Are you kidding me

Ramen226·Jun 11, 2017·11 votes·810 views

I sent in a support ticket on Wednesday June 7th about a player who was intentionally feeding in over 70 games. I got a response, they politely said they cannot disclose any information about the players account for privacy reasons yada yada yada. Cool. Just linking his account on op.gg should have been fine right? 4 days later and i get this fuck in my game again.

So for discussions sake i won't post his name. But this is going to be another post of someone intentionally feeding on all of their games. But not only did the automated system fail, the person who received my ticket failed to just look up his match history and pass his profile up the line. A process which at most should take no more than 5 minutes.

27 Comments

ModPeriscopeJun 11, 20174 votes

Dang. That seems pretty obvious. Sorry you had to deal with that.

General Esdeath Jun 11, 20174 votes

Yeah Riot tends to be really slow on cases like this and I don't know why. The guy who inted on Dunkey's video wasn't banned for 6 months (possibly more but I stopped checking his op.gg after 6 months)

OnlyYouCanHearMeJun 11, 20174 votes

It took me a while to find him in your match history, but I finally did. Wow. That is an impressive level of inting. The sad thing, is that he actually seems to play decent enough when he gets jungle. I suspect part of what has kept him from being instantly pegged by the system is that he is actually building decent items in quite a few of the matches. There are only a few matches where he was building the classic troll items - like three pairs of boots. And if the system sees someone who is building boots of mobility on Rammus with a Deadman's Plate, that doesn't necessarily look like a trolling build.

It's a good thing that you sent the ticket in to support. Hopefully when they do review this, they will see that this player is not just having "bad matches" and will be able to keep him from ruining any more games. Any Support staff will clearly be able to see things that the system may miss, and Riot is still working to fine tune the feederbuster detection.

Ramen226Jun 12, 20172 votes

LMAO LOOK AGAIN

He didn't actually get jungle in any of those games :X

Kei143Jun 11, 20172 votes

he probably did forward the case to a behavioral specialist to review the case.

The player behavioral specialist probably has a whole stash of other players requiring review, so yours goes into the pile.

Those guys that manual review stuff are probably serverly overloaded, and won't get to you case until 2 weeks - a month.

Ramen226Jun 11, 20171 votes

But how long can it really take to review a case?

Like what's the maximum amount of time you think it could possibly take to review the most shady and gray area account? 20 minutes? Half hour? Because tbh you don't need a "behavioral specialist" to determine that this guy is a shitbag that shouldn't have access to the game.

TerozuJun 11, 20171 votes

Like they have to sith through games, and watch ever single thing happen. most likely go over a couple parts a couple times. So over an hour; per potential feeding game, that adds up.

Ramen226Jun 11, 20171 votes

So going 0/25 in multiple games in a single day while using a troll build.... and they actually have to watch the replay? the fuck?

TerozuJun 11, 20172 votes

For all you know they haven't even reached him yet. Not everyone is such a clear cut and dry case.

Ramen226Jun 11, 20171 votes

Of couuuurrrse not everyone is a clear cut case. I understand that. But why did this case in particular have to be passed onto an analyst? Over 70 games that you could say it's intentional feeding? Multiple games of playing support but going smite nunu to steal jungle camps?

Why did anyone have to analyze this while he's allowed to just continue playing and screw everyone else over?

archerno1Jun 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Of couuuurrrse not everyone is a clear cut case. I understand that. But why did this case in particular have to be passed onto an analyst? Over 70 games that you could say it's intentional feeding? Multiple games of playing support but going smite nunu to steal jungle camps?

Why did anyone have to analyze this while he's allowed to just continue playing and screw everyone else over?

Because different people have different jobs. League has insane playerbase which is still growing. Maybe this guy doesnt need that long to analyze but how many thousands before him do?

Kei143Jun 11, 20171 votes

you assuming that it's the job of Tier1 player support to investigate. It's not. Most of the T1 player supports are off-shore and don't even play the game. So they have to forward it to someone else that has the tools to investigate.
You assume that your case was the only one that got reported like this. T2 player behavior review probably has thousands of players that are queued for review prior to you sending yours in.
They have to manually schedule your report in, instead of follow their regular schedule provided to them by the post game reporting system.

Ramen226Jun 11, 20171 votes

So the people that riot hired for player support may not even play the game? That might be one of the biggest problems of the company if that's true.
It shouldn't be their primary role, but they should have at least some authority in cases like this where it is clear that the person is intentionally feeding. Or at the very least have the ability to tier how clear the case might be. (this guy is definitely intentionally feeding/trolling so they'd mark him as high priority. Some other player might not be nearaly as obvious so they'd mark him as a lower priority.
The post game reporting system is 100% automated, your point is invalid.

Kei143Jun 11, 20172 votes

So the people that riot hired for player support may not even play the game? That might be one of the biggest problems of the company if that's true.

You underestimate the size of Riot, and probably don't understand the job of T1 customer support.

T1 customer support's job is the first line of "defense" when it comes to player questions. These can be technical questions (why am I DCing ?), Player behavior questions (What did I do to get this punishment?), Gameplay questions (Why is Sterak's and Maw's passive the same?), Feedback (GJ Riot), HR questions (What can I do to get a job at Riot), Esports questions (what does TSM mean?).

They have a list of pre-made answers for the most basic questions, if they can't answer it within the list of pre-made answers, then they have to forward the ticket to the proper department.

They don't need to know how to play the game to pick the question that is on their pre-made list and matching it with the closest answers, which they copy and paste it as response. Which is why they may / may not even play the game, and it doesn't matter if they do.

T1 player support only handles answering tickets from the premade answer only and only that. From a business perspective, they have to get through millions of tickets a week. You keep them focused on one thing, they can do that thing faster. You also don't need to pay anyone extra cos they are now trained to do something else.

These guys are like the 1st line of customer service you have for a Printer Company's call center. They don't need to know anything about printers, they just need to be able to match up the customer's questions with their pre-written answers.

It shouldn't be their primary role, but they should have at least some authority in cases like this where it is clear that the person is intentionally feeding.

T2 player support could be technical specialists (that help you troubleshoot your DCing issues), or for your specific enquiry - gameplay review specialists. They still follow a set of pre-written processes of how to review the game, they probably do play the game as well. Their job is to review as many games possible in a day and to dish out punishment. These are specialists within their fields, so he won't be spending time doing technical support and helping people not being able to get the game rendering properly.

at the very least have the ability to tier how clear the case might be. (this guy is definitely intentionally feeding/trolling so they'd mark him as high priority. Some other player might not be nearaly as obvious so they'd mark him as a lower priority.

Your report has no specific priority. It is within the pile of intentional feeding reports that the system / is manually provided to them. They all have the same priority. Your report just goes within that pile and probably will be reviewed in due time.

Plus who is going to prioritize it? Certainly not T1s. They aren't train to do that. T2s? But by the time they review it, might as well dish out the punishment.

The instant feedback system would, but you're talking about a process that is out of the automation here. So toss that idea out of the door. Which is why we always recommend to use the post screen reporting system.

The post game reporting system is 100% automated, your point is invalid.

The system certainly has a large part that is automated, however there are games that are slipped through the system. Those people get a large % of their games reported, yet the automated system doesn't punish them.

That is the time those player's games get sent to a T2 Gameplay review specialist for manual review. With how weak the feedbuster is tuned right now, I won't be surprised that those people are swampped with work.

But if you truly believe that the system is automated, why would you even send in a ticket so T1s need to manually forward it to T2s?

Ramen226Jun 12, 20171 votes

Why is the only job of T1's to copy paste responses that can be found on the support page?
Why aren't/can't T1's trained on how to classify the priority of cases?
Billion $ company that won't use the abundance of volunteers willing to do grunt work (basically anyone that volunteered for the tribunal would also be willing to read and review cases and pass it along to T2's or even become trained to be a T2)

But if you truly believe that the system is automated, why would you even send in a ticket so T1s need to manually forward it to T2s?

Because someone who has been intentionally feeding as far back as his match history goes. And because I was matched with this person twice within a week. Cases like this where anyone can see that the person deserves a ban is definitive proof that the instant feedback system either needs more strict parameters or more human components. And with how many people would become a human component for free or for low cost (5 rp or less per case would be enough to make tons of players want to help out) there's no reason for this kind of case to happen.

Kei143Jun 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Why is the only job of T1's to copy paste responses that can be found on the support page?

Cos not everyone goes to the support page. Plus they have a little bit more information than the support page.

Why aren't/can't T1's trained on how to classify the priority of cases?

T1s sort it, not prioritize it. They send it to the proper game review specialist, who reviews for bad gameplay. The bottle neck is not at the T1s, its at the T2s. If it hits the gameplay review specialist, then it's already "prioritized".

If you want them to do further analysis, then it'll slow down the speed they can dish out tickets. They'll have to get paid more for something they would do maybe ... 5% of the time? Certainly not worth it from a business perspective.

Billion $ company that won't use the abundance of volunteers willing to do grunt work (basically anyone that volunteered for the tribunal would also be willing to read and review cases and pass it along to T2's or even become trained to be a T2)

And with how many people would become a human component for free or for low cost (5 rp or less per case would be enough to make tons of players want to help out) there's no reason for this kind of case to happen.

It's no longer free when you give out rewards. 5 RP is alot as well, and the tribunal had a problem that people would just click "punish" irregardless of whether the case was worth punishing, thus it had a alot of false punishes. Also, the tribunal took forever to punish someone.

There is also no control, no standards. There is a chunk of population that think that having bad games = intentional feeding, when they can just be out played, tilted and making bad decisions.

Your case could be a clear cut case, but the score is only tells one part of the story, there are alot more behind the scenes that happen to analyzing intentional feeding than just the score.

Cases like this where anyone can see that the person deserves a ban is definitive proof that the instant feedback system either needs more strict parameters or more human components.

This I can agree on.

Ramen226Jun 13, 20171 votes

Alright I understand the first 2 points so I think you won on the inexperienced/unqualified personnel debate so I'll concede.

However I did say that having a secondary report system similar to the tribunal could be free or could have a tiny reward around 5 rp per correct case* ( i did foget to mention that it would only be for cases that are proven guilty). And with having stricter parameters for basic punishments there could also be punishments with the tribunal 2.0 system. If you reach above x incorrect votes then your ability to vote with tribunal 2.0 is then revoked.

I would set up the system so that tribunal 2.0 would take the place of T1 player support in that role specifically. So instead of T1's that just take the report and pass it on to a massive pile of reports you would have it go from T1's to Tribunal 2.0 and then to the player behavior specialist. So there is a riot employee that is the final judge in if a player gets banned or not, but tribunal 2.0 would weed out all the false claims.

Btw 5 rp is about 6.5 cents. Which would be a lot if tons of players were to use the system. But it doesn't have to be 5 rp, or any rp at all. It could be 100% free or could have alternate rewards.

Upon further review, I think that a good enough reward people would go for but isn't so much that it'd break riot's bank would be keys/chests. I think the best solution would be to make it that after every X number of votes that resulted in an accurate punishment then the player could have the chance of key fragments dropping increased or could reset the S rank on a champion they own so they can earn a chest on them again. Just imo though.

Kei143Jun 13, 20171 votes

Alrighty, let's get into behavior design.

The first question to ask, what is the purpose of having a system such as what you mentioned.

Is it to punish someone faster? Is it to give more visibility / agency to the players? Is it to save cost?

The tribunal system that you mentioned doesn't really punish anyone faster, cos at the end, a Rioter has to do the final review, so the bottle neck will still be at the T2 gameplay reviewer. What the players can do in your scenario, the Instant feedback system can do already.

For visibility, something like status report cards will probably do a better job. The players will feel that they have agency if they know their reports do something.

There really isn't cost savings either, cos people will still make behavioral reports through support tickets (maybe there will be less if they saw their reports did something). They still need T1 player supports to answer the other questions of other categories (technical support, gameplay questions, etc).

So let's start by defining what you want to achieve here first before offering a solution.

Ramen226Jun 13, 20172 votes

The purpose of the new tribunal would be a filter between T1's and T2's. Currently (or at least the way you've described it) just about everyone that submits a support ticket to bring attention to a player who is griefing, feeding, etc gets forwarded to T2's. So the job of T1's in this specific case is to determine what kind of problem the player submitting the ticket is having, and in this case it is about a toxic player, and then they forward the case to a T2. The problem is that that also means that there will be a lot of false cases presented to the T2. Tribunal 2.0 could help to weed out the false reports thereby reducing the number of cases a T2 has to sort through, thus reducing the amount of time it takes to punish the players who deserve it.

And although I didn't mention it, there could also be a ranking system for the new tribunal. Players who are consistently giving accurate feedback on whether or not a player should be punished would "rank up" and eventually be able to take the place of T2's in some cases. After all, if a player is voting on punishments with a 95% accuracy then they probably don't need even need training to become a T2. And better still, rewards could increase as your ranking increased. So you start off with maybe 1 Rp per accurate vote (or 1 rp per every 3 accurate votes, just an incrementally small starting point) and then they would work up their rankings so they get paid 4-5 rp per accurate vote. And since most cases would take about 20 minutes to complete then their earnings are only about 19.5 cents an hour. And if that is STILL too much (even though they'd be the players that could interact directly with or in place of a T2) you could artificially restrict the number of votes they can cast in a day. So it goes from 19.5 cents an hour to (if you restrict it to only 3 votes a day) 19.5 cents a day. That is less than a quarter a day for people who are CONSTANTLY pumping out the toxic player base.

I just think that the cost to get rid of the toxic player base would be made up with new players that would play the game just from knowing that the company takes bad behavior seriously. I can't tell you how many friends I've tried to get to play league who say they won't solely based off of how toxic they think it is.

So it would be primarily to speed up the process by acting as a filter between T1's and T2's to get rid of the false tickets. E.g. someone sends in a ticket saying "this guy is feeding in my games!!!" when in fact they probably just suck. That report would be removed and a T2 wouldn't have to spend 30 minutes reviewing the profile. And since the time of T2's is wasted less you're technically reducing costs because the T2's are no longer being paid to accomplish nothing.

Kei143Jun 13, 20171 votes

I can buy that idea. I'm gonna keep this inside my bag of "improvements the system can use".

The next step is to weigh this idea with other feasible ideas and see which one should take priority over others.

Ramen226Jun 13, 20171 votes

I just hope someone at riot seriously considers stuff like this they see on the boards. I keep hearing an argument come up that's something along the lines of, "Toxic players still make riot money so they dont ban them. Plus people that rage at the toxic players sometimes gets banned and so if they make a new account they have to spend more money on the game," And while I don't think it's true, I really wouldn't put it past at least one game company to do it. So I just hope to god it isn't riot.

Kei143Jun 14, 20171 votes

Na, that's a conspiracy by the toxics who don't understand the behavior system / how business works.

Riot wants the toxics out of the game, that's why they permaban them. Keeping the toxics around actually make the neutral / positive players quit, and their buying power is more than the toxic .

Ramen226Jun 14, 20171 votes

That's what I'd hope is the actual case. We don't really have hard statistics on this. But many a company have shorted out the long term for a short term cash grab. And I just hope riot isn't doing that because I've seen/heard of a few companies doing that with their games.

Kei143Jun 14, 20171 votes

Even for short term, banning the toxics yield them more money than keeping the toxics.

Scary DoorJun 12, 20172 votes

I have 8 people bookmarked in my browser that int in around 15-25% of their games on average and they are not banned.

It seems that as long as you space it out over the course of about 5-6 games you can int all you want. So long as you're not toxic, play seriously the rest of the time and don't do things that further trigger the system like buying 6 tears or what have you, you won't get banned.