(Follow up thread) Riot found my punishment for defending an enemy who was being bullied correct

mah1foo·Mar 12, 2018·123 votes·18,336 views

Hey guys, mah1foo here again. I posted here earlier about Riot punishing me for defending an enemy who was being bullied (contains the full chat logs), and I've since received an update from the support. They found the punishment correct and didn't lift it or restore my honor level:

> Hey there, > > After the investigation we have concluded the fact that you were continuously spamming the chat throughout the game which can create a very disruptive game experience for the players witnessing the chat. > > For future reference, please do bear in mind that we only take into account what you say, as all players are responsible for their own behavior. You don't have to retaliate as you can just mute the toxic players and report them in the post game lobby where they will be audited by the system and punished. I can't comment on other players accounts as I can only discuss each account with its owner, but if you report toxic players they will be audited and issued a punishment if found guilty. > > In the future instead of getting into arguments with players even if you want to defend others its better to mute those players and report them in the post game lobby. > > If you have any other concerns don't hesitate to let me know. > > Player Support Specialist > "Surprise! I'm back"

Luckily for me this was just a chat restriction, but what makes it worrying is the fact that knowing how the 4-step punishment system works, this could've just as well been a permanent ban. The way I see it, talking too much can result into a permanent ban. Not only that, but their policies are what I wouldn't hesitate to call inhumane. They are encouraging me not to defend those who are being bullied, even after a further review from them.

Honestly, I have no words left, the system is legit broken. If they can punish anyone for whatever reason they want and just claim it was "spamming too much", what's the point anymore? And it saddens me that in no way did they acknowledge the fact that I did my best trying to help someone who was being bullied.

Just wanted to let you guys know that this wasn't a mistake, and the chat logs weren't the wrong ones like a few people assumed. Honestly, compared to this, I now wish the logs had been wrong.

Edit: Someone was kind enough to find the game from my history: https://i.imgur.com/h6f38fv.png

A lot of people were saying that it's because I was typing more than playing, but I believe the picture proves that I was doing quite a lot of playing. Most of my typing was done during me running from my own base to their side of the map, since that's where all the action was happening.

300 Comments

RiotRiot TantramMar 12, 2018140 votes

I'd have given you a chat restriction if I was hand reviewing this case (which is what the system gave you).

The enemy top laner said 'open top' and gave you kills, which is not ok. The enemy team said to report top for giving up. Even if they got their attitude together and continued to play, of course a statement like that is going to tilt the team. Then you go on a tirade of chat (64 lines in game) .. and 42 lines in post-game where you stick around to call them morons and wish bans upon them.

Arguing with teammates/enemies is not the purpose of chat. I would have muted you after a few comments. It would have been impossible to coordinate with the team over your chatter.

ChermorgMar 12, 201819 votes

Hopefully you don't mind, but I'm pinning your comment for visibility's sake. If you'd rather it not be pinned shoot me a reply (or unpin it yourself, not sure if you have that button or not).

mah1fooMar 12, 201858 votes

Thanks for your answer! Few things I'd love to have some clarification on though...

The top laner said 'open top' and gives up on the team, which is not ok.

He did indeed say this, but he never gave up though. I was a fed trynd and I could dive him in two seconds, it would be stupid of him to stay top all the time since he got zero help from his team. So he visited mid and tried to farm top as much as he could. He still probably shouldn't have said it, you're right, but I do understand his frustration.

Then they say to report top for giving up. Even if they got their attitude together and continued to play, of course a statement like that is going to tilt the team.

Wait, so you're saying "of course" for them to flame him and announce in all chat to report him because he tilted his team...? How about his team never ganking or helping him, or his jungler giving me early double buff, by your logic does that not justify him being tilted and say "open top"? (remember, he still kept playing)

Then you go on a tirade of chat (64 lines in game) .. and 42 lines in post-game where you stick around to call them morons and wish bans upon them.

So is typing quickly an offense now? Out of 106 lines of messages, I called someone a moron in post game chat, and I hoped that flamers get banned? Yeah, I'm honestly sorry for calling someone moron, but that's about it...

Arguing with teammates is not the purpose of chat. I would have muted you after a few comments. It would have been impossible to coordinate with the team over your chatter.

Oh please, it was a stomp fest and nobody was coordinating anyways, we were basically spawn killing them. I'm sorry if I tried to defend a person's rights against flamers over coming up with extreme strategies about which way we destroy their inhibitors in silver elo (no offense silvers, that's where I'm too).

Like I've mentioned before, I might not have handled it in the best possible method, but the intention was correct.

Edit: While we're at it, you clearly keep post game chat logs, why aren't they visible in the punishment card?

Edit 2: And don't you think it's a bit contradicting that your support team etc. suggest everywhere to use the mute button actively and communicate with pings, yet now you're claiming that my messages distracted communicating strategies in chat? What happened to muting and pings? It's not like I was flaming anyone.

Edit 3: Could I at least see the post game chat?

Umbral RegentMar 13, 201812 votes

So is typing quickly an offense now? Out of 106 lines of messages, I called someone a moron in post game chat, and I hoped that flamers get banned? Yeah, I'm honestly sorry for calling someone moron, but that's about it...

I think it's less of "typing quickly" and more of "typing a lot with the majority of that chat being negative/argumentative/combative".

I might not have handled it in the best possible method, but the intention was correct.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Calling people morons and wishing bans upon them is far from the "best possible method" - and it really isn't there on the list of "good" methods, either.

And as you keep repeating, there's the mute button, anyone who didn't want to listen can mute me.

I know you're not arguing against your punishment, but...Gods. If I had a dollar for every time someone raised that counterargument I'd be able to buy several skins that I want - and probably some I don't.

Those who didn't want to listen probably did mute you, alongside reporting you. Either way, the existence of the mute feature doesn't really excuse bringing negativity into the chat.

Edit: While we're at it, you clearly keep post game chat logs, why aren't they visible in the punishment card?

If I remember correctly, it's something along the lines of, the IFS can't pull from Client-side chat (pre-game, post-game, etc.), even though it can read it. In-game chat seems to be all that it can readily pull when providing evidence for chat-related offenses.

mah1fooMar 13, 201811 votes

I think it's less of "typing quickly" and more of "typing a lot with the majority of that chat being negative/argumentative/combative".

Arguing is normal, people disagree of things. Like I said, I wasn't flaming anyone there.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Calling people morons and wishing bans upon them is far from the "best possible method" - and it really isn't there on the list of "good" methods, either.

Not only was this in the post game lobby after only the flamers remained to discuss with me, so it's irrelevant for my method of defending the victim earlier on in-game, but I also find it normal to wish that flamers get banned. And yes, I already admitted it wasn't the best method.

I know you're not arguing against your punishment, but...Gods. If I had a dollar for every time someone raised that counterargument I'd be able to buy several skins that I want - and probably some I don't.

Yet it's a valid one.

Those who didn't want to listen probably did mute you, alongside reporting you. Either way, the existence of the mute feature doesn't really excuse bringing negativity into the chat.

So what's the problem if they muted me already? I repeat, it's not like I was flaming anyone.

Umbral RegentMar 13, 201810 votes

Gonna have to respond to these out of order, so, pardon in advance.

I know you're not arguing against your punishment, but...Gods. If I had a dollar for every time someone raised that counterargument I'd be able to buy several skins that I want - and probably some I don't.

Yet it's a valid one.

It's a valid counterargument, but a horribly cyclical one. At the end of the day, you could have muted instead of responding - it doesn't matter if anyone else could or did. Since the issue of punishment and behavior all start and end with the person behaving/being punished, it is their choice of muting that matters, not the other players.

Arguing is normal, people disagree of things.

Arguing may be normal, but there isn't a whole lot of room or reason for arguing in the middle of a tense, focus-taxing videogame. Arguments detract from the gameplay, and, while it may not have led to a loss in this case, it very well could in many other cases.

So what's the problem if they muted me already?

The problem is that for them to have chosen to mute you, you'd have already made their play experience worse with your chat. Players should not have to mute one another - that it has to be mentioned that they could have muted you should be a sign that your chat was crossing a line.

Like I said, I wasn't flaming anyone there.

I repeat, it's not like I was flaming anyone.

The more you repeat that you "weren't flaming anyone", the more I'm disinclined to believe it. To pull from Wikipedia, flaming is defined as:

Flaming is a hostile and insulting interaction between persons over the Internet, often involving the use of profanity. It can also be the swapping of insults back and forth or with many people teaming up on a single victim.

And I don't think that calling people morons or wishing for them to be banned is exactly benevolent, so I'd personally say that, yes, you were flaming.

Especially considering that you even admit:

Not only was this in the post game lobby after only the flamers remained to discuss with me, so it's irrelevant for my method of defending the victim earlier on in-game, but I also find it normal to wish that flamers get banned.

You lingered around in the post-game lobby to fight with them even further. Unfortunately for you, that qualifies as flaming. You could have just as easily reported each of them for harassment, not said a word, and been on your way, but you took the extra step and went out of your way to insult and attack them after the match was over and you were the only ones left.

I can get coming to a person's defense (within reason), but really, what you did was just plain low.

mah1fooMar 13, 201810 votes

I'm on mobile so I'll just answer the things I completely disagree on.

At the end of the day, you could have muted instead of responding

As I've explained elsewhere, me muting the flamers does nothing for the victim. I'd rather have him know that he's not alone or wrong.

The problem is that for them to have chosen to mute you, you'd have already made their play experience worse with your chat. Players should not have to mute one another - that it has to be mentioned that they could have muted you should be a sign that your chat was crossing a line.

I mute everyone who speaks foreign languages. Does that mean they should be punished for spamming the chat? No. Same thing here, as long as I don't break the summoner's code, I don't see how "being annoying" or whatever is punishable.

And I don't think that calling people morons or wishing for them to be banned is exactly benevolent, so I'd personally say that, yes, you were flaming.

Ah yes, calling someone a moron is surely flaming. But I never did it in-game. So that can't be the reason for anyone to mute me, right? And same thing for wishing bans on flamers, I don't even know if that can be counted as flaming, but I didn't do it in-game either. So again, surely nobody muted me for flaming.

You lingered around in the post-game lobby to fight with them even further. Unfortunately for you, that qualifies as flaming. You could have just as easily reported each of them for harassment, not said a word, and been on your way, but you took the extra step and went out of your way to insult and attack them after the match was over and you were the only ones left.

Now you're just making nonsense assumptions. I didn't stay to fight or flame anyone, I stayed to explain to people why I believed Darius wasn't trolling, and what really happened on the toplane. Yes, I may have called someone a moron after they went all-in on me, and that was a mistake. But I didn't "take an extra step to insult and attack them", I slipped a bad word in between. I'm sure you would change your mind if the Rioter showed the whole discussion, including what the other guys were saying of me and Darius. Moron is still a relatively nice word :)

I can get coming to a person's defense (within reason), but really, what you did was just plain low.

Yeah, calling someone a moron is extremely low after they wish cancer on you. Well no, honestly I don't remember any exact words, but trust me when I say that "moron" was a mild word. And again, I did the best I could in that situation. I would do it all again, maybe skipping the very last messages of the post game lobby. The darius deserved to be defended.

ModUlanopoMar 13, 201813 votes

Edit 2: And don't you think it's a bit contradicting that your support team etc. suggest everywhere to use the mute button actively and communicate with pings, yet now you're claiming that my messages distracted communicating strategies in chat? What happened to muting and pings? It's not like I was flaming anyone.

That's kinda not the point... or points.

The Mute button is for the people who are being affected. Using it, not using it, sacrificing small animals to it under the light of the full moon, none of these things change the nature of your behavior. We encourage them to MUTE, REPORT, MOVE ON because that's the healthiest thing for them.

I've been scratching my head trying to come up with a good way to explain what went sideways here. I believe you when you say you had good intentions and I will support anyone who chooses to defend against toxicity, as long as they do so in a way that does not also add to toxicity. I think what Tantram is trying to say is that all that chat - all that arguing - can be seen as harassment. In this case, it clearly was, given that you were reported by others in the match. They carried through on the REPORT part of the mantra just as they were supposed to when faced with something they didn't like.

Yeah, it was "only" a 10-game chat restriction, but my experience is that people who ignore the underlying problem that got them that restriction generally end up having more problems. The other players in that match didn't like what you were doing and expressed themselves with the best voice they have. You might want to think about that.

mah1fooMar 13, 201810 votes

as long as they do so in a way that does not also add to toxicity. I think what Tantram is trying to say is that all that chat - all that arguing - can be seen as harassment.

What do you mean by "can be seen as harrashment"? I agree wirh the moron part in the post-game lobby, but other than that I have yet not seen where exactly I broke the summoner code.

In this case, it clearly was, given that you were reported by others in the match.

You surely aren't suggesting that the deciding factor in whether I'm toxic or not is whether people reported me or not? You can't just say "you did something wrong because people reported you, so you deserve to be punished". As far as I recall, I was literally told that I would be reported because I'm trolling by defending Darius. By the same guys who flamed Darius.

The other players in that match didn't like what you were doing and expressed themselves with the best voice they have. You might want to think about that.

The guys were some of the most toxic I've seen, people like that report for the slightest things, maybe I had a noob champion and won because of luck so I deserve to be reported. Again, this means absolutely nothing. It's hard to take the reports seriously when they come in the form of "you fucking idiot are reported for trolling with this noob darius".

ModUlanopoMar 13, 20186 votes

You surely aren't suggesting that the deciding factor in whether I'm toxic or not is whether people reported me or not?

Nope. Not saying deciding factor. Surely you're not saying it's irrelevant, right?

but other than that I have yet not seen where exactly I broke the summoner code.

Exactly. You've decided what you did was justified, so you're unwilling to consider any sort of validity to other people taking exception to your chat.

Arguing with teammates is not the purpose of chat. I would have muted you after a few comments.

Tantram said it. I said it. Other people have said it. Guess we're all wrong, that there simply isn't another perspective beyond yours?

A 10-game chat restriction is the gentlest reminder that you should contemplate your behavior and the ways in which it was inconsistent with the community. I would prefer you thought about it and made some changes, mostly because that would be best for the community and the safety of your account, but ultimately, you gotta do you. Good luck.

mah1fooMar 13, 201813 votes

Nope. Not saying deciding factor. Surely you're not saying it's irrelevant, right?

Indeed I am. A report should trigger the game for a review, but should have zero value on the final judgement. You seem to be suggesting that it should factor in. The fact is, people report each other for things like noob champion or "lucker".

Exactly. You've decided what you did was justified, so you're unwilling to consider any sort of validity to other people taking exception to your chat.

Umh, no, I mean literally nobody has pointed a single message where I broke the code. Was I nice? Probably not. Did I break any rules (prior the moron insult)? No, I don't think so.

Tantram said it. I said it. Other people have said it. Guess we're all wrong, that there simply isn't another perspective beyond yours?

Go read all the messages (I have), by far majority of the people are saying the opposite. Why do you think you're being mostly downvoted? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying your opinion is a lot less popular and surely people shouldn't be punished for not breaking the rules, but doing things against your opinion.

A 10-game chat restriction is the gentlest reminder that you should contemplate your behavior and the ways in which it was inconsistent with the community. I would prefer you thought about it and made some changes, mostly because that would be best for the community and the safety of your account, but ultimately, you gotta do you. Good luck.

As I've said elsewhere, I'll change my way of defending people, this was my first time and I've learned from it, but don't think for one second that I would value my videogame account over real people's mental health. You do you, but I recommend you put people first, rules and games second.

SUPERIORFlavorMar 12, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ExygQgiE,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-03-12T23:18:49.816+0000)

I'd have given you a chat restriction if I was hand reviewing this case (which is what the system gave you).

The top laner said 'open top' and gives up on the team, which is not ok. Then they say to report top for giving up. Even if they got their attitude together and continued to play, of course a statement like that is going to tilt the team. Then you go on a tirade of chat (64 lines in game) .. and 42 lines in post-game where you stick around to call them morons and wish bans upon them.

Arguing with teammates is not the purpose of chat. I would have muted you after a few comments. It would have been impossible to coordinate with the team over your chatter.

I had a feeling something was being left out.

NipsahoyMar 13, 201820 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ExygQgiE,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-03-12T23:18:49.816+0000)

I'd have given you a chat restriction if I was hand reviewing this case (which is what the system gave you).

The top laner said 'open top' and gives up on the team, which is not ok. Then they say to report top for giving up. Even if they got their attitude together and continued to play, of course a statement like that is going to tilt the team. Then you go on a tirade of chat (64 lines in game) .. and 42 lines in post-game where you stick around to call them morons and wish bans upon them.

Arguing with teammates is not the purpose of chat. I would have muted you after a few comments. It would have been impossible to coordinate with the team over your chatter.

So why does he get punished because his teammates can't mute him? I mean how can Riot decide what you can and can't talk about during a game. This feels absolutely asinine imo. This almost feels like it encourages people to bully because now they know if they try to stop it the person trying to stop it will likely be punished instead.

Total EclipseMar 13, 201817 votes

This is extremely wrong. Sometimes at SURFACE LEVEL, two wrongs DO make a right. Example. Killing is WRONG. But if a bad guy is about to kill an innocent little girl, then doing the WRONG thing by KILLING the bad guy is the right thing to do.

Obscuring the chat may TYPICALLY be a bad thing to do. But when people are TRYING TO MAKE OTHERS FEEL BAD. READ THIS SHIT. PEOPLE IN LEAGUE TRY TO MAKE OTHERS FEEL. BAD. OBSCURRING GAME ORIENTED CHAT TO STAND UP FOR SOMEONE IS OK. This game gets toxic, people TRY to make others feel bad, and you dont do anything about it. Correction, you don't do enough about it. Ill say that semi-recently it seems like my number of feedback notices has gone up, slightly. But still toxic people go unpunished, yet this guy gets punished? The system will never be perfect at fixing everything, but this is a waste of resources.

I think this should have simply gone off with a warning, IF ANYTHING. Although I dont think your support team uses "Warnings," which is bad.

PunisherJBYMar 13, 20189 votes

I am so glad i gave up on this game and stopped giving you guys my money. It's sad that you guys play judge and jury without at least looking at a context of the message you have just sent. When i used to play I would do something similar to this guy, i would try and defend people who were being harassed by someone. Whether it was my team or not I would defend them because I thought it was the correct thing to do. however clearly people can be banned for that so it's best to just let people be mocked, bullied, and harassed than to stick up for the little guy. Honestly this is pathetic. And you saying "I WOULD DO THIS" is even more sad because you basically just said "yeah let the poor guy get harassed, and now that he has been harassed for a long time and he said he wants to quit he now he deserves it. You should never have defended him." That's even more pathetic. Instead of allowing people to try and set an example for how the community should be you just did a chat ban for someone who tried to do the right thing. And yeah he probably shouldn't wish bans on them (out-loud). But removing toxic people and creating a better environment is a good thing right? It allows people to enjoy the game they like. Congrats on setting a new example of not sticking up for the little guy.

NOHITDETECTIO2KMar 13, 201817 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ExygQgiE,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-03-12T23:18:49.816+0000)

I'd have given you a chat restriction if I was hand reviewing this case (which is what the system gave you).

The top laner said 'open top' and gives up on the team, which is not ok. Then they say to report top for giving up. Even if they got their attitude together and continued to play, of course a statement like that is going to tilt the team. Then you go on a tirade of chat (64 lines in game) .. and 42 lines in post-game where you stick around to call them morons and wish bans upon them.

Arguing with teammates is not the purpose of chat. I would have muted you after a few comments. It would have been impossible to coordinate with the team over your chatter.

I get what you're saying, but this sounds like typical high school tell a teacher shit. Let a few bad apples just mess everything up, meanwhile the rest of us are to sit quietly, report, and ignore the problem and HOPE a punishment comes through. People who aren't doing shit get irritated too. We don't like constantly dealing with shit heads who get to do and say ridiculous crap on the possibility that they'll get banned. We can outcast these guys all we want ingame, but they're still on the team; its not like we can just remove them completely out of any game. I'm sure there are plenty of Rioters who aren't so even keel, and they'd get as defensive as some of us who are attacked by the initiation caused by someone else.

Restricting this guy is completely unfair. You guys completely ignore the fact that he was initially the victim. The cause of his frustration was triggered by a teammate who purposely went out of their way to ruin the experience of 4, no 9 other players. Imagine you're playing 5v5 basketball. Your teammate keeps missing shots, so he says fuck it, and proceeds to take the only ball and stand out of bounds with the ball. What ya gonna do, go tell somebody, or maybe youre irritated and decide youre gonna take care of that shit yourself. While in League, we can still play 4v5, but the point is that the player completely disrupted the entire flow of the game. 4v5 is for people who think they have shit to prove, when I start this game up, I expect 5v5 start to finish. sometimes tensions get high and we just can't hold it on. I'm lucky not to be restricted yet, but theres been a few times where a teammate would verbally abuse me first, and I've retorted. 95% of the time I can mute, that last 5% I snap out is because I've had to be verbally abused multiple times in back to back games and it comes to a boiling point.

I try to believe that Riot have some sense on behavioral matters in League, but this post just shows me you guys expect us to just sit and get fucked over by other players and wait for you guys to come in like were children or something. While that's the only way to expect punishment, it sucks that ANY damn retort any other player makes towards the idiot can be equally punished. Bring the Tribunal back, get multiple reports from the player base on issues. Because you guys are just too cut and dry on these things.

Awf MetaMar 13, 201843 votes

You fucked up big time Tantram. Instead of doubling down on your bull shit, just admit a mistake was made.

I'd have given you a chat restriction if I was hand reviewing this case (which is what the system gave you).

How about giving a reason? Finish this sentence: "I would have given you a chat restriction if I was hand reviewing this case BECAUSE....."

The top laner said 'open top' and gives up on the team, which is not ok. Then they say to report top for giving up. Even if they got their attitude together and continued to play, of course a statement like that is going to tilt the team.

Who gives a fuck what "the top laner" did? What happened to being responsible for our own actions?

Then you go on a tirade of chat (64 lines in game) ..

Then tell us oh wise and powerful one, how many chat lines is too much? Where in the Summoners Code does it say "don't type too much"?

.. and 42 lines in post-game

There you go counting lines again. Didn't know it was a CRIME to talk "too much", in POST-GAME.

where you stick around to call them morons and wish bans upon them.

How come neither you or support gave this as a reason for punishment?

After the investigation we have concluded the fact that you were continuously spamming the chat throughout the game which can create a very disruptive game experience for the players witnessing the chat.

Was that support quote edited? No where does it even mention insults or report begging. No, both of you explicitly point out "spam" INSTEAD of "verbal abuse".

Arguing with teammates is not the purpose of chat.

Grow some fucking balls. Come right out in the public and say "Arguing will result in being permanently banned from the game. Report any one arguing."

I would have muted you after a few comments.

You fucking coded the system. Your word is gospel. If YOU were there, you could have said "asking for reports is punishable behavior". There, that entire argument is now over. 1 sentence and they would have absolutely no reason to continue "arguing". I don't have to see the enemy chat logs to know the entire argument started with "report darius for intentional feeding".

It would have been impossible to coordinate with the team over your chatter.

Half the chatter was in "all chat". 27 lines of argument were used in "team chat". Game lasted 25 minutes. IMPOSSIBLE to "coordinate"? My ass. What happened to the mute button? It seems to me, if the team muted, they would have NO troubles coordinating. That can't be true though, you said it was fucking IMPOSSIBLE.

You just don't fucking get it do you? Add me in game. I will "soft troll" the shit out of you and NEVER get punished by your robot. Let's see how many games I can completely ruin before you get fed up and say something.

ShadowStar91Mar 13, 201823 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ExygQgiE,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-03-12T23:18:49.816+0000)

Arguing with teammates is not the purpose of chat. I would have muted you after a few comments. It would have been impossible to coordinate with the team over your chatter.

he wasn't arguing with teammates though. he was trying to comfort and help the Darius in the match. he also wasn't spamming but was offering verbal aid and support to a tilted enemy.

Riot, you're telling us to ignore bullying and just let it happen with this kind of response and action. that isn't right and shouldn't be condoned. you should be praising him for being helpful and reaching out to a player that HIS OWN PLAY tilted in the first place. if we just 'mute and report' then we may as well be telling them outright to continue flaming and being toxic. that isn't the right answer

tieger05Mar 13, 201819 votes

But what are you punishing him for? Excessive messages in chat? Firstly, that's not a report criteria post-game, therefore OP's punishment enforces nothing because technically, he did not break a rule. If you think 64 messages in an hour long game is excessive, by all means, add a restriction to how many msges a player can make throughout the whole game.

I understand that Riot will only look at YOUR chatlogs when determining a ban, but some particular cases such as these need to be analysed with everyone else's chatlogs in the game, so that OP's messages are seen in the correct context. Who knows, maybe the person OP was arguing against was making death threats against another player, in which I too would step in and try to resolve the issue. If i can convince the victim to mute the bully, great. If I cant, Im going to step in whether it's punishable or not, because that's the ethical thing to do.

OP is in the right here.

Beacon AcademyMar 13, 20188 votes

Dafuk happened to "actions speak louder than words"???

Darius went against TRYNDAMERE.

A TRYNDAMERE with DOUBLE BUFFS.

Double Buffs that HIS JUNGLER gave to TRYNDAMERE.

He may have said "Open Mid"

But he fed less gold back to the enemy team than WW (Who fucked his lane in the first place)

He warded more than his team with the exception of his support

He was close to keeping up in farm relatively despite the stompfest that happened to him

But I guess he deserves to get bullied.

And anyone who says otherwise (OP) can fuck off according to Riot.

Good Job.

130xMar 13, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ExygQgiE,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-03-12T23:18:49.816+0000)

I'd have given you a chat restriction if I was hand reviewing this case (which is what the system gave you).

The top laner said 'open top' and gives up on the team, which is not ok. Then they say to report top for giving up. Even if they got their attitude together and continued to play, of course a statement like that is going to tilt the team. Then you go on a tirade of chat (64 lines in game) .. and 42 lines in post-game where you stick around to call them morons and wish bans upon them.

Arguing with teammates is not the purpose of chat. I would have muted you after a few comments. It would have been impossible to coordinate with the team over your chatter.

So no cussing of any kind, no berating or belittling, no grouping up and verbally bashing here.

This seriously leaves me wondering, where do you all start and stop this line where you can strip peoples paid accounts away?

After reading this post, I am done with chat all together for fear of punishment. You say 64 lines but I am sure whoever this guy was talking with had even more. Did they all get punished? I doubt it. So this again leaves things even more unclear.

It legit appears to me that Riot has started using this as a way to make money. A ban for this, communication, light argument, discussion, whatever you can logically label it as. The guy had a 7kda so he was not negatively impacting gameplay in any way that could not be dealt with at any time, by anyone in game(mute). And his words are not bad enough to be labeled as toxic. He legit was defending someone from some actual toxic people.

And last, I know I used the word ban when it is a chat restriction. What happens if he gets a few more? Yep, ban. So this, tho it is his first unjustified offense, could have just as easily been his final one. This is a serious issue. I for one do not want to put money into a buisness that just bans accounts and steals customers money on whims.

I for one am not putting another penny into this game until all this is clarified. I do not need my $500 account being stolen by you all because I communicated.

I Eat ĄssMar 12, 201852 votes

I'll get downvoted for this, but it isn't your job to defend people online and deal out your own form of justice.

If they can't handle the internet they can mute or get off. Flaming a person flaming is still flaming.

Bring on the downvotes

mah1fooMar 12, 201833 votes

Let's assume for a second that you're right and it's not my job to defend the weak from bullies, which already is a bold assumption to make. Does that make the punishment any more correct? Did I honestly break any rules, am I not allowed to talk a lot? I was still playing and basically solo carried the game, so that can't be the reason.

Like I mentioned in the earlier thread, it was just a chat restriction for me, and I don't honestly care that much for the punishment itself, but I care for their policies. This could mean that someone somewhere has been permanently banned and lost $100 worth of skins for defending someone from a bully, even if he never offended anyone, merely by "spamming too much".

I Eat ĄssMar 12, 201817 votes

It isn't a bold assumption. This isn't real life. This is the internet, so stop acting like you are some crusader for the good.

From reading the chat logs however I am a little surprised you got a chat restriction

mah1fooMar 12, 201817 votes

Let's agree to disagree then, we both got our opinions on what one should or shouldn't do.

But do we both agree that even if it's not my job to defend someone, it still shouldn't be a punishable offence? Note that these could've been permanent bans if I had been toxic before. I really don't think that's how the system should work.

I Eat ĄssMar 12, 201814 votes

I agree with you here

ShinjusukeMar 12, 201830 votes

There's a difference between "being a crusader for the good" and just having the basic civility to not sit by and watch someone get harassed. That's not being absurd, that's being a decent fuckin' human being. You're welcome to bury your head in the sand if you want, but don't disparage other people for being unwilling to.

FOR JUSTICEMar 12, 201819 votes

even then dude, its the principle itself. the guy didn't actually do anything particularly wrong. it was just minor chat restrict for simply defending someone from some stray yasuo main who believes his teammates are the only reason he isn't challenger.

TheHappyReaperzMar 12, 20181 votes

"Did I honestly break any rules, am I not allowed to talk a lot?"

Yes. If Da Rules say no spamming, Da Rules say no spamming.

mah1fooMar 12, 201811 votes

I don't think talking a lot equals to spamming.

Ph03n1xb1rdMar 12, 201810 votes

Did you read the chatlogs? He did NOT flame anybody...

TheRevivableKingMar 12, 20187 votes

Your reverse psychology doesnt work budd

susiliaMar 12, 201844 votes

banned for spamming the chat? idk man, that seemed like a reasonable amount to me, i often send more messages than that to my teammates plus spamming means to: "send the same message indiscriminately to (large numbers of recipients) on the Internet." whichhh you obviously didn't do since your messages were all different i don't get how you got punished for this :/

BasickMar 12, 20186 votes

65 chat messages in a 25:51 game is definitely spamming in my opinion.

Graham CrackerMar 12, 201812 votes

If you were playing basketball with 9 of your friends and you said something every 40 seconds is that actually too much talking? Imagine being in discord playing league with 4 other people and there would be silence for 8 seconds after each time a person talked, there wouldn't be much teamwork.

RenekTonsOfDmgMar 12, 201819 votes

Being Positive and a nice guy defending people having a bad game = spamming the chat

Riot 2k18

ValyrianBladeMar 12, 201817 votes

The short point is people are babies, and riot is more concerned with not having people get their feelings hurt by words of simple disagreement (i.e. stating an opinion, or saying what you saw, without in any way saying anything directly offensive to someone) than people actively ruining their game.

Someone can int for 20 games straight and say stuff like "oops got caught again" and never see a punishment. Someone can say in that ONE game that the guy doing it is a loser with no life if he has to ruin a game for other people, and get banned.

Riot has just lost it on the punishment side. Since when does a witness in a court get prosecuted for pointing out what they saw or what they interpreted? That's basically what they're doing.

If they want to stop people talking too much, they should set a limit on number of messages you can send per game.

The simple truth is that NOTHING you said is against the rules. Riot is full of it to claim otherwise.

If I counted in chat, typing 1, 2, 3, ... One number per 20 seconds, I'd probably get a ban too. For what? Who am I hurting?

USING THEIR OWN ADVICE, ANYONE CAN MUTE MY SPAM AT ANY TIME, AND LITERALLY NO DAMAGE IS DONE BECAUSE I HAVEN'T SAID ANYTHING OFFENSIVE.

You voiced a different opinion in an adult way, and got punished because of it. Protectionism is unreal.

Lux Is Mai WaifuMar 12, 20186 votes

USING THEIR OWN ADVICE, ANYONE CAN MUTE MY SPAM AT ANY TIME

I chuckled

AmazoXMar 13, 20184 votes

{quoted}

The short point is people are babies, and riot is more concerned with not having people get their feelings hurt by words of simple disagreement (i.e. stating an opinion, or saying what you saw, without in any way saying anything directly offensive to someone) than people actively ruining their game.

Someone can int for 20 games straight and say stuff like "oops got caught again" and never see a punishment. Someone can say in that ONE game that the guy doing it is a loser with no life if he has to ruin a game for other people, and get banned.

Riot has just lost it on the punishment side. Since when does a witness in a court get prosecuted for pointing out what they saw or what they interpreted? That's basically what they're doing.

If they want to stop people talking too much, they should set a limit on number of messages you can send per game.

The simple truth is that NOTHING you said is against the rules. Riot is full of it to claim otherwise.

If I counted in chat, typing 1, 2, 3, ... One number per 20 seconds, I'd probably get a ban too. For what? Who am I hurting?

USING THEIR OWN ADVICE, ANYONE CAN MUTE MY SPAM AT ANY TIME, AND LITERALLY NO DAMAGE IS DONE BECAUSE I HAVEN'T SAID ANYTHING OFFENSIVE.

You voiced a different opinion in an adult way, and got punished because of it. Protectionism is unreal.

This comment deserve's to be pinned right under Riot Tantram's comment to show how horrible his thoughts are.

warmcorntortillaMar 12, 201817 votes

I guess I just don't understand how this breaks summoner code. Like, is it annoying? Yes. Is the top laner he was defending wrong? Sure. But this isn't spamming the chat, by any measure of the definition. It's frustrating to see Riot just mete out punishments to people for seemingly annoying-but-otherwise-not-specifically-bannable-offenses.

There is nothing in the summoner's code about annoyingly defending somebody on the enemy team. What if that was his strat? Why is psyching out the enemy team not an option?

If this is a punishable offense, then we need to be given clear guidelines on why, exactly, it's a punishable offense so we can, you know, avoid the behavior? It seems like any deviation from "gg wp" and directly strategic planning is punishable.

Why even have /all chat in ranked games? What could you POSSIBLY have to say to the enemy team whose purpose is not to tilt them? The only reasonable explanation is to communicate about things that don't specifically have anything to do with the game. If somebody is screaming racial/homophobic slurs or calling people idiots or morons or retards, telling them to kill themselves etc etc, that's bannable. Spamming your youtube/twitch link in chat is bannable.

Being annoying? Being aggressive? Talking a lot? How and why is that punishable? Like obviously OP was being obnoxious and annoying, but was what they were doing punishable? I mean, I just don't see under WHAT part of the summoner code it IS punishable under, at least not from what OP has shown us in screenshots and posted chat logs, which is all we have to go off of.

SUPERIORFlavorMar 12, 201814 votes

I don't see how what you were doing was "Spamming the chat". Unless you're leaving something out, this punishment looks like a huge overreaction from Riot. You seemed to just be arguing with someone and are not even insulting them. How is arguing with someone a worthy offense for punishment? Where in the summoner's code is argument disallowed?

mah1fooMar 12, 20187 votes

That's what I'd love to know too :) Nothing was left out.

YerroFeverMar 12, 20188 votes

I've defended people against bullying in games before but I don't go nearly to the extent you do and I haven't been chat restricted for it.

I will tell people that say someone is inting that if they believe someone is inting, trying to argue it in chat is meaningless and to just drop it since the system is reported vs not reported, not 1 report vs 4 reports. I've also called people out on using hate speech and said that it's not appropriate to use that kind of language and they tend to just stop.

You can stand up to bullies without being as verbose as you were.

I would say that your log indicates arguing, which is toxic in and of itself, despite that you are arguing because you are trying to defend someone else. When you engage in arguing you are contributing to toxicity but in a different way.

You can stand up for people in game in a line or two and then be done with it because muting is a wonderful tool. You've done your due diligence in being a good samaratan by standing up for someone, but then you can mute them so that you aren't distracted by their toxic chat, nor distracting others with argumentative chat, and focus on playing the game.

mah1fooMar 12, 201815 votes

I would say that your log indicates arguing, which is toxic in and of itself

Wow wow wow, what? Arguing is toxic? I argue constantly with my brothers and sisters and friends about all kinds of things. Yet we love each other and nobody ever takes it offensively. People disagree with each other, having a conversation about the disagreement is called arguing. You don't have to be yelling offensive slurs at each other to be arguing. And I don't think I was yelling slurs at anyone, I was arguing as politely as I was able to in the situation.

YerroFeverMar 12, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Wow wow wow, what? Arguing is toxic? I argue constantly with my brothers and sisters and friends about all kinds of things. Yet we love each other and nobody ever takes it offensively. People disagree with each other, having a conversation about the disagreement is called arguing. You don't have to be yelling offensive slurs at each other to be arguing. And I don't think I was yelling slurs at anyone, I was arguing as politely as I was able to in the situation.

Arguing and having a constructive conversation over a disagreement are different.

It looks like you were arguing because based on the context, both sides were just stomping their feet about the behavior of a person in the game.

I would say this is the extent you should have gone:

mah1foo (all): he's not inting mah1foo (all): inting means intentionally feeding

however, you kept going

mah1foo (all): it's not the same as giving up mah1foo (all): he might be doing wrong, but he's not inting that's for sure mah1foo (all): he hasn't died a single time intentionally mah1foo (all): that means he's not inting

And then even inadvertently accused him of trolling

mah1foo (all): he might have given up and start trolling

and then kept on going

mah1foo (all): But he never inted mah1foo (all): inting = INTENTIONALLY feeding mah1foo (all): how is he even trolling? mah1foo (all): no we wont mah1foo (all): why? mah1foo (all): What has he done? mah1foo (all): so what is he supposed to do? mah1foo (all): come top and die over and over again? mah1foo (all): if he gets no ganks he has no otehr options mah1foo (all): i kill him litrally with 3 autos mah1foo (all): giving me 5 more kills is trying to win? mah1foo (all): I can dive him any second mah1foo (all): as soon as I see him I can dive him mah1foo (all): no that would be you mah1foo (all): you wanna try come 1v1 me ? mah1foo (all): try "play safe" under turret mate mah1foo (all): let's see how fast I dive you mah1foo (all): ?= mah1foo (all): play safe mate mah1foo (all): stop trol lpls mah1foo: maybe, but did darius's team help him ? mah1foo (all): he's not afk, he's stopping top super minions from destoying your nexus turrets mah1foo (all): wtf mah1foo (all): just because he lost lane doesn't make him an evil super troll mah1foo (all): no he was mid back then

Then your teammates seemed to have gotten dragged into it, which is distracting

mah1foo: mf can you explain then? mah1foo: what did he do wrong? mah1foo: he said "open top", that's it mah1foo: he didn't do anything else mah1foo: he came still top twice more and died both times mah1foo: so he didn't really give up, he just said it mah1foo: but he didn't mah1foo: he said he would ,but he didn't mah1foo: does that mean he should be banned? mah1foo: yes he said that mah1foo: but he didn't leave it open mah1foo: he still came top twice after mah1foo: should we ban him because he said he opens even thoug he didn't? mah1foo: no?

Here it demonstrates you are arguing with MF, your own teammate. What is the point of this? Why are you arguing with your MF?

mah1foo: i would report our jg mah1foo: not ganking once and the nflaming

Then you drag your jungler into it and you attack him. This isn't constructive, in fact it is toxic, you are dragging your teammates into an argument. This isn't discourse, it is discord.

This is what I am talking about is toxic.

This argumentative nature you have. I'm not saying that you shouldn't stand up to people. I'm saying you shouldn't argue because arguing is pointless.

Focus on having constructive conversations and when it can no longer be constructive, end it and just move on. You should have ended it after the first two /all lines. It was clearly not going anywhere in a constructive direction during the following exchange.

mah1fooMar 12, 20186 votes

Arguing and having a constructive conversation over a disagreement are different.

Where do you draw the line? I was doing my best to keep it civil and explain my thoughts and ask for theirs. I didn't go offensive on anyone or anything.

And then even inadvertently accused him of trolling

English isn't my first language, but this isn't how I meant it. By "might" I meant "I don't know if he is or isn't trolling, but I know he isn't inting".

Then your teammates seemed to have gotten dragged into it, which is distracting

MF was flaming him from the beginning in all chat with the enemies, I just moved the conversation from all chat to our chat so the enemies don't have to watch it.

Here it demonstrates you are arguing with MF, your own teammate. What is the point of this? Why are you arguing with your MF?

Because like I've mentioned earlier, it's someone else's emotions and mental health at stake, you think I value my team winning over that? Besides they were down like 50 kills and we ended it right after, it didn't do any harm to our team. It's just a game, to me that's nothing compared to legit bullying and calling people by some of the worst slurs available.

Then you drag your jungler into it and you attack him. This isn't constructive, in fact it is toxic, you are dragging your teammates into an argument. This isn't discourse, it is discord.

You interpret this wrong, it was the enemy jungler who asked something along the lines of "if you were in a game where your teammate went 0/3 and then changed lane and refused to go top, wouldn't you report him for trolling?", to which I answered in this very hypothetical scenario that I would rather report my jungler who flames. I don't think it breaks any rules to say that I would report a jungler who flames his teammates for dying, right? So even here I'm still defending the darius against his teammates arguments.

YerroFeverMar 12, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Where do you draw the line? I was doing my best to keep it civil and explain my thoughts and ask for theirs. I didn't go offensive on anyone or anything.

Your heart is in the right place but your method is something I want to try and help you refine so that you're more effective and efficient.

You were basically repeating yourself over and over. This is why it's arguing. You guys were running in circles. It's inting, it's not inting, it's inting, it's not. it may be giving up, no it's inting, it may be trolling, no it's inting. Nothing was getting accomplished. All you did was just fill the chat log with pointless back and forth. It wasn't going anywhere. This is why I say it is arguing rather than constructive conversation. If it were constructive, the conversation would have moved and grown, but it wasn't. It was stale and sitting in the same place from the very start. That MF wasn't going to change her mind. By continuing to go back and forth with someone who won't change their mind, it's very inefficient. You're putting in so much effort and getting no results. When the situation becomes inefficient, stop trying. You've done your due diligence in being a good samaratan. You don't have to be someone's therapist. You just have to keep being the good person you are and help those who are being bullied.

English isn't my first language, but this isn't how I meant it. By "might" I meant "I don't know if he is or isn't trolling, but I know he isn't inting".

Fair enough. Hopefully we don't have more lost in translation moments.

MF was flaming him from the beginning in all chat with the enemies, I just moved the conversation from all chat to our chat so the enemies don't have to watch it.

So if your MF was flaming the enemy, why was it necessary to go in all chat for that long? You could have done those first two lines in all chat and have already stood up to the MF on behalf of the enemy player. This is where I want you to become more efficient and change your methods of being someone who stands up against bullies. If you wanted to really further nail it down, you could have just outwardly called out the mf and said "just stop trying to bully them. I'm muting you now." So not only did you stand up to the bully, you've now shown the bully that there is a negative consequence to their actions. Her own teammate is standing up to her and expressing that her words are unacceptable because you are muting her.

Because like I've mentioned earlier, it's someone else's emotions and mental health at stake, you think I value my team winning over that? Besides they were down like 50 kills and we ended it right after, it didn't do any harm to our team. It's just a game, to me that's nothing compared to legit bullying and calling people by some of the worst slurs available.

It doesn't look like you stood up for someone who got called "some of the worst slurs available" it only looks like you were addressing inting so what you say now doesn't match what your chat log reflects.

You interpret this wrong, it was the enemy jungler who asked something along the lines of "if you were in a game where your teammate went 0/3 and then changed lane and refused to go top, wouldn't you report him for trolling?", to which I answered in this very hypothetical scenario that I would rather report my jungler who flames. I don't think it breaks any rules to say that I would report a jungler who flames his teammates for dying, right? So even here I'm still defending the darius against his teammates arguments.

Fair enough on the jungling hypothetical.

However, the rest of the game you were still arguing with MF. What was the point of that? If you have a constructive conversation like we are having in trying to figure out what the problem is and how to best address it, then it's going to have a point.

You addressed that you didn't think the enemy was inting. You stood up to the bully. You don't need to change the bully's mind on what happened. Remember, bullying is HOW they express themselves to others, not what they think. If that MF just thought to herself "ugh, that enemy is feeding" but never typed anything, that's not bullying and you wouldn't have had to type anything.

You are trying to do a good thing and partake in collectively getting rid of anti-social behavior in the LOL community. I'm not saying stop doing it, I'm saying adjust how you do it because the best way is that you do just enough work to get a positive result. Even if your response isn't that one golden moment where the toxic person realizes they shouldn't be toxic, just contribute to it and stay a positive force in the LOL community.

Your heart is in the right place, we just have to help you refine your method. My advice is to be short and sweet and not waste your time and energy into someone who doesn't want to change at that specific time and moment. Eventually, the sum of their experiences will be what changes them, especially online.

mah1fooMar 12, 20185 votes

I do 100% agree that my method wasn't the best available even if my intentions were, and I've already learned in the previous thread how to act next time :) Thanks for your words still.

So if your MF was flaming the enemy, why was it necessary to go in all chat for that long?

Because she wasn't the only one, enemies were flaming too. If MF and enemies are gang flaming him in the all chat, that's where I feel like I should defend him. This would've been much cleaner if it was one guy flaming him, but it was literally three enemies and MF from my team.

It doesn't look like you stood up for someone who got called "some of the worst slurs available" it only looks like you were addressing inting so what you say now doesn't match what your chat log reflects.

Yeah but he was being called a retard and whatnot because they said he's trolling and inting. Which he wasn't. If they say "wow report this retard inter", I say that they got it wrong and he's not inting. The only reason they call him by slurs is because they think he's inting.

However, the rest of the game you were still arguing with MF. What was the point of that? If you have a constructive conversation like we are having in trying to figure out what the problem is and how to best address it, then it's going to have a point.

I wanted to teach him that not everyone who dies is an evil inter. Maybe she'll remember it next game and maybe she'll be the next guy to stand between the bully and the victim. Unlikely, but I can dream.

But yeah again, I agree that my method wasn't perfect. I still don't agree with Riot's punishment.

DummyTrollMar 13, 20183 votes

"Toxicity is the degree to which a chemical substance or a particular mixture of substances can damage an organism".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicity#Etymology

At some point, a Rioter decided to use that word (the adjective) for another purpose. Marketing. The League Of Legends community is one of the lowest ethically base, spread around the internet.

That is a fact.

Defending someone is not negative. It is noble. Can you defend someone, even yourself, in League. Think it twice, they call it retaliation.

And then there are the double-edge moralists. I wonder how many of those NA-Rioters are pro weapon-law. Self-defense? Everything has the same base ethics. Internet or not Internet.

Wonder why there is no tribunal? Why everything is automated?

" The League Of Legends community is one of the lowest ethically base, spread around the internet."

They can't afford people in the payroll to check things.

Bottom line, if you like the game, which it's not bad. Mute all and don't try to be noble. Just do your thing. Play.