http://i.imgur.com/PUQFMXh.png
If how to get Dark Form is confusing, you just need to Fuse Water and Fire or Fuse Earth and Air Also if you can't read some of the lighter names the names of all the forms are (going clockwise) Fire, Magma, Earth, Mystic, Water, Ice, Air, Storm. and at the Center is Dark
Pyrophilia6 votesExcept they're fucking calling it 'Nature' as opposed to 'Earth' for some esoteric reason...
The Letter H26 votesBecause it includes plants and not just rocks, dirt and other earth.
Pyrophilia10 votesFirst off, this doesn't matter, because plants, grass, trees etc. have historically been used to visualise the element 'earth' archetype ABUNDANTLY in all sorts of media. So having leaves etc. and still calling it 'earth' is perfectly fine from a concept/archetype standpoint.
Second of all, even if that were not the case, the correct choice in terms of archetype design would still be to use earth colours, maybe scrap the leaves and STILL call it 'earth'.
Nature is NOT an element. Nature is composed of all four elements. End of story.
Skins Project6 votes"all 4 elements" Wat? >_> you realize theres like 115 elements. Also water isn't an element. Earth is a category, Air isn't an element. And guess FIRE ISN'T AND ELEMENT >:D Like if you wnna be very literal, at least don't say 4 elements.
Pyrokineticmage2 votes[deleted]
Pyrophilia4 votesLiterally this. How are people this ignorant? But hey, as long as we're rushing to downvote, right?
Photos of Ghosts3 votesAristotle was wrong, no need to keep abusing the name "element" exactly in the way he did. It wasn't "philosophy" in the ignorant meaning of the term, aka using weird words to mean something else. It was trying to explain the world, in a mix of physical and metaphysical explanations. Science didn't exist back then.
Pyrokineticmage1 votes[deleted]
Kynami1 votesYou would have had every Yasuo and his cousin screaming about how windwall should block it because it very clearly had projectiles.
Pyrophilia1 votesI mean surely you're not abusing a term if you're using it in the meaning with which it was COINED? And surely someone can't be abusing a term THEY THEMSELVES came up with?
Photos of Ghosts2 votesAnything that is fantasy and pretends to be true is abuse.
Pyrophilia2 votesIf so (and I have absolutely no intention of getting into it since this is a discussion and not a poetry reading), he was still free to assign whichever meaning he wanted to HIS OWN term. When you form an entire school of thought, you'll be free to do the same.
Photos of Ghosts2 votesHe was talking about THE ACTUAL WORLD, which doesn't work like that. He invented things that don't exist. Also, he didn't create the LATIN word element, nor the greek στοιχεῖον (stikheion) which meant "element of a row/ensemble/group" BEFORE the pseudophysical meaning. Also, the 4 elements thing was invented by Empedocles, not Aristotle.
TeCoolMage4 votesSure. Because Aristotle is the arbiter as to how every element system should be defined.
TheHappyReaperz2 votesYou realize Aristotle believed that earth was a representation of dirt/rocks.
BLACK REALM GOD3 voteselements can describe lots of things things. the elements from the periodic table - which is based on chemistry - and then there are the metaphysical elements that are used in a lot of spiritual religious practices. there are more types of elements but the word element means something at its purest form. the elements referred to by lux's skin are the metaphysical elements and they vary a lot. some people say that there are 4 elements some say that there are 16.
Pyrophilia1 votesTier 2 forms, however, quite clearly feature the basic, uncombined elements. It's not hard to work out what they should be, since there are sources aplenty.
BLACK REALM GOD2 votesumm... there is no "what they should be". the tier two elements are riot's interpretation of what prismatic light would be in base form. so you're wrong. if riot says it's nature then guess what? it's nature. it's their art. their philosophy. their world.
you're just imposing your own views on someone else's art. there are philosophies that describe the metaphysical elements as yin and yang and only yin and yang and there are probably several times more people familiar with yin and yang as opposed to the 4 elements of fire water earth and air.
there are also philosophies that include both earth and nature as a basic element.
as well as philosophies that choose nature over earth
and philosophies that exclude both.
you're making an argument based on an assumption that you've made based on the knowledge that you have about a subject that is personal in design on an idea that is greater than man. it is inherently flawed from beginning to end. you lack culture and an open mind. you need guidance for you cant accept the ideas of others.
TeCoolMage3 votesNature is NOT an element. Nature is composed of all four elements. End of story.
Oh wow so your arbitrary system is somehow better than Riot's arbitrary system.
Also, I've seen more examples of plants being used to represent nature. In fact, I've seen the word 'Gaea' describe plants more than 'Earth'
Pyrophilia4 votesIt's not 'my' system. It's an age-old archetype system that they chose to use, but fucked it up. The part that you quoted is LITERALLY a summary of the classical Greek natural world framework. The four elements archetype is ancient and clearly set.
It's like saying, oh so the four elements are air, fire, water and universe. It does NOT make sense.
TeCoolMage4 votesIt's not 'my' system.
It's your system.
It's an age-old archetype system that they chose to use, but fucked it up.
Nope, at no point does Riot say, "This lux skin is going to be based on Warden of Ionia's idea of the elements he got off Avatar: Legend of Aang".
The part that you quoted is LITERALLY a summary of the classical Greek natural world framework.
So it's not 'Earth', it's 'Gaea' (which is actually a completely different thing)
The four elements archetype is ancient and clearly set.
I see 10 elements in this one, so I don't understand why your arbitrary 4 element system applies.
It's like saying, oh so the four elements are air, fire, water and universe. It does NOT make sense.
Saying the four elements are air, fire, water and earth also doesn't make sense. They're completely incomparable objects. Why isn't sound an element? Why are there only four elements?
Pyrophilia5 votesYou are babbling now. Where the hell do you think the cartoon got the idea? I will repeat it once again for your benefit: these archetypes are ancient and were established by ancient Greek philosophers and scientists as a way of conceptualising and framing the world. This is a verifiable cultural fact and it's cultural legacy, and it has always been earth, air, fire and water. IT IS NOT MY SYSTEM.
The minute Riot chose to name the skin 'Elementalist' and included 3 out of 4 classical elements as tier 2 forms (the basic, non-combined elements/forms), they were basing it off the ancient archetypes whether they stated so or not.
The tier 2 and tier 3 forms are NOT the same nor should be regarded as such. Tier 3 are more original ideas by Riot that they whipped up as element COMBINATIONS, not basic elements themselves. This discussion is not about tier 3.
And yes, saying that the four elements are air, fire, water and earth DOES make sense because THAT'S LITERALLY THE ARCHETYPE and it's existed for well over a MILLENIUM. LMAO.
TeCoolMage4 votesthese archetypes are ancient and were
establishedpresumed by ancient Greek philosophersand scientistsas a way ofconceptualising and framingviewing the world through their overly superstitious and arbitrary beliefs. IT ISNOTMY SYSTEM BECAUSE I RANDOMLY DECIDED IT WAS THE BEST.
The minute Riot chose to name the skin 'Elementalist' and included 3 out of 4 classical elements as tier 2 forms (the basic, non-combined elements/forms), they were basing it off the ancient archetypes whether they stated so or not.
I don't remember 'Elementalist' being a greek word, and I don't remember fire, water and air being words that only greek philosophers can use.
The tier 2 and tier 3 forms are NOT the same nor should be regarded as such. Tier 3 are more original ideas by Riot that they whipped up as element COMBINATIONS, not basic elements themselves. This discussion is not about tier 3.
They're part of the system, and that's not present in yours, therefore they aren't the same.
And yes, saying that the four elements are air, fire, water and earth DOES make sense because THAT'S LITERALLY THE ARCHETYPE and it's existed for well over a MILLENIUM. LMAO.
Oh, so if something has been thought of for over a 'millenium', it suddenly makes sense? Is the earth still flat to you? Do you still believe in pixies and fairies? How has your alchemy been doing these days?
Oh wait, they're made up systems and make as much sense as claiming the world is on a unicorn named rainbow butter sprinkles. They also make as much sense as thinking light evolves into nature, then into mystic.
Pyrophilia4 votesLMAO are you high??? I'm not saying that such classification is scientifically correct fact.
But that IS the archetype. And Greek philosophers LITERALLY coined the word 'element'. So LMAO again, it WAS a Greek word originally. Look it up. [zombie-brand-facepalm]
So when you use 'element' and use 3 out of the 4 that were established in that school of thought, you are UNEQUIVOCALLY referring to that archetype.
And, if you're Riot, then you're also illogically butchering it.
TeCoolMage4 votesAnd, if you're Riot, then you're also illogically butchering it.
And if you're a greek philosopher from back then, you butchered the world to fit illogical ideas. Your point?
But that IS the archetype. And Greek philosophers LITERALLY coined the word 'element'. So LMAO again, it WAS a Greek word originally. Look it up.
Nope, elementum is not element, element is an English word that has roots in the greek word. Elementalist uses a suffix to the English word. Simply because I use the word 'element' doesn't mean it's greek. The periodic table isn't based off of Aristotle's ideas, but they still use the word 'element'.
So when you use 'element' and use 3 out of the 4 that were established in that school of thought, you are UNEQUIVOCALLY referring to that archetype.
Not really, I can use elves in a fantasy book loosely based off Lord of the rings elves, which in turn are based on folklore elves, but it doesn't mean the fantasy book is referring to those extremely different elves.
Likewise, Riot can take 'nature' off something else, or even copy pokemon and say 'grass', using 3 words that appear in hundreds of other texts doesn't make it greek, even if you find the closest match and proceed to spend 9 hours obsessively creating a timeline to the original system.
Pyrophilia2 votes'Elementum' is a Latin word, not Greek. The periodic table IS literally an extension of Aristotle's ideas, since chemical elements compose all matter, much as his four elements composed all of nature supposedly. Again, feel free to look that up, historically speaking. But the point is that the skin's name is a direct lexical clue to what its conceptual source is. This is undeniable.
There's 4 of them together in a tier, they are the basic forms leading to combined ones, and they are copied almost entirely, with one clumsily misnamed. So please, lol. I'm not even sure you yourself are convinced by what you're saying anymore.
Odinakos2 votesAs a greek that admires that era and for a good reason, i am deeply disapointed. Aristotle had some theories without scientific evidence (could not research atomic level that time) and the elements was one of them(ps you forgot the divine element, aether). I would not call it extention but rather total rework of his theory. Correct way of thinking but without evidence.
Dont get me wrong, the classic era greek scientific advancments were one of the most important advancements of humankind, but some were theoretical science which were prone to mistakes without the means to gather the required information. What was pioneering is the empirical researh, aka based on empirical evidence not just theories, and that is what we trully inherited and made humankind evolve.
Pyrophilia2 votesI mean, I don't really care if his theories were correct or not. The point is about reference and inconsistent design with regard to said reference.
Odinakos3 votesGuess what? Its not the point.
First because it was just a general theory and not an established scientific one. That holds zero value now, unlike his revolutionary methods or other more important ones that hold some ground.
Second because similar sets of elements appear in many other cultures even unaffected by ancient Greeks. So it is not a specific reference to him.
And third and most important. It is appealing to authority fallacy. You use his name, one of the most important ancient Greeks, to strengthen your opinion on a silly arguement that it should be earth and not nature. You realize how much wrong it is? And lets not ignore how disrespecting it is towards the Greek culture. I went to the university bearing his name, so cut it out.
Pyrokineticmage2 votes[deleted]
TeCoolMage2 votesAristotle's philosophy of the basic 4 elements is nothing new. And Riot is clearly pulling ideas out of his philosophies.
Why? Because you say so?
Also its considered copyright infringement in society if an idea is even similar to another
Aristotle never made a patent.
Mixing and matching the 4 basic elements to make new elements is exactly the same as Aristotle's idea. It's not just similar, it's exactly the same.
Yeah, he believed that mystic came out of nature and water, didn't he?
Pyrokineticmage2 votes[deleted]
TeCoolMage2 votesAristotle's works are already considered the classics (a lot of them were wrong). So a patent don't even matter. That's like saying Copernicus, Newton, or Galileo didn't patent there ideas so all there work don't belong to them. Any professor will say otherwise.
Doesn't matter if it belongs to them. No patent = no copyright infringement.
Novel writers who are dead eventually have their books become public domain.
These guys weren't even alive for copyright infringements to exist.
Also it's the idea that counts. If the idea is even similar then people would consider it unoriginal.
There's no such thing as an original idea, then. Unless you draw some random line for me then claim it's a completely logical choice
Also, are you trying to bait me with that 'your'?
Your pretty dumb.
Pyrokineticmage1 votes[deleted]
TeCoolMage2 votesClassics = Public Domain (It also means there ideas are widely known)
Therefore no copyright. I can write about Aristotle's ideas in a book and make money off it, but I can't use someone else's if they're still alive and are going to sue.
Pyrokineticmage1 votes[deleted]
TeCoolMage3 votesSo? How does that make the word element suddenly apply only to greek systems of thought? How does it make Riot's own system worse?
Photos of Ghosts1 votesPRECISELY, Democritus was AGAINST the aristotelic elemental approach.
Pyrokineticmage2 votes[deleted]
TeCoolMage3 votesOh wow, as if I care about some dead person's superstitions.
Riot decided to name it nature, therefore it is named nature, I don't care about Aristotle, or whatever made up fairytale he has about elements, stop trying to make it about a fossil somewhere in greece.
Chembaron Yamada2 votesWhat if I tell you that there isn't just one system to categorise elements? Take china for example, their elements are: water, fire, earth, metal and wood. Just because a system is different from yours doesn't make it wrong.
Pyrophilia1 votesOh this I know. But that's clearly not the system Riot is referencing.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesWell, obviously your system isn't the one Riot is referencing to, too. Otherwise there wouldn't be these "logical gaps", right?
Riot created an own elemental order, tied to their region Ionia. Since they created it themselves, you can't claim it's wrong.
Pyrophilia1 votesLol what on earth... what the hell does Ionia have to do with Lux... if that's the case, that's even worse and we can criticise them for clumsy ad hoc lore, too. Oh, dear.
MillForMe2 votesThey are saying that Riot has given Ionia it's own elemental system. So when people in Runeterra refer to the elements, it'll be based off of Ionia's system of elements.
Elementalist Lux has control of elements listed in Ionia's system. That's what the post you're responding to is saying.
