Boards›Player Behavior

Do you know why people continut to ask for the old Tribunal, over and over? Because it felt right!

Martensitic··89 votes·3,399 views

Example from my last game:

Flaming draven, calling everyone on the team bad, while feeding, failing and being a moron in general. He DEMANDED jungle camping bot, and the jungler being a teamplayer, does so, because he doesn't want the toxic little moron to tilt. Meanwhile, our top (me) gets destroyed because jungle pressure. Botlane ganks from our jungler have no impact because, well...Draven is bad af. Sure, I report him. Do I get anything out of it? No. You let him ruin hundreds of players experience before you do anything. Am I allowed to say anything? No, because then I am the toxic all of a sudden.

And then you wonder why people are salty. Because of this. Because your system, while it does work, still makes the players feel powerless.

#We want satisfaction for these toxics actions! #We want a system that IMMEDIATELY tells us: "Yes, this guy was a toxic moron, and your report punished him/pushed him closer to a punishment. Good job! Thanks for the help in keeping the community clean!"

You want people to be less salty about toxics? You want people to participate in your system?

#THEN MAKE THE RESULTS OF THE REPORTS VISIBLE TO THEM!

Edit: Sorry for the mistake in the title, I cannot edit it out for some reason. Thanks for your support people!

60 Comments

Moeuguudes24 votes

I think the main issue is that their current automated system doesn't do a good job of giving people insight to their reports.

If someone's being excessively vulgar, rude, racist, abusive, etc etc then the system SHOULD give us immediate response when we report that player, as it's painfully obvious that they deserve to be punished for their actions. Even if it's just one game, that doesn't give the abuser the "ok" to be racist as fuck and tell others to kill themselves.

Things like "KYS" and other obvious slurs and derogatory remarks should be immediate red flags, but the system seems to either take so long to actually process such blatant behavior, or it's only letting players know when the report is the one report that actually results in a punishment (the catalyst/straw that broke the camel's back).

So either the system needs to be looked at again to ensure that it gives players immediate feedback on blatant actions (if a rioter sees this, don't you dare come in here and tell me it fucking does because it doesn't), or the system's process needs to be boosted/reworked to not take so long. I get the age old "well what's offensive to you may not be offensive to others" argument, but when you begin endorsing your game as an esport, you lose rights to that argument. Professional athletes get flagged/carded for the dumbest shit because it's SPORTSMANSHIP. Guess what? Telling the enemy team "git fucked" isn't very sportsmanlike. Do -I- care if the enemy team says that to me? Not at all. It doesn't offend me at all (It's pretty difficult to offend me), but what the individual player thinks shouldn't matter; it's what the definition of sportsmanlike that matters.

Also, old tribunal would result in it taking even longer for punishments to be handed out, I'd imagine. However, I do think that people would get away with less shit. So I think old tribunal would be more effective in punishments/quelling toxicity since the new system does such a poor job at actually punishing toxicity, but it would take significantly longer to see specific players be punished/get feedback on your reports.

Supreme Senpai696 votes

This. The tribune promoted retributive justice, and people would just vote guilty regardless of it the person was or not. It made them feel good and made them feel like they were getting back at the feeders in their own games. The automatic system promotes restorative justice, which focuses on turning toxic people not toxic.

Now, the automated system sucks. Really, really sucks. But it's pretty damn accurate.

Flyinguillotine3 votes

I don't see how the automated system is at all restorative. Or accurate for that matter. It seems to just wait until someone gets over a report threshold and then autobans them.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

That's how its accurate. Since the community decides what is punishable through reports, somebody who is consistently reported deserves to be banned. There are fringe cases where this isn't true, and those are overturned through player support. I just wish it didn't take 3 months to get someone banned :/

Also, it's restorative because it gives you a bazillion warnings. They focus on making the person reform, even if it never works that way, that's the goal

Flyinguillotine1 votes

It's still biased: it's just biased reporting rather than a biased tribunal. Really the question is whether you want things to be fast or slow. Slow is more restorative (the warnings you mentioned) but fast is, well, faster. And I'd rather have someone face consequences early than give them a bunch of warnings while they go around ruining people's games.

Martensitic8 votes

Now, the automated system sucks. Really, really sucks. But it's pretty damn accurate.

Absolutely, and don't get me wrong, I don't want the automated system replaced.

I want the automated system we have today, with the level of feedback that tribunal offered.

AninLegions7772 votes

Don't know about you but toxicity was wayyyyyyyy lower back then. You knew your chat logs would be looked at and you had to be careful what you said. This automated system is bs. No matter now many words are flagged, people will just keep coming up with different ways of being toxic.

High51 votes

Riot moved beyond the Tribunal a long time ago. It became a company focused on $$ and volume. Riot exists in CA, but it really a Chinese company now. They don't care about you anymore than Blizzard cares about a single subscription in WoW. It will never be like it was.

Martensitic3 votes

Riot exists in CA, but it really a Chinese company now.

Actually, its largely a South African company, because Tencent Holdings (the chinese company that owns Riot) largest shareholder (33%) is Naspers, a South-African based media company :D

xelaker10 votes

the automated system is utter garbage

Aatrox Mid 1v56 votes

{quoted}

Example from my last game:

Flaming draven, calling everyone on the team bad, while feeding, failing and being a moron in general. He DEMANDED jungle camping bot, and the jungler being a teamplayer, does so, because he doesn't want the toxic little moron to tilt. Meanwhile, our top (me) gets destroyed because jungle pressure. Botlane ganks from our jungler have no impact because, well...Draven is bad af. Sure, I report him. Do I get anything out of it? No. You let him ruin hundreds of players experience before you do anything. Am I allowed to say anything? No, because then I am the toxic all of a sudden.

And then you wonder why people are salty. Because of this. Because your system, while it does work, still makes the players feel powerless.

#We want satisfaction for these toxics actions! #We want a system that IMMEDIATELY tells us: "Yes, this guy was a toxic moron, and your report punished him/pushed him closer to a punishment. Good job! Thanks for the help in keeping the community clean!"

You want people to be less salty about toxics? You want people to participate in your system?

#THEN MAKE THE RESULTS OF THE REPORTS VISIBLE TO THEM!

Edit: Sorry for the mistake in the title, I cannot edit it out for some reason. Thanks for your support people!

Couldnt agree with you more. I honestly dont even think reporting toxic players does anything anymore

Papa Andrei3 votes

Can confirm.

I play TT ranked so its a very low population base, I see the same guy trolling, raging, flaming for a good 2 weeks in a row, reported him (And others did also) almost after every game. NOthing happened, Even though his name was something like N word Slaya with the clan tag relating to NEo Nazis. Not banned nor notifications of one.

LordBrasca4 votes

Since the system was released only 1 time on my other account i got the notification that the guy was punished. Seriously. I never got banned nor restricted and i play since season 2, i always report just flamers or people trying to instigate a flame intentionally and yet i have to see a "good job! You reported a bad guy!" notification on my main account. Like what the hell? I even reported people with full tears build and intentionally trolling and STILL no insta punishment? What the actual fuck?

Morality Coach3 votes

People call for it over and over again because League of Legends has a lot of overly emotional weirdos wanting vengeance on the toxic weirdos.

All of it is childish, and the removal of the Tribunal was really the removal of a way for weirdos to act out in a negative way.

Someone truly concerned would prefer the Instant Feedback system because it is completely unbiased. People report toxic speech they don't like, the system learns, simple.

Instead of clicking a button on people online and getting this odd rush of negative emotion, consider trying a martial arts class.

I believe that this type of emotion is connected to a feeling of being powerless.

Martensitic6 votes

All of it is childish, and the removal of the Tribunal was really the removal of a way for weirdos to act out in a negative way. Someone truly concerned would prefer the Instant Feedback system because it is completely unbiased.

I agree, and I prefer the new system in terms of response time, non-bias and functionality. Please don't get me wrong, the new system functions much better than the old Tribunal.

BUT: The tribunal gave people interaction and feedback. The new system should as well. That is my only beef with it.

Instead of clicking a button on people online and getting this odd rush of negative emotion, consider trying a martial arts class.

I am doing both Karate and Kendo, and I stil don't like the system as-is.

Morality Coach2 votes

Maybe do a real martial art like Judo or Boxing instead. Karate has a lot of people in it that are living in a fantasy world in regards to their own fighting ability. Then if you get good at it or do really hard Karate like Kyokushin, you still get beat up by boxers anyway and get the same head injuries while they have a better opportunity to make money in prize fighting than you.

Kendo is just rich kids LARPing basically.

Martensitic6 votes

Downtalking other people because you feel insecure about the validity of your own argument doesn't put you in a particularly good light.

If you think I do MA to "beat someone up with it", then you have a very strange concept of a recreational activity. As to self-defense, given my physiology, I defuse and de-escalate most situations of impeding violence just by showing up and asking "Whats the matter here?" while flexing my shoulders.

Morality Coach2 votes

I used to choke out Chuck Norris every day in the 90s when he was learning BJJ easily. Nothing a karate man can say or do can make me feel insecure, lol.

I used to play with the Internet's biggest tough guy meme.

Martensitic5 votes

It has become clear to me that this conversation has run its course, you will just continue to ridicule everything in increasingly absurd attempts at being funny.

I will leave you the last word so you can create the illusion of "winning" for yourself if you are so inclined.

Have an average day.

Morality Coach2 votes

Old Machado academy in Hawthorne, look it up he was there for 10 years and an old man.

The kind of fighting you are into isn't realistic and gives you weird anime emotions, try something more difficult.

Schàdenfreude5 votes

Good job, you proved most of his points about you downtalking him without addressing his arguments.

Remember how you said that the tribunal was childish and negative? Well he completely agreed with you. Except that you, for some reason, refused to address the fact that he wasn't actually saying he wanted the tribunal back. He was complaining about the fact that the current system gives no sort of interaction and therefore makes reports feel powerless. Your response was nothing. It was nothing but a criticism of his practice in martial arts.

Also, I would like to point out the fact that you are level five. No, I'm not trying to insult you in this case, but someone with such little experience would hardly have any knowledge of the game, much less what the system does with reports. Unless I am mistaken and this is a smurf.

It's too bad that although you might be good at martial arts, you certainly aren't great at having casual discussions.

Morality Coach2 votes

Beating up old man Norris doesn't mean you are good at martial arts anyone can do that.

I'm on here Morality Coaching, I'm not here to argue or have discussions.

Papa Andrei5 votes

Heyo, College Psych teacher here,

Consistently beating down other peoples beliefs and opinions while ignoring their valid points is a sign of Egocentrism and also the inability to see from others perspectives is a sign of Narcissism. HIstorically speaking, all people with these traits generally are the worse examples of Morality.

Morality Coach1 votes

His opinion is stupid, Riot pays people 5x what you make and 3 times as smart as you and him to make a better system than what he is proposing. They aren't going to regress to the old system with changes that give free stuff for no reason.

He's on here ranting every day about minor toxic stuff that wouldn't happen if he got his butt out of Silver. He's trying to act like stick fighting will rid him of these baby emotions, lol.

I think you need to go back to college so you can get people that aren't 17 years old to pay you for that stuff, you aren't doing a good job.

Papa Andrei5 votes

Again, immediately downgrading others opinions and thoughts to prove you own on the bounds that your Morality is better than others than you know all is... well its quite like no one has ever told you NO before. No you can not insult people, no you logic is faulty, no trying to make others feel like shit isn't a good thing.

I reccomend an actual adolescent psychologist here so you can begin to improve your behavior.

Morality Coach1 votes

Well I know one thing, my Morality and Morality Coaching service is better than your Junior College level Psychology and is easily Ph.D level.

In terms of Morality you read like an anti bullying pamphlet, except no one is being bullied so you seem irrelevant.

Schàdenfreude1 votes

In terms of general morality, and I'm saying general because almost everyone looking at your comments feels this way (just look at your downvotes, unless of course you are that stupid to believe that everyone else's opinion doesn't matter), you suck.

The end.

Morality Coach1 votes

The less I have in common with your average Silver ELO rager LOL player the better. I lose no sleep over that, lol.

Schàdenfreude1 votes

Calling me silver elo when that account is level 5 lol.

AninLegions7771 votes

It doesn't function "much better". They both have pros and cons. Don't try to state something you don't understand.

Ashe Jungle3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Morality Coach,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZYIYOAZ2,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-15T23:01:18.543+0000)

Someone truly concerned would prefer the Instant Feedback system because it is completely unbiased. People report toxic speech they don't like, the system learns, simple.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/12/10/5-unexpected-sources-of-bias-in-artificial-intelligence/

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Excellent post, thank you for sharing.

Larias3 votes

The old tribunal system was abused quiet a bit. Most people just hit punished and collected their IP.

AninLegions7771 votes

*some

TwitchInMyPants3 votes

As much as the Tribunal was a good thing, it punished more players wrongly than the current system. Though I will say that despite the live system being more accurate, I've never seen "A player you recently reported has been punished. Thank you!" when its supposed to pop up when you report accurately. Like I've seen screenshots of the message but for all I know every game I've had ruined by strangers has gone unpunished and the only times I've had impact on players is hitting pardon/punish.

Like I think adding something like "A player you reported recently recieved many reports and we're investigating now, thank you" would be great even if they didn't get any form of ban. I think any amount of clarity that its worth my time clicking through menus to find the proper report and type the details rather than simply hitting "Play" would make it an easier process.

DarkRitual2 votes

If 9 players report someone in a game, only one of those actually triggers the punishment. Only the triggering report will give the player the notification that punishment was met by the offending player. I've personally seen it a few times.

TwitchInMyPants1 votes

{quoted}

If 9 players report someone in a game, only one of those actually triggers the punishment. Only the triggering report will give the player the notification that punishment was met by the offending player. I've personally seen it a few times.

I understand that it's on a per game basis, though multiple reports with details describing the infraction are available. I don't think that should be changed given how a group of players can easily be toxic to their randoms already, they don't need power there. I mean specifically if they're fucking up a lot of games there needs to be action taken as well as clarity that your reports aren't just going into the void to mean nothing.

AninLegions7771 votes

As much as the Tribunal was a good thing, it punished more players wrongly than the current system

Source?

LEEROY KLEDKINS2 votes

Wasn't the old tribunal system a complete banfest?

I wasn't around during that point in the game but i heard it became a place for people to just ban someone over saying "Easy" and just minor things.

Kingnewgameplus2 votes

Or way back when there were people getting banned just for picking eve.

Papa Andrei1 votes

Singed summoner 6 summoner 11

Martensitic1 votes

Wasn't the old tribunal system a complete banfest?

Yes, but read my opening post carefully...you will see that I do NOT think the tribunal system did a better job at removing toxics that the automated system.

But what it did do better, was provide feedback to people. And that's the one aspect of the tribunal, that we need in todays system.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

I think it gets way exagerrated. There aren't many veterans left, i'm one of them and i was highly active on the tribunal. Every case you received to review has already been reviewed and voted by other players, if the majority was for punishment he/she would receive it. I can't imagine that everyone voted punish on minor stuff like easy because basically everyone could take part in the tribunal and back in the days toxic behaviour was not accepted but how do i said it... people were not so strict against toxic behaviour like it is today. I for example always read all the chatlogs, viewed the context and sometimes even pardoned highly toxic guys who just got hard triggered by his teammates. Sure flaming back the flamer is not a good way but i do think it is different if someone just lost their temper after getting repeatidly triggered or if someone is an toxic ass from the beginning.

AninLegions7771 votes

Well the result was a less toxic environment.

HazyCloud71 votes

Can someone explain what they mean by this automated system people are discussing? Are they talking about the game picking up certain phrases (i.e. kys) in chat and automatically handing out punishments?

DarkRitual2 votes

The system used to college reports, and players who were in good standing could log in and decide if people deserve punishment. (it was never a single player who decided, but the whole who voted for it). It relied heavily on personal bias.

Now there is an automated system that detects certain things, but only looks for things if there was a report on that player.

So you won't get punished for telling someone to "kys" unless someone reports you for it.

Martensitic2 votes

The system used to college reports, and players who were in good standing could log in and decide if people deserve punishment.

Players in good standing? Hardly.

Everyone could participate, the only prerequisite was that you were above lvl 20 and not CURRENTLY under a punishment.

Zedex1 votes

If you report a player and he gets punished via your report, the game will notify you with a pop up that a player you have recently reported has been punished for his/her bad behavior. It doesn't give specifics for whatever reason, but it does let you know, sort of.

Martensitic1 votes

Only if your report was the last that actually triggered a punishment.

That is too little, too infrequent a feedback.

IceKingChernobog1 votes

I miss tribunal because i miss reading the chat logs, those things were so tantalizing.

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