround on the PBE!
Ah, and then there's the toggle! Yes, we have done toggles in the past (Neon Strike Vi and Night Hunter Rengar, and somewhat with DJ Sona, but that's hooked up a bit differently). We may veer away from toggles because they aren't always the right choice for a skin, and we could do more noticeable (read: cooler) things with other aspects, whether it's animation, particles, etc.
It was decided while in concept that Blood Moon Diana wasn't going to have a toggle, but that we would show the mask removal in the recall animation, which is why, in the splash, you can see her taking the mask off. That's where the two make a connection.
New animations aren't something that are added once a skin hits PBE, especially when it was planned that it wouldn't be included in a skin. Why not? Animations can take a week or more (plus testing!), and in the case of a toggle, hooking up tech that a regular skin wouldn't have.
So, about postponing? As I'd mentioned before, we plan ahead so other teams - a big one is publishing - can come up with a release plan. Now, that can be anything from a simple announcement page, to a micro site and video, and even more. Removing a key piece of the publishing pieces could be a nightmare for publishing, who, at this point, has most of their project complete and ready to roll.
A good example here would be if we took last years Star Guardian patch and removed Lulu. This would deeply affect the promo pieces, especially the video and the survey that determined which Star Guardian you were.
Don't get me wrong, I totally see where you guys are coming from - Blood Moon Diana is a killer skin, and there's a lot of hype around her! It's awesome to see so much passion for a skin, honestly. Sure, I wish we could make every skin a legendary 'cause let's face it, legendary skins are an awesome opportunity to push an alternate fantasy. But, this time around, it isn't in the cards for Diana. That said, it means she still has the opportunity for a legendary skin in the future! Suggestions always welcome!
I hope this doesn't come off as a 'hey, here's a bunch of excuses'. but rather a bit of insight into the skins process and planning. :)
Spideraxe2 votesI think after the land round of changes it's pretty solid gj :D
RlP K0BE2 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2gpTwumq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-27T21:44:39.724+0000)
Hiya! ^-^
For some context - while in development, we always start with blue sky ideas - literally anything goes - and then prune the ideas into what we need, and what odds and ends we can add to a skin to really make it feel cohesive in terms of the thematic, i.e., should it be legendary, should it be 975?
Now, picture that, but we're also doing this with ~10 skins at a time, and needing to allocate resources (animators, audio engineers, etc.) appropriately! We plan pretty far in advance, so we know what's coming down the pipeline, so we can inform other teams (like publishing, or merch!)
We're always open to suggestions and feedback, but there are limitations.
Taking a lower tier skin and turning it into a legendary isn't an overnight process. It involves several disciplines, and several weeks worth of work, which weren't originally planned for. We'd be looking at several weeks for animation alone, in order to provide what legendary tiers should offer. Legendary skins also have new VO - this also means hiring said voice actress (and really, hoping they aren't booked!), recording, cutting and editing, implementing, etc.
TL;DR: It isn't in realm of scope for what was planned out. I hate being the bearer of bad news, really.
That said, there are things that can be within scope for a skin like this - particle changes, small model changes, texture updates, a new sound added. We do hear out feedback, and ultimately, the team working on the skin makes the call on what suggestions they feel enhance the skin as a whole. I know that the color change for Diana's outfit was something that was heard for feedback, and had a pretty quick turnaround on the PBE!
Ah, and then there's the toggle! Yes, we have done toggles in the past (Neon Strike Vi and Night Hunter Rengar, and somewhat with DJ Sona, but that's hooked up a bit differently). We may veer away from toggles because they aren't always the right choice for a skin, and we could do more noticeable (read: cooler) things with other aspects, whether it's animation, particles, etc.
It was decided while in concept that Blood Moon Diana wasn't going to have a toggle, but that we would show the mask removal in the recall animation, which is why, in the splash, you can see her taking the mask off. That's where the two make a connection.
New animations aren't something that are added once a skin hits PBE, especially when it was planned that it wouldn't be included in a skin. Why not? Animations can take a week or more (plus testing!), and in the case of a toggle, hooking up tech that a regular skin wouldn't have.
So, about postponing? As I'd mentioned before, we plan ahead so other teams - a big one is publishing - can come up with a release plan. Now, that can be anything from a simple announcement page, to a micro site and video, and even more. Removing a key piece of the publishing pieces could be a nightmare for publishing, who, at this point, has most of their project complete and ready to roll.
A good example here would be if we took last years Star Guardian patch and removed Lulu. This would deeply affect the promo pieces, especially the video and the survey that determined which Star Guardian you were.
Don't get me wrong, I totally see where you guys are coming from - Blood Moon Diana is a killer skin, and there's a lot of hype around her! It's awesome to see so much passion for a skin, honestly. Sure, I wish we could make every skin a legendary 'cause let's face it, legendary skins are an awesome opportunity to push an alternate fantasy. But, this time around, it isn't in the cards for Diana. That said, it means she still has the opportunity for a legendary skin in the future! Suggestions always welcome!
I hope this doesn't come off as a 'hey, here's a bunch of excuses'. but rather a bit of insight into the skins process and planning. :)
Ah ok thank you very much. I had a feeling that turning it into a legendary skin would have a slim possibility. Too bad about the /toggle though, oh well the splash art is amazing and I am looking forward to this skins release to add it to my collection.
TheMeta883 votesAwesome reply! I love hearing insight like this. Thank you.
Speaking of recolors, is it intended that Diana's shoulder floof is dark grey in game but seemingly white in the splash?
The first time I saw the in game photos I was said to myself, "What in the fuck is on her shoulder?"
Checks splash "OH Is it supposed to be that WHITE majestic floofy thing? HM!"
Mirage Night2 votesI have to agree, the dark grey threw me off because the splash showed it as white.
HOBO 90001 votesIt kinda throws off the whole skin. Like a giant fluffy pimple. Can't say i like it much.
Riotmoonstones2 votesAlways glad to explain!
It is intended in-game, yes. I caught up with our 3D artist and they did try some lighter shades, but it got lost with her silhouette, since her hair is also a light white/lavender color.
Lithillya1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2gpTwumq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-27T21:44:39.724+0000)
New animations aren't something that are added once a skin hits PBE, especially when it was planned that it wouldn't be included in a skin. Why not? Animations can take a week or more (plus testing!), and in the case of a toggle, hooking up tech that a regular skin wouldn't have.
So, about postponing? As I'd mentioned before, we plan ahead so other teams - a big one is publishing - can come up with a release plan. Now, that can be anything from a simple announcement page, to a micro site and video, and even more. Removing a key piece of the publishing pieces could be a nightmare for publishing, who, at this point, has most of their project complete and ready to roll.
A good example here would be if we took last years Star Guardian patch and removed Lulu. This would deeply affect the promo pieces, especially the video and the survey that determined which Star Guardian you were.
Don't get me wrong, I totally see where you guys are coming from - Blood Moon Diana is a killer skin, and there's a lot of hype around her! It's awesome to see so much passion for a skin, honestly. Sure, I wish we could make every skin a legendary 'cause let's face it, legendary skins are an awesome opportunity to push an alternate fantasy. But, this time around, it isn't in the cards for Diana. That said, it means she still has the opportunity for a legendary skin in the future! Suggestions always welcome!
I hope this doesn't come off as a 'hey, here's a bunch of excuses'. but rather a bit of insight into the skins process and planning. :)
Possibly a dumb question, but even though postponing the release is ouf the question - and understably so - is that also the case for updating the skin further down the line, if it's decided that it'd be worth the effort? Or are skins ever touched outside of full visual updates for champions, after they've been released?
Riotmoonstones2 votesNot a dumb question at all!
It's pretty rare that we would update an existing skin once released, unless in the case of champion updates, as you've said, or if there's a gameplay concern (which is usually due to visual effects being difficult to read).
Winterkill2 votesThen why did Winter Wonder Karma not receive the appropriate treatment? Her hands are very dark and looks like she is wearing gloves, when it is not in the splash art. She has a snowflake tattoo on her shoulders that is present in the splash art but not in the game model. Her shield effects are still bland compared to the other snow day and winter wonder skin line shields. Sorry but it seems like the skin team doesn't do exactly that.
Riotmoonstones5 votesThis one's a bit tricky for me to answer since I wasn't directly involved in the creation of Winter Wonder Karma.
In game, yes she is wearing gloves. I don't have the answer as to why we're looking at gloves v. bare hands in the splash, but in general - when comparing a splash to an in-game model, they should be similar, but we don't call out that they should be a 1:1. We're looking at two different mediums, and a splash allows for much more detail than an in-game model would, so a detail here and there may be different. This is the case with the tattoo you're seeing on her hand/shoulder - they would be way too busy on the in-game model.
Winterkill1 votesBlood Moon Diana has tattoos on her body, so would that be considered too busy as well? I mean Blood Moon Diana has an intricate mask, brighter colors, a more revealing outfit, and tattoos but the Developers in charge of the Winter Wonder skin couldn't be bothered to match the splash art with the in-game model. This is what I do not understand when it comes to any content, work, or conversation about or on Karma . . . . it is always ignored, half-worked on, lazily worked on, or there is an excuse. The time of excuses, zero communication about Karma, and band-aid work done on her needs to stop. The Developers at Riot Games are coming off as not caring and ignoring Karma and her many dedicated fans. For a Development team to give her the type of rework she received in 2013 that removed all of her identity, unique appearance, interesting kit, gameplay, and much more . . . . and continue that lazy work by continuing to remove even more from her . . . . is showing the entire Karma community that Riot prefers for her to be this bland, unoriginal champion that sits in the back and builds shield enhancing items to be relevant in the game. When Karma receives a skin worth 1350 and the skin team and art team cannot be bothered to give exactly what they are supposed to on paper, but do it for another champion entirely . . . . really makes us question you even more.
Karma and her fanbase seem to be a disease at this point. The stone work in the middle of Summoners Rift has received more work done on it and communication about it than Karma ever has int he past four years.
Please show this to your fellow Development team members and really look at all of the work and comments Riot themselves have made about this champion around the time of her rework . . . . and the VERY limited work that continued to ruin her even more afterward. I do not think any Department at Riot Games even realizes or cares at this point of how much they took away and continue to take away from this champion. If the skin Department cannot be bothered to rectify mistakes and give Winter Wonder Karma the intricate diamond design on her tights, the tattoos on her shoulders, gloveless, and shield animations that are bland compared to any other champion in the skin line with a shield, then what is the point in having this champion in the game at all anymore? When it comes to ANYTHING involving this champion no Department at Riot Games cares.
Hellioning1 votesOkay, but let's assume you're buying Winter Wonder Karma in a year or two. You have never seen it in game, you have no idea what it looks like, but you really like how the splash looks, so you buy it.
Then you get in game and realize that a lot of the details you liked are nowhere to be seen.
How is that good for anyone involved? I'm not an artist, but from a consumer's perspective, it seems unfair.
PapaGreg211 votesThis is more of a general comment on some skin lines more than Diana specifically, but I get turned off from buying a skin sometimes if too many champs in that line get hard to distinguish from one another. Examples would be the marauder skins, skins with bloodmoon masks, and maybe even the two dark star skins. Ideally there would be a little more to differentiate them from each other imo. That's why I personally thought the mask toggle would be nice because the in game view I don't even recognize who some of these champs are sometimes. I couldn't even tell who everybody was in the teaser for the bloodmoon skins.
Lithillya1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2gpTwumq,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2017-01-30T17:56:38.405+0000)
Not a dumb question at all!
It's pretty rare that we would update an existing skin once released, unless in the case of champion updates, as you've said, or if there's a gameplay concern (which is usually due to visual effects being difficult to read).
Makes sense. Thank you for the answer even if it might not have been entirely what I'd been hoping for. :)
Riotmoonstones1 votesYou're welcome! I know it sucks when something can't be done, or what you're hearing isn't ideal, but thanks for understanding and hearing me out! ^-^
Lithillya1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2gpTwumq,comment-id=00000003000000020000,timestamp=2017-01-31T17:12:30.179+0000)
You're welcome! I know it sucks when something can't be done, or what you're hearing isn't ideal, but thanks for understanding and hearing me out! ^-^
Anything's easier to deal with when there's been a reasonable explanation behind the decision. Going somewhat offtopic, is there a chance that you're considering making a Blood Moon skin for Zyra? Remember seeing a suggestion thread for a skin like that a while back, and it was part of what even made me pick up the champion, since it was so very well made.
https://41.media.tumblr.com/8c6ab9c406428c1fe9ff31d454b671ae/tumblr_o3qufgMNoV1qk32lpo6_r1_1280.png
T'was the art that went with the thread, and while I know champions with 'pets' takes far more effort to make skins for, it'd be awesome for her to get one. Especially when it's one that'd seem as fitting as this.
Electro5222 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2gpTwumq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-27T21:44:39.724+0000)
But, this time around, it isn't in the cards for Diana. That said, it means she still has the opportunity for a legendary skin in the future! Suggestions always welcome!
You know.......You guys have yet to finish the Dragonslayer line. That team, in particualr, is missing a mid laner. I wonder what mid laner could fit in a brawly/dive in and get in your face kind of comp, such as Dragonslayer.....hmmm.
You wouldn't happen to have any ideas to this kind of mid laner, would you Katey?
Riotmoonstones4 votesI... I think I might have a few ideas. ;)
Rude Name3 votesInb4 Dragonslayer Aurelion Sol
Edit: this is a good time to ask a quick question. Are contradictory skins out of the question, like Dragonslayer Aurelion Sol, Happy Amumu, or Mass Murderer Ivern?
Riotmoonstones4 votesEhhh, I think we could do better! ;)
Contradictory skins aren't out of the question, if they're a strong enough idea!
tzvi3 votes+1 for mass murderer ivern
Illazarus2 votesContradictory as it is, I still think Dark Star Aurelion Sol would be amazing. The stars around him being the black orbs. Spicy
devil hosting1 votesI swear if there is no dragon-slayer Mordekaiser I'm triggered my man Morde needs a new set of armor and look he already loves killing dragons you don't even have to persuade him. Just tell him look keep killing the dragon and get a new skin
Riotmoonstones6 votesDragon Mordekaiser, where is armor changes based on the dragons earned in game. ;)
blackfootedfox1 votesyes please, I'll take one now
devil hosting3 votesYes, THIS IS THE NEXT MORDEKAISER SKIN! NEVER FORGET Dragonslayer Mordekaiser with evolving dragon scale armor and if you get the elder dragon his mace turns into the elder dragon's head
Lùmen1 votesI'll pay 10k RP for something like this. Really
PaladinNO1 votesarmor changes based on the dragons earned in game
Also, Shyvana - but as an avid ARAM player... :'(
Riotmoonstones2 votesArmor changes based on how many people feed the poros. ;)
PaladinNO1 votesTHAT I am game for! :D
#plzMakePoroSnacksPurchasableInTheShop
Riotmoonstones1 votesB...but feeding poros is a team effort!
PaladinNO1 votesDoes this mean we'll see the old poros back sometime? The new creatures, not even the overhauled ones, ain't fluffy and poro-like enough for me. :'(
http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/community-spotlight/origin-poros
On a more serious note, who/which rioter should I be talking to regarding ARAM balancing/item changes? I know there is no dedicated balancing team to maps other than Summoner's Rift, but surely there must be someone to talk to.
I do pretty much live on the Howling Abyss (played ARAM match #6432 today), so I know most about what is to do there (love the post-match part with Lissandra telling about Howling Abyss btw.), but my ideas might be complete bonkers for some reason that I haven't thought, but I'd still like to be able to discuss my ideas with someone who can make the changes happen.
Some specifics would be (ARAM only): -Remove Mark (or at least remove damage/vision). -Revert Guardian's Horn changes. -Bring back Zephyr and the Boot enchantments. -Bring back The Lightbringer, Twin Shadows and Hextech Sweeper.
Illazarus1 votesHey Katey! I just wanted to say without sounding like a dick that it does feel like a bit of a cop out to hear that it's not in the cards to make this a legendary skin when the story about how Dark Star Thresh came into being was that they were given half the time off the bat to make it with and that turned out amazing. I don't mean about getting it changed to a legendary, I think it's ridiculous that it wasn't in the first place. And it feels like they only would have had more time to at least spitball ideas since this is something everyone has wanted for a long time. Also to the same point, it feels super bad tbh. I mean, I think the skin is amazing, but the fact that it isn't a legendary is kinda silly when everyone knows the fans have wanted this skin for a ling time, myself included. 3-4 years at this point? :P The only reason I didn't complain about the fact that it didn't come out and stuff like blood moon Zilean did was because I 100% believed that it was gonna be a legendary because why wouldn't they? It's so obvious that it's what everyone wants that it's driving me crazy xD Rant over, I know it's like not your fault either so my bad for going ham at you there, just feel like I needed to vent :P My real question though! Is there any possible way you could get me an image of the tattoo on her arm? It's something I kind of wanted for myself but I can't get a clear enough image of it :/
Riotmoonstones3 votesHey! I wouldn't say you're being a dick at all, you're not attacking anyone, you're just giving your honest opinion, which is something we actively seek.
I would say that Dark Star Thresh was a special case, as is every skin. I don't think it's fair to compare one skin to another because we plan each skin differently, and don't use a cookie cutter format.
I agree that Blood Moon Diana was a huge player win because it was something that was highly suggested, and in a lot of ways a no-brainer for Diana. However, I personally don't think a skin should be legendary because it's a popular idea. I can see some of the suggestions working for Diana as a legendary skin, but for me, the part that would make it hard for her to be a legendary skin is her VO and potentially some of her animations, since they're pretty quick and not something that would be highly noticeable if we changed them. I speak from experience here with animations, as many players felt that Star Guardian Jinx's animations (run, AA, etc.) were the same as the base, and I worry it's something Diana would also fall into. As for VO, I'm not sure there is enough to pull for a full roster of VO lines for the Blood Moon thematic. Yes, I'm sure VO could be written, but would it be impactful enough?
I'd personally rather see a legendary for her in a skin line - potentially the first of it - where she can really break out of her normality and be completely flipped on her head into something totally different. As always, suggestions are welcome! :D
As for the tattoo, that's something I can certainly hook you up with! :)
EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votesI don't really have any cool ideas for a legendary Diana skin but it would be pretty epic if you did a legendary Diana and Leona duo. they're so intertwined as characters but they don't share any skin thematics at all. which is fine but I also think its cool when there's a shared theme between related champs occasionally- like galactic azir/renekton/nasus, or thresh and kalista skins
Riotmoonstones3 votesI 100% agree with you! I've seen 'eclipse' versions of both Diana and Leona, and I think that's a pretty awesome idea, and something that could be neat to a legendary duo. -
I think it's cool when champs are paired, like you said, Kalista and Thresh, or even when we go as far to create a full team comp for one thematic. :)
VelvetCrotch1 votesawesome to read ure whole explanations and ideas! i rlly enjoyed it, ty. (hope for the eclipse skinline and some similar implementations)
Riotmoonstones2 votesYou're welcome! I'm always happy to explain things where I can! :)
tzvi1 votesThoughts on a project diana, or are we done with those?
Also i'm curious if you happen to know, what kind of legal research and or ethical lines does riot have to consider when making skins that resemble other "things"? i've been told king rammus is no longer available because it resembles a certain koopa to much [which kills me since i have every rammus skin but it :'( ] but what about skins that might resemble giant mecha animes, or ones that dip into religion like pastafarianism velkoz?
Riotmoonstones2 votesI think it's a sick idea! We aren't opposed to adding to that skin line, and I think she has some awesome potential.
My friend Tom Randby made this awesome PROJECT: Diana concept that I'm a huge fan of! *Tries to summon Tom*
https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/003/401/488/large/thomas-randby-projectdiana.jpg?1473308946 https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/003/401/498/large/thomas-randby-1.jpg?1473309008 https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/003/401/499/large/thomas-randby-projectdianaq.jpg?1473309011
We have a whole team that helps us draw the line between copying and using something for inspiration. Truth be told, a lot of what we do is based off of our own ideas and 3-5+ outside inspirations!
King Rammus isn't available because he was a limited skin that was handed out to beta participants. :)
We do have a Mecha line, and Super Galaxy plays a bit on mecha animes! Religion is a tricky one in general, so we may veer away from any of that. Although, I would love to see a flying spaghetti monster. -
tzvi2 votesyou right, that's pretty dope. I appreciate the feedback :D. still praying for flying spaghetti monster vel'koz. happy to know it's not automatically disqualified.
Illazarus1 votesThanks for getting back to me about it! Yeah I kinda felt there were going to be good reasons why it wasn't going to be a legendary skin but I just wasn't sure what they were. As much as it pains me to say it makes sense :P And thanks a million for the image :) I don't wanna be pushing my luck here but do you think there would be any way of getting a flat image of just the tattoo? It's a lot more detailed in the splash and I want to get it for myself so I was wondering if there's any way you could find out off the design team or send me on to someone from it if possible? :P If not it's totally cool though! Also just out of curiosity is it supposed to be red or blue? In the splash it looks red and in game it looks kinda blue. I'm just assuming its red for mow anyway. Thanks again! ^^
Riotmoonstones2 votesIt never hurts to ask! :D
Hrm, the best flat image I have is her texture file, whiiiich looks like dis! If you wanna base it off the splash, just duplicate what you see in the splash, since it shows one side of the tattoo - it's symmetrical.
It's more of a purple than anything else. :) The texture file would be most accurate, since it doesn't have any sort of lighting on it, like in-game or splash would!
You'll have to show me your tattoo when you get it done!
Illazarus1 votesI didn't actually realize that it was symmetrical, that's perfect so! I'll show you as soon as ^^ Thanks again for the help :)
Riotmoonstones2 votesYou're very welcome, glad this was helpful! <3
PaladinNO1 votesYou did ask what price bracket the community wanted the skin to be in before taking the planning too far to revert, right?
Blood Moon Talon, Jhin and whatever else is in there are just skins. Blood Moon Diana has been a long-running meme(!), and that makes it special.
Lùmen2 votesWhy is this so downvoted? wtf
Krait1 votesI absolutely can't wait for this skin to come out, and the tweaks so far have helped immensely. But for the love of the moon please fix her left arm/shoulder- That fluffy pauldron thing looks like she has some kind of grotesque monster growing out of her shoulder. How to fix: make it 50% smaller and match the color to the splash (white/light grey instead of black/dark grey). While you're on the left arm, just shorten up her sleeve a smidge to fall in line with the splash.
GreenLore1 votesHonestly I doubt that making it legendary would even benefit the skin that much. I mean sure she'd get some nice animations and a new VO. But her VO is already all about the moon,so it wouldn't be that much different eitherway wouldn't it?So the new VO doesn't even offer that many new options.
