Boards›Player Behavior

Idea on dealing with troll smurfs who say "idc if i get banned, not my main acc"

XinZhao2WinNhao··4 votes·1,808 views

Troll smurfs/toxic smurfs are a problem. They say "its not my main acc idc if I get banned on this acc". So they act toxic no matter what you report them for.

I'm not suggesting IP bans. In fact, I'm against IP bans (it just seems so final, I believe that everyone should have a chance. There was a famous troll who had over 10 accounts banned, and all of a sudden he changed his behavior and his 11th account or so is still playing without bans)

However, I think there's a way to deal with these troll toxic smurfs. If their smurf account is convicted for a really serious form of toxicity such as telling people to kill themselves, hate speech, wishing death on people, threatening people, etc, Riot should find out their main account- the one they play the most on or spend the most money on (the account they actually care about) and ban that account instead of the smurf. That will teach them to not be like "it's not my main acc so i can act toxic i dont carer if i get banned on my smurf".

Most people don't have too many people using 1 IP. If they are on a library or a university it may be harder and you may have to settle for banning the smurf, but for people who play at home there might be like 3 or 4 people at most using that same IP. A good computer algorithm could definitely tell the difference from chatting and playstyles to identify whether they are the same person or not. One thing that computer algorithms are very good at is not identifying verbal abuse (the current robot tribunal isn't really a good idea, sorry, I want a human tribunal for that), but an algorithm is great at telling the difference between 2 people based on their chatting and playstyles and I think that's what the algorithm should be used for.

Tl;dr: Really? This was like 50 words. But anyways. Ban. The. Main. Account.

33 Comments

lolptwo4 votes

How would you find out someone's main account. That's a massive gap you fail you explain. People oftentimes play with multiple people sharing the same computer with several accounts(this is especially true in college). You cannot ban IP adresse or else campuses and libraries would instantly be banned. As well as anyone with a toxic in game roomie. You cannot punish someone who spent money on your game who didn't do anything wrong because of the actions of someone else. That's bordeline illegal, and you can't fish the account out of them by name or else people could just pretend they own an account of someone they want banned or say their friends/roommates account is theirs and get that person's account banned.

TL;DR : There is no plausible way to find out who is playing what account without an actual facecam and too many innocent people could be harmed for no reason.

61939590DEL11 votes

Btw there's not many libraries around anymore, even so sharing accounts is against the rules & i would still go for IP Banned if I was Riot.

lolptwo2 votes

Yes there is, Libraries are huge Clearly you aren't old enough to be in university, or else you'd know the MOST popular spot on Universities capuses are libraries, and some people even book out rooms in libraries to have League 101 teachings and didn't you know there a college League? That means if 1 person in rez or 1 person in the whole library was toxic EVERY ONE in the library would be banned. It simply doesn't work. "there isn't libraries anymore" lmao what the fuck are you talking about

61939590DEL11 votes

I'm 25 and university is not for me. As i said not many anymore only schools will have them. You just gotta think before you type a responds back to me, which you reply makes you look stupid. As for college League, you can learn it all on your own. If people are choosing to go into College league it might just be for experience to get into the game industry, nothing more nothing realistic for future purposes.

AJStarhiker1 votes

{quoted}

I'm 25 and university is not for me. As i said not many anymore only schools will have them. You just gotta think before you type a responds back to me, which you reply makes you look stupid. As for college League, you can learn it all on your own. If people are choosing to go into College league it might just be for experience to get into the game industry, nothing more nothing realistic for future purposes.

Old-style, books-only libraries might be increasingly rare, but there's a lot more to modern libraries than just books.

All the public libraries in my hometown have at least a row of tables (at the smallest branch), if not a computer lab area (but no games) plus wifi that can handle online gaming (bring your own laptop) in addition to books, meeting rooms, and multimedia.

61939590DEL11 votes

Tim Hortons FREE WIFI & you get your coffee. I haven't mention the E-reader haven't I. ^_^

lolptwo2 votes

I don't think you understand you're the only one looking stupid here. Perhaps you should spend more time in a library. Modernized libraries are some of the best places to game. They have Computer labs, the fastest free wifi, and Rows upon Rows of computers. Also absolutely not, just like there is an LCS there is university LCS and College LCS. It's a whole part of E-sports. Going back to the original point. There are THOUSANDS of people playing League from their residences and Libraries in League. If you went to university, you would understand this. The university I attend, is literally packed to capacity around this time of year. Also yes they have full rooms booked out with a bunch of players play League to relax.

61939590DEL11 votes

As far as I know I'm not doing any schooling as of yet, so yea Adults who live by themselves don't wanna waste time going to university to league it up because we usually work in the morning. In Ontario Canada their could be one place to play league of legends, but not enough info for people in my Urban Area to even get into it. So your saying League of Legends is more important than learning what you're passionate about, which is why Most parents Pay for their children to stay @ these residences.

Sona Ping1 votes

Factually false.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

How would you find out someone's main account. That's a massive gap you fail you explain. People oftentimes play with multiple people sharing the same computer with several accounts(this is especially true in college). You cannot ban IP adresse or else campuses and libraries would instantly be banned. As well as anyone with a toxic in game roomie. You cannot punish someone who spent money on your game who didn't do anything wrong because of the actions of someone else. That's bordeline illegal, and you can't fish the account out of them by name or else people could just pretend they own an account of someone they want banned or say their friends/roommates account is theirs and get that person's account banned.

TL;DR : There is no plausible way to find out who is playing what account without an actual facecam and too many innocent people could be harmed for no reason.

Riot already uses an algorithm to determine MMR boosting and sharing accounts which is pretty accurate.

They look at your summoner spells, your typical builds, your chatting style, and a lot more information to identify it.

lolptwo2 votes

All those things are a moot point. There is millions and millions of players who have the same builds/summoner spells, chatting style.

The Reason why MMR boosting is so easy to identify is because the majority of Elo Boosters are Diamond + and AT LOWEST High Plat. So that makes it really easy to identify that a Bronze Silver player didn't become a Diamond 1, Masters player overnight.

However that still gives absolutely no indicator as to what other account that person is playing on. This is why they cannot punish Elo Boosters for their main accounts, but only the account they Elo Boost on, or else I'm sure they would do it.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

All those things are a moot point. There is millions and millions of players who have the same builds/summoner spells, chatting style.

The Reason why MMR boosting is so easy to identify is because the majority of Elo Boosters are Diamond + and AT LOWEST High Plat. So that makes it really easy to identify that a Bronze Silver player didn't become a Diamond 1, Masters player overnight.

However that still gives absolutely no indicator as to what other account that person is playing on. This is why they cannot punish Elo Boosters for their main accounts, but only the account they Elo Boost on, or else I'm sure they would do it.

Yes, but how many people on the same IP have the same build, chatting style, playstyle and summoner spells? Most people play from home where only them or only them and a sibling have the same IP to play league. It should be quite easy to differentiate between 2 people. If they use a large network like a university, I guess it's harder, and Riot may have to settle with just banning the smurf.

And a lot of those trolls will actually tell you their main account, like "I'm just a smurf lol. my main account is diamond 1 and summoner name ______." Just check if he's telling the truth based on builds chatting style, playstyle and summs and whatever else Riot uses to check for mmr boosting and if they are, ban their main account.

If it's indistinguishable, like if they're using a really large network for a university or something, then too bad, I guess you'll have to ban the smurf. But if it's obvious, like there's only 1 person on that IP and all the accounts on that IP use the same item builds, chatstyle, etc, there's no reason not to ban the main.

lolptwo1 votes

For example: I have 2 brothers in this house. You would be surprised how alike we sound, we all have good days and bad days like everyone else but collectively it would have all of our accounts banned if that was the case. We live in a university town and we also have friends come over and we all play together. Both of us play the same roles. We actually learned off eachother. Also we play all roles. It's incredibly hard to distinguish between the two. Also Riot has tried IP bans before and it went horribly. The risk of punishing someone who is completely innocent for someone else is inexcusable and it really just makes them run in circles and takes an incredible amount of work and hours(money) to ban just one main account who's on his smurf. You simply cannot ban IP addresses. That also gives anyone playing in a public place a massive advantage over the general population. People in Residences/Universities would be the most toxic people with no fear of IP bans and a lot of people who live at home with siblings or live off campus would have a harsher penalty.

TL DR: Under no circumstance is it acceptable to punish 1 person for another's behavior in a game where you spend hours and years building up an account and spend money on it. Riot has tried it before and admitted it went horribly. The work to implement a proper system would be insane and the risks would outweigh the benefits all the same.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

For example: I have 2 brothers in this house. You would be surprised how alike we sound, we all have good days and bad days like everyone else but collectively it would have all of our accounts banned if that was the case. We live in a university town and we also have friends come over and we all play together. Both of us play the same roles. We actually learned off eachother. Also we play all roles. It's incredibly hard to distinguish between the two. Also Riot has tried IP bans before and it went horribly. The risk of punishing someone who is completely innocent for someone else is inexcusable and it really just makes them run in circles and takes an incredible amount of work and hours(money) to ban just one main account who's on his smurf. You simply cannot ban IP addresses. That also gives anyone playing in a public place a massive advantage over the general population. People in Residences/Universities would be the most toxic people with no fear of IP bans and a lot of people who live at home with siblings or live off campus would have a harsher penalty.

TL DR: Under no circumstance is it acceptable to punish 1 person for another's behavior in a game where you spend hours and years building up an account and spend money on it. Riot has tried it before and admitted it went horribly. The work to implement a proper system would be insane and the risks would outweigh the benefits all the same.

A good computer algorithm would probably be able to tell the difference between you and your brothers, to be honest.

Everyone has their own tells that a human might not be able to see but a computer can.

IP bans don't work because they don't use that system to tell the difference at all, they just ban the IP. IP bans didn't even try to differentiate. That's why I am against IP bans too. Do you guys even read the OP? I already stated I'm against IP bans.

If a system can find MMR boosters quite accurately, it can definitely find out the difference between you and your brothers' actions (including playstyle, chatting style, behavior, item builds, and even more that we probably don't know about) using a great list of different things. If it's a wrongful ban you can always get your account back, but I have a feeling that the algorithm is good at what it does because I haven't seen many wrongful MMR boosting bans.

Algorithms are not good at determining what is verbal abuse like they're being used for right now. But they are good at telling the difference between 2 people. Algorithms know more about you just by the way you chat than your closest friend probably does. And add your LoL playstyle in there and it's a pretty good indicator.

Look at my match history and tell me that if there were 3 people on the same IP as me, you don't think a well-programmed computer algorithm can tell which one of them is me. Here are some of my tell-tale signs that a human can find to identify my playstle.

-low CS scores in general -high amount of kills, good at kill secured -building multiple ludens -no void staff or last whisper ever (except that once where the enemy team was all armor tanks and I had to buy a lw) -boots of mobis with alacrity enchantment -flash + ignite always -only melee assassins and fighters with a gapcloser (except Karthus once) -mejais on AP champions -movement speed as a priority -movement speed quints -no defensive items -more kills than assists

Now, a computer algorithm can probably tell even more from my playstyle. Compare 50 of my games to 50 games of any 2 other peoples and I'm sure a computer would find a difference.

lolptwo1 votes

You're absolutely correct on all accounts here. However I revert back to "The work to implement a proper system would be insane". It would be a lot of work , money and people would be submitting tickets thousands at a time which would all have to go through a grueling process. In addition they wouldn't be able to release why people got banned or any proof. This would further increase tensions between the community and Riot. They would just say, we found this account to be the main account of an smurf account that is toxic. Everyone would say "that's not my main" and their response would be "we cannot release the details but after an extensive investigation it shows it clearly".

Now even if 1 of the false positives happened where they actually did ban two incredibly similar people. Which is probably a lot more than you'd expect. That's too much, and too much of a headache to deal with. It would be insanely unfair. Imagine if your account got randomly banned because your personality, in-game play matches up perfectly with a toxic smurf? In a game that has a population of ~65million. This would pop up a lot and the risks would be ultimately detrimental to League.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

In addition they wouldn't be able to release why people got banned or any proof. This would further increase tensions between the community and Riot. They would just say, we found this account to be the main account of an smurf account that is toxic. Everyone would say "that's not my main" and their response would be "we cannot release the details but after an extensive investigation it shows it clearly".

This would happen to people accused of MMR boosting and account purchasing too.

Now even if 1 of the false positives happened where they actually did ban two incredibly similar people. Which is probably a lot more than you'd expect. That's too much, and too much of a headache to deal with. It would be insanely unfair. Imagine if your account got randomly banned because your personality, in-game play matches up perfectly with a toxic smurf? In a game that has a population of ~65million. This would pop up a lot and the risks would be ultimately detrimental to League.

Even a normal sized university has about 1000 people. Large universities usually have a different IP address per library or dorm. So let's say there will be 200 people using 1 IP address in a university.

I'm pretty sure if such a system were to happen, the p value for determining a smurf account would have to be about 0.001% or something. That means that an account would have to be 99.999% sure to be the person's smurfs. With 200 people using 1 IP address (and this is assuming that everyone at the university or library plays League) the chances of a false positive is less than 0.2%. So, that means that for 1000 colleges, the false positives will probably below 3. While that seems like a lot, I'm sure the current system which is already in place probably has a higher false positive rate anyways. Which means that the chances of finding a false positive would be low enough to be dealt with individually. Every system has false positives. Tribunal had some too. Even the United States court system has. It's just about keeping the percentage very low. I think this system's false positive rate is actually lower than the current automated verbal abuse detector. Maybe even lower than tribunal.

Identifying people's behavior patterns is one of the very few things I'd trust a computer algorithm with. While identifying verbal abuse may be a horrible endeavor for a computer algorithm because of a lack of context or human emotions, identifying patterns really are a computer's strong suit.

And yes it will take a lot of work and money to make this system accurate enough to be useful. I'm pretty sure many members of the community would be willing to donate money, time and effort in order to make the community less toxic. People who truly care about League will want a system that is accurate and avoid false positives while dealing with the actual offenders. Because currently the League community sadly has a large portion of toxic and hypocritical people who usually use smurf accounts to bully other players. I say it's worth it if it makes the League community less toxic.

By the way, less toxic community = less false reports. Most of the false reports are sent by toxic players who are upset and need someone to blame for their own behaviors. So this cuts back on the false positives we all despise.

Also keep in mind that this system of punishing the main account is only for the truly heinous toxic trolls. Those that wish death on other people, tell people to kill themselves, or use hate speech. People who simply say "gg ez" or "bad game" will get the normal punishment on their smurf account and will not go through this system. (I honestly think Riot should just focus on catching the truly heinous toxic trolls and forget about the people who say "gg ez" or normal trashtalk/bm since "gg ez" and normal trashtalk/bm really offends nobody over 11 years old but I'm sure most of the community will disagree so I'm giving up on that fight.)

Sona Ping1 votes

The systems Riot made can't even tell the difference between an abusive player and someone quoting what the abusive player said, their systems can't even handle champion created walls properly! How the hell can anyone expect them to responsibly handle this?!

Just ban that account, who cares what someone jackass teenager wrote in chat about it.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=QVqTE6Bk,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-12-12T23:52:29.466+0000)

The systems Riot made can't even tell the difference between an abusive player and someone quoting what the abusive player said, their systems can't even handle champion created walls properly! How the hell can anyone expect them to responsibly handle this?!

Just ban that account, who cares what someone jackass teenager wrote in chat about it.

I personally believe automated systems are horrible at determining verbal abuse. I have always disliked the automated system for banning verbal abuse because it lacks context.

But Riot's system has been surprisingly good at determining MMR boosting because identifying patterns is the one thing that computers are really made to be good at.

Sona Ping1 votes

{quoted}

But Riot's system has been surprisingly good at determining MMR boosting [according to whom?] because identifying patterns is the one thing that computers are really made to be good at.

Computers are supposed to be really good at performing a series of calculation and executing operation consistently and accurately but the history of League's patching is testimony otherwise. Do you remember not too long ago when Garen's Judgement was doing excessive amounts of extra damage because it was scaling with his health? I mean, sorry to Riot and all, but based on what has actually happened, putting in a vote of no confidence in the strength or accuracy of their programs is the reasonable position to take on them.
The desired goals are being reached and Riot's choices on these things are strict already. If that account gets banned and they aren't "toxic" on their main then it's "problem solved".

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=QVqTE6Bk,comment-id=000200010000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T02:15:57.745+0000)

The desired goals are being reached and Riot's choices on these things are strict already. If that account gets banned and they aren't "toxic" on their main then it's "problem solved".

The problem is that they will just create another account to be toxic with.

If you banned their main, they lose all the hard work they spent leveling up their main to level 30, all the hard work they spent climbing up the ranked elo ladder, all the money they spent on skins and all the friends they made while playing on that account. They will be like "oh no, I don't want that to happen again. When I make a new account I will behave."

If you ban their smurf they will be like "whatever" and just create another throwaway smurf account that they don't care about and act toxic there.

Sona Ping1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that they will just create another account to be toxic with.

Spoiler: They'll do that anyway.

"They will be like" You are assuming your own conclusions here and that's never reasonable, not just due to the fact that it's already been demonstrated in reality that this won't happen.

Let's think about this... philosophically.

What's the difference? What is the actually difference in punishment, in these scenarios? A player gets reported and the go through the progressing tiers of punishment and if it persists, the account is banned and "all the hard work they spent leveling up their main to level 30, etc" is lost. There is no difference. The terms and rules of moderation and punishment are being applied consistently and, consequently, fairly. In terms of a quote/unquote "legal" perspective, in terms of Crime & Punishment, this means this is what should be kept. Never mind the amply reasonable concerns of moderation not being used fairly; ethically, we'll say.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=QVqTE6Bk,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T02:41:24.144+0000)

Spoiler: They'll do that anyway.

"They will be like" You are assuming your own conclusions here and that's never reasonable, not just due to the fact that it's already been demonstrated in reality that this won't happen.

Let's think about this... philosophically.

What's the difference?

Most people care about the main and the 500 dollars of skins they put in their main as well as the fact that they spent 1000 games to get it up to diamond 5 through hard work. If their main gets banned it's reasonable to assume they will be affected by it and will want to behave the next time they make an account so it doesn't happen again.

Most people don't give a literal **** about the level 15 smurf account they made just to be toxic. They know it's gonna be banned sooner or later and they'll just make another one.

That's the difference.

JARmates2 votes

{quoted}

Troll smurfs/toxic smurfs are a problem. They say "its not my main acc idc if I get banned on this acc". So they act toxic no matter what you report them for.

I'm not suggesting IP bans. In fact, I'm against IP bans (it just seems so final, I believe that everyone should have a chance. There was a famous troll who had over 10 accounts banned, and all of a sudden he changed his behavior and his 11th account or so is still playing without bans)

However, I think there's a way to deal with these troll toxic smurfs. If their smurf account is convicted for a really serious form of toxicity such as telling people to kill themselves, hate speech, wishing death on people, threatening people, etc, Riot should find out their main account- the one they play the most on or spend the most money on (the account they actually care about) and ban that account instead of the smurf. That will teach them to not be like "it's not my main acc so i can act toxic i dont carer if i get banned on my smurf".

Tl;dr: Really? This was like 50 words. But anyways. Ban. The. Main. Account.

Gosh you are worst than any toxic troll I have ever known. You know I suggest you mind your own damn business or stop playing league all together. I hate soft skin punk like yourself who want to ruin the game for everyone. If I ever see you in game, I will block you.

Samus721 votes

IP bans are not effective since most people's IP addresses refresh every couple of weeks.

It would probably involve a lot of time to track down someone's main account. I don't know that Riot would want to dedicate that kind of time to this issue. And there's nothing stopping that person from simply making a new one. It's one of the downsides to free games.

I don't have much of an answer to this other than Riot can only do what they can do. Not very satisfying. But, what are the other options?

Arcade Andrew2 votes

Do it like the whisper app: have a cookie Put cookie in game that only allows one account per device, deletion of account can only be done via email a request in, have secret cookie that prevents making new account in sed device again after deletion...

That or make surfing ban able

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=QVqTE6Bk,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-11T03:27:47.493+0000)

Do it like the whisper app: have a cookie Put cookie in game that only allows one account per device, deletion of account can only be done via email a request in, have secret cookie that prevents making new account in sed device again after deletion...

I like having 2 accounts. I don't troll but it's fun to play with a different set of players.

Samus722 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=QVqTE6Bk,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-11T03:27:47.493+0000)

Do it like the whisper app: have a cookie Put cookie in game that only allows one account per device, deletion of account can only be done via email a request in, have secret cookie that prevents making new account in sed device again after deletion...

That or make surfing ban able

LoL is not a browser. Cookies won't work.

Arcade Andrew1 votes

Are you sure? insert image of cookie here

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

IP bans are not effective since most people's IP addresses refresh every couple of weeks.

It would probably involve a lot of time to track down someone's main account. I don't know that Riot would want to dedicate that kind of time to this issue. And there's nothing stopping that person from simply making a new one. It's one of the downsides to free games.

I don't have much of an answer to this other than Riot can only do what they can do. Not very satisfying. But, what are the other options?

I think banning the main is a good idea. They invested time and money in their main probably so they will care.

GamblerOfLives1 votes

GENIUS

How are not the president of the USA yet?HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?

JARmates3 votes

{quoted}

GENIUS

How are not the president of the USA yet?HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?

If he was the president of the U.S, most of the world would be ban.

Raistlin1 votes

You guys are still playing League of legends and stacking your frustration from the toxic community untill you burst? Well played.

After having lost 20+games in a row with every single one related to someone being afk/feeding, i saw the light, unninstalled, went Smite, and from that point my life, has been awesome :D

I do hope with all my heart that league of legends remains a pit for all toxic and immature players of this world, and that they never migrate to other mobas.

Peace

cuddlykitten41 votes

{quoted}

You guys are still playing League of legends and stacking your frustration from the toxic community untill you burst? Well played.

After having lost 20+games in a row with every single one related to someone being afk/feeding, i saw the light, unninstalled, went Smite, and from that point my life, has been awesome :D

I do hope with all my heart that league of legends remains a pit for all toxic and immature players of this world, and that they never migrate to other mobas.

Peace

Yet, you are still here. Can't deny your true self :)

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