Realistically, armies that don't know when to retreat and fight another day end up getting annihilated and thus Demacia would be wiped out fairly easily. If it was condensed to Garen never retreating, then that'd be more reasonable, but considering Quinn, Lux, etc., having the entire military forbidding retreat is simply beyond belief.
Does this sound about right for future Demacia lore plans?
Sharjo7 votesGiven the fact that in the new lore Demacia's army might be the smallest but also the most elite, well trained and disciplined army existing in Runeterra right now, I'd say yeah, they're gonna know when to retreat.
RcGjWO640w4 votesThis assumes that game developers generally understand proper military tactics, especially when said tactics aren't pertinent to the gameplay. It sounds more badass on paper to have a hero or group of heros who "never back down" as some allegory for never giving up on your dreams or some other corny, paladin-esque trope.
BloodyTompon4 votesIt will be changed from 'never retreat' to 'always advance'.
rand0mredneck4 votesI think the whole "Never retreat" deal was always more a propaganda tool. You know, make them sound like badass and such. If they actually never knew when to cut and run, Noxus would have obliterated them ages ago.
Marshbouy2 votes
"retreating? I'm just simply advancing in the opposite direction!"
Warlord Dienekes2 votesHope so, but truth be told nothing I've seen from Riot so far shows a thorough understanding of military doctrine. They may be going for a more cartoony style in which things like never backing down is considered a cool trait.
Ralanr1 votesI can actually understand why. There's a lot to consider when making a culture and how it's area effects them. Hell even the way they cook their food is a big factor.
Granted Riot isn't run by one person and they aren't just starting out. So while such "cool" traits can be ok early on, they may be persuaded to be a bit more realistic.
Because they're creating a world however, they are allowed to have a few different moods in different places. Noxus can be very serious, but it's allowed to have Kled.
Ok not the best example.
Warlord Dienekes3 votesYou see that kind of inconsistency of mood doesn't bother me all that much, because cultures are multifaceted. The world is vast, and picking a time period and choosing two societies at random from around the world can potentially look like completely different worlds. Ok, so an example that I've used way too much, but it's one of the best ones I know is real life Sparta. I love these guys, such a complex society.
Anyway, we all have it in our head that they were these amazing soldiers who lived and died only for war. And, in comparison to basically every other culture in the world except, maybe the early Mongols and the Assyrians that's true. But just looking at them, in their city they had more temples to Aphrodite the goddess of love than they had to Ares. Their major religious festival was dedicated (admittedly only in part) to Dionysus the god of basically getting drunk and partying. Cultures can have so much complexity to them and still be realistic. It just has to make sense to how a society would conceivably develop. For Sparta, their city-state developed out of the Dorian Greek expansion, so that's why they held the traditional Dorian gods in such high regard (Apollo, Artemis, Aphrodite, and Dionysus are a few of the major ones), despite only one of them (Artemis) really making sense if we think about the Hollywood version of Sparta.
That said, military doctrine and cultural development do have a few rules, that really don't take much thought to figure out how they got there. The example I used when Kled came out is: don't mix weapons in formations if they don't work together. The most obvious problem is grenades and crossbows, which I don't think I need to describe why both of those would be problematic when moving forward in a formation with people in melee range. But, other weapons, like halberds and spears only work in tight formations of similar or the same weapon.
The same is true for cultural development. Like my big joke is Bilgewater which somehow has stylings that are both 1700s High Seas pirates and also 1800s frontier. But, both of those are mutually exclusive. One requires vast quantities of water, numerous small islands, and a vast interwoven trade network to prey upon. The other requires possibly thousands of miles of flat, arid land to herd massive amounts of cattle, or whatever animal they're herding. It is a fantasy world after all.
But, I am under no delusions here. This sort of thing bothers me, because I study this stuff for a living. It's my passion. The average player will likely not give this a seconds thought. And it's perfectly fine for Riot to choose to cater to them instead of me. Honestly, doing that is probably the far more economical move. It requires way less research at the very least. But to me, those details are what takes a fantasy world from being interesting to being fantastic. Currently, Runeterra is only vaguely interesting, to me. There's too much going on that would vastly change the cultural and political landscape that is just being ignored for all societies to go through the feeling that Riot wants for them. It makes things seem inconsistent.
But this is starting to go into the bitching of an academic, and I'm trying to cut back on that.
Dear god I go on rants at the drop of a hat. I will need to learn to curtail that, too.
Ralanr2 votesNo need. I need reading material anyway.
Mirkhail1 votesLux and quinn are part ot the demacia special forces, they probably aren't often on the battlefield. I think demacian will hold the position as much as they can, 300 style, but they probably will retreat at some point.
RcGjWO640w1 votesI don't think you remember how the Battle of Thermopylae ended...
Ralanr1 votesNot knowing when to retreat sounds more Noxian than Demacian.
Plus when you consider the insult Taric suffered on the mountain, it's not to hard to consider that Demacians may have a history of running from battles. At least to war focused cultures.
Iwinatlife422 votesTaric was disgraced on the mountain because he was a Demacian who was not at his post where he was needed and so his unit was massacred therefore he was sentenced to climb fantasy Everest and die with at lest a shred of honor. Then other things intervened
Ralanr1 votesYeah, and the ghost said something along the lines of, "You should just run away. That's all you Demacians are good for."
Iwinatlife421 votesWell thats because Targon is even more Extreme. Demacia is the Fight to the last man in the name of King and Country Paladin Lawful "good". Targon is War is Life Duty above all Spartans who kill each other to make the best rise to the top. More Lawful Neutral Might Makes Reality types
Ralanr1 votesOk, but that didn't look like a Targonian to me. He looked Freljordian.
Iwinatlife421 votesWell He might have been but I assumed Targonian because he was on Mount Targon
TyrekGoldenspear1 votesThe Demancian army leadership in a nutshell.
TenshouSNK1 votesI got a question. Kinda off topic but considering Quinn is Elite part of the army, can she give out orders to regular soldiers?
Warlord Dienekes1 votesIt really depends on how the military is set up. I don't think the lore has said anything about it, yet (paging Sharjo to swoop in and prove me wrong) if we're going by medieval to renaissance armies, no. Not really. Strict military hierarchies were a bit haphazardly scrapped together with things like captain or lieutenant meaning anything from high general to leader of about 5 soldiers. So having people being part of an elite force of the army were still somewhat muddled in what that actually means when dealing with the rest of the army. That said, there is likely some terms of respect or fear in positions of prominence that could lead her to make suggestions (or maybe orders if they respect her enough) and actually have the other soldiers follow suit. It wouldn't be anything official but competency and respect can be big motivators in getting people to listen to you when they do not strictly speaking need to.
Ralanr1 votesCan I ask you how mercenaries worked back then?
I've had an idea for a story but can't get the satisfactory information (mainly the daily life of a mercenary, their company, and pay check disputes).
Warlord Dienekes1 votesOh wow. It really depends on what you mean by 'back then'. Give me a rough time period (early modern, late medieval, high medieval, migration era, late Rome, 3rd century crisis, high Roman Empire, Roman Republic, Greek Ancients, and Mesopotamian ancients) and rough location (Mediterranean, Japan, Central Europe, Norwegian, Egypt, Britain, etc.) and I can maybe give you some help.
Ralanr1 votesI was thinking time periods where heavy powers have recently fallen, leading to several warlords and loose kingdoms fighting over territory.
So I guess Fuedal Japan, late Rome, and the dark ages of Europe (though I guess the dark ages is a bit broad. I'm not a big history buff).
Warlord Dienekes1 votesOk sounds Migration Era, 3rd century crisis, warring states, sengoku jidai-ish.
What bases is your fantasy culture here before the fall? Did you see them as Ancient Rome-esque or medieval in tech? Or maybe Japanese? Just so I have a starting point.
Ralanr1 votesThat's a tough question, especially when you consider how magic can affect technological advancement.
I'd say seige weapons like the balista are very popular among human and other "modern" tech groups, with dwarves (some dwarven kingdoms anyway. I'm trying to make it so there isn't just a "dwarf" city) having more advanced technology (think tanks and early guns, but they lack the resources to mass produce or power them for invasions, making them more isolationist).
In fact, seige weapon development is probably just ramping up due to how rare magic is (since ancient kingdoms had mages instead of war machines).
There's still a lot I'm thinking about. I'm actually writing a second novel (the first is still in editing) set in the world. It's not about the mercenaries, as I'm saving that for when I have those understood due to how important that is for two characters.
Wow. I'm actually a lot more thoughtful in world building than I take myself for.
Warlord Dienekes1 votesAlright, well, ballista are a fairly complex machine that was most famously used by the Romans.
Early guns, just for the record, are actually pretty cheap to make after you figure out how. They were just unreliable, crossbows were usually better for a long time after they began to see use.
If I could make a suggestion, instead of real tanks perhaps "war-wagons" would make more sense, it's earlier about 1400s and is basically strapping a cannon to a wagon. They're a precursor that seems like it would fit the setting far easier than true tanks.
Now, out of curiosity, what type of magic was being used by the ancients? As that would probably influence armor tech.
Anyway, I'm back at work so I probably won't reply to anything until tomorrow.
Ralanr1 votesYou see I'm not so sure (it's all still being brainstormed really).
Magic is tricky because I kinda want to go the D&D/pathfinder route of magic, but that kind of magic breaks story plots too easily.
The key aspect I want to keep with magic is that the more magical knowledge a country has the more influential it would be on a world stage (think nuked and first world countries).
There would also have to be different kinds of magic (or at least I want there to be). Divine, arcane, and spiritual.
Divine magic is probably unreliable and weak, but has moments where it can rival the power of arcane magic (miracles).
Arcane magic (which was probably the most utilized) with enough mastery and knowledge can turn a single person into a nuclear weapon in terms of power, but it also depends on how they utilize their magic. I'd imagine that ancient kingdoms still had armies to fight with because they'd have mages built to counterspell other mages and vice versa.
Then we have spiritual magic, which is very unreliable and very powerful. It's unreliable because you need to channel the power of a spirit, which usually is only allowed through making a deal (and spirits are fickle beings. They can pull back their power at any time for almost any reason depending on the spirit). What differs it from arcane is also how it has seemingly endless power (as powerful as an arcane magic user is, they have a limit to how much they can use before they get backlashes. Spirit users at this point in time don't, their drawback is deals).
I'd imagine that ancient civilization magics were a mixture of arcane and spirit (using arcane to enslave spirits I believe) that led to their downfall.
As for what that means in warfare? Imagine storms with targeted lighting strikes being made and cancelled constantly in the middle of battle. Or turning the very earth into soldiers to do your bidding. Some low rank arcane users might be put on the ground to "buff" their soldiers (this is actually a dwarven battle Mage tactic I thought of. Basically every squad has a mage that specializes in artillery defenses and other protection so they can get their squad into the fight).
There is a lot I need to think over.
Warlord Dienekes1 votesJeez, ok I said I'd do this almost a week ago.
Better late than never, I hope.
Magic is tricky because I kinda want to go the D&D/pathfinder route of magic, but that kind of magic breaks story plots too easily.
For the terms of plot, I generally find if you remove teleportation, and long range scrying you're generally ok. But, I'll leave that to you. I will talk briefly about cultural development and D&D:
Arcane magic (which was probably the most utilized) with enough mastery and knowledge can turn a single person into a nuclear weapon in terms of power, but it also depends on how they utilize their magic. I'd imagine that ancient kingdoms still had armies to fight with because they'd have mages built to counterspell other mages and vice versa.
You might want to check out The Malazan Book of the Fallen series, it did a bit with how magic will shape armies when it is possible to have mages that can destroy an entire army by themselves. I haven't read all of them myself but I enjoyed the two I did read.
As for what that means in warfare? Imagine storms with targeted lighting strikes being made and cancelled constantly in the middle of battle. Or turning the very earth into soldiers to do your bidding. Some low rank arcane users might be put on the ground to "buff" their soldiers (this is actually a dwarven battle Mage tactic I thought of. Basically every squad has a mage that specializes in artillery defenses and other protection so they can get their squad into the fight).
Well, a lot depends on what each of these spells are capable of. For example if the biggest thing an enemy mage can do is summon lightning, I can see armies transitioning to smaller, but more thoroughly equipped soldiers with steel from head to toe to act as a Faraday cage. That can be done with just a mail hauberk and footed pants.
Here, I'm gonna link you to something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwb7b9Ks0VE&index=49&list=PL2FCD81A6FE4280AC
I think this guy really gets how magic should be used in stories. That one, and the lecture just following it has some bits on how magic develops cultures, but not as much as I would like. But really, if you really want your setting to make sense, write down every single thing that your magic does. How common it is, and so on. If it's very common it will have far reaching effects.
I mentioned food and water above. But transportation is important as well. Does the magic create energy that can be harnessed (you mentioned lightning earlier) the dwarves control ground, so how does that shape the way their homes look (if it's really common do they even have doors or do they just knock down a section of wall and then put it back up every time they enter a room?).
This is not an extensive list but here's some questions you might want to ask with each magic trick:
-Does the magic effect how many people can live in a city (food, water, disease, cleanliness)? -Does the magic effect how long it takes to travel? -Does the magic make resources more useful/desirable? (ex: aforementioned metal for faraday cage armor) -Does the magic effect how the average person lives their daily life? -Does the magic centralize economic power or disperse economic power? -Same as above but for politics -What can a person do to deal with each of these magical powers? -If the answer is nothing, why haven't the mages taken over the world? -If they have, what problems might they face? -Does your magic self-correct, or will you get into detail about it? Say magic shapes the ground and warps a river away from somewhere that needs it, what happens? -With the magic in mind, does whatever non-magic basis you used as a foundation for your world make sense? (Ex. We all, almost subconsciously rely on what we know to inform us of what we're making. So let's say you started your story with a vague Roman aesthetic. But, if everyone can throw giant unblockable fireballs, marching into battle in a formation would be suicide, so no one would do it. So how do you think an army would form to deal with these giant, unblockable fireballs? Maybe smaller, more stealth focused so they get their fireballs shot out faster? Use your imagination)
Any more questions, just ask. I will reply. Hopefully quicker than this time.
TenshouSNK2 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2K3r92T6,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-08-25T16:53:14.581+0000)
It really depends on how the military is set up. I don't think the lore has said anything about it, yet (paging Sharjo to swoop in and prove me wrong) if we're going by medieval to renaissance armies, no. Not really. Strict military hierarchies were a bit haphazardly scrapped together with things like captain or lieutenant meaning anything from high general to leader of about 5 soldiers. So having people being part of an elite force of the army were still somewhat muddled in what that actually means when dealing with the rest of the army. That said, there is likely some terms of respect or fear in positions of prominence that could lead her to make suggestions (or maybe orders if they respect her enough) and actually have the other soldiers follow suit. It wouldn't be anything official but competency and respect can be big motivators in getting people to listen to you when they do not strictly speaking need to.
Sooo, can she order soldiers below her rank?
Warlord Dienekes1 votesSooo, can she order soldiers below her rank?
Rank is kind of a modern concept. Yes the Romans had some ranks (nowhere near the level we have today), but the vast majority of medieval armies you were a lieutenant a captain or a soldier. Lieutenants were generally under captains. That's really it. Some few armies were a bit better organized with maybe some parallel to a sergeant but most didn't, or if they did didn't record about them.
TenshouSNK1 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2K3r92T6,comment-id=0008000000010000,timestamp=2016-08-26T01:22:15.832+0000)
Rank is kind of a modern concept. Yes the Romans had some ranks (nowhere near the level we have today), but the vast majority of medieval armies you were a lieutenant a captain or a soldier. Lieutenants were generally under captains. That's really it. Some few armies were a bit better organized with maybe some parallel to a sergeant but most didn't, or if they did didn't record about them.
I'm not asking about real world ranking
Warlord Dienekes1 votesI'm not asking about real world ranking
Which hasn't been stated in any lore that I know of. So I fall back on rough historical equivalent.
TenshouSNK1 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2K3r92T6,comment-id=000800000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-26T03:36:06.893+0000)
Which hasn't been stated in any lore that I know of. So I fall back on rough historical equivalent.
I am just asking if a scout like Quinn can order or command troops.
Warlord Dienekes2 votesI am just asking if a scout like Quinn can order or command troops.
And I'm saying: Historically? No. In Runeterra? The answer is whatever Riot says, which so far has been nothing.
Narvuntien1 votesI think it is just propaganda, fed to the Demcian population, not what the actual millitary does.
Demcian populous probably straight thinks they never lose.
Ethereal3111 votesThis is a grimdark fantasy world! Of course they wouldn't know how to retreat.
darkdill1 votesEven then, it'd go beyond the realm of belief.
