Election for Tribunal Judge here!

DBS Ronovon·Jan 16, 2018·2 votes·1,574 views

The current system for reporting is outdated and needs to be scrapped, so we are going to hold an election for the position of League of Legends Judge of the Summoner Tribunals.

Upon election the new Judge of the Rift will assemble his/her cabinet members who will form the tribunal committee responsible for handling egregious crimes in the Rift.

Forming this committee system will allow banned players to make plea bargain deals with the Tribunal for review of their account, and allow them to be reinstated. We in the League of Legends community believe in Justice, and delivering every one their Just due, without distinction, however we also believe in redemption and giving chances to those who have paid their just due.

Post below if you would like to see this in action, and give a nomination of someone who you think would be fit for such a position. This person can be a Moderator, Herald, or any ordinary member of this forum, but they must win the election, and be subject to moral guidelines fit for administering this type of unbiased judgement.

Judge with wisdom and compassion!

84 Comments

ChermorgJan 16, 201811 votes

The current system for reporting is outdated and needs to be scrapped

I would like to see some expansion on this, as I don't think the current system is outdated and needs scrapped. What exactly are your problems with it?

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

The problems are this:

Reports from all team members on your team will trigger a ban similar to a popular vote, and teammates should not have that kind of power and control over a ban, when they are part of the flame fest.

There is no clear rule or standard for what can and can not be said on the rift, and its left up to interpretation which can be very tricky and difficult to manage fairness.

Lastly there is no appeals system for perma bans, and this to me is unacceptable, given that people pay money, and should be given access to what they paid for. Stripping someone of their purchased items is morally wrong, so Riot should always allow a person have the chance to reinstate their account for behavior infractions. Cheating is a different story, there should be no tolerance for it. [garen-swing]

Jo0oJan 16, 20186 votes

... None of that is true.

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

None of it is true? Please explain. I have personally experienced this, and been told these things from Riot Support.

Jo0oJan 16, 20183 votes

I think Leylania covered it pretty well below.

Additionally, you CAN appeal a perma via a support ticket... it just rarely works. Permas are virtually always straightforward and justified. You get tons of chances before the happen.

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

This is true, you do get many chances, but I assure you, if you get a mass report, you're screwed. Its really unfair.

They will tell you this too: It doesn't matter what other people do or say. How is that fair or just? [sg-janna]

Jo0oJan 16, 20183 votes

Mass reports carry no power that single reports don't already hold. Your assurance doesn't measure up against multiple official statements to the contrary, as well as the body of evidence that these very forums present.

ChermorgJan 16, 20186 votes

Again, mass reports do literally nothing. I will copy from a post I made a while back with all the times Tantram has shown the various code in the IFS throwing out any more than 1 report.

To show you proof that the report system doesn't care how many reports you got, let's look at the guy who wrote the system posting the actual code, in which you can see it just checks "is there at least one report?":

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9VrUtrJo,comment-id=00000000000200000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-27T22:15:01.972+0000)

Yes, every time a game is reported, it is reviewed by the system.

That is why we say only 1 report is needed.

and

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9VrUtrJo,comment-id=0000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-27T18:28:29.209+0000)

Reports haven't lost weight since the instant feedback system was put in place.

It's actually really simple.

if (reports > 0) { review(); }

and

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=t4BNHARj,comment-id=00030000000000000002,timestamp=2017-05-09T20:27:51.768+0000)

4+ reports is the same as 1.

A report, or 9 reports, flag a game for review.

if (reports > 0) { reviewGame(); }

Lastly, regardless of their behavior, your suspension is not based on their behavior, but on yours.

Edit: one more for good measure, this one being him literally taking the exact code from the file and posting it:

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=rIOgTf8s,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-09-20T20:50:23.340+0000)

I've done this before. Let me post the ACTUAL line of code:

if (reportCount > 0) { ... }

It's line 57 of this particular class. I wrote it.

Now that that's over, your point about others actions. It does not matter what other people say or do. The player getting the punishment is the one that pressed the enter button and typed. It is wholly their fault what they said (except in a very limited number of circumstances). They do not get a free pass just because "but mom he started it" or because "but he did it worse". Everyone is held responsible for their own actions, not the actions of others.

ROX PrimeJan 17, 20181 votes

i wouldnt call 3 warning that can come seemingly randomly and (from eperince) 3 to 4 games after the reported game tons. and that fact that you can be pretty toxic for many game and have nothing happen but the moment u get that first chat restriction a simple idiot can get u banned, is not strightforward.

LeylaniaJan 16, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=DBS Ronovon,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=yN11xw04,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-01-16T06:11:41.550+0000)

The problems are this:

Reports from all team members on your team will trigger a ban similar to a popular vote, and teammates should not have that kind of power and control over a ban, when they are part of the flame fest.

Nope that is not true. 9 reports count the same as a single report. If you didn't do anything then you will not get punished.

There is no clear rule or standard for what can and can not be said on the rift, and its left up to interpretation which can be very tricky and difficult to manage fairness.

The Summoners Code is the standart. And in general it's not being an asshole. Also ofc 0 tolerance stuff like sexism, homophobic slurs and racism which will give you an instant 14 day ban.

Lastly there is no appeals system for perma bans, and this to me is unacceptable, given that people pay money, and should be given access to what they paid for. Stripping someone of their purchased items is morally wrong, so Riot should always allow a person have the chance to reinstate their account for behavior infractions. Cheating is a different story, there should be no tolerance for it.

It is called perma ban for a reason, there is no reason to give you another chance if you did actually break the rules. And if you didn't and were banned in error you can always write a support ticket to get it fixed.

It doesn't matter how much money you spend on the game and it is definitly not morally wrong to keep toxic players away from the game and others. If you care so much for the money you did spend then maybe don't break the rules? The ToS state pretty clearly that you will not be refunded any of your money if your account gets banned. Permas are supposed to hurt. If you could just keep going like before without losing anything it wouldn't be a punishment.

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

We clearly disagree.

This is how the report system works based on my inquiry and experience. I've been voted into a ban by a full 9 report vote, and did not deserve it based on what happened. (Debatable)

The Summoners code is too vague, and it leaves too much to interpretation, and there are too many instances of two sided toxicity.

The ToS doesn't override state laws, it never will, and when selling goods or services, there is a consumer standard that must be adhered to, so NO, there should NEVER be a perma ban for breaking the code, its silly. You can't do this to people who pay for products, and you can't do this to people who buy property in the game either.

If I go to the market and buy a sandwich, and I break the rules in the market, they can't kick me out and take my sandwich. Since the stuff people pay for is linked to the account, then they need to either grant access back eventually or pay back the money spent for purchased goods.

In general being an asshole could mean anything, so lets be more specific. Not good enough. [garen-swing]

LeylaniaJan 16, 20183 votes

I absolutly don't care if you think that's how it works or not. Rioters on this board have said multiple times that this is not how the system works. The system doesn't care how many people reported you. 1 report is all that is needed.

What do you mean with two sided toxicity? That more than 1 person is toxic? Because if yes then it doesn't matter. You are responsible for your actions. If someone is toxic towards you then you mute and report him, you don't suddenly have the right to flame back.

Okay dude please stop acting like a basement lawyer, I don't think you know more about the law than the actual lawyers of a multibillion dollar company. And your analogy is quite bad. If you buy a sandwich then it's your property and no one can take it from you. But you do not own your League account or any of the stuff you buy on it. Riot is just allowing you to play on the account, it's still theirs. Therefor they can always take it away from you.

If you write something just ask yourself if you would want to be talked to this way. Unless you are extremly sensible or an asshole yourself it is a pretty good guideline to know what is considered rude.

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

I don't know if you realize your own tone, it being rude with terms like basement lawyer, and saying you don't like or care what I say or think, great.

Riot can own my account all they want, but I didn't rent anything from Riot, I purchased things. If I was told I would be renting a skin for a limited time, I wouldn't have paid for it, plain and simple.

Just remember that if you wish to dish out something in a pompous manner, be ready to receive it in kind.

Don't care if somehow something I said offended you, that's your problem, but you're directly talking to me, so remember that when you want someone to actually communicate with you, keep in mind your own manner of delivery when preaching to others about the very thing you yourself are doing. Draven

LeylaniaJan 16, 20184 votes

I'm just calling out your bullshit. You can not expect to be taken serious if you literally do nothing but making up shit. Not a single thing of what you said was correct. If you get offended by that then suck it up because I still don't care.

Riot can own my account all they want, but I didn't rent anything from Riot, I purchased things.

Nope you didn't. Nothing of what you payed for is yours, as they state in the terms it is a license you buy, so basically a rent.

From the Terms of Use:

4.3. Do I “own” the Virtual Goods I unlock? (No. What you “unlock” is not the virtual good itself, but rather, a qualified right to access it in the Game.) You have no ownership or other property interest in any of the Virtual Goods you unlock, regardless of whether you acquired access to those Virtual Goods using Riot Points, Blue Essence or Hextech Crafting. Virtual Goods have no monetary value. You can’t redeem them for cash. You can’t obtain any refunds for purchasing Riot Points or Virtual Goods, except as expressly permitted by us. You can find our current content refund policy here. We have the right to delete, alter, move, remove, or transfer any and all Game Content—including Virtual Goods—in whole or in part, at any time and for any reason or no reason, with or without notice to you, and with no liability of any kind to you. We don’t provide or guarantee, and expressly disclaim, any value, cash or otherwise, attributed to any data residing on servers we operate or control, including any Game Content attributed to your account. The sale or transfer of your right to access certain Virtual Goods, Blue Essence, Riot Points or Hextech Items may only be conducted via services approved of or provided by us, if any.

Because there are so many idiots like you that think they know it all they even had to put this in capslock into the next paragraph:

4.4. Once again: I don’t own these Virtual Goods? (“No!” shouted all the lawyers.) NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY HEREIN, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU SHALL HAVE NO OWNERSHIP OR OTHER PROPERTY INTEREST IN YOUR ACCOUNT, AND THAT ALL RIGHTS IN AND TO YOUR ACCOUNT ARE AND SHALL FOREVER BE OWNED BY AND INURE TO THE BENEFIT OF RIOT GAMES. YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU HAVE NO CLAIM, RIGHT, TITLE, OWNERSHIP, OR OTHER PROPRIETARY INTEREST IN THE GAME CONTENT THAT YOU UNLOCK OR ACCUMULATE, REGARDLESS OF ANY CONSIDERATION OFFERED OR PAID IN EXCHANGE FOR RIOT POINTS OR VIRTUAL GOODS. FURTHERMORE, RIOT GAMES SHALL NOT BE LIABLE IN ANY MANNER FOR THE DESTRUCTION, DELETION, MODIFICATION, IMPAIRMENT, HACKING, OR ANY OTHER DAMAGE OR LOSS OF ANY KIND CAUSED TO THE GAME CONTENT, VIRTUAL GOODS OR RIOT POINTS, INCLUDING THE DELETION OF GAME CONTENT, VIRTUAL GOODS OR RIOT POINTS UPON THE TERMINATION OR EXPIRATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT.

That basically answers it all.

If I was told I would be renting a skin for a limited time, I wouldn't have paid for it, plain and simple.

Not Riot's fault that you don't read the terms. You were told there that it would be for a limited time.

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

Let me ask you a simple question.

Are terms of service the law?

Let me ask you another question.

Do terms of service override state commerce laws?

Let me know what the answer is please. I'd like to know, since you have all the info, and know it all.

LeylaniaJan 16, 20184 votes

Are you trying to imply that what Riot does is illegal or what?

I did never say that the terms of service are above the law. They aren't.

If you think they are against the law then maybe you should actually say which law you think they are interfering with and how?

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

Okay, you answered my questions, so we agree that ToS are not above actual state laws, which means they hold no gravity when state laws indicate consumer protections and good business practices.

I am not saying Riot is doing anything illegal, what I am saying is that internet commerce is murky water, and we don't know how to deal with it yet given the way games are sold online and played. This is still pretty new stuff considering how long gaming has even been around.

So, I think by having customers, who pay actual money, they are not just allowed to steal back what people paid for just because the terms of service say so. I'm not a lawyer, and neither are you, right? So I am sure we don't know everything about this, but I am familiar with some business law.

The main thing keeping people from going after Riot is their deep pockets, lawyers, and most of the players who get banned are jerk little kids who won't fight it.

If for whatever reason my account does get perma banned, I don't know if paying the Lawyer fees to fight it would be worth the $500-$600 I think I spent on skins. Civil court is kind of expensive.

Well thats all I have to say about it, maybe we will chat again.

[vlad-salute]

LeylaniaJan 16, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=DBS Ronovon,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=yN11xw04,comment-id=0001000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-16T14:41:55.002+0000)

Okay, you answered my questions, so we agree that ToS are not above actual state laws, which means they hold no gravity when state laws indicate consumer protections and good business practices.

Why are you always trying to say that Riot is a shady buisness or have bad consumer protection? You have as much time as you want to read the full terms and no one is forcing you to do anything. You can accept if you want or not. You can spend money on the game if you want or not. If you agree to the terms and break the contract it's not Riot's fault. They warn you about it. Riot is not only very open about the whole banning stuff, they also refund you your money/RP is you accidently bought something and they help to recover falsey banned accounts. That is not what I call bad consumer protection. I don't see where they are breaking any law.

they are not just allowed to steal back what people paid for just because the terms of service say so.

You already used what you payed for, how is that them stealing back money? If you go to a restaurant, eat and pay for your food and then get banned from the location afterwards because you started to insult the waiters do you expect to get your money for the food back? No. Same if you rent an apartment and after a few months they have to throw you out because of your behaviour. Why should you get money back if you already used what you payed for? It's the same thing with buying stuff for RP.

The main thing keeping people from going after Riot is their deep pockets,

You know that the terms of basically every single other company related to virtual goods say the same thing, right? That is not just Riot but everyone else does it aswell and I still don't see what is so bad about it. You rent your goods to other people and if someone breaks the contract you withdraw the right to use the rented thing from them. What is so wrong about that that anyone would want to sue Riot (or any other company) for it?

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

You're saying Riot is shady, not me. I said there are laws that govern good business practices.

You can't buy the game, its free, so they can't actually stop anyone from playing it. What you do buy is the skin for the champs, and when you buy it, you own it, because money was exchanged for it. Now you can go around in circles about technicalities here, but its ownership based on having paid for it. Riot can't just say, "no you can't use the skin anymore, we want it back," right?

You own the password and account name, which gives you access to your account. You also buy Crypto currency called RP Riot Points, and with money involved, it needs to remain secure, and they are restricted by law from taking your account away if you own money in it. If they do take the account away, that is called stealing money.

The reason I point this out is because if they want to pretend they have legal right to your money, they don't.

Does that make sense about the owning your money?

When you purchase RP with a credit card, you own the RP, and Riot by law can't take it from you. If they ban your account and it has RP, they are stealing crypto currency unless they refund you. You might disagree and say its not stealing, but taking something someone purchased is actually stealing, and tos doesn't change that basic fact.

To be fair, I don't think Riot is out to get anyone, they are just dealing with problems and trying to solve them, which isn't always easy. I know they give you lots of chances, and its not like anyone is really risking the aforementioned threat of having stuff you paid for confiscated, so I won't worry about it for now.

I'm just trying to articulate so you understand my point of view.

Let me know if you have any questions about what I am trying to convey.

LeylaniaJan 18, 20181 votes

You can't buy the game, its free, so they can't actually stop anyone from playing it.

Uhm no? They can ban your account, they could ban your IP, they could lock your e-mail adresse (if they know it) so you can't create an account. There are definitly ways to stop people from playing your game, free or not.

What you do buy is the skin for the champs, and when you buy it, you own it, because money was exchanged for it.

I already explained it to you before and the terms are very clear about it aswell, you do NOT own anything of what you buy. If you pay for an apartment do you suddenly own it? No, you just bought the right to use it for the time you pay. It still belongs to the person who owns the house. You do not buy the product you buy a license to use it. Nothing of it belongs to you just because you payed money.

and they are restricted by law from taking your account away if you own money in it.

And again you start with stuff about the law. Please name the exact law that you mean or I conclude that you just made that up. I don't live in the US but I never heard about a law that says anything about this at all.

When you purchase RP with a credit card, you own the RP, and Riot by law can't take it from you.

Same thing, you do not own the RP and tell me which law exactly. This is getting ridiculous.

Imperial PandaaJan 18, 20182 votes

The lease for your skins expire when you lose your account.

4.3. Do I “own” the Virtual Goods I unlock? (No. What you “unlock” is not the virtual good itself, but rather, a qualified right to access it in the Game.) You have no ownership or other property interest in any of the Virtual Goods you unlock, regardless of whether you acquired access to those Virtual Goods using Riot Points, Blue Essence or Hextech Crafting. Virtual Goods have no monetary value. You can’t redeem them for cash. You can’t obtain any refunds for purchasing Riot Points or Virtual Goods, except as expressly permitted by us. You can find our current content refund policy here.

We have the right to delete, alter, move, remove, or transfer any and all Game Content—including Virtual Goods—in whole or in part, at any time and for any reason or no reason, with or without notice to you, and with no liability of any kind to you. We don’t provide or guarantee, and expressly disclaim, any value, cash or otherwise, attributed to any data residing on servers we operate or control, including any Game Content attributed to your account. The sale or transfer of your right to access certain Virtual Goods, Blue Essence, Riot Points or Hextech Items may only be conducted via services approved of or provided by us, if any.

4.4. Once again: I don’t own these Virtual Goods? (“No!” shouted all the lawyers.) NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY HEREIN, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU SHALL HAVE NO OWNERSHIP OR OTHER PROPERTY INTEREST IN YOUR ACCOUNT, AND THAT ALL RIGHTS IN AND TO YOUR ACCOUNT ARE AND SHALL FOREVER BE OWNED BY AND INURE TO THE BENEFIT OF RIOT GAMES. YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU HAVE NO CLAIM, RIGHT, TITLE, OWNERSHIP, OR OTHER PROPRIETARY INTEREST IN THE GAME CONTENT THAT YOU UNLOCK OR ACCUMULATE, REGARDLESS OF ANY CONSIDERATION OFFERED OR PAID IN EXCHANGE FOR RIOT POINTS OR VIRTUAL GOODS. FURTHERMORE, RIOT GAMES SHALL NOT BE LIABLE IN ANY MANNER FOR THE DESTRUCTION, DELETION, MODIFICATION, IMPAIRMENT, HACKING, OR ANY OTHER DAMAGE OR LOSS OF ANY KIND CAUSED TO THE GAME CONTENT, VIRTUAL GOODS OR RIOT POINTS, INCLUDING THE DELETION OF GAME CONTENT, VIRTUAL GOODS OR RIOT POINTS UPON THE TERMINATION OR EXPIRATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT.

And for as far as it going to courts/legal matters.

What Should Companies Do?

Applying the Second Circuit’s decision to website Terms of Use and other online agreements, to maximize their likelihood of enforceability, companies should ideally:

.1. provide clear and conspicuous notice of all terms;

.2. require counterparties to scroll through to the bottom of the terms and then type in their name in a signature box, click an “I Agree” button or otherwise expressly and actively manifest their assent to the terms;

.3. prohibit any use of the website or commencement of the relevant services prior to such express and active manifestation of assent; and

.4. periodically have counterparties reconfirm their agreement to the terms.

So... Yes, Terms of Use are enforceable in court. In some cases you can fight it, but if most meet at the minimum the four listed items; it probably won't work for you

Icy Hot ShotoJan 18, 20182 votes

If you buy an apartment, you can still get kicked out.

You're in an apartment building. If you get so loud/obnoxious/annoying/disruptful to the point others are complaining because they're unable to do anything, you will be told to leave. You will be evicted. You will lose that apartment and have to move. Same thing can happen to a house, too, depending on where you live.

Same with almost anything you buy, really. When you pay for your license, you will lose it if you refuse to follow driving rules and laws.

Or, if you buy a building and turn it into a restaurant. If you fail to clean, to cook food properly, or to follow any and all health codes, you will lose that building and your right to own any other restaurants.

Just because you own something, doesn't mean you can keep it even when breaking laws. And laws are rules.

LeylaniaJan 18, 20181 votes

That is exactly what I meant with my example, thanks for making it more clear for him to understand ^.^

LeylaniaJan 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=DBS Ronovon,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=yN11xw04,comment-id=00010000000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-18T06:00:06.195+0000)

Riot can lock my E-mail account? Really?

Read again. I said they could make it that you can not use an e-mail adresse of yourself to create an account.

Do I own an apartment if I buy it, yes, that’s what happens if you buy it, also if you have a permanent lease and don’t own it, you have permanent rights to it, thus the term permanent smart guy.

Maybe my wording was not correct (?) but that is not how it works, not in the US and not anywhere else. If someone owns a house/apartment complex with multiple apartments then you do not suddenly own the one apartment you are paying for. You are renting it, it still belongs to the person who owns the apartment complex.

If you are living in a Nation and are oppressed, then call for help from Big Daddy USA to come rescue you from whatever “shithole” you’re in, but there is no guarantee on that. Or you could move to the US but make sure if you do, you get a green card and do it right or when that Visa expires, you’ll be removed under the new Trump administration, or are you going to tell me I need to be a lawyer to understand that as well?

Lmao I love how you went from acting all polite to getting all angry, racist and trying to bash me because I'm not from the US. I'm from Germany btw, so much to me coming from a shithole. Ofc I do not know how everything works in the US that's exactly why I asked if you could tell me what law exactly is about the stuff you were talking about. But the fact that you get all defensive and angry over it (and still did not say which law) tells me that I was completly right that you made that up. There is no law like that. And btw most countries of the world would be very happy if Big Daddy USA would start minding his own buisness instead of invading everyone to bring them some rounds of freedom and democracy that normally ends in destruction and chaos.

Okay I don’t “own” the RP, show where it says in the US State laws that a business doesn’t have to provide reasonable conditions for customers when buying and selling things.

How about you show me first where it states that it should for this case in particular? You have to prove that something is in one way or another not the other way around. And afterall you are the one who is so sure about this anyway. I also still don't see how the conditions that Riot does provide are not reasonable. Renting is a completly normal and legit thing to do.

LeylaniaJan 18, 20181 votes

Are you sure you wanted to write that to me? Would be more useful to the OP unless I have misunderstood something about your comment

ChermorgJan 16, 20188 votes

Per Rioters coming and posting the exact code of the IFS, one report is the same as 9. There is no "x number of reports=instant ban". That is simply not a thing.
There is a clear rule - don't be an asshat to your teammates. If you aren't an asshat, and you try to be a nice teammate, you probably won't ever reach a ban (maybe a chat restriction every blue moon).
There is an appeal system - but only if the ban was in error. Players already had at least one, usually three chances to reinstate their account and keep it active. They chose to continue behaving poorly, after being explicitly told there was no more chances and that next time would be permanent. They deserve no sympathy nor concession.

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

I don't know man, I was trolled pretty hard before my last ban. Now you say there is no x number of reports, but lets say I played with someone who trolled and trash talked me, and I responded appropriately, we lost the game. The very next game I went against the same guy who was on my team from before, whom had reported me. People on my team trash talked me again, but out of spite, I beat the guy from the previous game, and while we played he rallied my own team to report vote against me, and voila after that win I was banned instantly!

Don't know how exactly this is fair, but it happened. Being an asshat isn't a good rule, because the fundamental problem that the game has chat in it. The game has a flaw and allows players to jap at each other openly with words. It would be no different if there was a built in voice client, I just played a game with people in Discord and they were total asshats in voice and being jerks in the chat. I didn't even report because its not going to effect anything.

Ultimately this system is unfair, and if you read what I said about consumer protections, no one who pays for stuff in game should be unforgivably perma banned. Its not right taking people's money if you can just ban them. [garen-swing]

ChermorgJan 16, 20186 votes

This is going to depend greatly on how you responded. If you responded with toxicity, you were rightfully banned. No other players behavior can justify you being negative/toxic.
The game has chat in it, but it is not to allow players to jap at each other. It is to allow players to communicate about the game. When a player interferes with this by using chat to abuse others, bring down team morale, or do other negative things, it is not okay.
I read what you said. It doesn't make any sense though. If you go to a store, try stealing something, get kicked out, do it again, get kicked out, then on the third time they call the police and you're ordered to never set foot in the store again, that's not unacceptable. Even if you had a membership to the store. Even if you gave them 1000 dollars. Businesses have the right to remove anyone who is misusing their services. Riot does not permanently ban players out of the blue - they give multiple warnings to a player. If a player still chooses to not reform, Riot would be doing a disservice to all the players who play appropriately if they allowed the player to keep playing just because they spent money.

ROX PrimeJan 17, 20182 votes

your second point is almost completely false cause pro players (in a pro game) dont use chat they have mics, high level challenjors dont use chat, many will even tell u to mute all at the start as a "tip" on how to get better so yea no, and your third point is flawed cause he never misused the stores service so its false correlation, no one is on the boards saying "i got my account banned cause i tried to scam people, rito is unfair"

ChermorgJan 17, 20182 votes

The second point is completely true. The chat is not the mandatory method of communication, but its sole purpose is communication about the game. There is no other authorized use of the chat, and while minor offenses (such as off topic discussion about sports ant the like) is looked over like it's nothing, when a player starts to be negative it ceases to be glossed over.

I do not understand your issue with the third point. Businesses have every right to remove someone misusing their service and causing trouble for other clients. Riot gives people chances to improve before removing them for misbehavior. That is their right - and you agree to that whenever you sign up and install the client.

ROX PrimeJan 18, 20182 votes

Im not saying the chat was not "created" for that purpose but thats not what its used for and riot can tell you first hand about creating something for a reason and have it not work intended, not that they would ever admit it.

at gamestop u have 7 days to return a used game, which u can trade for money back or another game of equal or lesser value, but this can only be done once,(if the clerk checks the receipt) if u then take that game back or try to then you are misusing service. simply stealing or vandalizing a business does not constitute service misuse. all im saying is if u gonna defend riot have a legit argument not this false correlation bull shit.

DBS RonovonJan 19, 20181 votes

I can reluctantly agree based on my understanding of how it works, and I've learned to just shut up.
Also agree with this, people are jerks, and it tilts the team. Also, Riot's problem for allowing the internet unfiltered into their game without a great solution.
I think the store analogy is a bad one because players who are toxic aren't stealing, they are just being mean or going off on someone for trolling, feeding, or sucking at the game. Allowing them to come back isn't doing a disservice to the players who play appropriately because League is known for having the most toxic gaming community on the planet, so it's baloney to say you're hurting the already big group of jerks that play the game. Hacking in a sense is stealing, and people should be banned for sure, account closed, end of story.

General Esdeath Jan 19, 20182 votes

It's so outdated we're gonna put the old system back into place!

Jo0oJan 16, 20185 votes

Hang on. Is this an exercise, or are you actually serious?

I mean, I could think of a few names to throw in, but ultimately I think there's a good reason for the Tribunal being shut down, because in many ways it was a precursor to the current IFS.

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

I am serious, and would like to see a new Judge and Tribunal committee so we can have a more human element to this system of justice. If this really is a community of people, then we should have a say in how it is ran, yes?

Jo0oJan 16, 20185 votes

Sure, but the standards that IFS judges by are based off of data accumulated from the community, much of which was provided from the old Tribunal.

It's not like Tantram went on a peyote bender and wrote a bunch of random rules with the help of a talking dog over a long weekend. The rules actually came from the community.

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

Don't you think there are enough people not happy with the way it is? I sure see a lot of complaints about it both on the forums, and from people I know personally. Its time for a change.

ChermorgJan 16, 20186 votes

Complaints from people who have been "wrongfully" punished, yet have the support of the community for their punishments in the comments? Most threads here end up with the community here agreeing that their punishment was just.

The complainers are generally those who feel they have a "right" to abuse others in a video game, which they don't.

DBS RonovonJan 16, 20181 votes

I don't see it as them having a right to abuse people, if they break the rules or deviate from the code, then they should get some kind of penalty, but what and when?

How far do they have to take it?

What exactly decides when they get a chat ban or general ban? It's not clear, and there are usually two sides to every story.

What they do have a right to is access to purchased online goods. Taking people's skins away for breaking online rules is silly to me. If you don't think I have a good point, that is fine, but morally I think what I am saying is correct in the world of consumer protections.

People have the freedom to say whatever they want, so its kind of like we are on big boy rules when we play, if you can't take it, don't dish it out. But at the same time, enter at your own risk, I heard League was the most toxic gaming environment know to man before I even started, and here I am.

What would work for punitive action and decision making on this in my opinion is this.

If there is a game report, and both parties were guilty of flaming, being asshats, etc... then there should be no action taken, because justice is weighed on a scale, is it not?

If we punish every player for everything they do wrong, that won't work, because remember this is a game, and why push for more things that aren't fun? Doesn't make sense. I know that no matter what I do or say, the punitive system will remain in place, so I am willing to put in my two cents on how to improve upon it. If it changes and improves, great. If not, I will likely not be subject to its wrath, but still feel for those who are, even if they were being asshats.

[sg-ezreal]

Umbral RegentJan 16, 20182 votes

because remember this is a game, and why push for more things that aren't fun? Doesn't make sense.

...You say, as you push for enabling toxic asshats to bring their entire team down.

Two wrongs don't cancel each other out - they're both breaking the rules, and they're both ruining the game for 3+ people. They both deserve to be given punishment. No metaphor about "justice being weighed on a scale" will change this - because if they're both in the wrong, they're both on the same side of the scale. How are you going to justify things being so out of whack?

What they do have a right to is access to purchased online goods. Taking people's skins away for breaking online rules is silly to me. If you don't think I have a good point, that is fine, but morally I think what I am saying is correct in the world of consumer protections.

Misguided morals don't overwrite hard-stated rules. Riot's ToS literally tells you, you don't own shit. You have access to Riot's shit, which they can revoke at any given time should they feel it necessary. This means you're paying for access to Riot's content, which Riot has the full right to revoke - and they seldom do, only doing so in the case that someone is belligerently ignoring the rules they set out for them.

Umbral RegentJan 16, 20181 votes

I'm honestly a little curious as to who you would vote for in terms of judges - were this an exercise, anyway.

Since I know no such iteration of the Tribunal will be made, I'd say in the hypothetical scenario, you and Imperial Pandaa would be my two community votes, and as for Forum Moderators - Prandine, Chermorg, and The Djinn. (no particular order).

Imperial PandaaJan 16, 20181 votes

I tried finding a blush sticker but the closest I really saw was [sg-jinx] and I consider this more of a "You will notice me one day, Senpai, I'll make sure of it." type.

I don't think this would be good for a large scale situation; but if it was for a specific section, like ID bans, then it could be interesting to have some sort of community input without necessarily having bias.

LeylaniaJan 16, 20185 votes

How is the current system outdated?

Forming this committee system will allow banned players to make plea bargain deals with the Tribunal for review of their account, and allow them to be reinstated. We in the League of Legends community believe in Justice, and delivering every one their Just due, without distinction, however we also believe in redemption and giving chances to those who have paid their just due.

Why am I not surprised that this had to come up as the only argument. You didn't even mention once that you would want a Tribunal to get toxic players banned. And that should always be the main reason to have it in the first place.

Basically you fucked up, got banned and now want the Tribunal back because the Support already told you that your account is gone. Am I right?

ROX PrimeJan 17, 20181 votes

Dude u have a post u wrote this same day saying rioters never lie (basiclly) wtf is this shit? it seems like you have no morals or principles you just defend riot no matter what regardless of how wrong they are.

LeylaniaJan 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=ROX Prime,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=yN11xw04,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-01-17T23:53:42.454+0000)

Dude u have a post u wrote this same day saying rioters never lie (basiclly) wtf is this shit? it seems like you have no morals or principles you just defend riot no matter what regardless of how wrong they are.

Uhm what lol. I never said Riot is never lying or anything like that

J4 Ulted MexicoJan 16, 20183 votes

As we know, democracy fixes all problems. Let the people vote! PEACE, LAND, AND BREAD!

EvilDustManJan 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

As we know, democracy fixes all problems. Let the vote! PEACE, LAND, AND BREAD!

Yea, we would never vote for someone with nothing but wrong information and who says they represent us, but doesn't.

Hahahoho

Sobsobsobsob.

Timethief49Jan 16, 20182 votes

Sir I'd like you to judge These 100000 reportcases today, thank you. Our system works Fine but this guy with his tinfoil hat says otherwise. Yes we have provided him with information and Posts from rioters but you know, the tinfoil hat.

ROX PrimeJan 17, 20182 votes

You realize your argument is just "riot said it so its correct?" which is not an argument. no one cares you can copy pasta try to use brain and come up with an independent thought. BTW how is battlefront 2 cause im almost positive you support EA