Is Riot Being Insensitive To The Needs of the Those Who Suffer From PBA?

Troll Armada··1 votes·1,381 views

Mood Incongruence disorders might be responsible for a significant percentage of what is insensitively labeled as "toxic" behavior.

PBA also known as the Pseudobulbar affect is characterized by:

Pseudobulbar affect (PBA), emotional lability, labile affect, or emotional incontinence refers to a neurologic disorder characterized by involuntary ~~~~crying or uncontrollable episodes of crying and/or laughing, or other emotional displays.[1] PBA occurs secondary to a neurologic disease or brain injury. Patients may find themselves crying uncontrollably at something that is only moderately sad, being unable to stop themselves for several minutes. Episodes may also be mood-incongruent: a patient might laugh uncontrollably when angry or frustrated, for example."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudobulbar_affect

If you've had your account banned, I encourage you to take this test to find out if perhaps the reasons for your behavior is not your fault: https://www.pbafacts.com/pba-assessment

Let's educated Riot about PBA, so that they can respond in a more sensitive matter to this serious illness.

52 Comments

Skadeglädje6 votes

To the OP: are you educated in the field of neuropsychology or is this something you found onWikipedia? Emotional dysregulation caused by neurological dysfunction, such as this specific ICD-diagnosis, is a real thing. We could have a real discussion about it. But we would need to do so on sound theoretical grounds, not internet speculation.

My short opinion is that a company such as Riot can never account for (a very small fraction of a given population) people with actual brain injury (whether it's TBI or dementia or something else) and that this responsibility has to fall on the clinician working with the patient. I would also question whether most people with said disorder are able to enjoy league, considering the expected comorbidity.

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

Ah, the reason for their anger doesn't matter to the people they hurt. If they are literally unable to control their responses then they should do something to prevent themselves from using chat (such as ticketing for a permanent chat ban, unbinding the enter button, or not playing using random matchmaking).

Troll Armada1 votes

Maybe those players could have a special icon, such as a tiny handicapped logo like this: ♿ ...to the left of their name in chat so that other players know that they suffer from a disorder and do not take what they say seriously?

SmokedAlmonds2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:05:36.443+0000)

Maybe those players could have a special icon, such as a tiny handicapped logo like this: ♿ ...to the left of their name in chat so that other players know that they suffer from a disorder and do not take what they say seriously?

That is probably more likely to draw negative attention than anything else. I also don't think any kind of thing like that is going to change people not wanting to listen to them. If anything like nami mentioned it would just permanently remove their chat.

Troll Armada1 votes

Well, that would be an option for those players. Just like a handicap tag can be displayed or taken down by a handicapped driver.

Deep Terror Nami2 votes

I automatically assume people that flame excessively are handicapped already.

DIRU3 votes

do you honestly think people will not insult them just for the logo?

Troll Armada1 votes

I think you misunderstood me.

The people who are handicapped are folks who might rage in response to a player leaving a turret to go wander around the map, when what they really wanted to do was encourage the wanderer to go back to cover their turret in an emotionally supportive manner.

The player might feel bad about his uncontrollable outburst and get reported for it unjustly. The icon would notify other players that this summoner is not fully in control of his verbal actions.

DIRU3 votes

"please dodge he has a logo"

SmokedAlmonds3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:23:59.914+0000)

I think you misunderstood me.

The people who are handicapped are folks who might rage in response to a player leaving a turret to go wander around the map, when what they really wanted to do was encourage the wanderer to go back to cover their turret in an emotionally supportive manner.

The player might feel bad about his uncontrollable outburst and get reported for it unjustly. The icon would notify other players that this summoner is not fully in control of his verbal actions.

That wouldn't be unjust, disorder or not. If they can't control themselves they need to take steps for themselves, not expect others to put up with it.

How would you even draw that line? What is going to determine someones ability to get that benefit?

Raw2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:05:36.443+0000)

Maybe those players could have a special icon, such as a tiny handicapped logo like this: ♿ ...to the left of their name in chat so that other players know that they suffer from a disorder and do not take what they say seriously?

Iol an icon of freedom to be an assole to everyone in game. One of the best troll thread in awhile. http://www.auplod.com/u/uopadl6d63e.png

Maximum Morde3 votes

It's irrelevant the reasons for inappropriate actions. I don't care if you have over 9000 mental disorders, I still don't want to play with you if you act like an asshole.

PIMPSMOOTH2 votes

Educate the parents of the petulant players who refuse to reform and end up perma banned about PBA.

Troll Armada1 votes

If you go to this web site, you can receive a free PBA facts kit:

https://www.pbafacts.com/

Perhaps the player needs medication or was simply coming down from a weekend of molly. I don't know, but I feel like it's serious medical issue and should be addressed.

SmokedAlmonds3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:00:25.187+0000)

If you go to this web site, you can receive a free PBA facts kit.

Perhaps the player needs medication or was simply coming down from a weekend of molly. I don't know, but I feel like it's serious medical issue and should be addressed.

Maybe it needs to be addressed but I don't really see what this has to do with riot. This would be each person's responsibility to seek out any help they need and I really don't see where riot would fit into that equation.

Troll Armada1 votes

I totally understand your point of view. However, if a player's emotional outbursts are not his or her fault, then surely you can't expect Riot to simply group those players in with the people who purposefully say hurtful things?

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:10:35.394+0000)

I totally understand your point of you. However, if a player's emotional outbursts are not his or her fault, then surely you can't expect Riot to simply group those players in with the people who purposefully say hurtful things?

Well people who say hurtful things get punished regardless. So I still don't see anything for riot to do here. And realistically, how common is this disorder?

Troll Armada1 votes

Like any sport, League of Legends players are at a higher risk of a number of potential injuries and disorders, such as Deep Vein Thrombosis and carpal tunnel syndrome.

Jubbinaut1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:51:09.338+0000)

Like any sport, League of Legends players are at a higher risk of a number of potential injuries and disorders, such as Deep Vein Thrombosis and carpal tunnel syndrome.

First, that doesn't answer his question. Second, do you have a citation for this claim?

Troll Armada1 votes

Of course I do:

Extensive Deep Vein Thrombosis Following Prolonged Gaming ('Gamer's Thrombosis') http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/814258

Jubbinaut3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T07:33:39.640+0000)

Of course I do:

Extensive Deep Vein Thrombosis Following Prolonged Gaming ('Gamer's Thrombosis') http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/814258

Great! Now, can you explain how that's relevant to SmokedAlmonds' point? Or even to the discussion in general? Because it still feels very much like a non-sequitur to me.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:51:09.338+0000)

Like any sport, League of Legends players are at a higher risk of a number of potential injuries and disorders, such as Deep Vein Thrombosis and carpal tunnel syndrome.

Even assuming all of this is true that would be still be on the individuals to take care of all those things themselves.

You wouldn't goto the NFL over a high school player's injury.

Awkward Couch4 votes

The problem I have with, well everything in this post is it doesn't seem that PBA is more of a symptom of other diseases.

Conditions or injuries that PBA can occur in include: Alzheimer’s disease or other dementias, Stroke, Traumatic brain injury (TBI), Multiple sclerosis (MS), Parkinson’s disease, and Lou Gehrig’s disease (ALS).

In the wording of this and other articles I read on the subject, make it seem to me that PBA is a symptom of other diseses. Not to say that people with things like MS couldn't play League, it's just unlikely.

It could happen with Traumatic brain injury, but even that number would be minimal. According to the website that you provided, around 2 million people suffer from PBA. Now let's break down who would be playing League with the diseases mentioned above. Dementias: not likely to play League. Stroke: possible, but very few. TBI: I think this would be the majority of this group that would play League. MS: depending on how far along it is, so some but again not a lot. Parkinson's, very few if any. ALS, again probably a few. In the end when you break down the numbers, you're talking about maybe a several thousand cases. Possibly 100,000 cases if we are being generous?

Now unfortunately we don't have more recent or specific data on the number of League players. The most reagent information I could find was here. http://www.riotgames.com/articles/20121015/138/league-legends-growth-spells-bad-news-teemo

In 2012 there were 32 million active users in the LOL community world wide. If we say that 1 million people who play this game have PBA, that would still be about 3% of the player base.

In the end we are talking about a fraction of the community, and yes it is a serious disease, but really this isn't Riot's problem.

The other problem I have with the link that you provided us is that these episodes last from seconds to minutes. League games often take 40 plus minutes, especially in lower elo's. But the site that you linked described the episodes as being brief, 40 even 30 minutes isn't a brief episode. Also the site says that people are happy or crying, not necessarily angry. While anger may be included in this range of symptoms, I find it odd that you would include that when the research that you give us doesn't mention it.

While I agree with you, a player's outbursts may not be their own fault, I think what they choose to do is their responsibility. Doing things like, if you are getting emotional, walking away from the game for a while, or just unbinding the enter key so the player can't chat, that I hold the responsibility to the player. I suffered for years from severe depression, and I would notice myself getting upset and responding very emotionally. I would get very angry or very sad, at that point I had to walk away from the game for a couple of hours or I knew I would say something that would get myself banned. I think it also gives practice for the real world. While a boss may be sympathetic at first, eventually one has to recognize that their responses are not appropriate and eventually will get fired. Eventually everyone has to own up to how they act, and if they can't do it, they will eventually have to face the consequences.

Troll Armada1 votes

The other problem I have with the link that you provided us is that these episodes last from seconds to minutes. League games often take 40 plus minutes, especially in lower elo's. But the site that you linked described the episodes as being brief, 40 even 30 minutes isn't a brief episode.

The episodes are brief, but during a triggering even such as playing league dozens can happen throughout that 20-40 minute period.

Awkward Couch2 votes

Fair. But you still ignore the two main points of my thesis. Point one being how rare it would be to encounter one of these players. It is highly unlikely people with ALS or Parkinson's would play this game in the first place, and then have to have PBA, and then still play League. Again we are talking about a super rare set of circumstances.

Second, you negate the fact that I still hold the player responsible. If these episodes are becoming frequent, then step away from the game. If these episodes are caused by League, then that person needs to drop League all together. Yes they may find League enjoyable, but if it's at the cost of their health or even their money, it's not important.

Troll Armada1 votes

I believe that this might just be the tip of the iceberg.

When people play league, I hypothesize that they are entering a trance like state, similar to those of the Native American Witch Doctors or Himalayan Yogis.

In this trance like state players are open to suggestion. Summoners, literally might be hypnotized into being toxic against their will.

Jubbinaut2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T09:35:28.238+0000)

In this trance like state players are open to suggestion. Summoners, literally might be hypnotized into being toxic against their will.

If that's the case, why do most players have no problem avoiding toxicity? The vast majority of players are consistently positive or neutral, after all.

Troll Armada1 votes

Some folks are more open to suggestion than others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnotic_susceptibility

_Individuals of extremely high hypnotizability tend to have distinctive characteristics outside of hypnosis. In 1981, Sherl Wilson and T X Barber reported that most of a group of extremely high hypnotizables who they termed "fantasizers". The fantasizers exhibited a cluster of traits consisting of: _

    1. fantasizing much of the time,
    1. reporting their imagery was as vivid as real perceptions,
    1. having physical responses to their imagery,
    1. having an earlier than average age for first childhood memory,
    1. recalling "imaginary playmates" from childhood, and
    1. having grown up with parents who encouraged imaginative play.

_[3] In 1991, Deirdre Barrett examined a larger group of extremely high hypnotizables and confirmed that about 60% fit Barber and Wilson's characterization of fantasizers while 40% were what she termed "dissociaters" who: _

    1. experienced daydreaming mostly as "spacing out" and not remembering what had been going on
  1. for periods of time,
    1. had later than average ages for first memories, and
    1. had parents who had been harshly punitive and/or who had experienced other childhood traumas. Fantasizers tended to experience hypnosis as being much like other imaginative activities while dissociaters reported it was unlike anything they'd ever experienced.
  2. [4] Individuals with dissociative identity disorder have the highest hypnotizability of any clinical group, followed by those with posttraumatic stress disorder.[5][6][7]
BladeSteel2 votes

Don't feed the troll bruh. Look at his name, then at the nonsense he is spewing.

PIMPSMOOTH1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T09:35:28.238+0000)

I believe that this might just be the tip of the iceberg.

When people play league, I hypothesize that they are entering a trance like state, similar to those of the Native American Witch Doctors or Himalayan Yogis.

In this trance like state players are open to suggestion. Summoners, literally might be hypnotized into being toxic against their will.

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x346/Saphia_Mayo/gifs/tumblr_m7xbuuTZT51r23joco4_250_zpsecbb7e85.gif

PIMPSMOOTH2 votes

I have to admit I'm surprised how many people actually took the OP's troll bait.

EvilDustMan2 votes

HIS NAME IS TROLL ARMADA, GUYS.

Koonta Kintae2 votes

Dat bait

Korillo2 votes

Troll thread is troll

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

What exactly would you want identifying these people to accomplish? Like what is the concern. That other toxic people have a more significant effect on them, they should have more leniency in what they are allowed to do, or what?

Troll Armada1 votes

Well first of all, it would be an option given to those special needs players, so that they could turn it on or off.

If another player gets insulted by something that they wrote, they would simply look to the left of their summoner name and see this icon: ♿

and they would realize that this person has a disorder and doesn't mean what they are saying, that way won't get offended or feel compelled to take their lives, etc.

SmokedAlmonds5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:29:20.626+0000)

Well first of all, it would be an option given to those special needs players, so that they could turn it on or off.

If another player gets insulted by something that they wrote, they would simply look to the left of their summoner name and see this icon: ♿

and they would realize that this person has a disorder and doesn't mean what they are saying, that way won't get offended or feel compelled to take their lives, etc.

So if its opt in/out what would stop say a generic asshole from just saying he has this to get leniency? And what requirement would there be for everyone to actually take their disorder into consideration?

I still feel like the only thing you could do with the information that someone has PBA is permanently mute them.

Troll Armada1 votes

What kind of person would do that? I mean is this even realistic? Who would want a handicapped logo next to their name which absolves them of any guilt associated with their uncontrollable verbal outbursts?

It could simply given as an option to all players. It seems very unlikely that anyone would lie and dishonestly place a handicapped logo next to their name, but if that is really a concern, then perhaps a doctors note can be required.

SmokedAlmonds4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:36:42.443+0000)

What kind of person would do that? I mean is this even realistic? Who would want a handicapped logo next to their name which absolves them of any guilt associated with their uncontrollable verbal outbursts?

It could simply given as an option to all players. It seems very unlikely that anyone would lie and dishonestly place a handicapped logo next to their name, but if that is really a concern, then perhaps a doctors note can be required.

Someone who wants to avoid getting reported for the things they say. There is not even the tiniest doubt in my mind that this would be used by those people to attempt to avoid punishment. Its not even a question of if to me, its just how many.

Troll Armada1 votes

Isn't lowering the number of reports the goal here?

SmokedAlmonds6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T06:48:19.782+0000)

Isn't lowering the number of reports the goal here?

Reducing the number of people misbehaving is the goal and that would reduce the number of reports as a side effect. I don't think reducing reports in and of itself is a goal at all.

Samus721 votes

So, is the OP suggesting that those who display the symptoms of this disorder be exempt from the rules?

If not, what are you asking of Riot here?

Troll Armada1 votes

Are you saying that mentally insane people should be held accountable for their actions even thought they are not completely in control of those actions?

Awkward Couch2 votes

That's not even close to a fair comparison. You are talking about mentally insane people compared to a person who has a momentary outburst of emotion. One is permanent, the other is not.

Troll Armada1 votes

I don't think that the length of time is relevant here. During that time period you are literally not in control of your actions or behavior towards others.

Once you regain the use of your higher thought processes and are able to overrule autonomic processes, all that you can do is apologize, but sometimes this isn't enough, and people still might report them.

Awkward Couch1 votes

Again you miss the entire premise of the entire second point of my argument. Once you are, for lack of a better word, lucid from PBA, do something about it. If League becomes a trigger, stay away from the game. Length is absolutely important in this conversation because mentally insane people are typically not lucid what so ever. People with PBA are, and then are able to take steps to prevent it. They can unbind the enter key so the cannot chat, they can stay away from League.

Troll Armada1 votes

I'm not sure if you live in America or not, but in the United States, the Americans With Disabilities Act states that companies must make reasonable accommodations for the disabled. Why should people with mental disabilities be excluded from playing league?

Samus723 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Armada,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=lY9ryMfU,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T10:14:38.113+0000)

I'm not sure if you live in America or not, but in the United States, the Americans With Disabilities Act states that companies must make reasonable accommodations for the disabled. Why should people with mental disabilities be excluded from playing league?

The ADA does not apply to online video games. It applies to public services and employers. Now, if Riot holds a tournament in Chicago and a player is in a wheelchair, Riot will have to add ramps and such when the player in question requests it. But if the player is at their own residence, Riot is not required to do anything. Using the ADA does not apply here.

Awkward Couch3 votes

Samus72 beat me to the punch.

What is Americans with Disabilities Act?American with Disabilities Act (ADA), enforced by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), is a federal law designed to prohibit discrimination against any “qualified individual with a disability” in all aspects of employment, including hiring, promotions, discharge, training, and benefits of employment. Under the ADA, employers are only required to provide reasonable accommodations for functional limitation that are due to a disabling condition. source

This has to do with employment, not to do with video games. Additionally, if you read my comment, I said not playing League is an option, but not the only one. There are other ways to deal with raging in chat. You can ask for a chat restriction, you can unbind your enter key, you can make it so the chat is so small that you can't see it.

Personal example: I was diagnosed with severe depression. When I would have really bad days, I would flame pretty bad. I did things like, having my friends change the password to my League account so I could only play when I was feeling "ok". I would just not touch the enter key. Instead of typing in chat, I would say things out loud.

There are options with being able to deal with raging in chat. But if League is a trigger for those episodes, I would advise to stay away from the game.

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