Skillshots and Point-and-Clicks

Yellow Diamond·Sep 28, 2015·2 votes·873 views

What is your guys's opinions on a hypothetical time where riot changed most of the point-and-clicks to skillshots? As in Teemo darts and Pantheon spears were no longer point-and-click? I understand that champs like Liss and Syndra can't really change their ults from point-and-clicks to skillshots, but I'm really just questioning if the game would be more fun if most projectiles became skillshots. Like the good old risk vs reward that riot used to care about, way back in the day. Opinions? Thanks! -Boom

26 Comments

MathbalnaseSep 28, 20152 votes

Do you want all of the Teemo darts and Panth spears (/etc.) out there to hit harder, more often and/or from farther away?

Yellow DiamondSep 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do you want all of the Teemo darts and Panth spears (/etc.) out there to hit harder, more often and/or from farther away?

Um, I mean if they became skillshots then I guess it'd be okay if they received a farther range...I'm not really talking about buffing them, just making them skillshots aka dodgeable.

IcyPepperSep 28, 20151 votes

For Pantheon, I'm worried he'll become an AD Nidalee spear chucker.

As for Teemo... I have no idea. I've always justified his Q's existence like it was a modified autoattack on steroids.

MathbalnaseSep 28, 20151 votes

Teemo's Q is not a modified AA, 'on steroids' or otherwise. It is a spell. It does not apply on-hit effects. It does apply on-spell-hit effects.

IcyPepperSep 28, 20151 votes

I know, but he autoattacks on a blowdart.

I'm not saying it is an autoattack, I'm just saying it's like an autoattack. :<

I'll edit it to make my intention clear.

MathbalnaseSep 28, 20152 votes

Sure, and Nidalee in human form AAs by throwing a spear. Her human-form Q also throws a spear. It is not a modified AA.

Cait's AAs fire her gun. Cait's Q, E, and ult all fire her gun in one way or another. None of these are modified AAs.

Need I go on?

IcyPepperSep 28, 20151 votes

Dude, I already admitted my mistake.

Yellow DiamondSep 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

For Pantheon, I'm worried he'll become an AD Nidalee spear chucker.

As for Teemo... I have no idea. I've always justified his Q's existence as a modified autoattack on steroids.

To me, with it's short CD and it's amazing side effect of blindness, it just seems like something that should be a skillshot because you should have to be decent at hitting abilities in order to get the effect that Teemo's dart has now. I understand that hes incredibly squishy but even if it did become a skillshot it would still be rather easy to hit someone basic attacking right in front of you. Just my opinion though xD

bad manner kidSep 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

For Pantheon, I'm worried he'll become an AD Nidalee spear chucker.

As for Teemo... I have no idea. I've always justified his Q's existence like it was a modified autoattack on steroids.

I'd be fine with a small aoe Pantheon spear that went over minions. Just something creative. [Edit: Not like Zilean's bomb "rework" though... wow that was TERRIBLE! ]

Teemo should honestly be totally reworked... he's just got a weird out dated kit that some people love/hate.

Yellow DiamondSep 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=All Chat Referee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z3Ukeoy0,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2015-09-28T03:50:28.900+0000)

I'd be fine with a small aoe Pantheon spear that went over minions. Just something creative. [Edit: Not like Zilean's bomb "rework" though... wow that was TERRIBLE! ]

Teemo should honestly be totally reworked... he's just got a weird out dated kit that some people love/hate.

My problem with Pantheon's spears is that they autocrit, it's kind of a big side-effect for a point-and-click. It's just in my opinion that bigger skills with more and more effects should be a little bit harder to use.

MathbalnaseSep 28, 20152 votes

All else being equal, changing a targeted ability into a skillshot is a definite nerf. Unless you are advocating for every champion that has a targeted ability to be nerfed, then you must acknowledge that these changes will be accompanied by compensatory buffs. Usually, that would be in the form of damage/CD/range.

This isn't a matter of 'talking about buffing them', this is a matter of you talking about nerfing a massive group of champions, without ever mentioning their state of balance, let alone making a reasonable argument that they (all of them) deserve nerfs.

Yellow DiamondSep 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

All else being equal, changing a targeted ability into a skillshot is a definite nerf. Unless you are advocating for every champion that has a targeted ability to be nerfed, then you must acknowledge that these changes will be accompanied by compensatory buffs. Usually, that would be in the form of damage/CD/range.

This isn't a matter of 'talking about buffing them', this is a matter of you talking about nerfing a massive group of champions, without ever mentioning their state of balance, let alone making a reasonable argument that they (all of them) deserve nerfs.

Nerf? I don't believe so. In cases like this champs can adjust quite easily. Zilean went from placing bomb after bomb without anyone being able to do anything to a higher skill level champion with more play-creating ability. I realize that his bombs did get a buff to them, the stun and all, but that doesn't mean that some champions who need them wouldn't get them. This is all hypothetical, I never said buffs or nerfs in them I just wanted to know what other people would think about it.

For example if Teemo got his dart to a skillshot he would be able to kill those with little amounts of health because his range would possibly be increased. Also if someone else with high poking abilities is his lane partner, he would be able to safely cs cannon minions, granted they aren't behind other minions, and other minions if need be from a safe distance.

And with the state of balance we can definitely say that some, Teemo and Panth, have incredibly high poking potential through a point-and-click. Op? Not necessarily, but definitely stronger than a lot of other point-an-clicks.

Finally I clearly stated that in this hypothetical situation that it would be the point-an-clicks that made sense, not every single one, but doable ones.

MathbalnaseSep 28, 20153 votes

You 'never said nerfs', but what you suggest, unless accompanied by other changes, would be a nerf to anyone subjected to it.

Yellow DiamondSep 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You 'never said nerfs', but what you suggest, unless accompanied by other changes, would be a nerf to anyone subjected to it.

Learning how to use a skillshot isn't a nerf in my opinion.

I can why you think so, those champs can no longer hit through minions to poke, but champs like Nid still manage without a point and click. And they could also just be like Olaf's axe or Shy's flame and go through minions that way, they'd still be able to poke and clear through waves but it would at least be dodge able. Obviously those who can't function with skillshots are bad at champs like Nid, but if this hypothetical situation happened I feel as if people would just have to be more careful with skillshots, which doesn't induce a nerf to it. Having to play smarter isn't a nerf, it's adaptation.

MathbalnaseSep 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

it would at least be dodge able.

This. Right here. This is how you tell that it is a nerf. Playing smarter is an adaptation. Having to play smarter to gain the same benefit is a nerf.

Angry MonsterSep 28, 20153 votes

You need to lol king the people you are trying to have a serious conversation with. He is a unranked player that ONLY plays range skill skill shot champs. He has no actual understanding of the game out side of my champs have to do X so everyone else should.

The fact he says that it is not a nerf, shows his understanding level and mechanics of the game.

You tried but you are better off talking to a rock than this guy.

MathbalnaseSep 28, 20151 votes

I am an unranked player who plays mostly skillshot-reliant ranged champs.

Angry MonsterSep 28, 20151 votes

the difference is mostly and only.

and according to your lolking you play both sorta equally

MathbalnaseSep 28, 20151 votes

I actually just lolking'ed myself for, I think, the first time. Currently visible in my match history:

Cass (skillshot reliant to enable her Es) Heim (skillshots for 2/3rds of his kit or more depending on how you count those turret lasers) Veig (skillshots are 3/4ths of his kit) Brand x2 (skillshots are half or more of his kit) WW (point-click melee that I do not particularly enjoy, but tolerate sometimes in ARAM when I don't have a reroll to spare) Lux (almost entirely skillshots) Ahri (everything other than her AA is either a skillshot, positioning-based ai-targeted, or both) Siv (yeah, she's a 'marksman', but...dat Q) Cait (see above, plus traps and dash)

I say 'mostly' because when I'm not playing a skillshot-based mid or support, I'm probably playing an ADC, but even the ADCs I prefer are ones that heavily feature skillshots.

Yellow DiamondSep 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z3Ukeoy0,comment-id=000000000001000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-28T04:24:30.632+0000)

You need to lol king the people you are trying to have a serious conversation with. He is a unranked player that ONLY plays range skill skill shot champs. He has no actual understanding of the game out side of my champs have to do X so everyone else should.

The fact he says that it is not a nerf, shows his understanding level and mechanics of the game.

You tried but you are better off talking to a rock than this guy.

It's really funny because I played Teemo and Panth for like a year, but I guess that doesn't matter since my recent match history is skillshots champions.

What I can say though is that since I have played Teemo, old Ryze, Lb, etc that their point and clicks aren't that high on the skill bar. While I don't think that you having to learn how to use a skills shot isn't a nerf it doesn't mean that all point and clicks becoming skills shots means nerfs or buffs.

But I can't expect you to understand that since you're the type of person who comes to a hypothetical post and only insults people. I'd rather talk to a rock than try to talk to you.

"Obviously doesn't understand mechanics" <------- he himself doesn't talk about any mechanics afterwards.

LaserDeathBladeSep 28, 20151 votes

Game much better without point and click.

It's not just about raising the skill floor of the game, it's also about improving balance by making matchups based more off of champion mechanics rather than straight numbers which are incredibly hard to balance. For example old Ryze was oppressive AF but when Riot attempted to balance him they missed 'balanced' and dropped him straight to virtually unplayable because no matter how they tweaked his base stats, he'd just be OP in some matchups and UP in others because his kit was so binary.

Not that I think new Ryze is the epitome of balance, but he now has a much larger range of stats that fall within 'balance' because he's outplayable which means he's not going to completely shit on any particular matchup as long as the other guy dodges a few skill shots

The Sword SaintSep 28, 20151 votes

Don't confuse skillshots for automatic counterplay. Often the counter to a highly mobile champion happens to be a point and click spell. For example, vi's ult is tailor made to be reliable even against mobile champions with a lot of peel... and yet if all spells were targeted you'd have a hard time avoiding the ball of stats problem.

That's why the game needs both targeted and skillshot abilities, a mixture of reliable and unreliable spells make for a dynamic and interesting interaction between champions and team comps.

RalanrSep 28, 20151 votes

Ryze is mostly point and click.

Personally I hope Pantheon's spear stays point and click. Seeing it travel to meet its target is awesome. But his W shouldn't be point and click.

Warning ShotSep 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ryze is mostly point and click.

Personally I hope Pantheon's spear stays point and click. Seeing it travel to meet its target is awesome. But his W shouldn't be point and click.

if it wasnt point and click pantheon now has a dash, congrats, you made an immobile champ mobile.

RalanrSep 28, 20151 votes

Well he is part assassin, a class known for mobility.