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Punished for defending an enemy who was being bullied by his team, Riot advises to not defend him

mah1foo··106 votes·10,037 views

Update: Faith in riot lost, they confirmed that the punishment was correct. I suggest people read this thread before that one though, to get a better idea of the situation.

Let's start with the chat log. I have marked "(all)" on those messages that I'm 100% sure of, but a few of the non-marked ones could've been all chat too, the chat log box doesn't show it so it's all from my memory. Anyways, this is irrelevant since I'm not complaining of my punishment, but more of that later on:

> Game 1 > mah1foo: gj bot > mah1foo: top won ^^ > mah1foo: ty for ping :D > mah1foo (all): int? > mah1foo (all): he's not inting > mah1foo (all): inting means intentionally feeding > mah1foo (all): it's not the same as giving up > mah1foo (all): he might be doing wrong, but he's not inting that's for sure > mah1foo (all): he hasn't died a single time intentionally > mah1foo (all): that means he's not inting > mah1foo (all): he might have given up and start trolling > mah1foo (all): But he never inted > mah1foo (all): inting = INTENTIONALLY feeding > mah1foo (all): how is he even trolling? > mah1foo (all): no we wont > mah1foo (all): why? > mah1foo (all): What has he done? > mah1foo (all): so what is he supposed to do? > mah1foo (all): come top and die over and over again? > mah1foo (all): if he gets no ganks he has no otehr options > mah1foo (all): i kill him litrally with 3 autos > mah1foo (all): giving me 5 more kills is trying to win? > mah1foo (all): I can dive him any second > mah1foo (all): as soon as I see him I can dive him > mah1foo (all): no that would be you > mah1foo (all): you wanna try come 1v1 me ? > mah1foo (all): try "play safe" under turret mate > mah1foo (all): let's see how fast I dive you > mah1foo (all): ?= > mah1foo (all): play safe mate > mah1foo (all): stop trol lpls > mah1foo: maybe, but did darius's team help him ? > mah1foo (all): he's not afk, he's stopping top super minions from destoying your nexus turrets > mah1foo (all): wtf > mah1foo (all): just because he lost lane doesn't make him an evil super troll > mah1foo (all): no he was mid back then > mah1foo: mf can you explain then? > mah1foo: what did he do wrong? > mah1foo: he said "open top", that's it > mah1foo: he didn't do anything else > mah1foo: he came still top twice more and died both times > mah1foo: so he didn't really give up, he just said it > mah1foo: but he didn't > mah1foo: he said he would ,but he didn't > mah1foo: does that mean he should be banned? > mah1foo: yes he said that > mah1foo: but he didn't leave it open > mah1foo: he still came top twice after > mah1foo: should we ban him because he said he opens even thoug he didn't? > mah1foo: no? > mah1foo: i would report our jg > mah1foo: not ganking once and the nflaming > mah1foo: ww died to me at lvl 3 > mah1foo: gave me my first kill > mah1foo: then he never came back even though iwas stronger than darius > mah1foo: and now they flame darius when he lsot top? :D > mah1foo: what is he supposed to do > mah1foo: if his jungler feeds his enemy and he doesn't get any ganks and i can dive him > mah1foo: what should he do? > mah1foo: no let's all report him for losing lane > mah1foo: that's bannable offense nowadays > mah1foo: he never gave up :) > mah1foo (all): baited to lose game :D > mah1foo (all): wp ww

I figured this wasn't really fair since I was doing my best to be the good guy here, so I sent a hopeful ticket to support and got back an answer that I did not expect:

> Hi and thanks for bla bla, we don't tolerate shit etc. > ... > In such situations, the best things you can do are to mute any player that is having an offensive attitude and to report them. This way, you will help us clean-up the community and you will always be on the safe side.

I can't believe this. I no longer care for my honor levels or even my League account,** this is no longer about me.**

First of all, I'm not the one being bullied, how does it help the person being bullied if I mute the enemies? Second, how does it help the person being bullied if I report the bullies? He's unlikely to ever see them again anyways. Both of these advises focus on me and the bullies, and thus they're both wrong advises to give. Here in Finland, we're taught to stand up against the bullies and show those who are being bullied that we care for them and they're not alone. Riot advises the opposite, Riot advises you to be a bystander and watch the bullying. In Finland we call those bystanders bullies too.

Again, and trust me when I say that I can't emphasise this enough, this man was being legit harassed. They called him by some of the most awful names, told him to uninstall, and blamed the whole loss on him. And Riot advises me to shut up and let the system do its thing? Yeah sure, I personally don't care for the bullies, let the system take care of them, they'll get what they deserve. But answer me this: will the system make the Darius player feel any better? What if he's already depressed and League is his main thing in life, maybe he's got no friends outside of League? Will it make him happier that the system might give the bullies a 10 game chat restriction, when he's being called an idiotic retard who should never play the game ever again? The answer is no. He probably won't even know if the people got punished or not, and even if he's lucky enough to get the feedback message, it can just be a 10 game chat restriction. In the worst case scenario he doesn't even know how to report people, there are very young and vulnerable people playing this game.

Riot's advise is to hope that those flaming bullies can't talk for 10 games, or maybe they'll even have to pay $10 for a new ebay account. Well I'm sorry Riot, but I value people's emotional and mental health over my own League account. I will continue to defend those who deserve to be defended. I will buy a hundred accounts if I have to. But this shit has got to stop.

The system is broken.

Edit: And for my own sake before Riot goes nuts, no, my account is not bought.

Edit 2: It was just a 10 game CR and I don't care about my punishment. What I do care about is how the Darius handled being bullied, and the fact that Riot is telling me not to defend those who are being bullied. They didn't tell me I defended too aggressively or anything like that, they told me to close my eyes to the bullying next time and not defend at all. That I do care about.

245 Comments

EL HAMSTERO22 votes

good for you man. dont let riot change you. always stand up for people being bullied

Chermorg20 votes

Riot advises the opposite, Riot advises you to be a bystander and watch the bullying. In Finland we call those bystanders bullies too.

Actually, Riot advises you to run away from the situation (mute them), and tell a teacher/administrator who can go stop the bullying. They advise you to not join the bullying yourself and to not bully the bully - as that just makes you a bully. From someone who has actually studied Finland's system (psychology minor here) - they would advise you, if possible, to encourage the victim of bullying to remove themselves from the situation and refrain from "standing ground" - that is always a better result than bullying them back.

Riot's advise is to hope that those flaming bullies can't talk for 10 games, or maybe they'll even have to pay $10 for a new ebay account.

Most players who are punished never get another punishment, and actually improve their behavior. Only about 10% (give or take 1-2) get any form of punishment in the game. And the players permabanned amount to less than 0.01% (0.006% to be exact) of the players. Of those 0.006% of the player base who are permanently suspended, most actually leave the game completely. Very few come back, and of those who do come back on a new account, very few are toxic.

Your distrust of the system is not merited - it is merely an excuse for you to flame them in retaliation or "defense". There is no such thing as defense by flaming them back or harassing them back - it simply doesn't fly. There is a mute button - you are expected to use it. That is the defense.

The Soulforged20 votes

sounds like zero tolerance in schools

Chermorg9 votes

That is quite a bit what it is like. There are some things that aren't okay, and kids are not taught that "fighting fire with fire" is okay - ever.

Especially when there is a person in a position of authority that can halt the situation and punish the offender, it is not your job as a bystander to perform "vigilante justice" of any kind - be that flaming them back, harassing them, or anything of the nature. The only form of retaliation that's appropriate is to suggest that the victim mute the offender and forget about it and move on - then report at the end of the game.

Hammermancer20 votes

{quoted}

That is quite a bit what it is like. There are some things that aren't okay, and kids are not taught that "fighting fire with fire" is okay - ever.

Oh boy here's your company's bullshit subjective moral worldbuilding idea, issue is it doesn't work. That darius would get fucking banned, this player gets punished because she didn't succumb to the bystander effect. You don't see active bullying and not attempt to diffuse the situation. If you do that then you're a coward, This person spoke her mind when another team may have just listened to the cries of ragers and reported darius for losing lane as a int feeder. that means that he may have been temp banned while doing nothing wrong

your system is broken and encouraging people to watch someone else get bullied is wrong

Especially when there is a person in a position of authority that can halt the situation and punish the offender, it is not your job as a bystander to perform "vigilante justice" of any kind - be that flaming them back, harassing them, or anything of the nature. The only form of retaliation that's appropriate is to suggest that the victim mute the offender and forget about it and move on - then report at the end of the game.

Please watch someone suffer and pray that the anonymous secret police will listen to your side and not the side of the bullies, even though most of the moderation is done by bots and riot support is usually vague and unhelpful

Silly Neeko4 votes

Ive had games that i was literally targetted all game and smacked around, slaughtered, and was unable to do anything. Team raged, enemy team laughed, i kept my cool and kept trying.

Ive had some pretty awful games and still have not had any punishment unless it was because i got disconnected from the game.... which occasionally did happen due to various reasons that was not me purposefully leaving just to leave.... most of the time i was pinging 5k-15k ping spikes and i tried seeing if the rebooting my computer/league would help, and i messaged this before doing it.

I have looked at most of the player behavior things, and most of the time it their punishment was obvious to almost everyone. Very few times was there one that i saw that looked innocent enough that i suggested sending in a support ticket.

mah1foo4 votes

Good for you, now have you been depressed and suicidal, without any friends, and League being the main thing in your life, while being

literally targetted all game and smacked around, slaughtered, and was unable to do anything. Team raged, enemy team laughed

You kept your cool and kept trying, can you tell me for a fact that this darius was like you?

Jorencice2 votes

Lol how the hell do you know that the darius was?

Good for you, now have you been depressed and suicidal, without any friends, and League being the main thing in your life,

Cuz if he said that he probly lied. Cuz thats quite a few pity points he tacked on.

mah1foo4 votes

Do you know he wasn't?

Cuz if he said that he probly lied. Cuz thats quite a few pity points he tacked on.

He didn't say that, he spoke very little and seemed like a humble guy who took his team's flaming too hard on himself. He never flamed anyone back (in all chat at least).

The Soulforged17 votes

Usually I am against blatant toxicity being used against blatant toxicity, but this is nowhere near as bad as anything I've usually seen involving people who claim they were "unjustly banned". It does have some passive aggression, but it isn't like he's throwing out insults.

Silly Neeko8 votes

As the poster has stated, they do not mind their ban. Their issue is with Riot's commentary of how they were trying to defend the darius.

Chances are the poster had previous punishments, otherwise it would not have had so many issues with the passive aggression. Thus why poster is not worried about their own punishment.

mah1foo3 votes

It was only a 10 game chat restriction for me, nowhere did I say I was banned. I don't care about it. I care about Riot's policy. I care about how that darius felt, and this community is making me sick right now.

Nato Boram7 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Soulforged,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=81jphEp1,comment-id=0001000000000002,timestamp=2018-03-12T00:38:34.579+0000)

Usually I am against blatant toxicity being used against blatant toxicity, but this is nowhere near as bad as anything I've usually seen involving people who claim they were "unjustly banned". It does have some passive aggression, but it isn't like he's throwing out insults.

Right? There's literally 0 pejorative words in his chat logs. I just don't get it. I'd open a second ticket and hope that someone who isn't brain dead reads it.

Hammermancer30 votes

{quoted}

Most players who are punished never get another punishment, and actually improve their behavior. Only about 10% (give or take 1-2) get any form of punishment in the game. And the players permabanned amount to less than 0.01% (0.006% to be exact) of the players. Of those 0.006% of the player base who are permanently suspended, most actually leave the game completely. Very few come back, and of those who do come back on a new account, very few are toxic.

this is information given to us by riot, they also don't talk about how many people just quit on the spot after a punishment, or various other factors that could contribute to this statistic... like swapping to your other account or whatnot

Your distrust of the system is not merited - it is merely an excuse for you to flame them in retaliation or "defense". There is no such thing as defense by flaming them back or harassing them back - it simply doesn't fly. There is a mute button - you are expected to use it. That is the defense.

I have massive distrust for the system, read the bahavior boards every time you log in, you'll see more than a handful of cases in a week where people are banned for literally nothing other than political correctness and beurocractic mentality of riot staff

The system is clearly broken since i still see toxic ragers every other game at best

Umbral Regent26 votes

The system is clearly broken since i still see toxic ragers every other game at best

That's like saying real-world legal systems don't work because there are still criminals in the world. It doesn't make sense.

macromite3 votes

its closer to saying that a legal system doesn't work because there are criminals on every street corner.

Xidphel1 votes

Bye then.

Hammermancer11 votes

{quoted}

Bye then.

bye then for what? are you saying that you're trying to get me banned? for what? for saying what I have seen in my experience to be true?

I have a close friend that i know for a fact has had 10 permabanned accounts, 10, that's almost tyler1 level of toxic. It's almost rat irl levels of toxic

Dude he doesn't care, he just goes and gets another account, he's a dick in game. I don't play with the dude anymore because I saw it first hand but still. He has this whole little community of people like that. They don't give a fuck, and they think its funny.

Xidphel3 votes

Because I assume you'd make the smart choice as a dissatisfied customer to a system that refuses to change: moving on to other games that could potentially be to your liking.

Hammermancer10 votes

I'm dissatisfied with customer service, not the product at large, sure i have gripes with the balance team and rework decisions plenty of the time, but as far as mobas go, league is the best in my view... and i've tried them all.

EL HAMSTERO6 votes

those stastics are very outdated and (hopefully) no longer accurate.

did you realize if only 0.006% of players get permanently suspended that means only 1 teammate in about 4000 of your games will be getting banned? i have played less than 2000 games in my lifetime. so if the statistics were correct the probabilty would be no one i have ever played with has been banned.

i sure hope its a lot higher than that or riots punishment system is not doing a very good job.

Frothy White Goo5 votes

[{quoted}](name=EL HAMSTERO,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=81jphEp1,comment-id=00010003,timestamp=2018-03-12T00:38:33.567+0000)

those stastics are very outdated and (hopefully) no longer accurate.

did you realize if only 0.0006% of players get permanently suspended that means only 1 teammate in about 4000 of your games will be getting banned? i have played less than 2000 games in my lifetime. so if the statistics were correct the probabilty would be no one i have ever played with has been banned.

i sure hope its a lot higher than that or riots punishment system is not doing a very good job.

they've been known to falseify most of their statistics

there's actually an ongoing lawsuit against riot about it, which is why they've stopped giving out statistics as such

AeroWaffle5 votes

Link to lawsuit?

Frothy White Goo2 votes

considering you've flamed me nonstop every time ive ever posted in the behavior forums

no, i am not handfeeding you any information

AeroWaffle12 votes

If you're unwilling to back up your claim that there is an ongoing lawsuit, which would be an easy copy-paste, it's easy to assume that you're just making it up.

The only risk there is on providing the lawsuit link is if the lawsuit is not about what you say it is or it simply doesn't exist.

Frothy White Goo1 votes

You assume that any reason i choose not to do something is because of risk

it's moreso because YOU are as toxic in these boards as most people are in game

specifically towards me

and i will not

handfeed you

any

information

AeroWaffle11 votes

Then your claim has zero proof backing it up. That's pretty much how it works.

Frothy White Goo2 votes

i dont really care if YOU believe me

everyone involved in the suit knows this

riot knows this

i know this

it's good enough for me

AeroWaffle7 votes

If it were good enough for you, and you are unwilling to provide proof as support, why post the claim?

Frothy White Goo1 votes

i posted the claim for the comfort of another user

you just try to stick your nose in everything and flame me at every turn

Xidphel8 votes

i posted the claim for the comfort of another user

Except, Aero said, you have nothing to back up your claim. You refuse to back up your claim and therefore, as is in this "literal" reality, your lawsuit comment would be considered by anyone reading this thread made up.

You want to sound more credible? You want people to take you seriously? You want more people to side with you?

When you make a claim, be it there's an ongoing lawsuit or some riot "employee" is "literally" lying or literal Riot literal objectively literal Tan-literally-tram is objectively Adolf literally Hitler, you have to back it up with evidence. Don't act like a kid when someone says mean things to you or else we'll treat you like a kid. After all, evidence speaks louder than claims.

zoliking10 votes

{quoted}

Actually, Riot advises you to run away from the situation (mute them), and tell a teacher/administrator who can go stop the bullying. They advise you to not join the bullying yourself and to not bully the bully - as that just makes you a bully.

So... wanna point out the specific comments you would consider "bullying the bully"? Obviously this falls into the category of typing more than playing but I would love if you could highlight the comment in which he specifically went offensive against another player. Because in my reading in this analogy he tried to step between the bully and the victim, saying "Leave him alone."

mah1foo5 votes

And even if there was one individual offensive comment in the middle somewhere, the purpose was 100% to be the guy who steps in between. Maybe I wasn't perfect at it, but that's not what Riot told me, they told me not to step between the bully and the victim next time, but to close my eyes instead. That's what disgusts me.

zoliking5 votes

{quoted}

And even if there was one individual offensive comment in the middle somewhere, the purpose was 100% to be the guy who steps in between. Maybe I wasn't perfect at it, but that's not what Riot told me, they told me not to step between the bully and the victim next time, but to close my eyes instead. That's what disgusts me.

And you are absolutely right in being disgusted with that. As far as the content goes, you did nothing wrong here, even if the Darius was trolling you had a different opinion, and obviously his teammates weren't handling it well. As the person who had to pay the most attention to his plays, you were the most qualified to judge whether he was trolling or not and completely justified in expressing that judgement. If you were less verbose about it then any reports on this log would have zero merit.

redniwediS12 votes

Self defense, or defending another, is taking action to prevent harm.

Retaliation is harming another as they have harmed you, or in this case as they have harmed that other player.

Which side were you really on here? Are you sure you didn't cross the line?

mah1foo9 votes

I don't know if I crossed a line or not, I don't care for my account, and it was just a chat restriction anyways.

What I care about is the Darius and Riot actually advising not to defend him. Am I saiying I was a perfect example on how to defend a victim? No. But at least I was there for him and even added him after the game. And I don't want the authority to tell me not to try to defend the victim next time.

Xidphel3 votes

Riot actually advising not to defend him.

Again, not what riot's saying.

zoliking2 votes

{quoted}

Again, not what riot's saying.

Then how do you interpet what they are saying?

Xidphel2 votes

Short answer: don't flame. That includes flaming back.

Longer answer: So Darius was flaming. Considering that defending someone is preventing harm from coming to said person, throwing words back can't be considered defense as it doesn't stop Darius from flaming. Darius is a troll. Internet 101: don't feed the trolls. Defense in this case would be preventing the words from reaching Mah's friend. That can only be done by muting. OP just needs to tell his friend to mute the troll while muting the troll himself and boom. No need to flame.

redniwediS10 votes

I've ran into that situation a few times myself, and each time I did two things; I made sure the person being attacked knew he wasn't alone and his effort at playing was not going unnoticed, and I did my best to convince him to make use of the mute button.

You're not necessarily being told to stand back and watch it happen, you're just being scolded due to your method. Arguing doesn't show solidarity, and doesn't defuse the situation. It definitely feels better to be acting, trust me I know, but it's not the most effective method you can take. Just try and improve your method for next time, we need people like you around here, but also need you to go unpunished.

mah1foo6 votes

Thanks for the wise words, this was my first time ever standing up like this against the bullies, I'll make sure to do better next time and remember your advise. You're right that the best way I can be useful us not to get punished and instead keep spreading the kindness.

3TWarrior4 votes

I would like to point out that there are people in the US who are ignorant of the effects words can have and ultimately, passive behavior can be just as bad as aggressive behavior. While it is correct that the focus should be shifted to reinforcing the victim in a situation, automated responses do little if nothing at all to improve a situation.

For example, there are rare instances where someone is caught by the automated system the first time they cause a problem, but, what happens when that situation is drawn out over an extended period of time? The "bully" will become more confident in their aggressive behavior; So much so that by the time punishment is received, the bully will have likely forgotten the incident in question and might even be flagged for minor problems, creating confusion and anger and adding that destructive combination to their already bad behavioral problems

redniwediS4 votes

I have personally seen punishments that were overturned due to the automated system registering replies, rather than real statements that break the rules. Support tickets are required for this, though some are lucky enough to have their threads seen by Rioters.

Automation is required to handle most day to day cases, but eventually someone does fall through the cracks. Riot has a decent system in place to help them out, but even it has it's flaws. We are only human, and cannot create flawless things.

That said I have also personally seen the improvement in the League community over the years. When I started playing in season 1 is a completely different experience to modern League, and I am very grateful for the steps Riot has taken, however imperfect they may be. We are only players, but we can do our part by assisting people who run into these situations on here, on Reddit, and wherever else they may go for answers.

Also, ignorance is a human problem, not a problem unique to the United States.

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