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One last follow-up for the "punished for defending Darius" with video proof of him not inting

mah1foo··15 votes·2,821 views

Hi guys, mah1foo here once again. You might remember me from the "Punished for defending an enemy who was being bullied by his team, Riot advises to not defend him" thread.

I posted a few follow up threads which got mostly bashed down and I was told to gtfo since Tantram already busted me, and he later even showed up to say that he checked the demo and that Darius was indeed inting and that's why I had good KDA: comment 1 and comment 2.

I just saw these comments today, and they're already a week old, thus I'm creating this thread to provide all of you with a YouTube video of the game itself, maybe now everyone can decide for themselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmEpPDtOfLw

He dies a few times on lane in a fair 1v1, then he stops fighting me to not die more (since I can literally dive him at this point) and swaps with mid and bot who stop me from taking the inhi (they even kill me once). He avoids me at all cost to not feed me more, and safe farms as much as he can, only dying once. Also remember that it's in silver elo. He's doing his best. To me it seems like Tantram is straight up lying to avoid bad reputation for the system, I find it very hard to justify saying "literally ran into the OP a few times delivering free kills" from this video.

After a very long support discussion (which they then locked), I no longer know if I my actions can be classified as toxic or not, but I do know that I did what I did for a good cause. Now Tantram is defaming me as a liar (intentionally or not). Unlike he interpreted it, I was not defending the Darius to "more frustrate the enemy team than defend a player being bullied". I have no idea how he came to that conclusion. The Darius played very well on the lane, got no proper help from his team (other than one random failed WW gank), and got verbally shat on by his team, thus I stood up to defend him.

77 Comments

TrulyBland9 votes

Definitely does look like soft trolling to me, for various reasons.

That said, I don't really want to get into specifics there, because it honestly doesn't matter. Whatever Darius did, whatever you said, this simply isn't even remotely what Tantram described. I always hate when people bend the truth to make their point; but a Rioter doing that is just inexcusable.

I really hope he's going to come in here with some really really good explanation (and apology). Otherwise he just lost all the respect I had for him.

mah1foo5 votes

Honestly I don't even see how this is soft trolling. I mean, what could have he done? He's on silver level, he knows if he contests me I can immediately dive him. What should have he done? Contest me 1v1 when I'm taking inhi and die?

TrulyBland6 votes

To clarify: I don't doubt that it didn't look like trolling to you. It's so subtle that I probably wouldn't have reported it if it happened in my game; even in my team. But with the full replay, being able to look very carefully at how his behaviour changes very abruptly in multiple aspects (especially in regards to warding and overextension), it looks like soft trolling to me.

As said, I don't think the specifics matter though, with Tantram's description being so far off reality.

mah1foo4 votes

Right, I see it now, you might be right actually. It could also be just getting demotivated from losing and your team flaming you, so it's harder to focus so well anymore. And on top of all, it all happens after his team already flamed him, they flamed him on laning phase and Tantram claimed his team got demotivated for him trolling, which makes no sense to me. But you're right that his gamestyle changes a little.

o brigid o3 votes

I just watched through this game twice. Now there isn't any proof that this is the game in question, but I'm inclined to believe it is. Darius may have been tilted, which could have affected his performance, but it doesn't even remotely look like he intentionally let anyone kill him. He simply got outclassed in lane and then spent the rest of the game trying to play catch up by farming minions where he could. He might not have jumped into team fights when his team wanted him to, but when I'm that far behind and know I'll for sure die if I jump into a fight I don't think my team should be fighting in the first place... I would have probably avoided the fights like he did, too.

According to Tantram, "What I saw was you cause the enemy player to tilt, who then started to intentionally feed you. They ran past you and into minions many times. This obviously caused frustration on the enemy team"

I didn't ever see him run past you into minions, let alone do it many times. In order to kill him, you had to E at him behind HIS minions, and even flashed at him. You also snuck up on him once through the jungle but him overshoving without vision is stupid, not inting. He tried to fight you as best as he could until he lost his lane. After that he avoided fights and ran from you whenever possible. He wasn't feeding.

If this is truly the game in question, Tantram grievously exaggerated Darius' behavior to make his argument stronger. And that's not okay. __

#Now... All that said... punishments are still given out based on your behavior only. Your punishment is a completely different issue from the exaggerations/lies that Tantram told. And when looking at your punishment, circumstances and other player behaviors don't impact it. It all falls down on YOUR behavior and how you acted technically violates several parts of the summoner's code. I made a pretty thorough response detailing ways your chat log violeted the summoner's code in one of your other threads, and I'll link it here so I don't have to make this comment any longer. If Riot wants to truly stick to this ban, and I'm not the one to say if they should or shouldn't... any violations of the summoner's code are reasons they can use to back up their decision.

I said it in my other comment and I'll say it here. I sympathize because I know you didn't have bad intentions. But just because you have good intentions doesn't mean you didn't contribute to a bad situation. Even without the spammy parts of your chat log, you still eventually threw personal insults at the enemy. I hope that you do keep playing League on a new account if not this one. And going forward, with the summoner's code in mind, I hope you'll be able to avoid any behavior that might get you punished, regardless of your intentions.

I LOVE PUPPYS2 votes

the game is legit. you can find it in his op.gg from 11 days ago. the day before he made his first post about all this

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=mah1foo

Mobile Phone7 votes

Can't say int but major giving up. Tries fighting you the entire lane phase and dies multiple times. Thats fine had a rough start, but after dying multiple times he goes up to hit walks back a few steps and afks for a little bit to type and dies.. Lane is over after that death.

Tp'd mid to get a wave trading 2 towers for that with bot killing you (tryn) after. Then goes straight back to trying to afk push top dying to you again and still farms minions while his team dies defending giving up 2 towers and inhib. Not much happened after that other than trying to help steal drag at 40% hp.

Would i say he is inting, nope.

I will say that he honestly didnt care if he died and/or lost. Especially with the fact he said open top too. If i was his teammate oh yeah i would've said he inted.

mah1foo (all): he might have given up and start trolling mah1foo (all): But he never inted

:/ that means int.

EL HAMSTERO5 votes

he didnt troll either. you can see he stops moving to type a few times because his entire team is accusing him of inting and saying they are going to report him and im sure he is trying to defend himself.

TrulyBland5 votes

Together with the information of Darius stating "open top" (which the OP confirmed), there definitely is a certain level of soft trolling going on when he completely abandons the top lane to teleport-push mid before going bot and pushing that lane, too. Then there are a couple of situations where he simply makes... weird decisions? The dragon pit fight being one notable example of that. There's also a very crass difference in how carefully Darius plays in the first minutes of the game (always warding, for example) vs. how careless he is playing at the last stage (never warding, for example).

Based on this game alone I wouldn't really vote to ban Darius, but I wouldn't really vouch for him either.

EL HAMSTERO4 votes

maybe.

but he says open top because he cant possibly fight tryndamere anymore and he is frustrated. going to a different lane and not trying to 1v1 him anymore is actually the right move imo. he has two turrets down and lane phase is definitely over by that point anyway.

he never stops trying to protect turrets and continues to fight the enemy until the end.

mah1foo2 votes

This so much. He gives up the lane, not the game.

Imperial Pandaa3 votes

Opening any lane is giving up that lane for free to expedite the ending of the game. Unless his team swaps and takes care he gives up the game. Farming other lanes and fighting just prevents from the Leaverbuster for pinging afk.

o brigid o3 votes

His team had the option of covering his lane. He tried to push where he could without feeding Tryndamere anymore. It made literally no sense to sit in top lane and let Tryndamere keep diving him. He was behind. He had to play catch up. He tp'd mid when no one from his team was mid to try and put pressure on the lane. He tried to play the farm game to catch up.

Just because he wasn't making super effective decisions doesn't mean he was trolling. Not being smart at this game is not trolling. Not understanding good macro is not trolling. He did what he could and tried to avoid feeding. He still tried defending turrets and base as well as was possible for being so behind in game and even managed to make a couple good plays... because he was trying. All his actions look like is someone who has been steamrolled in lane and has no clue how to be useful because he'll die in any 1v1 and was getting dived from pretty much the beginning. This "soft trolling" mindset is ridiculous scapegoating for a game gone bad. I have been in Darius' shoes plenty of times. Not knowing what to do with yourself in a losing game and not wanting to keep feeding isn't even close to the same thing as giving up.

"Open top..." (bc I can't hold it alone and no one is helping me so I can't stay to keep dying over and over)

None of his actions change the fact that Riot Tantram completely falsified his account of what happened. Darius never ran past Tryndamere into minions to feed even once, let alone "many times."

None of his actions change the ways OP's chat log and post-game chat violate the Summoner's Code.

To continue debating "soft trolling" is completely beside the issues at hand: 1) OP's punishment & 2) Riot Tantram lying about what happened.

EL HAMSTERO3 votes

exactly right. thank you.

i dont believe he was trolling and he definitely wasnt intentionally feeding. and as you say this is now about riot tantrum and his dishonesty.

Imperial Pandaa1 votes

All I'm looking at is the "Open top" part and why saying it in /All (which is what I'm understanding, but maybe misread) is not just giving up Lane, but the game as well. Be mindful I am assuming the worse intentions for everything since Darius isn't here for his side (at least from what I read thus far).

Yes his team has the choice to defend his lane or swap, however you discuss that in team. If your team doesn't agree with the choice and you decide to go /All "Open Top." you are effectively giving up the game. Either that will being the rest of the enemy team there to fast push or free farm for an already ahead split pushing monster.

One also can't just sit at the fountain after declaring "Open x" because of afk detection. So while I would to believe he cleared/pushed other lanes to avoid Tryn, I'm going to presume the worse that he was merely avoiding getting hit by afk. This includes teamfights.

I am not defending Riot or anything like that, I am simply explaining why I feel saying /All "Open X and giving up lane is the same as giving up the game.

o brigid o2 votes

One also can't just sit at the fountain after declaring "Open x" because of afk detection. So while I would to believe he cleared/pushed other lanes to avoid Tryn, I'm going to presume the worse that he was merely avoiding getting hit by afk. This includes teamfights.

By that logic, avoiding confrontation with enemy champions because you know they will kill you is giving up, instead of trying not to feed? Darius was literally at a point where he could not sit under his own turret and live. Had he not opened the lane, he would have fed more kills. So he gave up the lane. He didn't give up the game. He did everything he could to have a positive impact on the game without feeding. On my team I would have easily preferred he leave lane to farm anywhere else he could instead of continuing to let the dive-happy Tryn keep killing him.

I've seen what trolls who aren't trying to win look like when they avoid the afk timer. They don't try to pressure or defend objectives like Darius did. They completely ignore team fights and run off to a side lane to farm while their team completely loses base. Darius did the exact opposite. To simply look at "open lane" and choose to assume the worst rather than he was having a bad moment and said one sarcastic thing does the player a great disservice.

Even in the Summoner's Code, Riot acknowledges that players have bad games and rough days. When all of his actions contradict the possibility that he gave up the game, condemning him for one sarcastic line of "open lane" is an ignorant response.

As I said, this particular debate detracts from the point of OP's post and as such, this will be my last reply on the matter.

BestPudgeNA2 votes

{quoted}

Can't say int but major giving up. Tries fighting you the entire lane phase and dies multiple times. Thats fine had a rough start, but after dying multiple times he goes up to hit walks back a few steps and afks for a little bit to type and dies.. Lane is over after that death.

Tp'd mid to get a wave trading 2 towers for that with bot killing you (tryn) after. Then goes straight back to trying to afk push top dying to you again and still farms minions while his team dies defending giving up 2 towers and inhib. Not much happened after that other than trying to help steal drag at 40% hp.

Xerath is already going bot, Darius is TPing to the open solo lane, maybe a bad play but far from inting, i'd argue it's actually the correct play since Xerath can waveclear from range and protect the tower and Darius+tower will just die as soon a Tryd has R back up. He can't actually lane against Tryd and he can't actually teamfight their isn't really any options for him to do then try and catch what farm he, their isn't any reason for him to help his team during that rift push because he can't actually do anything meaningful better to catch the side lane XP an hope Xerath, Ashe and Zyra can wave clear. I'd actually argue that Darius played better in this game then most of his team did.

swordofsun6 votes

Starting off by saying my opinion on your ban hasn't changed. You deserved it based on your chat alone, accept that and move on with your life.

As for this replay I think it's a great example of why it's so hard to detect most inting. After watching it I do think he feed you a few kills and was not playing to help his team in all situations. Now whether that was because he was tilted, bad player, or whatever I don't know. I do think when Tantrum said he "ran past the minions" he was potentially referring to the time Darius stood next to the river, past the minion wave, and essentially did nothing to stop you from killing him.

As for Tantrum there are a couple of options:

  1. Tantrum lied and made up things. I'm actually very skeptical about this because Tantrum's reputation is so solid on these boards. I'm not sure why he would throw that away over you. Frankly, you're not worth it.

  2. Tantrum is human, busy, does this in his spare time, and simply made a mistake. Perhaps he watched the wrong game. Perhaps he was skipping ahead to when Darius was killed and missed that Darius would clear a wave and then wait for his wave to catch up, thus looking like he'd run ahead of it.

  3. Tantrum looked at Darius's chat (which he can't share with us) and Darius straight up told his team he was inting and see above regarding just skipping to when Darius died.

I'm leaning towards an honest mistake. Ruining his reputation over you doesn't make sense. You're nothing in the grand scheme of things and Tantrum's reputation is the final word on disputes here. It would be stupid. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it doesn't make any fucking sense.

I'm inclined to believe human err over malicious intent myself. It makes more sense, Occam's Razor and all that.

I LOVE PUPPYS2 votes

i thought of that too. he must have looked at the wrong game. that is the only explanation.

except there are no other games of tryndamere vs darius in mah1foo's history and tantrum apparently was looking at the correct chat for the game.

i really dont see how anyone could watch that game i just watched and honestly believe darius was intentionally feeding. so where does that leave us with occam's razor?

swordofsun2 votes

Until Tantrum weighs in we can only speculate.

But, like I said, there are points where if you just jumped to Darius's death it could look like he was inting or running past the minion wave. In reality Darius was just choosing stupid spots to stand and wait (and maybe type in chat) and not warding, but if you're in a rush I can see not spending a full 25 minutes watching and just skipping to the relevant time stamps.

There's also the possibility of Darius typing to his team that he was inting. We can't know unless Darius allows his chat to be released or someone on his team happens across the conversation, remembers the game, and chimes in.

The simplest and most straightforward answer is still just human err. I can not fathom why Tantrum would throw away all of the good will and trust he's built on these boards over mah1foo. Again, doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it's not a logical thing for anyone to do.

I LOVE PUPPYS3 votes

yeah we will have to see if he addresses it.

i have always trusted and respected riot tantrum too. but thats why this is so interesting!

why do we trust him? on all of these cases it always has been riot tantrum's word against some kid who just got banned. and of course we take the rioter's word. but we have no way to verify it for ourselves.

you assume this is his first time but for all we know he lies on lots of these cases. we have never had evidence one way or the other we just blindly trust him.

for the first time we have solid evidence that we can look at ourselves. and the evidence is pointing strongly towards riot tantrum can not be trusted. if he lied on this case he has probably lied on others.

swordofsun2 votes

The thing no one really argues once Tantrum smites. Which lends credence to him not lying about punishments. If your entire argument is that you got punished for no reason and a Rioter comes in and lies you raise a ruckus about it. Instead people tend to go quiet or argue that "context" is needed. I don't think I've ever seen someone Tantrum smote accuse him of lying.

Which is where his reputation was built. Riot Tantrum comes in, smites, and leaves. The OP quietly slinks off exposed for the things not being shown in the chat logs. Any one of these people could have argued or downloaded their game and uploaded it to Youtube.

Again, not saying that Tantrum hasn't lied before and this is just the first time he's been found out. I am asking why this would be the first time someone presented counter-evidence.

Everybody fucks up sooner or later, no one is perfect, hopefully Tantrum stops by to give his side.

Awf Meta2 votes

Well, counter evidence is very hard to provide in this game. Riot support says "practically any negativity can be punished". Who here among us has never been negative?

mah1foo3 votes

It's even harder when he lies weeks one week after the thread. Maybe this was just unlucky, not saying he's done it before. But still, I'm lucky I still had the demo somewhere, else I wouldn't have been able to prove him wrong.

swordofsun2 votes

Dude, the game in question was on the 10th. It hasn't even been two weeks.

And, honestly, if my entire argument was based on "defending" someone, you bet your ass I would've downloaded that game three seconds after receiving my punishment.

mah1foo1 votes

You're right, I edited it to one week. And when you get chat restricted, first thing you think isn't "oh i download the demo", since chat doesn't show up there.

swordofsun1 votes

No, but probably around my 2 post to the boards I'm downloading everything if I haven't already.

mah1foo1 votes

Which is why I had it here, no? :)

swordofsun2 votes

You can download your game and up load to Youtube.

You can say, "You're lying. Show the post/pre game chat."

You can make 4 separate posts on the PB boards shouting about how Riot banned you and then lied about it.

That's just off the top of my head. The fact that this doesn't happen implies that lying about what happened in a game isn't a standard procedure.

Riot support says "practically any negativity can be punished". Who here among us has never been negative?

Which is exactly why you have to have a history of negativity. Everyone has a bad day. My bad days will take the form of me just DC'ing from the game rather than flaming, but those are few and far between. I'm much more driven by spite and spite dictates that I try to win just to show that asshole flamer that we could. And I mute very quickly rather than sit and read the asshole flamer's flames.

That and being bad enough at the game that I need to concentrate on playing and not chatting means I don't use the chat very often.

So the formula is really player history+severity. One or two bad days won't hurt you unless you decide to rage and perhaps spew hate speech or encouragements to harm.

Awf Meta3 votes

Which is exactly why you have to have a history of negativity. Everyone has a bad day.

Then how is a person supposed to counter Riots claims? If everyone has an instance of negativity in their history, there is no counter argument when Riot decides to punish. Riot will even go so far as to cite things you were not punished for. Example: Falsely punished from game 1? Riot will cite game 2 and uphold their judgement.

My bad days will take the form of me just DC'ing from the game

That is why you would likely not receive punishment.

Also, what people hate about this system. Your team has no recourse for you leaving a game. Whereas, someone saying bad things can easily be muted.

swordofsun2 votes

Then how is a person supposed to counter Riots claims?

Just speaking for myself here. But if I was claiming that I didn't deserve a punishment and someone else with authority came in and lied about what happened, I would then say they were lying and demand that they back up their claim. Even if my record is gone they still have something to back things up with.

That is why you would likely not receive punishment.

I don't rage quit often and haven't at all in over 6 months. My last DC was because I forgot to take smite so my team just went for the remake. Best option there really. Nothing like looking at the loading screen and realizing you have ignite instead of smite.

I did at one point work my way up to a 20 minute Leaver Buster. That really made me rethink my process in how I dealt with assholes in game and made me much more proactive with the mute futures. So, good job Leaver Buster, doing it's job.

Awf Meta3 votes

But if I was claiming that I didn't deserve a punishment and someone else with authority came in and lied about what happened, I would then say they were lying and demand that they back up their claim.

They don't have to lie. You admit yourself everyone has negativity. That is the point. It is impossible to form a defense because everyone has at least one example of negativity.

Which is exactly why you have to have a history of negativity. Everyone has a bad day.

I LOVE PUPPYS3 votes

imagine you were hit with a punishment you don't feel you deserve. when you share the chat logs and tell what happened in the game no one believes you. we have seen it all before.

and then tantram comes on a week later and posts 'oh but you said x in the postgame lobby'. what are you going to say to that? can you remember what you said in a postgame lobby from a week ago? the best defense you are going to have is "I don't remember that at all. it doesn't sound like something I would say"

then your thread gets spammed with people taunting and laughing at you. what can you possibly do? can you even call him a liar? I cant remember what I said in a postgame lobby from yesterday. tantrams word is unfalsifiable.

Yao Lan Fan5 votes

So, Riot Tantrum probably banned hundreds of accounts wrongly lmao.

Vizulix5 votes

People! Read the damn thread before down voting!

mah1foo1 votes

They don't care, they just support Riot on everything. Literally this comment that is purely fact based was -3 at one point, even after me upvoting it. They just downvote everyone who's not supporting Riot. I'm gonna get downvoted, but that's the truth guys.

Edit: Here's an other example. It's ridiculous that this got downvoted.

ModPeriscope4 votes

Yea, this is not what RT described.

I still think this chat restriction was correctly levied, again, because the chat was in all likelihood worsening Darius' game, as well as the post-game chat, which we've only heard about from RT.

I LOVE PUPPYS4 votes

i dont think he is fighting against the chat restriction any more. this is more about riot's horrible handling of the case first saying he should have muted and turned a blind eye to the bullying. and then riot tantrum giving false info to turn us against the guy.

it seems like tantrum looked at the video and completely fabricated intentional feeding to make the punishment seem justified. meanwhile essentially calling the guy a liar.

i would want to prove there was no intentional feeding too under those circumstances. how can we even believe tantrum on the postgame chat? it is hard to imagine someone watching that game and seeing intentional feeding

EvilDustMan3 votes

[{quoted}](name=I LOVE PUPPYS,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=YERNneIq,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-03-21T16:33:40.513+0000)

i dont think he is fighting against the chat restriction any more. this is more about riot's horrible handling of the case first saying he should have muted and turned a blind eye to the bullying. and then riot tantrum giving false info to turn us against the guy.

it seems like tantrum looked at the video and completely fabricated intentional feeding to make the punishment seem justified. meanwhile essentially calling the guy a liar.

i would want to prove there was no intentional feeding too under those circumstances.

I like how there is some sort of horrible conspiracy. When Tantrum has several times gone 'oh, we were wrong, after consideration, we decided to take this back'. Nope, it's a horrible conspiracy.

I LOVE PUPPYS4 votes

what conspiracy? do you know what a conspiracy is? 1 person telling a lie is not it.

tell me any other plausible explanation for riot tantrum telling us the darius ran past tryndamere into minions 'many times'

EvilDustMan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=I LOVE PUPPYS,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=YERNneIq,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-21T16:45:05.006+0000)

what conspiracy? do you know what a conspiracy is? 1 person telling a lie is not it.

tell me any other plausible explanation for riot tantrum telling us the darius ran past tryndamere into minions 'many times'

He glanced at it on lunch break? What reason would he have to lie?

mah1foo2 votes

Tell me, how does "glancing at it" result him into thinking he "became tilted and literally ran into the OP a few times delivering free kills"? Sounds to me like he watched a plenty of it if he saw multiple deaths of Darius.

ModPeriscope2 votes

Maybe he lied because...he didn't want to glance at it on his lunch break? Lol.

Awf Meta3 votes

OP did kill the opponent twice legitimately. Then they became tilted and literally ran into the OP a few times delivering free kills.

Are my eyes bad?

I saw 3 total deaths to tryndamere.

mah1foo2 votes

I love the word literally here. Like, if he said "then they became tilted and died a lot of times to OP", it would be debatable. But he straight out says "he literally ran into OP a few times". Where Tantram, where did he do that?

HalcyonDweller2 votes

So Darius wasn't inting... big whoop? I don't think this was ever the reason for you being punished. People already explained it to you, if you were defending the Darius you would have said one thing and then dropped it. But you kept at it, you kept talking about it and you literally called people morons. Sorry dude, but this post doesn't help your case.

I LOVE PUPPYS4 votes

he doesn't care about the punishment. this post is about riot tantram lying to make him look bad.

and its kind of a big deal. how many others have tried to show us their ban was unfair only to get mocked and shamed when tantram jumps on and writes his "evidence". how many times was this evidence made up?

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Ah so Tantram specifically stated that the Darius was inting.

I'm not confident one way or the other, because the Darius did stand still for a while before getting chased down for that third kill.

That said, if Tantram exaggerated how much the Darius inted then I'm with you.

I LOVE PUPPYS4 votes

yeah tantram wrote "he ran past you to minions many times". pretty clear he was misleading us.

on that 3rd death i believe darius was typing. we know his team was raging at him. sometimes when you are arguing with people you lose track of what is happening around you. but it is hard to know for sure.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

That makes sense, I'd usually be among the first to defend Tantram, but this look pretty bad.

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