Need other league players input in an unbiased manner.

ionst0rm·Jul 24, 2018·2 votes·2,066 views

Riot deleted my last post of this without justification so I will post this again. Riot - If you feel the need to delete this thread, adhere to your own terms of service and notify me for the reasoning or have your legal team contact me directly to explain.

Besides that, What would you do if you're playing adc (Lucian) with a Lux support against a Jhin/Vel. We started the game off right with the lux standing at the tower insteading helping leash for the jungler. Not gaining vision or positioning, just standing afk at tower. Upon getting to lane late and losing 3 melee minions, I get there and lux is spamming her lvl 1 E at the waves instead of poking while vel is spamming hers at me. I asked her politely to stop hitting the wave. She continued to do this through the third wave forcing me to b from taking endless poke while they just zoned me off. Push comes to shove, this continues for the first 10 minutes of the game and I got absolutely tired of it. I started to flame this player after asking nicely. I was a plat player the prior 2 seasons and now I'm in silver elo (took 8 afks in promos to get brought back down to elo hell). Was a support main but can play all roles at a gold 1 level. ADC/Supp being ones i was playing in plat. I continued to hard flame this player because she kept doing it after the team started flaming me for being down 60 cs at 18 minutes or so. They don't realize an aggro lane like that you can't farm as a medium range while your own support is just screwing waves not allowing for last hitting and not poking opposing lane while they are free aggro. Team ended up flaming me for being so far behind and why this Jhin was ahead so i flamed right back at them. Explaining time and time again to watch this lux's play. So here is my question to my fellow league players on what I should have done.

Ignore this players behavior, end up losing the game from it being a 3v5 since both myself and lux would be useless, putting me in a position to be reported for intentional feeding which wouldn't have been the case but the automated system would record it as such giving me a ban.
Afk out so my time is not wasted and i wouldn't have flamed this lux. I also would have been reported for leaving the game.
Flame this player since asking nicely wasn't doing it. (This got me a 10game chat restriction which i feel is unjust).
Do nothing and keep playing which puts me in violation of terms of inting as being so far behind as a lucian with no support means i couldn't even farm safely under tower. (Team refused to buy vision as well. I was behind yet the only one trying to keep vision)
Do nothing and report this player at the end of the game for something that is not reportable. This player trolls like no other and is in no violation costing other players 20-30 minutes of their day and riot refuses to punish players like this forcing people like myself to get fed up and take it into our own hands.

Again Riot, If you feel the need to be embarrassed about how your poor matchmaking MMR system is along with not wanting your audience to see how you appeal to the masses and not addressing this trolling issue I need your legal team to contact me. If this is taken down i will put it right back up as this is in no way shape or form a violation of your terms of service as i just read it top to bottom twice to make sure my last one wasn't at fault for it getting deleted.

35 Comments

DearPearJul 24, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Ignore this players behavior, end up losing the game from it being a 3v5 since both myself and lux would be useless, putting me in a position to be reported for intentional feeding which wouldn't have been the case but the automated system would record it as such giving me a ban.

wtf? Plain wrong.

ionst0rmJul 26, 20181 votes

Explain. I took a ban on an off account for this very thing. You may believe in the tooth fairy but i sure as hell don't. My cousin took a ban earlier this season for this exact same thing. I was sitting back watching his games (3 consecutive where he was outskilled in bot lane matchups of combining the support and adc into one). Next thing he knows, he gets an automated message saying he's been placed in lower q's just like i did. What riot is telling us and what riot is doing are not one in the same. Once you get tagged as someone who's getting bent out of shape they keep you down. Hint, go on twitch and watch some streamers in lower elo. Keep emotion out of it, keep an unbiased manner, just watch both sides of the spectrum and see what is actually happening.

DearPearJul 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Next thing he knows, he gets an automated message saying he's been placed in lower q's just like i did.

That's not a thing and you'd be the first ever to claim otherwise, which is not helping your point.

ionst0rmJul 26, 20181 votes

So pretty much where we are getting at is you will blindly follow riot over players who have legitimate complaints? Why even chime in if you aren't going to be helpful to either side? Have ego issues that you have to blindly accuse someone who is asking for others opinions while it's clear as day there is a problem here riot is refusing to acknowledge.

DearPearJul 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So pretty much where we are getting at is you will blindly follow riot over players who have legitimate complaints? Why even chime in if you aren't going to be helpful to either side? Have ego issues that you have to blindly accuse someone who is asking for others opinions while it's clear as day there is a problem here riot is refusing to acknowledge.

I'm not following Riot in any way there. I'm stating an obvious fact : if what you said was really a thing we'd have more posted here about it than your very own post. Considering that you're the first and last person to claim that you've been put in a "lower queue" it's kinda hard to believe you and you so-called "legitimate complaint"

ButterwoodJul 24, 20183 votes

You can only control your own actions. If you flame people, you get punished. That's the way the reporting system works. Own it and move on.

ionst0rmJul 24, 20181 votes

Here's the better question, Let's say this is happening once every 4th or 5th game. No bullshit. Coming from the words of a veteran and i hold my word to be true this is endless like this. I've tried time and time again to get someone from riot to explain to me what's going on. Only response i've gotten is the 50 +/- 1% pairing system which is a fabrication of the truth. If this was any other business that has monetary gains, they'd be subject to civil litigation from a faulted product. If this was one or twice a month i'd have no problems. This is just too highly regular and needs to be addressed.

disregardableJul 24, 20181 votes

I got my 2 week ban for the same thing. Supp stood under turret. I threw a fit. Support is prone to getting autofilled, and when people get autofilled they give zero fucks. I'm trying to switch to jg, or at least only play ADC with supps I know don't suck.

btw if you're the same guy from yesterday, I think that Lux is just a brand new player. heading straight to B5.

AnAggravatedPimpJul 24, 20183 votes

Ignore and report for griefing. Riot has access to replays whether we press record or not and they take inting/griefing/trolling more seriously than you expect. They will hav someone manually review a case if such a thing happens.

Flaming them just ruins the game for the other players and gets both of you reported soooooooooo, ignore them, play the best you can and report them in post game

ionst0rmJul 24, 20181 votes

What i'm saying is they don't. Every time i've reported for such actions (thus how i've gone from plat back to silver is endless players like this from this watered down pairing system) nothing happens. I check na.op.gg the next 48 hours to see if they are still playing. Not once have i seen a player punished. I agree with your sentiment that they have access to these system but you realize there is no way on gods green earth they have the manpower to review every case of grieving with how many games are played? It's pretty much just a feel good button to hit at the end of the game giving players false hope they'll correct those players.

AeroWaffleJul 24, 20183 votes

But it the report feature does nothing, how would you explain those people who come to these boards with bans and chat restrictions?

ionst0rmJul 24, 20181 votes

It's completely automated. If (X) amount of players report someone for grieving then the system automatically tags the person. If it's a singular person it will be interpreted as that player just had a bad game. I don't know how much more i can do outside of constantly record these games for others to see and ask riot and other league players for answers.

AeroWaffleJul 24, 20185 votes

It's completely automated. If (X) amount of players report someone for grieving then the system automatically tags the person.

You're contradicting your previous statement.

It's pretty much just a feel good button to hit at the end of the game giving players false hope they'll correct those players.

It taking more than one game of poor behavior reports to get someone punished directly contradicts your claim that the report does nothing.

ionst0rmJul 24, 20181 votes

Negative, I'll elaborate.

If X amount of players within that game report the player, an automated ban or restriction will take effect.

If only yourself reports the player because you're the only one seeing it then it becomes just a feel good button.

AeroWaffleJul 24, 20184 votes

If X amount of players within that game report the player, an automated ban or restriction will take effect.

Nope. Not how it works.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=HALtvP5a,comment-id=00000000000000010000000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2018-04-24T21:45:22.296+0000)

'Ganging up on' someone via reports doesn't do anything. 1 report is the same as 9. More reports does not increase the chance of a game being reviewed. All it takes is a single report.

https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752884-Reporting-a-Player

"Do not ask other players in the match to report the offending player. It only takes one report for our systems to review a game. Additional reports will not do anything for the offending player; however as mentioned above, it could open yourself up to a report of your own; especially if you are derailing the match by constantly demanding reports of other players."

second bullet point under "things to avoid"

ionst0rmJul 24, 20181 votes

Have you ever played in Bronze, silver or gold? Nearly every game someone on one of the teams is asking to report someone else. This is a rule that's not enforced. It's like an MCL provision in Michigan that says a wife cannot lawfully haircut without her husbands permission. That is a 93 day misdemenour that's on the books. However, it is not enforced just like this isn't. There is not a single case I've seen someone get banned/restricted for asking for that. I've been guilty of doing this myself way back when, when i first started this game and not so much as a notification of me being in violation.

Basic math alone, Say the average league player plays 3 games a day. say there are 100,000 players playing. That's 300,000 divided by 10. That makes 30,000 games. The average game length i see in current meta is 30 minutes. Now 30 minutes multiplied by 30,000 games is 900,000 minutes of game play or 15,000 hours of gameplay. The average person works 8 hours a day so 15,000 / 8 hours is 1,875 people. If one person reported every game it would take 1,875 people on a scale of 100,000 players playing 3 games to review these which is not possible thus how I can attest to they do not have the manpower to review these cases. I don't blindly follow FAQ's and well articulated articles. I do research of my own and this is not acceptable. Most players can agree the matchmaking system has been faulted ever since they switched the system to accept 2 roles to keep q times lower for the solo laners or people that only play one lane.

AeroWaffleJul 24, 20183 votes

I'm more inclined to believe both the public message by Riot and a specific Riot that is in charge of the programming behind the behavioral system than you.

Basic math alone, Say the average league player plays 3 games a day. say there are 100,000 players playing. That's 300,000 divided by 10. That makes 30,000 games. The average game length i see in current meta is 30 minutes. Now 30 minutes multiplied by 30,000 games is 900,000 minutes of game play or 15,000 hours of gameplay. The average person works 8 hours a day so 15,000 / 8 hours is 1,875 people. If one person reported every game it would take 1,875 people on a scale of 100,000 players playing 3 games to review these which is not possible thus how I can attest to they do not have the manpower to review these cases.

That was a lot of math and assumptions to counter something that they never claimed in the first place. Nowhere in the post that I quoted or the FAQ does it state that they hand-review every case.

ionst0rmJul 24, 20181 votes

And for that I cannot blame you and respect what you're saying. Example, If i recorded games, formatted them, put them on youtube for you to see would that help? If not that, I can also use my prior recording of individuals and spend some time this weekend when i'm not a work compiling all that I've gathered for you to see through my eyes. Just like everything else in life, people see things from different perspectives and I understand fully without proof my wording is just banter itself. I will surely go back through this weekend and place these on youtube so you can see through my eyes what is going on causing extreme frustration along with letting other players who are being victims of wasting their time and money like myself to come forward and try to get this fixed. No system is perfect but this truly needs to be reviewed up and down.

AeroWaffleJul 24, 20184 votes

Regardless of your own experiences they are a sample size of one from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the information that goes into the decision when the system hands out punishments.

You can't see what their current standing in the system is. You can't see if they previously had poor behavior and if they were on the edge of the next ban. You can't even see if they get handed a chat restriction because the feedback system has been known to be sporadic at best.

You, as one person, get the perspective of a single game of the other person. My own experiences, also a sample size of one, has me reporting very few people in the first place. I just don't see that many people with poor behavior in my PvP games. At the very least it shows that a person's experiences with the game can be vastly different so either case is hardly good proof of how the community as a whole is functioning.

Riot however has all the information and the data across all games.

DearPearJul 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

but you realize there is no way on gods green earth they have the manpower to review every case of grieving with how many games are played?

Not how it works though. Inform yourself, there is a FAQ that explains it well.

{quoted}

It's completely automated. If (X) amount of players report someone for grieving then the system automatically tags the person. If it's a singular person it will be interpreted as that player just had a bad game. I don't know how much more i can do outside of constantly record these games for others to see and ask riot and other league players for answers.

Still not how it works. Not by a long shot.

ionst0rmJul 24, 20181 votes

Screenshot for me in the FAQ where this applies and where the practicality is. Again, players like this i write their names down and i constantly check within a 48 hour period whether they are in games or not and i will spectate to see if there was a delay enough to show a restriction was implemented. Not a single instance have I seen this. If there is proof out there outside of a well articulated FAQ page then I would love to see this. This wouldn't fall under confidentiality nor discloser violations so there should be nothing stopping anyone from proving to me players like this are actually getting punished because I'm not seeing it thus why i'm taking it into my own hands.

AnAggravatedPimpJul 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

What i'm saying is they don't. Every time i've reported for such actions (thus how i've gone from plat back to silver is endless players like this from this watered down pairing system) nothing happens. I check na.op.gg the next 48 hours to see if they are still playing. Not once have i seen a player punished. I agree with your sentiment that they have access to these system but you realize there is no way on gods green earth they have the manpower to review every case of grieving with how many games are played? It's pretty much just a feel good button to hit at the end of the game giving players false hope they'll correct those players.

That's because Riot is careful with banning inters. Because they want to be sure not to ban someone for just having a bad game, real inters last longer and once they get caught they try to find ways to be a nuisance that are harder to detect. But

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/jFwTE8Oj-playing-off-meta-in-ranked-int-feeding-ban?comment=0039

There's just one example of Riot banning someone for griefing. Check the red tracker or I can post a few more links if you want(shits hilarious to me). The system has kinks, it can be improved, but it's working. We as people primarily focusing in 1 negative player as opposed to the other 8 neutral to positive players is the issue, in my opinion. And the echo chamber that is the boards doesn't always help

PaíntchipJul 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Ignore and report for griefing. Riot has access to replays whether we press record or not and they take inting/griefing/trolling more seriously than you expect. They will hav someone manually review a case if such a thing happens.

Flaming them just ruins the game for the other players and gets both of you reported soooooooooo, ignore them, play the best you can and report them in post game

No they don't. I have never once gotten a message about an inter, griefer or troll being punished. I usually just get stuck with them in the next match so they can double dip and still not get punished....but if I say one single thing, "i'm the one that ruins the match".

AneirinJul 24, 20183 votes

No they don't. I have never once gotten a message about an inter, griefer or troll being punished.

The fact that you haven't gotten a message about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are plenty of threads with people complaining about being banned for griefing or inting.

ionst0rmJul 26, 20181 votes

Thank you. You're the type of person I'm looking for. Knowing I'm not the only one having to deal with this. Isn't it ironic these people vehemently defend riot and if they were saying on this forum in game, they'd be taking a ban themselves. The hypocrisy is almost amusing. I'd recommend to you and what i've done with my friends in this very same instance. Refuse to spend another dollar, Euro, Peso, whatever form of currency until this gets addressed at minimum.

AnAggravatedPimpJul 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Thank you. You're the type of person I'm looking for. Knowing I'm not the only one having to deal with this. Isn't it ironic these people vehemently defend riot and if they were saying on this forum in game, they'd be taking a ban themselves. The hypocrisy is almost amusing. I'd recommend to you and what i've done with my friends in this very same instance. Refuse to spend another dollar, Euro, Peso, whatever form of currency until this gets addressed at minimum.

You're ignoring people telling you that you're wrong when I posted in reply to you that riot bans inters with a link to a post of a Red doing just that.

ModEvangeleJul 25, 20183 votes

Nami No post similar to this thread has been deleted on this account by any moderator unless you posted it on a different account. Boards moderators are volunteers, not Rioters. If you wished to discuss any deletions that have happened with a moderator you can join us on our Moderation Discord or make a post on the Discuss the Boards sections regarding it.

Also, posting on the Boards while yes, requires you follow the TOS, also requires you to follow the Universal Rules, which you can find here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/community-moderation/ITFIpNUE

ionst0rmJul 26, 20181 votes

100% it was deleted. I was extremely upset after getting the chat restriction and made sure it was posted and closed the URL and reopened to make sure it was live to get feedback from other players. I've had posts removed before but all had reasoning. This last one didn't. Is what it is.

RallerenPJul 24, 20182 votes

That was definently not a tough decision.

Even if we ignore all terms of service, and the punishment system and all, your decision was still objectively the worst one for the sake of the game.

If someone is trolling you or is playing poorly, do you think they'll stop when you start flaming them? Or will they continue and troll you even harder?

100% of the time it's the second option.

You should have kept quiet, tried to play to the best of your ability. And no, that's not inting. Inting is when you're intentionally feeding. Not just when you are extremely far behind.

It's funny really. So many people like you think that they are verbal geniuses who can destroy others morale over the chat. In reality all you're doing is feeding the trolls. Trolling in itself is not very funny unless someone reacts to it.

On a side note:

The Riot legal team does not have to contact you just because you say so. They can ban accounts and take down posts at their discretion. You don't even have to be in violation of their rules, and they can still 100% legally ban you/take your post down. They could also take this comment down, and I couldn't do anything about it. That's just how the internet works.

ionst0rmJul 26, 20181 votes

Where did you get your law degree from? How far are you into law school? Answer this question and I'll take your comment seriously. Are you an internet lawyer?

I agree they can at discretion, however if you read their terms of service it is clear cut stated what is layed out in arbitration, class actions and lawsuits that certain terms must be met from both parties. If they breach their own terms, this negates those terms opening them up to liability. Thus why whenever a legal term comes up with a conversation with riot they have to back off and refer you to their terms of service "legal" field.

100% it's not the second option. If riot wants to pair players of who are not of the same skill endlessly then we have a problem. Last i checked this is a for profit company. Name me any other company where they have a faulted product and liability does not ensue. Name any business at all where a consumer spend their time and money at a place of business and get sub par services when it can easily be corrected but they try to find the middle ground and punish players who get absolutely sick and tired of dealing with this.

If they had an option to refund players money spent on this game, there would be far less grieving as the trolls would do what they do best and would funnel people out who actually enjoy competition but understand at the same time there is no competition. Flip a coin with the mmr system. One person can and highly does always cost games. Regardless of how you play, this is a team game. If players were paired fairly again there would be no issue.

If you truly do believe it's always the second option, what do you do when this is happening every third game at best if not every other game? Do you just quit the game and sacrifice your money? That's not a good investment in which case the consumer has all rights to be livid.

AneirinJul 26, 20182 votes

Name any business at all where a consumer spend their time and money at a place of business and get sub par services

You don't pay money for the game or the service

ionst0rmJul 28, 20181 votes

So buying skins and champs back in the day doesn't count as spending money? If they accept money they are liable. Yet i just had another game where i double my entire teams cs as adc having just short of 10cs/m and still lose from team feeding their ass off and not understanding the game. You may want to take some business law classes. When the california based company sold out to tencent you may want to read the provisions behind it fyi.

RallerenPJul 26, 20181 votes

Where did you get your law degree from? How far are you into law school? Answer this question and I'll take your comment seriously. Are you an internet lawyer?

I don't have to be a lawyer to understand the ToU. Infact, in the EU it is required for companies to make readable ToUs.

class actions and lawsuits that certain terms must be met from both parties.

Sure, if Riot has engaged in a contract with you, detailing certain terms they have to uphold, then they are legally bound to do so.

Problem is, Riot has NOT engaded in a contract with you that states that they have to do anything. They don't have to give you a satisfiable service. They don't have to provide you with fair matches.

Name any business at all where a consumer spend their time and money at a place of business and get sub par services when it can easily be corrected but they try to find the middle ground and punish players who get absolutely sick and tired of dealing with this.

Highly subjective. You can't prove that Riot has sub-par service for what you paid for, because you haven't paid for any service. This is a free game. They aren't required to give you anything. Except if you purchase Riot Points, in which case they are legally bound to add Riot Points to your accounts.

100% it's not the second option. If riot wants to pair players of who are not of the same skill endlessly then we have a problem.

What are you talking about.

The two options were:

The player stops trolling
The player start trolling even harder.

Those options don't say anything about matchmaking, as even in a 100% fair matchmaking environment, those options would still be applicable. No matter how fair Riot goes, there will always be trolls and people having bad games.

If you truly do believe it's always the second option, what do you do when this is happening every third game at best if not every other game?

I'm not going to pretend I know the actual statistics of your games, but I HIGHLY DOUBT you get trolls and bad players in every other/third game. You can tell me all you want that it's true, I just don't believe you. Those are unreasonable statistics, not based in fact, but in anecdotal evidence. Not only that, but these statistics come from your memory, and the human brain does not have a good track record of providing realistic statistics from anecdotal evidence, from memory.

Anyway, I'll just mute and report. Because me flaming someone will literally only result in the problem getting worse.

Do you just quit the game and sacrifice your money? That's not a good investment in which case the consumer has all rights to be livid.

I don't quit. And all money I've spent, I've spent with the full knowledge and agreement that all transactions are non-refundable. So did you.

Best Vi EarthJul 24, 20181 votes

i mean theres nothing you can really do. i guess try to play off her pokes? assuming see even tries to land them on your lane opponents.

ionst0rmJul 26, 20181 votes

Well said. Now what to do if this is happening once every 3rd or 4th game and it's not poke, it's disrupting wave control. I can't put it on the player as riot is pairing people in games they should never be in. It's when you ask them politely a few times to fix what's going on and they continue to troll then someone can only take so much.