An automated system banning on the spot, without context is the only way to have a ban system at al

Player3Th0mas··19 votes·1,744 views

FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHY I MADE THIS:

A lot of players complain about the instant feedback system, that it doesn't take context into consideration, that they were joking and that riot should review all reports themselves.

People say the current system sucks, I'm trying to prove that I have no life and that I'm really bored, as well as that what they're asking for is impossible.


A system that automatically bans anyone that uses slurs, no matter the context, is still better than a system that needs humans to measure the context, whether it was quoted or not or if it was joking.

League had 27 million players every day in 2014. Around this time there were 67 million monthly players.

In 2016, no official information on daily players has been released, but the amount of monthly players was 100 million.

The amount of daily players can be estimated through that number, if you consider the growth in monthly and daily players to be the same. With that growth, there is a total estimate of 40 million daily players in League.

NA currently makes up about 11% of the total playerbase, but let's down that to 10% for easy calculating, so that means there are around 4 million daily players in NA. If everyone plays one game you would have 400.000 games a day, 800.000 games when you play 2 games a day. There are plenty of people who play more, but let's say everyone plays 2 games a day.


With 800.000 games played a day, there can be a maximum of 8 million reports op people a day. Let's say that about 10% of people gets reported. One person each game. 800.000 reports a day. Let's say only 1% of those reports is valid according to the system, and gets passed on to our "official RIOT human context chatlog Judges". (according to riot lyte only 1% of people is toxic/got a restriction) That's still 8.000 valid reports a day, only in NA.


Reading through a chat log takes about 3 - 5 minutes, and since people want context, the other chat also has to be read, making it about 4 minutes. Deciding whether it was toxic and bannable or not can be instant to 2 minutes if it's close, so we'll take 1 minute for that. 5 minutes. 5 minutes per report.

8000 valid reports x 5 minutes = 40.000 minutes.

40.000 minutes 667 hours 28 days


It would take one person 28 days to do all the chat logs from one day. Or 28 people to do it in one day. 24 hours of non stop judging.

A working day is about 8 hours, so all these logs would take 83 working days for one person, OR a team of 83 people working 8 hours non stop reading reports. Without breaks without taking time to switch reports.

So you would need a team of about 100 - 150 people to read reports every day. Only in NA. Considering NA is about 10% of the total league population, all this is x10 for the full playerbase, so 1000 - 1500 people only reading reports. The current amount of RIOT employees according to google is 2500 people.

So they would need to expand their employee base by 40 - 60%, just to be able to make a valid and trustworthy context-based report system!

That's just impossible to do. An automated system does all of this instantly.

With the current report and ban system, 99% of reports are a 100% valid, so only 1% is invalid and should be appealed.

Considering we needed those 100 - 150 people in NA to process all the reports that come through, we would only need 1 - 1,5 people to process the current invalid reports. That's exactly what the current system does, but instead of having 2 employees handling that by themselves, we have the Riot Support handling all these ban appeals.

What I'm not considering is that most people play far more games per day. I play about 5 games a day, this would make the numbers even bigger. From twice as big to three times as big.

64 Comments

Yara06 votes

Yah if people cant understand why they are being banned for using a word even "as a joke" then they should search up what those words mean and where they come from and why riot has no tolerance for them being used in any context. and if you cant figure it out after that then maybe you should question your humanity.

And no im not talking about cursing im talking about offensive words that were used as a way to opress and abuse people and are still being used to do so.

Ninja Assassin6 votes

If you think more reports and punishments is better then, yes. But, if you value accuracy and reform; this system is slowly moving player punishment in the wrong direction.

Player3Th0mas9 votes

Did you see the part where Riot needs to employ about 1250 people just to handle the reports?

And that their current employee count is 2500. A 50% employee increase is impossible for any company.

Furthermore, the system is accurate if you look at it. Certain words are no go. Being toxic is no go.

Only a really small percentage of penalties are invalid, and these are handled appropriately. The other 99% is really accurate.

Reforming is not riots responsibility, its your own. They have made clear multiple times, through chat bans and play bans that your behaviour is not accepted. You know what you have to change, now you have to do it. No one can do that for you.

Ninja Assassin5 votes

I don't care about the logistics of the system. Just because something costs more money, doesn't mean it is worse.

You are right though, offering opportunities to reform is not the company's responsibility. Companies that care about their customers will offer them benefits and privileges in exchange for their continued support. Riot games is in the unique position in which they don't have to do these kinds of things, because their player-base is so large and they make so much money from paid content as well as advertising from an esports league and popular streamers. But, just because they have the luxury of not giving every customer personal attention doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.

The system in place right now is too rigid and vague. Player support is less concerned about helping players and more concerned with defending their own automated system. Just because this is the most cost-effective and efficient way to run the punishment system doesn't mean its the right way. Context in chat logs should matter, especially when dealing with words that trigger automatic bans.

Player3Th0mas6 votes

I don't care about the logistics of the system.

Well you should.

Companies that care about their customers will offer them benefits and privileges in exchange for their continued support

You mean free content for people who play the game neutral/friendly? Keys fragments, chests and emotes through missions, daily play and honors?

The system in place right now is too rigid and vague

It's as clear as can be. Don't be a jerk and don't use racial, sexist or homophobic slurs. Also don't tell people to kill themselves and you're good to go.


Were gonna do another calculation.

Let's say riot hires another 1250 people to be their support system.

There's 365 days in a year. A work day is 8 hours

The average minimum wage in countries where league is played is about 7.50 an hour.

If riot were to hire 1250 people to do the job, it would cost them:

7.50 x 8 x 365 x 1250 = 27,367,000

Thats over 27 million dollars each year in salaries only.

Ninja Assassin4 votes

Sorry to be blunt, but I'm bored of this line of thinking. I don't care about the economics or logistics of the system. As a player, the only aspect of a punishment system that matters to me is it's fairness.

You can dissect a million more of my statements and you won't change my mind. A punishment system needs to be fair or else it's not achieving its true purpose. A fair system will consider context and review a game on a case by case basis in order to give an appropriate judgement. The current system does none of these things, because it is designed to detect trigger words and automatically dish out punishment.

There is no list of words that are considered unacceptable and there is no clear line established between banter and harassment. These are both aspects of a vague system that is more focused on efficiency than integrity. When a company sacrifices its integrity in favor of money it loses its customers' support.

Personally, I no longer wish to support this company based on the direction its currently heading in, but I still continue to play this game because I'm diamond elo on my main and I value the competition my matches provide. Paying any more money for content is certainly out the window, but I refuse to stop playing just because riot doesn't give a shit about me or most of their customers. I enjoy my matches and that's all that matters to me as a player.

Player3Th0mas4 votes

Then how would you suggest to fix the problem?

All you've given me is:

  • the system sucks right now
  • It should be changed to something more fair, context based and focused on reform
  • I don't care that it's not possible on an economic basis
  • I don't care that it's not possible based on current technology and machine learning
  • you won't change my mind no matter how many impossible things I want

So I'm done trying to change your mind (for now). Explain to me how you would change the system, to a system that fits all of your criteria.

Ninja Assassin3 votes

Why do you expect a random player on the boards to have an answer to that? My working experiences are only in retail and recreational fitness and my degree is in psychology. Companies hire people to analyze and make these types of decisions, and it would be very foolish ask for solutions from random players/customers. All I can offer is input, and its up riot whether they want to consider my feedback to come up with a solution.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

You're not giving feedback though, you're literally just shitting on any viewpoint that differs from yours.

PlayerThomas was making a very important point with their post. And yet you attempted to argue that despite it being impossible it should still be done. Saying "I have nothing to contribute to solving it" is not a valid excuse.

Psychology is more useful than you seem to realize, depending on the type of psych you apply. Try it on for size and see if you can come up with any solutions.

Another thing to consider is that the problem doesn't have to be looked at from just one angle. If you really want to suggest that it should be done anyways, then start looking for other ways to address the root of the problem (people exhibiting punishable behavior) rather than the symptom (rare cases of unfair punishments).

And you've still failed to show how Riot is actually failing their customers in this regard. Because I don't see many cases of false punishments. Plenty of times people feel like their punishment wasn't fair, but that doesn't actually mean they didn't deserve it, it just means they don't understand it.

Ninja Assassin2 votes

Slow down there. A discussion does not equate to me shitting on someone. I'm discussing his post by giving my own opinions and telling him why I don't agree with him. Let's not make this seem like some kind of nasty debate where I'm attacking him in order to make my points look better. Just because I disagree with him, doesn't mean I think he's a bad person who deserves to be shit on or anything like that.

As for contributing to how to solve this problem, I don't think riot should rely on players to do something like that. It should be left to professionals who have experience in balancing customer satisfaction and economic efficiency. By saying that I don't have the answers to the solution I'm admitting that I am completely out of my league in dealing with company financial matters and balancing public relations, but lets get one thing straight here:

  • I am only offering my own opinions and feedback. I'm not on here trying to convince other people to agree with me. If they do, it will be because they have experienced similar things and might feel the same way.

I think you should go back and read my original post, because when I say riot is failing its customers I am speaking from my own experiences and the way in which this company gradually lost my trust over the past 4 years, not presenting other people's examples. I can't speak to other player's situations because I don't have all the info.

Final response: I don't care for any of your advice on a topic that I studied for 4 years at university. I have studied a great deal of social psychology and its one of the very reasons I come on here to comment on threads regarding bans.

edit: one more thing, I dislike the down-vote brigading that occurs on these boards. I feel like spirited debates are healthy, but bringing in a bunch of people to down-vote someone who you disagree with or simply don't like, just seems really childish to me.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I don't bring anybody to threads with me, I browse the boards solo, same as you. None of my real-world friends browse the boards, and I have no alliances with anybody else on the boards. You got one, maybe two downvotes on a few comments in this particular discussion chain, it's not the end of the world. I don't even vote on most comments (and I didn't vote on at least half of yours in this particular discussion chain), don't take it so personally when we get voted one way or the other by random strangers.

I didn't say you were shitting on them I said you're shitting on their viewpoints.

A discussion has give and take. In this thread you have been all take and no give. You refuse to even attempt to understand the other viewpoints - as proven by your statements: "but I'm bored of this line of thinking" and "You can dissect a million more of my statements and you won't change my mind"

They aren't just commenting to try to convince you. They are commenting to defend their own beliefs, which you absolutely are attacking. You - not the OP - initiated the discussion, and they have repeatedly replied to defend their stance in a perfectly rational manner, your response to which was basically "I'm bored," and, "I don't care what you think." If you didn't care what they thought then you shouldn't have commented disparagingly about a viewpoint that they would undoubtedly hold. Otherwise you were just showing off your opinion like a peacock displaying it's tail-feathers.

With regards to your arguments about the system being unfair, it's not just about fairness, it is about effectiveness. If Riot implemented (with their current tech) a system that is 100% fair, it would be ineffective and way worse than our current system because it would take longer to confirm and dole out punishments to people who deserve them. Trolls would remain in the game for longer and it would ruin way more games than it would save. And the current system is >99% effective anyways. IMO it's just not worth it to jeopardize the entire system for a <1% increase in accuracy when those cases can already be appealed with Riot Support via support tickets.

I understand that this viewpoint is entirely utilitarian and doesn't mesh well with yours, but unfortunately Riot's punishment philosophy caters to utilitarian views while everything leading up to that point caters to views like yours on individual freedom. When people cross the line into punishable behavior, they lose their individual freedoms within the game.

I get that you're speaking to your own experience and belief, but you're not trying to engage with or understand others' experiences and beliefs. If you're going to engage in discussions with other people, you have to do more than just cling to your opinions and ignore theirs. Just because they think it is impractical to sole the problem in a particular way does not mean that they think the problem shouldn't be solved.

I see where you are coming from about thinking that Riot and not players should solve problems, however I personally disagree. I think that Riot has the wherewithal to sift through player ideas and find just the good ones. Thus I think that it can only benefit the game to add ideas and solutions to the already teeming sea of ideas on the internet.

If you're not here to persuade people to agree with you then what are you doing commenting in this thread? Are you here to tell them to stop posting their ideas? To stop defending the system? You're forgetting the fact that you commented first here, and the OP was simply defending their beliefs. If you stick your nose in on somebody else's thread and then when they defend their beliefs in a perfectly reasonable manner you become defensive, it's your problem not theirs. The argument between you and the OP would not have happened had you not instigated it.

Good for you, psych is a cool area of study and I respect that you earned a degree in it. I'd look at your comment history to verify if you're applying any of it to your comments, but apparently your profile is broken somehow and is returning a 404 error.

Claiming that you browse and comment because of what you studied just rubs me the wrong way. No, you browse the boards and comment on threads because it satisfies you, not because of such a disconnected reason as "I studied it." I studied computer programming and I browse stack overflow not because I studied it, but because I use it to satisfy my curiosity about various tricks to coding. We don't have to argue about this because it is off-topic, but I felt a need to address this because it appeared lofty and inaccurate IMO.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

It would be tedious to respond to every jab in this comment, so I'm going to make it short and simple:

I never said that my degree was the only reason I comment on here, so get that idea out of your head right away. If you want to know the reason I've stated it multiple times in other comments. If you still have trouble looking at my past comment history then just ask and I'll find one of the many times I've explained this for you.

Also, I don't care for your attitude. It seems as though you equate any disagreement I have that hasn't been changed by someone else's opinion as shitting on them. I acknowledge everyone on here's point of view, especially the op's. If there were any convincing arguments that could tear down my own perspective I would gladly acknowledge them and change my own opinion, but I just don't see any. When I hear the same line of thinking repeatedly I just get bored of it as I stated above. It's not that I don't recognize the merit of what is being said, it's just that I don't agree with it on a fundamental level, so repeating the same info over and over again is not going to change my mind.

Final note: you make a lot of assumptions about me and my own thoughts, and this is one of the few things that really irks me. If I don't explicitly say something, you automatically assume that my statement has a negative connotation. I don't care for your word choice "shitting on" and "attacking". These types of statements already indicate that you are painting any disagreement I have in a negative light, which is annoying but your right to do so. I really think you should take a second to re-read other people's comments before you create any sort of biases based on the tone or word choice. Discussions on here aren't meant to be a shouting match and a disagreement is not meant to be the equivalent of offending someone. People disagree on here all the time and the only time I feel that it is inappropriate is when people resort to name-calling or fallacy. All of my discussions are civil on here so I'd really appreciate it if you'd back off in your "psychological analysis" of my faults and opinions in order to characterize me as some sort of antagonist.

(sorry I meant for this response to be short, but I got carried away while trying to express my own thoughts and feelings on this matter)

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I apologize for assuming about you. I disagree with your interpretation of my actions, but I'm not here to argue about that, and I understand why you feel that way about them. I also understand that the jabs found in parts of my comment distracted you from my real points, so I will try to present those points again here without jabs.

I was bothered by your actions because the way you argued with the OP was so dismissive and unreasonable. You insisted the OP was wrong and you refused to even consider the reasons they presented.

People only engage with others whom they disagree with when they are trying to accomplish something. So I assumed that you wanted to persuade people that you are right and they are wrong about the reform/punishment system. But then you said, "I don't care what you think." So I became confused - I wondered what you were trying to accomplish if not persuade people?

The only reason I could find was that maybe you wanted to present your opinion but not be challenged on it. So either you thought you could engage in a discussion with people without listening to them, or you just wanted to show off your opinion. Either way I consider this sort of thing to be fallacious in spirit, if not in actuality. I tend to argue with people who I perceive to be harming discussions, which is why I spoke up about this. If I am wrong and these are not accurate assumptions then I am open to hearing what your actual intentions were, so please feel free to correct me.


The rest of this is copied from my previous comment (with minor edits), and it contains no jabs whatsoever:

"With regards to your arguments about the system being unfair, it's not just about fairness, it is about effectiveness. If Riot implemented (with their current tech) a system that is 100% fair, it would be ineffective and way worse than our current system because it would take longer to confirm and dole out punishments to people who deserve them. Trolls would remain in the game for longer and it would ruin way more games than it would save. And the current system is >99% effective anyways. IMO it's just not worth it to jeopardize the entire system for a <1% increase in accuracy when those cases can already be appealed with Riot Support via support tickets."

"I understand that this viewpoint is entirely utilitarian and doesn't mesh well with yours, but unfortunately Riot's punishment philosophy caters to utilitarian views while everything leading up to that point caters to views like yours on individual freedom. When people cross the line into punishable behavior, they lose their individual freedoms within the game."

"I get that you're speaking to your own experience and belief, but you're not trying to engage with or understand others' experiences and beliefs. If you're going to engage in discussions with other people, you have to do more than just cling to hold onto your opinions and ignore theirs. Just because they think it is impractical to solve the problem in a particular way does not mean that they think the problem shouldn't be solved."

"I see where you are coming from about thinking that Riot and not players should solve problems, however I personally disagree. I think that Riot has the wherewithal to sift through player ideas and find just the good ones. Thus I think that it can only benefit the game to add ideas and solutions to the already teeming sea of ideas on the internet."

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Sorry, I didn't respond earlier. Unfortunately, I work over 60 hours a week between my two jobs and can only really contribute to boards discussions when I have the time to.

This is from an earlier comment, in response to someone else, and basically sums up my reasoning for most of my posts on here:

"I don't have a purpose here on the boards. The only people who do are the moderators, and their purpose is to enforce the rules of conduct on these boards. Even though they often weigh in and give opinions on topics, that isn't their purpose, it is a freedom they share with anyone on here. If you are giving yourself the purpose of weighing idealism and pragmatism or whatever, good for you, but I am just here to share my own insight and opinions on issues on player behavior, because I want to. I want to help clarify issues that people are having with misinterpreting phrases that can result in punishment. I also have first-hand experience with being banned and getting shit on by riot and people on these boards, all because I simply questioned the harshness of my punishment. So, I feel that it would be good to help others who come on here after being punished, because literally no one is on their side. It sucked when no one was willing to defend me and give me any benefit of the doubt, so I try to give people who have gotten in trouble some help and most importantly respect. I look through thread after thread on here, and people who have received punishments are being treated awfully, and I just feel like no one deserves to be written off without at least hearing what they have to say and putting myself in their situation. "

Anyways, now that I've cleared up my motivations I think any more discourse on the matter we were discussing would be counter-productive. I will apologize for arguing with you so much and for criticizing your own opinions about my comments. You are entitled to establish your own interpretation of what I comment based on how you feel and it was childish of me to get upset by your analysis just because I didn't like or agree with it. I'm not here to play the victim or even spend the entire discussion defending myself. That being said I will keep my own opinions of your comments to myself, because I don't like having my statements dismissed by someone else and won't subject you to similar treatment.

So, I'll end on a final note: I understand the op's point and don't agree with it, me sharing my opinion on the matter was simply to give others who feel similarly some food for thought and to let them know that they aren't alone in their opinions about riot and the punishment system. I am sorry that the main point I was trying to communicate was lost in all of this back and forth, and in the future I will try to be more concise in what I am trying to say while acknowledging my own awareness of the other side of the issue. This way I can prevent myself from breeding any negative assumptions about my own character based on my diction when commenting.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I overreacted to your comments, I'm aware that this is a bad habit of mine. It's something that I've been dealing with for some time. It wasn't the content of your comments that I had a problem with, it was the way in which you engaged with the OP. But that doesn't excuse how far I went with my reactions.

It seems to me that we have reached an understanding that we both could have handled things better, setting all that aside I'm now prepared to discuss the topic of Riot's reform system and how fair or unfair it is.

Okay, I can agree that the system needs to be made more fair. I don't think it would be effective to do it in the way proposed previously, but I do think it would be possible and that it should be done.

Would you like to discuss possible methods of improving the system besides just bringing back the tribunal i in the same way it existed before? If so then please quote this comment of mine and post a fresh reply farther up the chain, I'm growing worried that we will run out of reply space and stop receiving notifications of each other's replies.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

I started a new chain in the original post.

Corrupt Bliss2 votes

Homophobic slurs, racial slurs, religious slurs, player directed attacks, telling other people to kill themselves, get cancer, etc, are all terrible and offensive.

Think of it like this- if you're getting reported it is not considered banter. Play to have fun like you do, but there is no need to ruthlessly insult other players. As mentioned by OP and Riot, only 1% are deemed toxic.

I recommend following Riot Tantrum via his profile, or viewing on the red tracker. I've read countless "I'm innocent" or "It was all just fun and play" pleas and it turns out to be a very biased, incorrect story with an appropriate ban.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

I don't understand the purpose of this comment. I am aware that homophobia, racism, and suicide encouragement are all ban-able offenses. This does not explain what appropriate vs inappropriate banter is or what slang words when used in a non-derogatory context are acceptable.

Corrupt Bliss2 votes

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/get-started/summoners-code/

As stated prior- don't be rude and don't use derogatory comments. With a degree in psychology, you probably understand under-tones and back-handed comments do indeed impact 'friends'. No matter the context, being rude and mean is being rude and mean.

In my opinion, NO ONE should EVER make jokes about killing yourself, cancer, depression, gender preferences. It's not being soft, it's understanding the you cannot uplift someone by saying rude things.

Ninja Assassin3 votes

I don't know where everyone is getting this notion that psychologists are supposed to be these sensitive and touchy, feely individuals. Psychology is about understanding the human mind and how it affects our behavior. Of course I understand how negative communication can impact an individual's performance, but I also understand that a person's mental state is largely determined by their own outlook and response to challenges that they face. People experience dissonance on a daily basis, but what separates the successful from the non-successful is how we respond to it. I'm not in favor of a happy, over-positive rapport when playing this game. This game is meant to be competitive, so of course there will be differences of opinions and criticism of people's play and decisions, but that kind of thing should not be punishable. Working together to win a match will often involve confronting other players who are creating obstacles for the rest of the team and I see no reason to punish individuals who get heated when trying to improve there chances of winning. Of course, if you just start throwing out slurs and spamming others you deserve a punishment, but in that case it should be very easy for riot to establish clearer guidelines about what is acceptable and what isn't.

I hope that addressed at least some of you concerns, if not then I am sorry for not being clear enough.

Corrupt Bliss3 votes

Very clear, and I can understand where you are coming from much better now. Thanks for the stellar response!

I agree, some guidelines could/should be outlined better, but honestly it is not difficult to not get banned/chat restricted. I've never had a chat restriction or ban in my seven years of playing League of Legends. The worst penalty I've ever received was from queue dodging.

Ninja Assassin2 votes

Glad we both understand each other, even if we disagree on some aspects of the issue. All too often people come on here and write me off without even reading what I post, because of the negative reputation my opinions have accrued. So, I really do appreciate you taking the time to read my thoughts and trying to understand where I am coming from.

I also do see where you are coming from, given that you have never been punished. So, in essence the system is definitely working for you. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for myself. It took me 5 years to receive my first punishment and it was an instant 14 day ban, so I feel like I was able to relate to that feeling of being satisfied with the punishment system until somewhat recently. Afterwards, I've been posting on here to give my own thoughts, but also mostly to encourage those that are getting punished harshly and let them know that there is a way to continue playing albeit carefully. Unfortunately, I'm not very good at reassuring others, because I'm just a very pessimistic person, but I'll keep trying to do what I can to help anyone who is genuinely worried about their account health.

Subdue1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=2E8dqxs9,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-03T07:10:15.561+0000)

Sorry to be blunt, but I'm bored of this line of thinking. I don't care about the economics or logistics of the system. As a player, the only aspect of a punishment system that matters to me is it's fairness.

You can dissect a million more of my statements and you won't change my mind. A punishment system needs to be fair or else it's not achieving its true purpose. A fair system will consider context and review a game on a case by case basis in order to give an appropriate judgement. The current system does none of these things, because it is designed to detect trigger words and automatically dish out punishment.

There is no list of words that are considered unacceptable and there is no clear line established between banter and harassment. These are both aspects of a vague system that is more focused on efficiency than integrity. When a company sacrifices its integrity in favor of money it loses its customers' support.

Personally, I no longer wish to support this company based on the direction its currently heading in, but I still continue to play this game because I'm diamond elo on my main and I value the competition my matches provide. Paying any more money for content is certainly out the window, but I refuse to stop playing just because riot doesn't give a shit about me or most of their customers. I enjoy my matches and that's all that matters to me as a player.

It's good that all you care about is fairness. After all, the vast majority of players who get penalized understand the cause and don't bother to appeal the decision, and the ones that do try to appeal on the boards, who post their logs, most of the time are told by the community that their punishment is fair.

If the automated system's assessment is fair, what difference does it make if a human reviewed the case?

Ninja Assassin1 votes

I mean, I know you're just throwing out statistics that you don't actually have or know. Also, this player behavior community is a very biased minority of the player-base so I'm really just unconcerned with their opinion on fairness and just punishment. You come back with some legitimate information and maybe we can exchange some dialogue.

Subdue1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=2E8dqxs9,comment-id=0001000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2018-02-04T23:40:58.478+0000)

I mean, I know you're just throwing out statistics that you don't actually have or know. Also, this player behavior community is a very biased minority of the player-base so I'm really just unconcerned with their opinion on fairness and just punishment. You come back with some legitimate information and maybe we can exchange some dialogue.

Riot has posted numerous times that those who receive punishments are few and far between. Riot has also posted that the instant feedback system analyzes what behaviors people report and uses those analytics to determine what is acceptable or not.

What you are "concerned" with doesn't change the facts.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Those aren't facts. They are vague statements that can be interpreted in multiple ways. What percentage of players are punished? What percentage go to the boards for clarification vs just suck it up? This is not information, and they leave it vague without any numerical values on purpose. I'm done with this line of reasoning that you can't even back up.

Subdue1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=2E8dqxs9,comment-id=000100000000000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T01:01:26.631+0000)

Those aren't facts. They are vague statements that can be interpreted in multiple ways. What percentage of players are punished? What percentage go to the boards for clarification vs just suck it up? This is not information, and they leave it vague without any numerical values on purpose. I'm done with this line of reasoning that you can't even back up.

Well, we know that the percentage of players that get permanently banned is .006%. That number is all over the boards, and I believe it made it into the permanent ban messaging from Riot too. The ones that get penalized but not permabanned presumably understood what was wrong with their behavior and fixed it, which implies that there was something wrong.

Besides, you're the one claiming that something is wrong with the existing system. Shouldn't you be providing evidence of unfair rulings?

Burden of proof falls on the accuser after all.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

Nope. All I do is speak based on my own experiences, but one thing I definitely do not do is make conclusions based on incorrect or incomplete information. Argue with me all you want, but don't expect me to believe any info that you throw out without any proof.

fleeman1 votes

{quoted}

Riot has posted numerous times that those who receive punishments are few and far between. Riot has also posted that the instant feedback system analyzes what behaviors people report and uses those analytics to determine what is acceptable or not.

What you are "concerned" with doesn't change the facts.

Oh golly gee! Tell us more please? Riot games defending its own punishment system.....no bias there at all.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

Oh golly gee! Tell us more please? Riot games defending its own punishment system.....no bias there at all.

Of course they defend it. Anyone with self respect stands by the quality of their work.

Are you suggesting that Riot lies about the numbers?

Ninja Assassin1 votes

No, he's suggesting that they present the numbers in a way that favors themselves, like most companies do with statistics that have multiple factors.

Mordius1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Elite ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=2E8dqxs9,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-03T04:40:39.676+0000)

Companies that care about their customers will offer them benefits and privileges in exchange for their continued support.

Please provide one example of this

Ninja Assassin1 votes

I'm a comcast customer. Last year the when they changed their prices they took me off of my HBO subscription. When I called them to renew it, not only did they change it over the phone, but they gave me 6 months of free HBO.

It's a very naive to think that companies do not take care of their own customers just because riot games doesn't.

EL HAMSTERO3 votes

not actually impossible.

riot games owner tencent made 21 billion in 2017. hiring 1250 employees at 40k per year would cost 50 million dollars or about 2.5% of their annual revenue. not cheap but hardly something they cant afford.

the thing is like everyone else they are extremely greedy. why spend 50 million dollars if you dont have to?

Umbral Regent2 votes

You do realize that it's a low rough estimate, and nowhere near representative of what the actual costs would be in this day, this year. More than that, it's a lowball estimate of outdated information - using numbers from 2016, so the playerbase has likely grown.

And then of course there's the fact that he was using generous estimates (10% of the playerbase for NA alone, rounded down from 11%, as well as the "two games a day" snippet, which is extremely generous).

So, in reality, the costs could be much, much higher, potentially even being double than what was used in the example. Besides, getting 1000-1500 employees specifically for manually reviewing reports (non-stop for eight hours, mind) for the whole League playerbase is beyond unfeasible.

It's not greed that prevents them from making such absurd costs on such an absurd change in system - it's logic.

Player3Th0mas3 votes

riot games owner tencent made 21 billion in 2017

Yeah but it's probably still riot games themselves who need to pay for salaries and such.

Furthermore, riot games "made" 1.6 billion in 2017, but you don't see the difference between revenue and profit.

So yeah they might be made a lot of money, but you don't know their profit. A company can make 5 billion a year, and still lose money because all of their expenses together are more than that.

Now I doubt riot is going in the negatives, but they did state that esports isn't profitable, but they're still doing it.

Tldr revenue =/= profit

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Riot Games is not Tencent's only investment. They are invested in a vast number of other businesses and projects. Expecting them to foot the bill for one of their subsidiaries to do something that legally would be the subsidiary's responsibility in the first place is silly. Riot is responsible for their own hiring and payroll. Rather than look at Tencent's profit you should look at Riot Games itself.

Friendly Ram3 votes

Nice math, I just wish that riot was more open with fixing their mistakes.

Lothàrs Edge2 votes

It's poorly automated though. Any false reports stack the report count against you and flag your account.

It's also not very consistent. Racially derogatory names/club-tags, borderline-offensive names are offenses that aren't considered to be high priority.

To top it off, there was an admin/moderator on these forums who specifically said that they do take context into account, and that the # of reports you get doesn't matter. The only thing that matters, is the # of reports you get overtime, regardless of their legitimacy.

KVbqbFsC8e3 votes

Your first and last points haven't been true ever since they switched to the IFS. There hasn't been such a thing as "false reports" for a long time now and you won't get punished for non legit reports like you could back when they'd stack chat restricted games.

Lothàrs Edge2 votes

When did they switch to IFS?

I'm not saying you'll get punished, I'm saying your account gets flagged because of the higher fluctuation of reports. This is a proven fact for that infamous nunu jungler as well as any other person who frequents off-meta champions that can still pull off a 50-80% WR with more than 30 games.

Usually when a chat restriction occurs, 3 games are given to provide examples of your own 'toxicity'. In the past, I've only ever needed 1.

KVbqbFsC8e2 votes

They switched to the current system around mid Season 5. Before then you could rack up hundreds of games worth of chat restrictions.

The reason the Nunu ban happened was because of a manual review. Getting a ton of reports without being punished can lead to that. The Nunu being banned wasn't decided by the system though, someone from Riot support made that decision.

I see that last point all of the time. Its actually pretty common to not receive 3 games as examples.

y0r1ck1 votes

Who says you need human review to look at context? I upvoted for visibility but I disagree. Context is important for fair punishments and heuristics would make the job considerably easier.

Player3Th0mas4 votes

I never said context isn't important. It is, I 100% agree with that. One fu ck off bit ch isn't the same as another fuc k off bit ch. But a ky s fg t is always the same imo. There's just things you can't say.

And yeah heuristics would be the best course of action, but the problem with heuristics is that there is not a single AI currently available that can detect banter from jokes from hate speech. Not a single AI that can see the difference between a fuck you (haha) and a fuck you (fuck you).

There are AI who try to do that, but those are still in early development and have been since early 2000. One has been dissecting an abnormal amount of twitter tweets for over 10 years already, and that one still can't see the difference in many cases.

League talk is different, and a new AI with new rules would have to be built, and it would have to analyse millions and millions of games over the course of multiple years to be able to come close to what you want.

As of right now, the only reliable source of context judges are humans.

Ninja Assassin1 votes

{quoted}

I never said context isn't important. It is, I 100% agree with that. One fu ck off bit ch isn't the same as another fuc k off bit ch. But a ky s fg t is always the same imo. There's just things you can't say.

That's contradictory. Either context matters to you or it doesn't. Waffling around the issue is a weak way to make an assertion. There are no words or phrases that should be deemed unacceptable regardless of context.

Player3Th0mas3 votes

Depends on the severity of the phrases.

EL HAMSTERO1 votes

ever heard of the blackstone principle?

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

Player3Th0mas2 votes

Lol.

First of all that doesn't apply for a ban in a videogame. That applies for ruining someone's life, getting them a stigma and letting them have a criminal record. Getting banned from a videogame after multiple violations doesn't compare to that.


Second of all, if you are unjustly punished, you can use player support to appeal your ban. If it turns out you have been unjustly punished they can revert it. You will be banned for a maximum of 2 whole days max if they revert it (that's the maximum support response time)

Naramiel2 votes

{quoted}

Lol.

First of all that doesn't apply for a ban in a videogame. That applies for ruining someone's life, getting them a stigma and letting them have a criminal record. Getting banned from a videogame after multiple violations doesn't compare to that.

Sure, the penalty isn't as great, but neither is the need to deliver it. You can't say "every guilty person MUST be punished as swiftly as possible" but also say "but it's no big if an innocent person is punished". (I'm not saying the existing system is broken, but this particular argument is pretty thin.)

Second of all, if you are unjustly punished, you can use player support to appeal your ban. If it turns out you have been unjustly punished they can revert it. You will be banned for a maximum of 2 whole days max if they revert it (that's the maximum support response time)

Again, being a bit of a devil's advocate, but support doesn't always get it right. Any thread you're reading on the forums where a Rioter finally fixes the issue took a LOT longer than 2 days total, and was probably pretty traumatic for the player in question.

Subdue1 votes

[{quoted}](name=EL HAMSTERO,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=2E8dqxs9,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-02-04T15:58:21.775+0000)

ever heard of the blackstone principle?

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

That quote references guilt as an unknown. Did the accused do what he is accused of? Is there proof of it?

This is not analogous to the the instant feedback system. The system knows without a doubt what the accused said. It is only deciphering what was said and deciding if what was said made the accused *guilty enough *to penalize.

And the criteria it uses to decide that is pitifully low to be honest. If offers a lot more leeway than I'd like, personally. But the vast majority of players never receive so much as a warning. And of those that do, the majority adjust their behavior and are never noticed by the system again.

It is only a tiniest fraction of the player base that is so toxic that even with the laughably low threshold for decency they get flagged and banned repeatedly and /or permanently.

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