Why is Garen a thing?

Yellow Diamond·Apr 7, 2016·3 votes·1,185 views

I mean, yeah juggernauts were pretty outrageous when they came out but after awhile we all just accepted them, but my question is why is he so powerful still. Why can a full tank Garen do 1300 damage with only 110 ad in .7 seconds at level 11 when you're not even the villain (I understand why with his abilities but it's literally just why?) Tbh I've always hated Garen so I'm pretty biased I just want to hear some people's explanation of why Garen, or just juggernauts in general, existing is seen as okay by Riot lol or if me tilting right now is clouding my judgement haha.

13 Comments

Elite4RunnerApr 7, 20163 votes

Before the Juggernaut update top lane was really hurting for some attention. That role was one of the most boring to play and this update was intended to help improve upon that position. When I say this, I don't mean Garen specifically, but as a fairly old champion, this was a chance for Riot to give him an update. I personally really like the new Garen. He is definitely more aggressive as a front line champion than many, but that is what makes him unique, ... -ish.

Also, try to remember, when the Juggernaut update came around, there was a HUGE uproar because there was no easy way to deal with them. Since then, as you said, they have begun to be more accepted because the Marksman update provided a few answers, for example item 3036 was specifically released to target Juggernauts.

I also imagine that the Mage update, and updates to other roles to come will also have at least one factor designed to balance all of the roles across the board. However, keep in mind that a big part of what makes League of Legends "BALANCED" is the fact that there are so many champions with unique strengths and weaknesses.

Yellow DiamondApr 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Before the Juggernaut update top lane was really hurting for some attention. That role was one of the most boring to play and this update was intended to help improve upon that position. When I say this, I don't mean Garen specifically, but as a fairly old champion, this was a chance for Riot to give him an update. I personally really like the new Garen. He is definitely more aggressive as a front line champion than many, but that is what makes him unique, ... -ish.

Also, try to remember, when the Juggernaut update came around, there was a HUGE uproar because there was no easy way to deal with them. Since then, as you said, they have begun to be more accepted because the Marksman update provided a few answers, for example was specifically released to target Juggernauts.

I also imagine that the Mage update, and updates to other roles to come will also have at least one factor designed to balance all of the roles across the board. However, keep in mind that a big part of what makes League of Legends "BALANCED" is the fact that there are so many champions with unique strengths and weaknesses.

Ohh good point with the mage update, didn't think of that. I hope you're right because I understand that void staff/liandrys are made to hurt tanks I just don't feel like they necessarily have the same impact that the new adc items have on them. Thanks for your insight!

CrimsonCobra3Apr 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Crystal Gem ,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q2ywn4lG,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-04-07T11:12:11.421+0000)

Ohh good point with the mage update, didn't think of that. I hope you're right because I understand that void staff/liandrys are made to hurt tanks I just don't feel like they necessarily have the same impact that the new adc items have on them. Thanks for your insight!

No, there isn't really an equivalent mage item. Notably, Garen generally needs to target squishies because he has trouble killing anyone who stacks any sort of defenses. (The 'Villain' debuff/buff is what helps him take on the tankier enemies.)

Elite4RunnerApr 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Crystal Gem ,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q2ywn4lG,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-04-07T11:12:11.421+0000)

Ohh good point with the mage update, didn't think of that. I hope you're right because I understand that void staff/liandrys are made to hurt tanks I just don't feel like they necessarily have the same impact that the new adc items have on them. Thanks for your insight!

Great timing it seems. There was recently a post that details the items set to update in 6.9 (a.k.a. the Mage update).

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/79cto3EB-planned-69-mana-x-mp5-x-ap-x-mr-item-pass

I'm actually a little disappointed to say that it doesn't look like we are in luck, but I can't say for sure that I fully understand what all of the items will actually do. From what I can tell these new items seem to offer more utility and sustain for mages, which is good, but there don't seem to be any items that are specifically stronger against champions with greater health like with item 3036 . However, as I think someone else mentioned in this thread, a lot of mages do have some sort of %HP component to them, so maybe that is the idea for how mages are supposed to ultimately deal with tanks. Having greater utility, and more reliable means of using that utility in order to escape or deal massive damage could definitely shut down tanks in general.

UnpaladinApr 7, 20161 votes

Despite his Spin ability making him seem like a strong AoE champion, he is actually extremely powerful at 1v1's. While this is kind of a theme of the Juggernaut rework, the thing is he's actually a very versatile juggernaut that by design can thrive in situations where he can punish bad positioning and lack of peel.

He's not used in high level play because he can easily be peeled off of carries; take a look at his E. It deals less damage when it hits multiple targets. This means that not only is he susceptible to slows (which are in almost every kit), but also literally anything that can peel in the slightest manner. Simply standing near him reduces his effectiveness. I'm convinced he's a nice champion and don't see where most of the hate for him is coming from. If you have a problem with him, just uh, pick Vayne or something. She has like two champions worth of free peel in one.

Yellow DiamondApr 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nova Force,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q2ywn4lG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-07T03:30:49.776+0000)

Despite his Spin ability making him seem like a strong AoE champion, he is actually extremely powerful at 1v1's. While this is kind of a theme of the Juggernaut rework, the thing is he's actually a very versatile juggernaut that by design can thrive in situations where he can punish bad positioning and lack of peel.

He's not used in high level play because he can easily be peeled off of carries; take a look at his E. It deals less damage when it hits multiple targets. This means that not only is he susceptible to slows (which are in almost every kit), but also literally anything that can peel in the slightest manner. Simply standing near him reduces his effectiveness. I'm convinced he's a nice champion and don't see where most of the hate for him is coming from. If you have a problem with him, just uh, pick Vayne or something. She has like two champions worth of free peel in one.

Thanks! I was wondering if he was used in higher ranks or not and you had a understandable reply

EllphiApr 7, 20161 votes

Because he has no real utility or gapclosers, his only threat-value as a champion is the potential to do a pretty good amount of damage if he actually touches something.

He's actually pretty garbage when you compare him to some of the more favored tanks like Naut who simultaneously have insane amounts of utility, consistent gap-closers, and also manage to do a ton of damage.

Cosmicpanda2Apr 7, 20161 votes

i think he is more so concerned with the damage scaling on Garen he does have a point when i played garen, mainly just to get keys and FWOTD bonus IP, i do notice that full tank garen is just as deadly as a hybrid garen the scaling is just out of whack and doesnt seem right that a tank gets such a powerful damage scaling when he can just soak up damage AND dish it out. You should often have it one or the other in most hero designs and only some can be an exception (Vlad for one, but silences and stuns and shut him down)

EllphiApr 7, 20161 votes

Tanks have to get their threat value from somewhere, or else they cease to be tanks because people just ignore them.

Usually tanks get value from %hp damage and/or high utility, Garen just happens to get his value from decent damage.

I actually think Garen is one of the weakest front liners ATM because he's so easy to counterplay.

Cosmicpanda2Apr 8, 20161 votes

true but im just talking about the ad scaling if it was max hp scaling it would be a different story

EmbertineApr 7, 20161 votes

Posted this in the wrong sub-boards mate. Should be in gameplay.

Stars ShaperApr 7, 20161 votes

Becuase having tankish resilence plus high damage is what defines juggernauts. You should fight them with CCs.

OksanaandjoyApr 19, 20161 votes

I'm ok with his power, except that his Q allows him so much mobility. The juggernaut details always assert that they are powerful but only if they get close. With a little CDR he can keep that 30% mobility up pretty consistently, really shutting down the opportunity for ADC's to kite.

When an ADC and support face off against Garen he should at least pause before thinking about going in. This just isn't the case as he can essentially kite himself: pop in, chunk of some damage, pop out and heal up with his passive, jump in with his ult, kill one, then chase down the other. I've heard people say he is countered with CC, but you need a lot as he can cleanse slows with his Q too. For someone who is in the slow class, he moves around quickly.