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Singed Support - It's Not About The Meta - I'll Prove It

Elite4Runner··10 votes·713 views

If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm sure you can find a different post or a video on YouTube explaining the whole thing.

I'm going to prove to you that it has nothing to do with the meta, and everything to do with his repeated behavior, by giving an example that is different, but illustrates a similar behavior.

Instead of the support role, I'm going to play the jungle role. And, instead of playing an off-meta champion, I'm going to play a meta champion.

So lets use Sion as an example. He isn't fully a jungle meta champion, but he is close enough, and really strong atm.

Now, I'm going to take smite and itemize just like a meta jungler.

I suppose to even keep a little more in similarity to the Singed scenario, I will tell my team in champion select my plan, and that is,

  • I am going to do nothing but farm jungle camps on our side of the river, Gromp, Blue, Wolves, Raptors, Red, and Krug.
  • I will not be laying down wards or taking Scuttle for vision.
  • I will not be ganking
  • I will not be taking or assisting with Dragon, Baron, or towers.

Until I have reached full build, then I will help close out the game.

Now, for those who are claiming that he is actually communicating, I have clearly "communicated" with my team my plans. Regardless of what they would prefer that I do, or how much they protest, this is exactly what I will do.

I am also not "breaking the meta" because I am playing a meta champion in the jungle, and I am farming jungle camps, which is what junglers do.

I am not AFK. I am active and responsive. I will talk to my team in chat. I will not be verbally abusive, flame, rage, etc. ...

Technically, I am not hurting my teammates. It is entirely possible for them to win their respective lanes without any ganks from me. In return I will not be claiming any of their kills, soaking their exp, or taxing their cs.

If all of my lanes win, or at least hold out long enough for me to reach full build, I should be big enough to finish out the game for a win. They may even do well enough to finish before I get that far.

On the other hand, even if they are losing, I will not stop to help them because that is not a part of my plan.

Sounds like a good strategy, right?

I am not even really all that hung up on it being Sion. I could probably pull this strategy off with just about anyone.

But what I fully expect is that I will get people who will immediately get angry with me for this strategy before we even get into the game.

Then during the game they will request ganks from me.

They will ask for help with vision, and objectives.

There will most definitely be games where we will lose.

I will absolutely get reported.

After several games and several reports, I fully expect to receive corrective action from Riot. Probably a temporary suspension.

And after that suspension has lifted, if I continue to do this, I will be facing the chances of a permanent suspension.

Now think, if you laning in one of these matches with me,

How mad would you be?

Would you be willing to forgive me for choosing to play differently than the "meta"?

Would you report me?

Would you expect Riot to do anything?

26 Comments

Kei1432 votes

you need be in support position first, you also need the wave manage and build zzrot / banner of command and not just AFK farm jungle.

Elite4Runner5 votes

{quoted}

you need be in support position first, you also need the wave manage and build zzrot / banner of command and not just AFK farm jungle.

..... I don't think you even read my post....

Or you really just missed the point completely.

Kei1433 votes

ya .. but your poll question is "see the similarity". The answer is no. Your scenario isn't close to the same thing as what he is doing.

Elite4Runner3 votes

{quoted}

ya .. but your poll question is "see the similarity". The answer is no. Your scenario isn't the same as what he is doing.

You apparently don't know the difference between the words "same" and "similar"

Kei1432 votes

not similar enough then?

I mean .. different role, different play style, different itemization, different map pressure, different denial of resources.

Your comparisons have one similarity; he doesn't help the team, but he does, cos he is great at wave management, which is overall map pressure.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

not similar enough then?

Do you understand how my behavior would cause me to be banned?

Kei1432 votes

in your case, yes. Its pretty clear cut.

in his case, no. His case is deep into the grey area.

SavageConcordia6 votes

His case is deep into the grey area until you are ashe getting 2v1 stomped by a karma/lucian and despite your constant pleas with singed he just keeps ignoring you. Your turret is down at 7 min because you dont have the early wave clear to survive/sustain to survive the early game but thats really your fault, he said he was doing this you should have picked a champ that can 2v1 like rumble; who cares that you qued for adc.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

I mean .. different role, different play style, different itemization, different map pressure, different denial of resources.

Your comparisons have one similarity; he doesn't help the team, but he does, cos he is great at wave management, which is overall map pressure.

I am technically not required to gank.

By itemizing to my role, I am playing my role correctly.

It isn't about what I am doing in the game because by itself that is not ban-worthy.

If this game went poorly and I never played this way again I would not be banned.

The fact that I continue to play this way would be what would result in a ban.

This is the similarity that I am illustrating.

Kei1431 votes

I'm going to twist your scenario a slight bit purposely:

You mainly AFK farm jungle for gold (includes counter jungling), all lanes are mostly winning (like that is going to happen all the time). We'll keep those. Heck, we'll even keep the fact that you won't ward.

The new stuff:

You'll show your face when your team crashes a minion wave into the tower and zone the enemy off. You'll also buy a zzrot (sometimes jg buys it) and apply map pressure elsewhere. Cos you won't be just standing around waiting for camps on the whole map to spawn.

Suddenly this case is not as reportable as your clear cut case is.

Will you get banned ? I sure wouldn't report you for this, someone else might. Small changes in gameplay will alter what people will think it is reportable and what is bannable.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Sure, that may be enough for some people to decide not to report me, but I'm sure it wouldn't stop everyone. I would bet it honestly wouldn't even stop most people, especially if that game was a loss.

But again, it has nothing to do with what champion I play in the role I chose, but the frequency in which the way I play creates a negative experience for the other players.

Escheton2 votes

STRAAAAAAAAAWMAN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZkCPo7tC0

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

STRAAAAAAAAAWMAN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZkCPo7tC0

Are you saying that I am using this fallacy, or that this is the fallacy that is being used by the people who are supporting the Singed Support player.

Because I would argue the latter. People are assuming that the issue is a suppression of his off-meta pick, when it actually is entirely based on the fact that he was intentionally and consistently creating negative experiences for his teammates.

Requiemsfire2 votes

Well what the singed did was:

Farm the enemy Jungle (Okay this is a good thing) Left his ADC to 1v2 (This leaves the ADC vulnerable and unless you are actually divisions above your opponent you most probably won't be able to hold out) Proxied other lanes, denying laners farm, Never grouping up with his team ( had a very low KPA and forcing his team to fight a 4v5) Never built a sightstone Denied farm to his own ADC

Elite4Runner2 votes

{quoted}

Well what the singed did was:

Farm the enemy Jungle (Okay this is a good thing) Left his ADC to 1v2 (This leaves the ADC vulnerable and unless you are actually divisions above your opponent you most probably won't be able to hold out) Proxied other lanes, denying laners farm, Never grouping up with his team ( had a very low KPA and forcing his team to fight a 4v5) Never built a sightstone Denied farm to his own ADC

Still missing the point.

It doesn't matter that he did these things in any given game.

He continuously did these things across multiple games.

The fact that he did this as Singed is irrelevant.

If he did this as Alistar, Braum, Bard, Blitzcrank, ... don't make me go through all of them, ... he could receive equal punishment.

Requiemsfire2 votes

Of course, I never said or implied he was banned for picking singed support, anyone could pick any kind of champion into any role given it could perform properly, Hell, it can work singed support. But he wasn't playing support or really helping his team and that is why he was banned.

MUSHROOM MIDGET1 votes

that is similar in the same way that bard leaving lane to pick up chimes abandoning his adc for sometimes minutes at a time is similar. should bard not be allowed to leave lane?

Elite4Runner1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MUSHROOM MIDGET,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=AWdG6xc5,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-16T15:39:14.343+0000)

that is similar in the same way that bard leaving lane to pick up chimes abandoning his adc for sometimes minutes at a time is similar. should bard not be allowed to leave lane?

If you're the ADC and the enemy team is pushing to your tower and your Bard says in chat "I'm going to go collect chimes" and leaves, .. you might consider reporting him.

If you tell him not to and to come back and he goes anyways, he is then not communicating/coordinating with his team.

If Riot receives consistent feedback that he is doing this, they very well may take corrective action.

MUSHROOM MIDGET2 votes

in my opinion that is very wrong and this is the exact reason this singed punishment is so wrong. the adc doesnt get to tell the support how to play and report him if he doesnt obey. he should be able to play the game however he wants. maybe in his judgement he can be more valuable somewhere else. or it could be that he thinks he is going to get dove and die if he stays. that is up to him and no one else.

making your own decisions on where to go and what to do should never be punishable unless you are intentionally feeding.

Elite4Runner1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MUSHROOM MIDGET,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=AWdG6xc5,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-11-16T18:15:27.051+0000)

in my opinion that is very wrong and this is the exact reason this singed punishment is so wrong.

Intentionally abandoning players and objectives can be considered feeding.

While I can agree that it is hard to punish someone for simply making poor strategic decisions, when your decision is to intentionally and consistently ignore the requests to support your teammates, YOU are creating a negative experience.

But still, ... once again, ... that is not the point that i am making.

The point is that it has nothing to do with the fact that the player chose to play an off-meta champion for their position.

MUSHROOM MIDGET1 votes

yes i agree with you on that point. he didnt get threatened to be banned for taking singed support but rather for taking smite and leaving his adc alone too much.

but i still disagree with that. how can anyone judge how long is too much time to leave your adc alone? are we going to make it punishable for a support to roam mid for a sneaky gank? its a bad idea to take away freedom and choices.

i see what he is doing as similar to split pushing. because a lot of people dont understand split pushing or team comps, they demand that their team group up and will report a split pusher. i suppose if someone is split pushing they are creating a negative experience for those players. but it is not because of what they are doing. it is because the other players dont understand the strategy and how to adapt their own play so that it can work.

this is the same as the case with this singed.

Elite4Runner2 votes

[{quoted}](name=MUSHROOM MIDGET,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=AWdG6xc5,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-17T05:27:21.790+0000)

yes i agree with you on that point. he didnt get threatened to be banned for taking singed support but rather for taking smite and leaving his adc alone too much.

Great! So we agree! The whole point of this post is to say that it didn't have anything to do with the off-meta pick.

I would say that the specific actions that he took are up to Riot to make the decision on.

However, if he was simply making choices that were less than agreeable by players in a few games it would have never got to this point.

The fact that he has accumulated so many reports that were deemed valid enough to result in a temporary suspension should really say quite a bit.

The fact that he refused to change his behavior after the fact is the reason he got banned.

MUSHROOM MIDGET2 votes

agreed. some of the stuff he was doing was apparently more extreme than i originally thought. i now think riot is dealing with him fairly.

Anomander1 votes

Gee anyone remember Feral Flare and afk jungles? Riot got enough reports about it being unhealthy gameplay that they removed it.

ReadyxPlayerxOne1 votes

What analogy are you making? Being a bad jungle is akin to playing a support incorrectly? I dont see how that works.

Any champ can excel in any position on the map if the team is capable of playing that way. Its basically a game of chess. You have all the pieces, do what you can with them. However if you decide you arent using the pawns and the knights are going to be suicided and youre going to play singed support cause thats cool right now then its likely you should be in your own special custom game.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

What analogy are you making? Being a bad jungle is akin to playing a support incorrectly? I dont see how that works.

I'm getting really tired of repeating myself on this thread.

The analogy has nothing to do with the gameplay.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that he is consistently and intentionally creating a negative experience for players over many many games by forcing his team to adopt his unconventional strategy and ignoring their requests for him to cooperate with them. This includes ignoring RIOT's request for him to change his behavior.

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