Toxicity is ill-defined.

Inari Fox Orrion·Feb 8, 2018·3 votes·787 views

Or, at the very least, it's not defined enough to prevent people from saying critique (NOT flaming, but actual critique; Exact words "Your job as the midlaner is to roam with the enemy midlaner or take their tower. They have no reason to roam unless YOU let them.") wound count as toxicity. Even, in a really extreme example, "I'll be AFK" isn't toxic, but acting upon it definitely is.

I feel like Riot needs to release a mass statement saying "Critique isn't toxic. Calling you an asshat is toxic."

21 Comments

Jo0oFeb 8, 20185 votes

Your exact quote is obviously just advice. I can't imagine any situation where Riot would identify it as toxic. Was that something you said, and were told was against the rules? I'd be interested to see those full chat logs, or support ticket exchange.

"I'll AFK" is toxic even if you don't act on it. Threatening your team with AFKing, which is a method of trolling, is detrimental to team morale, focus, and enjoyment. That's clear-cut toxicity. I'll be happy if you don't do it, but you're still a douche for saying it, especially as a threat to get me to do something for you in-game.

BritneyFearFeb 8, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Your exact quote is obviously just advice. I can't imagine any situation where Riot would identify it as toxic. Was that something you said, and were told was against the rules? I'd be interested to see those full chat logs, or support ticket exchange.

"I'll AFK" is toxic even if you don't act on it. Threatening your team with AFKing, which is a method of trolling, is detrimental to team morale, focus, and enjoyment. That's clear-cut toxicity. I'll be happy if you don't do it, but you're still a douche for saying it, especially as a threat to get me to do something for you in-game.

Wasn't it you in my thread that said my "Critique" about Rammus skills was toxic because I shouldn't be talking about it? @Orrion I completely agree with you on when it comes to the word Toxicity being ill-defined.

I honestly feel people are taking things to the next level because everyone is really. . . . Too fragile to hear anything they don't wanna hear/like.

I remember telling a JGler to wait until the enemy teemo uses his MSPD buff before he ganks him. Then the jgler went off on me and called me out for being toxic. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Jo0oFeb 8, 20183 votes

The difference is that you insulted the Rammus's skill, and continued to act needlessly condescendingly towards him throughout the rest of the game. Orrion's example is a strategic suggestion, offered without insult or malice, assuming he didn't also follow up with "this mid is terrible", "children these days", and other stuff like you did.

BritneyFearFeb 8, 20182 votes

Not sure what a mid laner has to do with a Jgle Rammus. But ill humor this point for a small moment.

Think I only mentioned a mid laner once, and it's usually about the enemy team in the normal chat.

Even then and so saying "This mid is terrible" and leaving it at that is no way in heck should be a bannable offense.

And children these days??? Do you honestly think that's the worse thing in the world you could hear? Have some back bone for a remark that hardly inclines on the derogatory side. xD It's not like I'm telling you to "Drink bleach" "Eat tide" "Go kill yourself" "You're autistic" "You are a stupid $#@#@$" "You are a useless piece of #@%@#%"

Also there is no where in that log where I insulted the rammus. I literally stated what happened and what shouldn't of happened. Bluntly and straightforward without a single insult. [sg-lulu]

This Is Your DadFeb 8, 20185 votes

There are players that spend the entire game typing critique instead of playing. This is also toxic. It depends as well on the DEGREE to which you do things.

Butt ΡlugFeb 8, 20183 votes

hm, i don't really think that people get banned just for a single sentence criticizing their midlaner, but if they keep arguing or keep criticizing teammates i guess it can be categorized as harassment.

Because I've seen a few cases where some players kept criticizing their teammates on those forums, they got punished for it even if they didn't use any insults. Having a teammate contently criticizing what you're doing is annoying and when someone gets annoyed the likelihood of victory is drastically diminished.

Personally i feel like giving an advice like "Hey lux ! next time she roams bot try to ping and follow, maybe we can collapse and get her ! I'll ward near drake :p ", is way more effective than "Your job as the midlaner is to roam with the enemy midlaner or take their tower..". To sum it up, nobody wants to listen to a complete stranger telling them what to do.

So yeah critique isn't that toxic, but it's often ineffective/useless, it can be annoying and considered as harassment if used a bunch of times or if said with CAPS LOCK on and things like that. ( This plus the fact that you'll often find critique and toxicity mixed together in the chat logs you can find on those forums ).

Inari Fox OrrionFeb 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

hm, i don't really think that people get banned just for a single sentence criticizing their midlaner, but if they keep arguing or he keep criticizing his teammates i guess it can be categorized as harassment.

Because I've seen a few cases where some players kept criticizing their teammates on those forums, they got punished for it even if they didn't use any insults. Having a teammate contently criticizing what you're doing is annoying and when someone gets annoyed the likelihood of victory is drastically diminished.

Personally i feel like giving an advice like "Hey lux ! next time she roams bot try to ping and follow, maybe we can collapse and get her ! i'll ward near drake :p ", is way more effective than "Your job as the midlaner is to roam with the enemy midlaner or take their tower..". Nobody wants to listen to a complete stranger telling them what to do.

So yeah critique isn't that toxic, but it's often ineffective/useless, it can be annoying and considered as harassment if used a bunch of times.

That isn't quite what confuses me, though. People often take any criticism, however minor, AS toxicity. Often, the people willing to criticize do it constructively and give examples of what to do better "...your job as a midlaner is to roam with...", for example, and don't do it out of malice and therfor won't keep on criticizing when someone isn't receptive to it.

Yet I've had people call me toxic for it, when the worst thing I've said was, in response to an inting Lucian (in a separate game at that), "You're an asshat."

I'm not afraid I'll be banned - I have no reason to be. I'm just wondering when the definition will exist and, slightly less, why people would consider critique toxicity.

KaiokoFeb 8, 20183 votes

There's an easy way for you to define toxicity really. When the amount of enjoyment players get by playing with you goes below the amount of annoyance they get from being to forced to play with you -- you've become a toxic player. This can be from the way you play (like afking, refusing to play your role) to throwing insults in chat, to mass pinging.

When you cross that threshold you playing the game no longer is beneficial to Riot. You now cause more players to leave the game then bring in and therefore become a financial burden. In order for Riot to remain profitable, you need to be removed.

Inari Fox OrrionFeb 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There's an easy way for you to define toxicity really. When the amount of enjoyment players get by playing with you goes below the amount of annoyance they get from being to forced to play with you -- you've become a toxic player. This can be from the way you play (like afking, refusing to play your role) to throwing insults in chat, to mass pinging.

When you cross that threshold you playing the game no longer is beneficial to Riot. You now cause more players to leave the game then bring in and therefore become a financial burden. In order for Riot to remain profitable, you need to be removed.

Except, like the whole thing with Nunu Support, can be subjective and become a witch-burning instead of an actual case of someone being an asshat, even if at the end the Nunu's ban was justified -- but only for toxicity, not playing an unconventional pick.

KaiokoFeb 8, 20181 votes

Actually it defines it perfectly. It wasn't against the rules per say but the community as a whole didn't like it. It was causing more grief to players than enjoyment and therefore it was punished.

Same thing goes with anything else. Take racial insults for example -- if the community wasn't offended by it no one would get punished. The playerbase as a whole has decided that it's not acceptable however and therefore it isn't.

Riot tries to write the rules out as a guideline, but ultimately it comes back to what people deem acceptable and not acceptable.

Inari Fox OrrionFeb 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Actually it defines it perfectly. It wasn't against the rules per say but the community as a whole didn't like it. It was causing more grief to players than enjoyment and therefore it was punished.

Same thing goes with anything else. Take racial insults for example -- if the community wasn't offended by it no one would get punished. The playerbase as a whole has decided that it's not acceptable however and therefore it isn't.

Riot tries to write the rules out as a guideline, but ultimately it comes back to what people deem acceptable and not acceptable.

Racial insults are against rules of society as a whole because they're derisive towards a minority of people and infringe on their personal freedom.

If the whole community I'm with, say, decides that I can't play Quinn support, would you find a ban for doing just that justified? It only subjectively impacts their experience - because they say I can't and get miffed if I do, despite it not affecting their pick regardless of what it is - and doesn't cause objective harm in the same way insults are in general an amazing way to bring about an atmosphere of animosity even if no-one responds to the insult or slur.

KaiokoFeb 8, 20181 votes

If there was enough support for it and Riot started losing money due to it, I guarantee that would be the case. Luckily our playerbase really isn't as bad as people think so stuff like that mostly doesn't need to be a concern.

Inari Fox OrrionFeb 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If there was enough support for it and Riot started losing money due to it, I guarantee that would be the case. Luckily our playerbase really isn't as bad as people think so stuff like that mostly doesn't need to be a concern.

and that's the problem: when what they think/do about it infringes on your own personal freedom.

Hate of insults and everything is fine because you can't choose not to be insulted. The problem is when an "insult" lacks a definition and becomes subjective, or when the definition IS "subjective".

BritneyFearFeb 8, 20182 votes

The problem is entitlement. Players feel entitled to want someone else to be banned over petty things whenever crap doesn't go their way or someone's else's opinions/views differ from theirs.

Kei143Feb 8, 20181 votes

that statement won't get anyone punished.

Ph03n1xb1rdFeb 9, 20181 votes

Actually critique is considered toxic by rito, soo go on :D

Nick MorrisonFeb 9, 20181 votes

Summoner's code says be constructive.

Does anyone actually feel they're helping when they say "stop feeding" to someone losing their lane?

Ph03n1xb1rdFeb 9, 20181 votes

Does someone who feeds actually feel that they are helping the game?

BritneyFearFeb 9, 20181 votes

If people start seriously getting banned over saying "Stop feeding" I'm muting all chat before the game starts. Lots of the players here keep complaining over petty stuff, its just absurd to even talk to anyone anymore by this point. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Ex5p1rav1tFeb 9, 20181 votes

I want to leave a ticket about why I was banned! I feel it was unfair, and I have spent so much money on this game I feel a deserve a live chat trial! Help now please!!!!!