Can the community final agree that Intentional feed…

LegendmakerGX · 2017-01-02T03:25:33.562Z

"Im A ID AIR A" (Lets call him Air for short) just recently posted a picture where it shows over 20 games of intentional feed and he was not instantly ban until he hit the 20 purposely fed game mark, this is pure proof that Lyte did a horrible job for the position he held. There is no excuse of how a single person feeds over 10 games and not get ban. For FK sake the dude has has 0 kills and 0 assist with 10 death in over 90% of his games with no CS, wtf else do they actually need to do to get detected for intentional feed ban? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/ggFhEk8d-player-ruining-60-ranked-games-by-queuing-up-with-a-bot I made a post 30 days ago where a guy who wasn't a bot intentionally walk into turrent and fed on purpose 7 games in a ROW. This guy purposely fed in a ROW even with the proof and submitting a ticket to Riot support team and telling them about chat how he says he won't even get ban it still wasn't enough to get Riot to actually do anything. (How do I know? I check to see if he does actually get punish to prove to Ulnaloo who is board admin that Riot support does nothing when you submit these type of ticket, to this very day he is still playing and still has honor because if he does get punish his honor would had reseted). http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/sNjGrJf0-riot-our-intentional-feed-system-detect-and-ban-feeders-usually-after-1-game?comment=000500010000 No Rioter ever reply to these post showing how a person can go 10 intentional fed games and not get ban because they think if they ignore the post it will just go away. <<This is the pure B.S tactic of Rioters who work on report department or when they get called out, they think if they don't reply to the post then the problem will go away. Lyte worked on this with his department for over 3 years (report system and intentional feed detection). I know that this is not all Lyte fault but he was the HEAD of this department so this system and people who worked on this system was under his watch. I am glad he left Riot games but we're stuck with the system he help built which is clear proof that it is not even good. Yes I understand that there will be flaws in the system but there is no way a system can be this stupid to not tell when a person feeding goes 0 kills 0 assist with over 10 death and no CS in over 7-10 games to not get detected for flagged for intentionally feeding.

PlanetWarwickJan 2, 20172 votes

See, it's all about image. If the world were to see a US president declare he was going to build a wall across the borders of an "open, welcoming country" they would be disgusted. Same here, if the players found out that there was an int feeder on the loose, they'd be disgusted. Nobody likes losing when it's completely out of their control, and this is a perfect example of it. You have to set a positive picture. You might get thousands of fake ads on getting rich quick, but the day a genuine one comes and you dismiss it, you've really missed out. To apply this, there might be thousands of complete BS reports coming to you daily, but when you create a copy paste response and someone exposes that to the entire league community, what happens? What happened when trump got declared pres? The other countries died of laughter. Likewise, the people seeing this disregard the fact that you may get thousands of fake appeals, they'll think riot support sucks even though there's a reason you use a copy paste. I'll admit that you have a hard job, but you volunteered for it.

ModUlanopoJan 2, 20173 votes

I'm not in Player Support. Reports don't "come to me" at all.

LegendmakerGXJan 2, 201712 votes

I have no hate on you ULANOPO (Sorry for getting your name wrong and my bad usually everyone call board management "board admins")I believe you are doing your best to actually reply to the players but the part you say " other than report and move on." when no action is being done is a problem. You must have seen (Air) post where a bot fed over 20 games in rank and was not even ban until he hit the 20 match mark of feeding over 20 games. Are we just going to report and do nothing while he is a bot make another account and feed 20 matches to take action and to see how horrible this Intentional feed system is?

If a person like that can feed over 15 games up till 20 and not get banned then there is a problem that we need to get ATTENTION to Riot. Where is a single Rioter who works on the player/behavior which I believe also work on intentional feed system at? (I know they are on vacation) But in my old post which was top of the board was not even replayed to by any of the Rioters who work in the department. They seriously must have time to reply because they reply to other players post on the board about why a person account is banned, so why don't they have time to reply to a post which was top on the board where there is a serious flaw in the system?

Riot has a issue with never replying about criticism of their game or flaw, You guys do (Senior Arbiter) but that should not be your job of communicating with the community on a game system matter which you guys don't work on. You can give your side or opinion 100% you are allowed to do that but you guys (S-A) are not Riot workers who work in the department, a Rioter who work in the department should actually talk to us and tell us what they are going to do.1 year ago ever since Lyte release the system there has not been a single update to the system or anything that tells us what they will improve on (except for saying how the system is working and it is getting the job done).

ULANOPO I don't hate you and I actually love how you are the only one to reply to the players but this is a problem that a Rioter in this department needs to come out and talk to us about. Not go silence on the players about this issue and wait for it to blow off.

ULANOPO you are one of the coolest guys who actually does reply to the player base, I've seen your other reply talking with the community which is why you are one of my favorite (S-A) but some times a Rioter needs to do this so the player base can know what update they will do or what they plan on improving for the future.

ModUlanopoJan 2, 20177 votes

My point is that there are always going to be cases that slip through the system. At some point, you're going to have to accept that, especially while FeederBuster is still basically in beta.

Years from now, someone will complain "this guy fed for three games before the system caught him! That's unacceptable!" And the reason that will happen isn't that Riot doesn't care. It's because they value preventing false positives over preventing false negatives and tune the system accordingly. You can see it in the Instant Feedback System, which is far more sophisticated and complete than FeederBuster.

xReadyPlayerOnexJan 3, 20173 votes

{quoted}

My point is that there are always going to be cases that slip through the system. At some point, you're going to have to accept that, especially while FeederBuster is still basically in beta.

Years from now, someone will complain "this guy fed for three games before the system caught him! That's unacceptable!" And the reason that will happen isn't that Riot doesn't care. It's because they value preventing false positives over preventing false negatives and tune the system accordingly. You can see it in the Instant Feedback System, which is far more sophisticated and complete than FeederBuster.

3 games? I think we'd all agree that 3 games is about where it should be. But that doesn't seem to be the case. You seem to be playing devil's advocate for no other reason than it can be played.

ModUlanopoJan 3, 20174 votes

You seem to be playing devil's advocate for no other reason than it can be played.

Or maybe, just maybe, I genuinely disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zcVnNwAHys

I feel there's a lot of this going on.

General Esdeath Jan 2, 20171 votes

third party websites

It looks like op.gg, which is pretty reliable. And cherry picking isn't even viable here, as we can see it's all one screen shot from the website. Consecutive feeding.

It's clear as day he's feeding. But Lyte's system can't detect it (probably because he's not using chat, which this system praises as the ultimate evidence) and took at least 9 games to do something about it, when in reality it should only take 4 or 5 max when they're back-to-back like this.

ModUlanopoJan 2, 20174 votes

I wasn't maligning op.gg. The point was more that it's a catch-22.

On the one hand, we can't allow name-and-shame on the boards because of the harassment that would ensue.

On the other, not being able to know what region and rank they're in cripples our ability to assess the case.

I have a strong suspicion that the person mentioned in the OP should be banned, but I wouldn't feel comfortable calling for him to be banned without a lot more information. Make sense?

General Esdeath Jan 2, 20172 votes

I think it's fine to name as long as you have proof. If I have a video of someone telling me to kill myself, what's wrong with naming? And if you know the name then OP.GG will tell you every server with someone with that name so you can check and match the game history. And it's not a jab at you, it's more that Lyte's "perfect system" has so many visible flaws while Tribunal was removed when it was easily fixed.

ModUlanopoJan 2, 20173 votes

If I have a video of someone telling me to kill myself, what's wrong with naming?

We have an obligation not to open players up to harassment. People would see that "Riot didn't do enough" and a certain number would take matters into their own hands. It's always the same: the consequences vastly outweigh the benefits.

And it's not a jab at you, it's more that Lyte's "perfect system" has so many visible flaws while Tribunal was removed when it was easily fixed.

This is a line of thought I think deserves its own thread. You should make that thread.

General Esdeath Jan 2, 20171 votes

a certain number would take matters into their own hands

I feel that's a fine system, which is why I liked tribunal. If nobody in the community was offended by some insult like "Bronze" then it wouldn't be a report option people sometimes abuse when they're salty (not saying it is). But Riot themselves can't be held to manage a community of millions alone. I'm more shocked at how when people present visible evidence (Like Dunkey's quitting video where he showed the Malphite intentionally feeding) nothing is done about it.

swordofsunJan 2, 20171 votes

I've been wondering and you seem to be the person to ask who might know the answer. I'm guessing there's a time frame for game reviews? Like, all of these were within one day, as is usually the case on these posts. Do you know if maybe everything gets logged and then sent to someone else to manually review?

It seems like banning for feeding would be something that would require a manual review, which takes time, so I was thinking it was probably a 'flag all these for X team to look at' instead of a 'You went 0/15 six games in a row - auto ban' type of deal.

Anyways, you seem knowledgeable and I was wondering if you knew more about the review and banning process for feeding.

Thanks!

ReohareJan 2, 20174 votes

{quoted} The truth is, millions of people play every day while experiencing little to no toxicity. I can't even remember the last game of mine where someone intentionally fed and that anecdote is just as valid as a carefully cherry-picked set of matches.

Are we talking about the same game?

ElikainJan 2, 20172 votes

We are talking about the same game. Riot works with a lot bigger sample size and you with just a few hundred games at most. They can paint a bigger picture that's more close to the reality while us players can only assume things. And there's a huge difference between an assumption and proof that's backed up with actual statistics.

Everyone hates feeders. No doubt about it. But expecting that Riot should remove a player that's personally offending you is just plain nuts. Ulanopo is right.

ReohareJan 3, 20171 votes

I didn't see any statistics and they will never be made public so, yes, we can only assume things.

He said he experience little to no toxicity (his personal experience), while I experience it at least in 50% + of my matches.

I also didn't say he isn't right. I just think that his statement is a little too exaggerated just to prove the point.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 5, 20173 votes

Oh yeah how can we forget about riots famous "data". That famous data that brought us dynamic Q and ruined ranked for the last and this season. Riots data showing us everyone loves dynamic Q and premades NEVER have a higher chance of winning cough cough. Riots data that certain champs throughout the years are perfectly fine. And so on and so on.

ElikainJan 5, 20172 votes

Oh yeah how can we forget about riots famous "data".

Let me get something out of the way first: You believe the data and always reference a third party site that takes their data from Riot's API as proof that something is broken and when we talk about Riot's data here, their data isn't accurate anymore?

All of the data you have on the champion's performance on any third party site comes directly from Riot. And Riot's API doesn't deliver all the data, many other detection tools are used by the developers themselves to track various things that don't need to be in the API. Sometimes this data paints a bigger picture on why a champion might be overperforming/underperforming and Rioters do come here an usually answer the questions on why they reached a certain decision or are moving in a certain direction.

I can't take you seriously anymore because Riot's data seems to be only good when it validates your beliefs but when we need to talk about the real issues on why something feels off in some way, then it's Riot that doesn't have the "right" data... Please spare me your confirmation bias.

ModUlanopoJan 2, 20172 votes

That's what they tell me, yes.

Z3braJan 2, 20176 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to be honest, I don't put any stock in these "Riot doesn't care about feeding" or "Riot sucks at detecting feeding" because they always seem to find a few games on a third-party website, strip them of context and claim that this is the reality of League. The truth is, millions of people play every day while experiencing little to no toxicity. I can't even remember the last game of mine where someone intentionally fed and that anecdote is just as valid as a carefully cherry-picked set of matches.

Here's the thing, though. Other than doing your civic duty of reporting, nothing about this affects you in any way. This guy isn't ruining your games. Yeah, you can be offended by the idea of him, but sooner or later you have to let that go. Riot is not perfect and the longer you demand they are and the more stridently you insist on a specific outcome, the more frustrated you will become.

Ulanopo,

I understand you probably deal with huffy people all day and are a volunteer (been there done that on a different game), but please hear me out when I say that it's about cause an effects and that denying/underplaying the impact of that only makes problems like this worse.

When these people aren't detected and aren't forced to reform within a reasonable amount of time it WILL add up over several accounts. I don't know where you are playing or how often you are playing, but down here in my elo there is NOTHING but trolls. I could easily, easily, easily, easily, EASILY show you how simple situations devolve into toxicity/intentional feeding every 2-3 games for me some weeks. WHERE are you playing these matches where your teammates are only a "little" toxic or show no toxicity? Should I start documenting these things myself to show how bad this is in league?

We aren't getting a response from riot, we aren't getting feedback through the report system, and we STILL get tons and tons of toxic/intentional feeders in our games, and your answer is summed to as "just put up with it." I lack better terms, so sorry if this comes off as crass, but I feel you should know that your statement comes off as way out of touch.

For every asshole like this who just feeds their ass off intentionally or throws the game, not only does it waste time of people like me who have limited freetime to relax/try league but it also is likely to waste the time of somebody else.

I absolutely respect Riot for wanting to reform people and I imagine there are several cases who did manage to (I played with a few players like that, gifted them skins)

But it is irresponsible and stupid that they don't have to try sooner, and there is no gain in denying that. There is no gain in denying that this negatively effects the game, and it is absolutely widespread and a problem. That isn't asking Riot to have perfection, that's asking Riot to curb the troll problem because it is bluntly out of control right now. They would like one of the most played games in the world right now to actually do something about these people before they ruin 20 games. If we assume 20 games last 30 minutes or something, that's 10 HOURS OF DAMAGE MADE BY JUST ONE PERSON.

How many more people are there doing this? Every time a troll pre-empts the report system it's with "So what? Riot won't do anything." What is Riot doing about this? We keep being met with silence and now the only response is from a volunteer who says "it's not as bad as it seems." I'll add what my friend said to me once: It's not just that the problem exists, it feels like Riot is allowing it to exist. It feels like nothing is being done. How are we supposed to think something is being done when we can, under no circumstance, see any change? For as long as that continues, people are going to get upset, and for as long as people stay upset, people are going to remember these and their personal situations and stack them on top of eachother until they either go "vigilante justice", quit, or explode at Riot.

xReadyPlayerOnexJan 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Ulanopo,

I understand you probably deal with huffy people all day and are a volunteer (been there done that on a different game), but please hear me out when I say that it's about cause an effects and that denying/underplaying the impact of that only makes problems like this worse.

When these people aren't detected and aren't forced to reform within a reasonable amount of time it WILL add up over several accounts. I don't know where you are playing or how often you are playing, but down here in my elo there is NOTHING but trolls. I could easily, easily, easily, easily, EASILY show you how simple situations devolve into toxicity/intentional feeding every 2-3 games for me some weeks. WHERE are you playing these matches where your teammates are only a "little" toxic or show no toxicity? Should I start documenting these things myself to show how bad this is in league?

We aren't getting a response from riot, we aren't getting feedback through the report system, and we STILL get tons and tons of toxic/intentional feeders in our games, and your answer is summed to as "just put up with it." I lack better terms, so sorry if this comes off as crass, but I feel you should know that your statement comes off as way out of touch.

For every asshole like this who just feeds their ass off intentionally or throws the game, not only does it waste time of people like me who have limited freetime to relax/try league but it also is likely to waste the time of somebody else.

I absolutely respect Riot for wanting to reform people and I imagine there are several cases who did manage to (I played with a few players like that, gifted them skins)

But it is irresponsible and stupid that they don't have to try sooner, and there is no gain in denying that. There is no gain in denying that this negatively effects the game, and it is absolutely widespread and a problem. That isn't asking Riot to have perfection, that's asking Riot to curb the troll problem because it is bluntly out of control right now. They would like one of the most played games in the world right now to actually do something about these people before they ruin 20 games. If we assume 20 games last 30 minutes or something, that's 10 HOURS OF DAMAGE MADE BY JUST ONE PERSON.

How many more people are there doing this? Every time a troll pre-empts the report system it's with "So what? Riot won't do anything." What is Riot doing about this? We keep being met with silence and now the only response is from a volunteer who says "it's not as bad as it seems." I'll add what my friend said to me once: It's not just that the problem exists, it feels like Riot is allowing it to exist. It feels like nothing is being done. How are we supposed to think something is being done when we can, under no circumstance, see any change? For as long as that continues, people are going to get upset, and for as long as people stay upset, people are going to remember these and their personal situations and stack them on top of eachother until they either go "vigilante justice", quit, or explode at Riot.

Well fucking said.

ModUlanopoJan 3, 20174 votes

You know, back in the TBI days we used to have a rule that we wouldn't discuss EUW Tribunal cases because they would vote to punish based solely on KDA. It wasn't the way the Tribunal was supposed to work, but that was the culture for them at the time.

There was also the time when Lyte asked people to try and remember how many of their last 10 games included toxicity. The average reply was 6-7, while the actual amount of toxicity was 0-1.

Observation bias is a thing. So is the desire to necrotize the player base.

I had a long day at work, so maybe I'm not being especially clear. From where I sit, the demand to punish quicker and for less is a beast that can never be sated. There will always be people ginning up outrage to whip the mob into a frenzy.

That's why I think these feeding threads are effectively pointless. The Instant Feedback System took a long time to even become effective and it still has a long ways to go, but things are better. Riot is working on it and, while I agree that they could give us more and better updates, I can also see their reluctance, given how the community has responded in the past. We'll get there... eventually.

If I can be permitted a brief Appeal to Authority / anecdote: I have been around since about midway Season 1 and the community is much better than it used to be, especially in comparison to my experiences with DOTA/DOTA2. That's why I have faith in the process and why I get frustrated with people who claim that reporting does nothing.

Z3braJan 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You know, back in the TBI days we used to have a rule that we wouldn't discuss EUW Tribunal cases because they would vote to punish based solely on KDA. It wasn't the way the Tribunal was supposed to work, but that was the culture for them at the time.

There was also the time when Lyte asked people to try and remember how many of their last 10 games included toxicity. The average reply was 6-7, while the actual amount of toxicity was 0-1.

Observation bias is a thing. So is the desire to necrotize the player base.

I had a long day at work, so maybe I'm not being especially clear. From where I sit, the demand to punish quicker and for less is a beast that can never be sated. There will always be people ginning up outrage to whip the mob into a frenzy.

That's why I think these feeding threads are effectively pointless. The Instant Feedback System took a long time to even become effective and it still has a long ways to go, but things are better. Riot is working on it and, while I agree that they could give us more and better updates, I can also see their reluctance, given how the community has responded in the past. We'll get there... eventually.

If I can be permitted a brief Appeal to Authority / anecdote: I have been around since about midway Season 1 and the community is much better than it used to be, especially in comparison to my experiences with DOTA/DOTA2. That's why I have faith in the process and why I get frustrated with people who claim that reporting does nothing.

Hey, thanks for the reply. :)

If I may also may be permitted a brief anecdote, I've also been here since about S1, maybe between open beta/Season 1, can't remember exactly. I actually disagree that the community is better, though I think the game itself has gone above and beyond when it comes to actually improving its depth and content.

I'm one of the few people who actually doesn't want the tribunal back, so I'm not sure why it's being brought up. I've been helping run a fangame elsewhere (volunteer also, about 500-1000 online a day) for about 7-8 years and I've seen how stupid/impulsive people can be as a group, and I've seen how irrational they can get when calling for blood/how mobs can form based on misinformation.

I also don't want people to be punished QUICKLY at the cost of accuracy, but I definitely feel like there needs to be a change somewhere because it absolutely seems like people are just getting away with stupid things. The SEVERAL posts about this person gaining traction successfully while the finger is pointed at the system shows that this behavior is common enough and happens to enough of us to where the playerbase finds it believable that the system is flawed.

I'm honestly tempted to just start recording/writing down how often this happens to me to see what the results are, but it FEELS like a lot, and even with me aware of how inaccurate a gut feeling can be it still FEELS like the system is failing those of us who are posting in this topic and other topics about this subject. Now imagine that perception from somebody else who doesn't sit around and think about this as much as me or even you? With such a feedback-less system, how is Riot going to combat their community feeling that nothing is happening? If the system is doing something, how is Riot going to communicate that outside of pure silence or "we promise it works, guys"? I think people aren't clinging to the tribunal because it was renown as a fair system, I think they cling to the tribunal because it COMMUNICATED that something happened. Even if flawed people felt like they were able to DO something about all of these trolls.

Here you drop a report and...maybe twice a year get a popup saying "hey we punished some guy you reported!" Or maybe you're like me and you report somebody who was completely toxic and then are put into a match with him again within a few days.

I think it's less that reports may or may not "actually do something" as much as we have no way to see that they are doing something, and it doesn't feel like the game is improving regarding its community at all. Even worse than meeting the community with silence is saying that it's not a big deal. ON THE ASSUMPTION that the report system is doing something, how the hell are we supposed to believe that when literally the first game I had after responding to you involved the enemy top poppy that calling people trash as soon as the game started (And throughout the game), a support blitz that was rude when asked to buy a sightstone because we were losing vision control, and an MF that constantly DC'd only to come back and gripe about how we were losing a 4 v 5.

How is Riot going to deal with this? What is happening to these people? We have people completely unconcerned with getting reported, we have people becoming infamous for inting as Shaco with nothing happening to them for months or even years even after gaining a large following and only after their story blew up. Why would the playerbase believe something is happening let alone on a smaller scale? Literally every visual aspect of toxicity is that people get away with it. We're being told one thing but how we are affected and what we are able to observe completely contradicts that. Ignoring that issue by ONLY addressing the shallow point of "leave Tribunal alone" or "You guys are wrong" means to ignore the actual core problem(s) here.

xReadyPlayerOnexJan 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I can't even remember the last game of mine where someone intentionally fed and that anecdote is just as valid as a carefully cherry-picked set of matches.

Do I hate feeders? Absolutely. Do I want to see them punished? Even more so. I'm just not going to get bent out of shape about those that get away with it. I don't even get bent out of shape when it happens in my games because it's going to happen and there isn't anything I can do about it - other than report and move on.

First... consider yourself blessed. You have luck or something that guides 4 amazing people out of those millions of players onto your teams. Or you're blind as a bat or ignore a lot of things that ruin games for many other people.

Second... That's the whole point of this post from what I can see. We all hate feeders and similar shit. But we want MORE DONE ABOUT IT... We all report and "move on"... it's not working. You may point out some of these people go to 3rd party sites and such and all that but it doesn't change the fact that it DOES happen. And the response from RIOT is WAAAAY too lenient.

How do you even consider yourself a critic?

ModUlanopoJan 3, 20172 votes

How do you even consider yourself a critic?

Didn't we already have this discussion? I feel as though we did.

Supreme Senpai69Jan 3, 20171 votes

"The truth is, millions of people play every day while experiencing little to no toxicity."

Edit: I know you have no reason to lie about that. Maybe Riot says that because they poll from everywhere? I doubt there's a lot of toxicity in the higher ELOs for fear of getting banned, honestly. Considering how many people play this game, millions honestly don't seem like a lot. Sure, maybe millions can play without toxicity. Maybe those are even the ones that are smart and /mute all at the start of each game.

But for me, and my friends, and everyone I've talked to that plays league, and the people in the games that I socialize with each match... we experience it nonstop, everyday. So there might be millions of people that don't experience toxicity. But there's 100 million monthly players. So.. yea. You're not wrong, but that's really not saying anything. So what if a very small minority experience a small amount of toxicity?

TorpedosheepJan 3, 20171 votes

Greetings from a fellow Volunteer ^^

I've been involved in the post on the EU Boards that was mentioned here, and I can feel your pain...

It's clear that the Feederbuster didn't catch this case, and mistakes happen, nobody's denying that.

What gets me even more mad though, is that there are so many players reading way too much into this, and coming up with these terrible theories.

"This proves that Feederbuster isn't working" _ "This proves that Riot doesn't care"_

"This proves that you can feed for 20 games before getting punished"

No, it doesn't prove anything! It's an exception and players can't just ignore the fact that hundreds of feeders are banned quickly and rightfully.

I'm really disappointed in parts of our community for completely switching off their logic when reading way too much into a single mistake.

Can the community final agree that Intentional feed detection is trash? (IM A ID A IR A) post.

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