Riot's take on combating trolls

Dark Echoes·Jul 13, 2018·7 votes·3,920 views

It's been a long time since I started playing league, late LATE season 3.... Like, a few days before the season went over to pre-season 4. I'm still not really a veteran to the game in my own mind, but I know my way around, I'm not new anymore. Recently I had my FIRST run-in with the tribunal and was faced with a chat restriction, a complete wipe of my honor progress, and was told that I was not eligible for end of season ranked rewards. While the last point was inherently wrong according to one rioter, it doesn't change the circumstances. I recently played what might possibly be my last game of league ever due to what happened with one toxic player.

I was having fun, the meta was new and exciting, Pyke was a blast to play despite not being the greatest and this game I decided to play him jg, not to try and win but to have fun. At some point in the game, around 10 minutes in our Taric asked me to help out bot lane, and as a good jungler I immediately headed down but Taric and MF had just died, if I waited any longer to attack Sona and Heimer would have escaped as I suspected they saw me coming, so I went in and got both of them. Taric immediately flew into a frenzy of flaming me out hard, such as immediately calling me "idiot" multiple times. I didn't really care about the insults, they weren't really that original but I still had to ask what he was talking about, I didn't comprehend who would be angry that their JG picked off their lane opponents but there I was, in a situation like that.

I am slow to argue in game, but this sheer lunacy pushed me a bit too far and I fought back, by my own admission I shouldn't have fed the troll but what I said in my own opinion was justified, but not necessary and I'm more than happy to serve a chat restriction. However, when asking about this to riot support I got a VERY cookie cutter response, which is the following (And I'm not going to name names here because this isn't a witch hunt and it's not riot support's fault in the end, it's a company wide problem):

Greetings Dark Echoes,

First things first, Here is the FAQ. This will give you the rundown on what the intention is for a chat restriction and how it works. As an aside, it looks like you have 9 games left on your restriction.

Now I do see that you had some players in this game that were not quite friendly and you are right they got quite upset about your play and this seems to have an effect on what you decided to do in this game. We will make sure to look at their accounts as well, But let’s talk about what you did during the game that put you in this place.

I am seeing instances of you arguing with them, insulting them and getting pretty heated with them and not letting this drop. This is not okay to bring this into chat, as chat is ultimately about communicating with your team and not aruging/insulting them.

I get that this would frustrate you to have this penalty on your account, but if you need any clarification on anything to do with this penalty, let me know and I can help you out.

Riot Games Player Support

So.... What I'm seeing from this is that we're not allowed to talk back to trolls and flamers, Toxic people get to do as they please and that the system WON'T find them as the rioter admitted they didn't even look at my game and a bot handled it. There is clearly no penalty for instigating the problem, and I'm sure there was no disciplinary action taken against them. Honestly, alot of my friends still play league, I was having fun with league, I want so badly to praise riot and say good job to them because finally the game was becoming FUN again.... But I don't know if I can continue if this is the system in place. Imagine if you will a scenario where YOU were mugged, you fight back and punch the mugger in the face and continue until they're unconscious, then the police show up and arrest YOU. I know there are others with similar experiences, and I know Riot doesn't listen without a massive uproar, so I expect this to get swept away.... But there's the possibility that my case can be used an example of a system that has been broken for a long time. Where the trolls get away every time and the people who eventually have enough of it and snap ONCE get penalized.

If anyone is wondering why alot of people still leave, this is one of the major reasons. A broken reporting and tribunal system.

25 Comments

Dark EchoesJul 13, 20184 votes

Wasn't really expecting any real traction but after taking a quick glance I honestly knew this would happen. It seems that our advisor friend has neglected to actually read my post as I already admitted I wasn't in the right, never addressed the issue of the instigator not getting any initial correction, the rioter confirming that no action was taken against them despite more reports going to the troll than to myself, and ignoring the obvious fact that if trolls were banned by the reporting system there wouldn't be one in..... every other game. Then again I, once again, knew that there would be at least one individual who just wants to play devil's advocate and doesn't really make any original points. Instead of just saying don't do anything and suck it up, why are we not thinking about why does Riot LET this repeatedly happen game after game after game after GAME when one of the regular people who don't flame consistently defends them self one time and BOOM instant punishment.

On the note of "just mute them", yeah cool that works but eventually you'll just mute everyone every game for risk of that one flamer, and I've met some great people through league in game chat. Why are these individuals allowed to determine what we do every time, they push everyone ELSE out of in game chat and Riot continually does nothing.

On the note of not being a victim once you retaliate that's just.... incorrect. If you retaliate back with all-caps screaming and personal attacks that's uncalled for, no doubt, but the inability to say anything without risking being the one to receive punishment is abhorrent.

I'm all for an open dialogue about this but just telling people, "Mute or don't complain" isn't going to fix anything.

Imperial PandaaJul 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Echoes,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=IXkUGgf8,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-13T20:33:25.404+0000) , the rioter confirming that no action was taken against them despite more reports going to the troll than to myself.

I wanna see the screen shot of the rioter saying that.

LeagueOfShadeJul 15, 20182 votes

Wait wait wait. So reacting back is okay? Since when. Even in real life reactionary punishments are a thing. If I yell at you and you shove me that's not okay. If you throw a pole at me, and I shoot a weapon back, thats not okay. The many things like self defense imply that you have no avenue of escape, sorry to tell you this you have an avenue of escape in this game, its called the mute button.

Also it's none of your business if the player gets punished, your business ends at the report button, pressing boxes, pressing okay.

If you honestly can't handle flame then you might as well mute everyone or just not play. Sorry but why should my games get ruined because you and your bot laners are having a sapt. I'd report both of you and ignore you both.

I AM VBADJul 13, 20183 votes

that is indeed their philosophy. do not fight back with bullys trolls or ragers because words can not hurt you. only mute and report.

it is very unsatisfying because we all know if we mute and report it is extremely unlikely that anything will happen to them. so you have to feel bad and weak and they get to feel powerful and like they beat you because you didnt even have the guts to fight back.

you are not even allowed to tell them you are muting and reporting them because somehow even that is considered toxic. if you play by riots rules it is extremely emasculating

their idea is that if they allow you to flame back then now the other person feels justified in flaming back at you and it is a huge mess of spreading toxicity. it can be impossible to sort out who even started it. so they believe the only way is to punish any and all 'toxicity'.

its a bad idea and a deeply flawed system. but they are trying their best to do a good thing.

ModPrandineJul 13, 20183 votes

First of all the Tribunal doesn't exist anymore: the Instant Feedback System (IFS) is what handles punishments now. Second off the Riot Support rep already did a good job explaining to you why retaliating against poor behaving players isn't okay and why the punishment will stay, and even said that the other players would be investigated as well. It's not a cookie cutter response by any means, it's just not the answer you wanted to hear.

Your mugging example doesn't work because the only thing in danger in the game is your ego and pride, not your life. Trolls want to get a negative reaction out of you and they want to drag you down with them, which in this case they did. "They started it" doesn't work because everyone is responsible for their own behavior. To use a better example imagine you're at a bar and someone is verbally abusing and harassing you. Do you:

A) Retaliate with verbal abuse and harassment of your own. or B) Ignore it and report them to management.

If you chose A then you can expect both of you to get in trouble and thrown out, whereas with B you can ensure that only they get in trouble and thrown out instead. It's the same thing in-game where choosing A lands you both in trouble while choosing B only lands them in trouble.

Next time if someone is behaving poorly in chat then just mute, report and move on. If they're gameplay trolling then try to work around them to the best of your abilities, report them and move on. Also, if you must rage then do so at the screen instead of in the chat to avoid compromising your teams chances of success. If you must respond though then do it in a mature and respectful manner but know when to stop. Both ways don't give them the reaction they want and chances are they'll stop once they realize that (not always but sometimes).

Stevey2Jul 13, 20187 votes

{quoted}

First of all the Tribunal doesn't exist anymore: the Instant Feedback System (IFS) is what handles punishments now. Second off the Riot Support rep already did a good job explaining to you why retaliating against poor behaving players isn't okay and why the punishment will stay, and even said that the other players would be investigated as well. It's not a cookie cutter response by any means, it's just not the answer you wanted to hear.

Your mugging example doesn't work because the only thing in danger in the game is your ego and pride, not your life. Trolls want to get a negative reaction out of you and they want to drag you down with them, which in this case they did. "They started it" doesn't work because everyone is responsible for their own behavior. To use a better example imagine you're at a bar and someone is verbally abusing and harassing you. Do you:

A) Retaliate with verbal abuse and harassment of your own. or B) Ignore it and report them to management.

If you chose A then you can expect both of you to get in trouble and thrown out, whereas with B you can ensure that only they get in trouble and thrown out instead. It's the same thing in-game where choosing A lands you both in trouble while choosing B only lands them in trouble.

Next time if someone is behaving poorly in chat then just mute, report and move on. If they're gameplay trolling then try to work around them to the best of your abilities, report them and move on. Also, if you must rage then do so at the screen instead of in the chat to avoid compromising your teams chances of success. If you must respond though then do it in a mature and respectful manner but know when to stop. Both ways don't give them the reaction they want and chances are they'll stop once they realize that (not always but sometimes).

You sit there all high and mighty and act like only the victim can compromise the teams chance of sucsess while, if they did what you suggested. Running away from the insults, harassmenet and belittlement and muted them without a word, the troll will move onto someone else in the team and they'll get punished or tilt and the chances will decrease anyway. This is unacceptable and hte troll needs to be shut down and silenced asap, the team will already be playing a 4 v 5 at this point anyway.

also venting frustratiaons and sharing them with your team is a very important teamwork based exercise as they can help give advice or motivate you, so not "shouting at your screen" is not the best opition and venting frustrations should NOT be a punishable exercise.

ModPrandineJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You sit there all high and mighty and act like only the victim can compromise the teams chance of sucsess while, if they did what you suggested. Running away from the insults, harassmenet and belittlement and muted them without a word, the troll will move onto someone else in the team and they'll get punished or tilt and the chances will decrease anyway. This is unacceptable and hte troll needs to be shut down and silenced asap, the team will already be playing a 4 v 5 at this point anyway.

Yes the troll makes the game a 4v5 (or 2v3 if playing on TT) but responding back to them with insults of your own then makes it a 3v5 (or 1v3 if on TT), minus each additional person that feeds the troll, which in turn makes it that much harder to actually win the game. I know it's difficult, but if people don't negatively respond to the troll or give them the negative reaction they want then only the troll will get in trouble, and chances are that the troll will give up trying to troll and actually play the game properly instead (not always but sometimes).

also venting frustratiaons and sharing them with your team is a very important teamwork based exercise as they can help give advice or motivate you, so not "shouting at your screen" is not the best opition and venting frustrations should NOT be a punishable exercise.

People play the game to have fun, and having to listen to you rage and scream at the top of your virtual lungs in chat during the game is not fun, hence my suggestion of just yell and rage at the screen if you must vent your frustrations. You still get your anger out that way and you don't force your teammates to listen to you rage. If you wish to discuss some strategy with your team then you can do it without resorting to insults and harassment. but if the only "strategy" you want to discuss is how much someone is bad then just don't bother. To quote Chermorg:

It being the internet doesn’t change the fact this is a game people play to enjoy, not to be flamed for every little tiny mistake.

tn5421Jul 13, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Yes the troll makes the game a 4v5 (or 2v3 if playing on TT) but responding back to them with insults of your own then makes it a 3v5 (or 1v3 if on TT), minus each additional person that feeds the troll, which in turn makes it that much harder to actually win the game. I know it's difficult, but if people don't negatively respond to the troll or give them the negative reaction they want then only the troll will get in trouble, and chances are that the troll will give up trying to troll and actually play the game properly instead (not always but sometimes).

People play the game to have fun, and having to listen to you rage and scream at the top of your virtual lungs in chat during the game is not fun, hence my suggestion of just yell and rage at the screen if you must vent your frustrations. You still get your anger out that way and you don't force your teammates to listen to you rage. If you wish to discuss some strategy with your team then you can do it without resorting to insults and harassment. but if the only "strategy" you want to discuss is how much someone is bad then just don't bother. To quote Chermorg:

I see that you neatly sidestepped his comment that trolls aren't punished. We all know that they aren't. Riot only cares about punishing the victim, and this needs to change.

ModPrandineJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I see that you neatly sidestepped his comment that trolls aren't punished. We all know that they aren't. Riot only cares about punishing the victim, and this needs to change.

Trolls and inters do get banned but because they're getting smarter about how they avoid detection (and because Riot wants to try to avoid punishing innocent players as much as possible) it's harder to catch them in the act compared to simple chat-related offenses. Gameplay related offenses when proven to be on purpose are assigned a 2-week ban as the first punishment. In case you don’t believe me on this point here are a couple examples of gameplay trolls being banned. Yes it’s just a few examples, but it proves that they do get punished.

Also, you're no longer a victim when you retaliate back against a poor behaving player.

xXRaichopXxJul 14, 20183 votes

Why do you keep trying to defend Riot?

ModPrandineJul 14, 2018

{quoted}

Why do you keep trying to defend Riot?

Because I see no reason to doubt how they handle player behavior currently, especially when there's plenty of evidence showing that their PB systems while imperfect do work. I don't always agree with what Riot does, most notably the removal of Dominion as a permanent game mode or the retiring of the free skin promotions, but in terms of Player Behavior I do agree with them.

Now my fellow armsman I ask you: Why do you have a problem with how Riot handles Player Behavior?

LeagueOfShadeJul 15, 20181 votes

My only complaint is that it's not quick enough at times. I had the same toxic person in three games in a row, reported them in all three games, and got to a fourth and dodged. (This is on my main a long while back.) Now I know the systems come a bit of a ways but I'd want a thing that says "Oh hey, this guy got reported by the same group/person for multiple games in a row, maybe needs a bump on the review que."

Other than that, good system, want tribunal improved and back. Liked looking at the ways to not play the game on a weekend or on a break. XD

ModPrandineJul 15, 2018

{quoted}

My only complaint is that it's not quick enough at times. I had the same toxic person in three games in a row, reported them in all three games, and got to a fourth and dodged. (This is on my main a long while back.) Now I know the systems come a bit of a ways but I'd want a thing that says "Oh hey, this guy got reported by the same group/person for multiple games in a row, maybe needs a bump on the review que."

Other than that, good system, want tribunal improved and back. Liked looking at the ways to not play the game on a weekend or on a break. XD

There's always room for improvement, and it can and should definitely do a better job at punishing players quicker. However in regards to the Tribunal, it was retired because:

It was slow to get and process cases, and some cases we did get were often for things that occurred months ago.
Some people only spammed punish/pardon rather than accurately judged cases.

With the community as big as it is now I honestly don't see any feasible way for it to come back and work efficiently and quickly enough compared to the IFS, a system that was built in-part with Tribunal feedback and data.

P.S. People like me and Ulanopo (the ones with the fancy name tags and symbols) are simply volunteer community moderators who help out around the forums in some of our spare time.

LeagueOfShadeJul 15, 20181 votes

The fact that someone instantly down voted you pretty much sums up the need for the removal of the down vote I think. You literally answered all my questions with a response most people should be satisfied with, maybe a system to analyze down votes is in order like the one that detects report spams?

Also RIP my favourite activity to do on here, enjoyed it while it lasted.

ModPrandineJul 15, 2018

{quoted}

The fact that someone instantly down voted you pretty much sums up the need for the removal of the down vote I think. You literally answered all my questions with a response most people should be satisfied with, maybe a system to analyze down votes is in order like the one that detects report spams?

Also RIP my favourite activity to do on here, enjoyed it while it lasted.

No one downvoted me (yet), I just like to remove the auto-upvote from my posts to get a better idea of who likes/dislikes my posts. It's not perfect I know but it's something at least.

Stevey2Jul 13, 20184 votes

[deleted]

Imperial PandaaJul 13, 20181 votes

~~I mean, I'm a college graduate who regularly has to throw people out of his work place and I don't seem to have any issues with the game or system. So yeah...

Riot refuses to ban Tyler1? Damn, so all 20 or so of those accountd he got permad don't actually exist and it was a long con the whole time? I mean, they un ID'd banned him, letting him have thr ability to stream again. Keep in mind, he can verbally say whatever the fuck he wants. If he isn't toxic in game chat then no problems. If he isn't reported then no problems.

And venting and ranting can get you removed from competitive games too if the official decides.~~

Welp the comment is gone. Scratch it all.

backlashshadowJul 13, 20186 votes

This is relevant how? ^

Imperial PandaaJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted} what sort of demographic is Riot even appealing to here? Nerdy college drop out wimps who have no backbone and run away from confrontation even if they're forced too and have a will of iron? its unnatural. The sort of super humans riot expect to be populating their game does not exist.

Based on what this guy said.

ModUlanopoJul 13, 20182 votes

First off, dial it back a bit. This doesn't need to be heated or personal.

This is unacceptable and hte troll needs to be shut down and silenced asap

That's what the mute button is for. Without being able to harass you, the troll loses their power to make things worse.

What you are forgetting or misunderstanding is that responding to the troll by adding to toxicity doesn't help. More time is wasted and it has an effect on the people who are, you know, just trying to bunker down and play the game.