A question about the assassin rework

WrÆth·Jun 26, 2016·3 votes·13,133 views

Are champions who can be played as assassins but are mainly bruisers or fighters such as Vi or Zac going to be reworked? Also, is there whole kit going to be reworked or just the numbers?

71 Comments

SuchSwagSuchweedJun 26, 20161 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/Tnfw1WW6-next-class-update-the-assassins here's the list. Also here's the champions being changed Akali Ekko Evelynn Fizz Kassadin Katarina Kha'Zix LeBlanc Rengar Shaco Talon Zed

RiotMeddlerJun 26, 20165 votes

Quick clarification here - this is the list of champions we're considering changes to, not a list of champions that are getting changes. At the very least we won't be making major changes to everyone listed there.

Because assassins have been a problematic class for years it's also likely we'll end up doing slightly fewer bigger updates this time than with mages and marksmen (so less than 6).

Edit: Poor phrasing on my part there. What I think's likely here is that we do a smaller number of updates this time, with the updates we do do being bigger than average (more work needed per champion).

HigeJun 26, 20163 votes

I don't understand? if the assassin class has been problematic for years, shouldn't you strive to solve these issues with a class update? I mean the size of the project is adequate in order to solve these but you won't tackle them all?

RiotMeddlerJun 26, 20161 votes

We'll be putting the same amount of resources in as with other class updates. We think each individual champion's likely to be a bigger than usual project though to do well. Might have to do fewer champions as a result.

HigeJun 26, 20161 votes

uhm well that's a shame but then... can we expect an assassin update v2? or will you be working on the outliers on a by patch basis?

Either way I think you guys should consider simply taking longer with the assassin update :/ since they are the most broken class and even the assassin mains would benefit from a good fixing of the whole class

AbyssphereJun 28, 20161 votes

You have to remember that some assassins are so broken that Riot need to give them VGUs in order to properly fix them. They may only get to 4 big assassin updates in this group update, which will leave some problem children still in a bad spot, but Riot will get around to them individually in VGUs. They've already confirmed that they very much want to give both Evelynn and Akali full VGUs, so it's OK if their issues aren't fixed in the assassin update and they focused on the others instead. If they gave full reworks to those two champions, gave group reworks to let's say Kat, Talon, Rengar and Kha'Zix, plus small updates to Zed, Fizz and anyone else, you'd have a pretty comprehensive improvement in the assassin class eventually.

The good thing about assassins is how few of them there are. Even if you assume every assassin needs a rework, they can all be got around to comparatively quickly. The mage update by contrast left so many champions untouched despite being huge.

DecritJun 28, 20161 votes

If they do rooster updates they do to avoid VGUs.

It does not mean they won' t get a VGU, because everyone will eventually get one including already updated champions, it just means that they have to step harder gameplay-wise to fix them. Plus, being a rooster update, allows them to do so coherently and to not step on each other' s toes.

DeclinedJun 26, 20162 votes

You can save yourselves some $$$ and time on Rengar if you keep him the same but change the coding of his jump/basic attack.

Because the coding considers it a basic attack, there's no way to dodge it. What you can do is (try) to stop his jump, becoming invulnerable or buying enough defensive items to survive his burst and then try to flee.

Having to buy those defensive items on carries really screw up the balance at times.

If you remember the crit on his jump/q, it became so bad you had to nerf it. https://youtu.be/qnhS4PwkIws?t=20s

I'd say this is poor design making, not because of the crit, but the inability to counter it.

League has come a long way since he was released, so while it might not have been possible to change back then, how about now?

MLDzXnRRRJun 26, 20163 votes

{quoted}

You can save yourselves some $$$ and time on Rengar if you keep him the same but change the coding of his jump/basic attack.

Because the coding considers it a basic attack, there's no way to dodge it. What you can do is (try) to stop his jump, becoming invulnerable or buying enough defensive items to survive his burst and then try to flee.

Having to buy those defensive items on carries really screw up the balance at times.

If you remember the crit on his jump/q, it became so bad you had to nerf it. https://youtu.be/qnhS4PwkIws?t=20s

I'd say this is poor design making, not because of the crit, but the inability to counter it.

League has come a long way since he was released, so while it might not have been possible to change back then, how about now?

How do you dodge ADCs attacking you from 500-700 range?

warpenguin555Jun 26, 20161 votes

So it might be a Big 4 this time instead of a Big 6?

RiotReav3Jun 27, 20162 votes

Correct. Though they might be a "Bigger 4." Think Vlad/Graves scope with 2-3 abilities changed for all the projects. Not sure if this will 100% be the case or not, it's just the current thinking.

La BelloJun 27, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Correct. Though they might be a "Bigger 4." Think Vlad/Graves scope with 2-3 abilities changed for all the projects. Not sure if this will 100% be the case or not, it's just the current thinking.

How transparent are you goings to be come this time around? Do you plan to run any rough draft sketches by the community or communicate with mains? Or is this going to be a big SUPRISE when its PBE all at once.

RiotReav3Jun 28, 20164 votes

We will do direction posts similar to what we did with the Mage update. We won't be posting any exact changelists or anything.

We do communicate with Mains on all our updates/reworks though. We always do internal playtests where we bring in roughly 5-10 mains of a champion, and have them play them here at Riot. We get there feedback and have long discussions with them about the changes.

KeevalroyJun 28, 20166 votes

We do communicate with Mains on all our updates/reworks though. We always do internal playtests where we bring in roughly 5-10 mains of a champion, and have them play them here at Riot. We get there feedback and have long discussions with them about the changes.

And when did this start? Because uhh... Cassiopeia Graves Mordekaiser Shen were met with disapproval or disappointment from their fans, Cass and Morde were especially _hated _ and there was an immediate demand for reverts, and the fans were met with a wall of silence or the unsaid but implied: "I don't care what you think because I know better than you; I'm a Riot dev" attitude. How much has changed since then?

Edit: I'm only using these examples because they're more recent.

Edit 2: Fine, I'll add a few more.

Fiora , who was reworked with no interaction, and was left alone for MONTHS while she and Darius 1v1'd for the entire duration of the Juggernaut meta and shat on anyone else that got in their way. Darius was nerfed, but Fiora's kit remains to be outrageously toxic no matter how many times she was nerfed, and a portion of her dedicated mains have given up on her since she feels wrong.

Gangplank The GP mains were few in number, and were disappointed when the light-hearted stereotypical pirate got grim and serious, and apparently wanted to be Donkey Kong since his kit revolves completely around barrels. Yes, that's very "pirate-y."

Maokai (Personal gripe here): I was so excited to see the new Mao, but then when I looked at his decreased W range, I was confused since it would make his ganking more difficult than it already was, then people figured out top Mao was the best, and since then, his kit has been balanced around being a top laner. So here's a suggestion, get him back into the jungle where he belongs.

His last Q nerf hit him pretty hard, hurting top lane, and crushing his first jungle clear, so what can we do about that? Mao's theme is being a spirit of the forest, so why not make his W reflect that? While in the jungle, he should be able to hit an entire camp with his W if they are within a certain distance, but only those jungle monsters - champions in or out of the jungle will still be rooted as a single target. Maybe testing on multiple champion roots while in the jungle if his ult is on might work? Just some thoughts.

Quinn Where's Valor? Why wasn't Valor a part of her kit like he was originally intended to be? He's just a glorified taxi service now.

Skarner Enough mini-games. Stop. Just stop with them. They aren't fun, they don't bring interesting interactions, they're shoehorned in to artificially create "fun and unique" designs. That particular phrase makes me puke because to many players who aren't you, it usually means it's going to be frustrating and unwanted. Example? Spires? Vital points? Villains? Test of Spirit? Whack-a-Barrel?

Velkoz We told you he was perfect. We told you he didn't need changed. We begged you not to touch him. You did anyway because "why not?" Don't tell us you wanted him to have a niche, because he did. It was similar to Xerath or Lux, yes, but he was unique, and this time you finally made a champion who was truly both unique and healthy...and you steamrolled ahead because Rito Nowz Bezt! Then you did a half revert of the rework because, what a surprise, he didn't need changing after all.

AbyssphereJun 28, 20161 votes

What are you talking about with Graves lol. His rework was instantly the best received of all of the ADC reworks last year. He got huge threads saying "Wow, I never thought I'd say this but good job CertainlyT" and so on. Shen went down badly but given the recency of that rework I would assume that Riot got some of his mains in, and they just happened to be a poor sample of his playerbase. Cass's first rework (and maybe Morde?) was probably before they started getting mains in to playtest.

KeevalroyJun 28, 20162 votes

I saw plenty of people missing the old Graves and not liking the ammo system or the general not being able to play him because he's permabanned for being toxic broken bullshit, and when they did get the chance, it didn't feel good / right.

WrathOfCelloJun 28, 20163 votes

Don't forget the loss of Valor in the Quinn update. I think a lot of people who liked her before miss the melee.

KeevalroyJun 28, 20161 votes

Yes, but again, I just chose a few. If I added more (which I definitely could have,) it would bring more debates than answered questions.

Valor Air ForceJun 28, 20161 votes

True.

Pierce The VealJun 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And when did this start? Because uhh... were met with disapproval or disappointment from their fans, Cass and Morde were especially _hated _ and there was an immediate demand for reverts, and the fans were met with a wall of silence or the unsaid but implied: "I don't care what you think because I know better than you; I'm a Riot dev" attitude. How much has changed since then?

Edit: I'm only using these examples because they're more recent.

Love how Reav3 (Riot) goes silent as soon as we mention how little they cooperated with us back then.

Throw skarner in as well. He switchhed from permaslow tank, to tanky dps, to whatever the hell he is now without giving a damn that the community didn't want those changes.

Fiora players didn't like the changes to Fiora either. Nobody listened because "this is the perfect rework!!!!!"

Sahn UzalJun 28, 20163 votes

The GP mains were few in number, and were disappointed when the light-hearted stereotypical pirate got grim and serious, and apparently wanted to be Donkey Kong since his kit revolves completely around barrels. Yes, that's very "pirate-y."

Actually Gangplank has always been a serious/ grim dude in his lore. His ingame quotes just REALLY didn't live up to that fantasy, IIRC, his old lore is still canon. Those events just happened BEFORE burning Tides

The barrels make sense since Gangplank is not a fair Fighter, he's getting old, he has a robotic arm etc. He COULD beat people in a sword fight, but he is not even going to let you try. IMO, they nailed his pirate lord fantasy. Especially since his crew fires his ult for him and, most likely, throws down those barrels for him. He may not have an actual ingame crew, but this Tristana splash does show his crew carries those barrels around for him.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Tristana_4.jpg

AramsAreBestJun 28, 20161 votes

Who cares about lore.

dapositivevikingJun 28, 20165 votes

i do, riot games does, that person you replied to does,

Sahn UzalJun 28, 20162 votes

Can confirm :^)

dapositivevikingJun 28, 20161 votes

tidal tyrant cares about lore

ULTRAF0RCEJun 28, 20161 votes

reminds me of my worries of them basing any updates to Lux off of her in game personality versus her lore stuff which is much more interesting overall, I love her current kit but if they were to change it a lot to have it fit more with her abilities to learn spells I would probably eventually accept that. The whole thing with her light binding is literally just a version of morgs dark binding that she learned by watching morgana use the spell a single time.

RiotReav3Jun 28, 201612 votes

Hey KeevalRoy,

First off, sorry that you feel we don't listen or ignore the player base. Not sure when player labs first started as they were already going on for all champions when I joined Riot, which was around when the Marksmen update happened. I know we did player labs on all the marksmen though,

To answer your questions on the champions above I feel like I have to give a little context into how we gather data and analyze which champions were successful or not, even if it will be a little hard to hear, since it seems you really didn't like many of the recent updates.

Aside from the player labs that happen while in development we also gather a ton of data from the playerbase after a champion rework is released. We gather what we call "Targeted" and "Untargeted" data from surveys that go out to the player base. What do these mean?

"Targeted" - Survey to players that play that Champion

"Untargeted" - Survey to anyone that plays LoL

We ask many questions on the surveys regarding Gameplay, Art, Narrative, Theme, Overall Feelings.

For example, while some people on these forums didn't like the Taric changes, Taric had our highest "Targeted" and "Untargeted" scores of any rework ever done by the Champion update team. In fact, his "Targeted" scores were much higher then his "Untargeted" scores which means that most Taric mains were very happy with the rework,

These go out to a much larger portion of the playerbase then are on the forums. It also goes out to all regions, NA/EU/China/Korea/Brazil. While I believe that the players on these boards opinions and thoughts are super important (it's why I spend a good amount of time on the boards,) I think it would be unfair to say that the players that do go on here and post represent the entire player base for a certain champion.

I do realize this is a super quick rundown of how we gather data, if you have any more questions about this process feel free to ask and I will answer as best I can (Not directly on the Insights Team which is the team that gathers our data, but can answer to the best of my knowledge.)

Anyways on to you questions about Champions above

Fiora Fiora was interesting in that contrary to posts on the boards, Fiora's gameplay changes were very well received, it was her art changes that were more mixed. She also received very high scores in theme, as players thought her gameplay much better reflected a duelist/fencer.

Shen Shen was actually the opposite of Fiora. Players were very happy about his Art, but less so about the gameplay. Overall the gameplay scores were still higher then pre-rework Shen they just didn't go up enough for how much work went into it. His thematic scores however weren't very great which is why you see us saying we didn't quite hit his thematic well when we post about Shen on the boards.

Gangplank

Actually, Gangplank Taric Poppy & Sion , where all by far our highest rated reworks we have ever done. This is sentiment from Mains and Non-Mains. This data, mixed with the data from Fiora and Shen is part of the reason we stopped doing medium scope projects and started focusing mainly on the full VGUs, as when we put full resources/time into a project it usually goes very well, were the medium ones are pretty hit/miss.

Graves Graves was actually one of our highest rated roster projects ever

Mordekaiser & Skarner These 2 were pretty lateral when it came to sentiment from the larger player base. They really didn't go up or down. When it comes to data like this we don't regard them as a success because one of our goals is to improve the champion, not move it laterally. The 2nd goal of roster is to diversify the roster and add more unique gameplay to each champion, so while they didn't go up in sentiment we do think they became a bit more unique then before.

Quinn Quinn actually started out with pretty mixed results. Her gameplay scores went up very slightly, but not down. After a couple months however her gameplay scores went up significantly, which means either new players started maining her and liking her a lot or old players got more used to her kit and ended up enjoying it more.

Cassiopeia Initial Cass reaction was low, but this was partly due to her being on the weak side on launch. In fact, when her changelist leaked early even the sentiment on the boards was super positive to her changes, this changed of course when she was released super weak. After her buffs her sentiment went up quite a lot and it looks like players are enjoying her much more now.

Velkoz Vel'koz was the example were the boards and the data matched up. Players on the boards AND a large majority of Vel players didn't really like the update. We actually did bring a bunch of mains in the play the new Vel'koz and he was surprisingly one of the best received by Vel'koz mains during out internal player labs. I think that came from the idea of true damage on the Ult sounding better then it actually ended up being. We also don't have final tuning/numbers when we do player labs so he could have been slightly overtuned. What's interesting is the players during the player labs actually said they liked the kit but that they wanted us to change more, not less. Most players said they wished we completely changed his W into something else. Anyways, as you saw though we did make bigger changes to Vel'koz based on that data. As to weather we should have actually changed Vel'koz more, or not worked on him at all, I'm still not sure which was the right answer. In retrospect I believe we should have skipped him and spent more resources on Brand, which while I think turned out pretty good, could have been even better with another fully reworked ability (Maybe R?)

Anyways, hope this answered some of your questions. I know at the end of the day if you didn't really like a rework it's not going to matter to you if many other people did like it. Wanted to be as transparent as possible with this though.

RottedApplesJun 28, 20162 votes

i still despise the quinn rework. valor doesn't exist anymore, which for me makes her way less fun to play and she is really annoying to play against as well.

GixiaJun 28, 20163 votes

All this information is SUPER fascinating to me.

None of these champions are ones I've ever really had much interest in (aside from maybe Cassiopeia but I main jungle/support so I still haven't actually played her since the rework), so I've got no personal opinion on any of the reworks, but I'm always genuinely fascinated to read about stuff like this, the thoughts on what did and didn't work about large changes. I also really enjoy reading about the information we don't get access to. The boards and Reddit tend to quickly become echo chambers that just reinforce the same opinion over and over that we know isn't necessarily the majority but always feels like it is, so I love reading about what the more general population of the game thinks of things and how successful projects actually turn out to be. I wish you guys would post breakdowns like this more frequently.

RiotReav3Jun 29, 20162 votes

What;s even more fascinating is the data that is drasticallyt different between regions.

For example, China's highest rated rework BY FAR was the Darius roster update. Then MF and Garen roster projects trail behind Darius. Those 3 though are very far above the rest of the pack. I think Poppy was 4th and Taric was 5th highest rated in China.

Kei143Jun 29, 20162 votes

Please send a note to the Insights team to post more data. They are fascinating and provide tonnes of information on why Riot made certain decisions.

Example:

people were shocked to see how often they were actually queued with duos, making them not so grumpy playing with pre-made teams after they saw that data

or something like that. This was right before DQ was released by someone, which I fail to remember who. But having that information would calm alot of the DQ haters down.

I'm also super curious to see the follow data:

toxicity after the new reform system was implemented,
toxicity after hextech was installed
toxicity after DQ was installed
toxicity from premades against solo players

patmax17Jun 29, 20161 votes

Thank you for this post, I fin these comments always very interesting, partly because of the insights on how Riot works and gathers data, but mostly because after a rework (or any new content, really) is out, there usually isn't much talk about it. Knowing what you think of your reworked champs a few months after their releases (when numbers have been assessed) is something I find interesting :)

The Blue RajahJun 29, 20162 votes

This is one of the best posts I've seen. Lots of really interesting information, increasing clarity through greater transparency. Spot on.

VekknaJun 29, 20161 votes

How is the Zyra update received by mains? Do you separate data for mid vs support?

I'm curious because I would give it a 2/10, and the only reason it's that high is the movement speed buff.

RiotReav3Jun 29, 20161 votes

Vlad and Zyra were actually our highest rated reworks for the mage update, from mains and non-mains. We actually don't separate mid vs support but it is a good point and we probably should in the future.

VekknaJun 29, 20163 votes

Thanks for the reply. Since you're here, I want to tell you something that's very important to me that I feel Riot is not taking very seriously.

During the Zyra preview, y'all said she would be balanced as a support. That was revised to balancing both equally.

When the finished product released, my first impression was that it was a massive buff to supp Zyra since she relies on poke/zone. Zyra mid would suffer since she relied on direct spell damage (nerfed) with a dps component (also nerfed) in a reliable burst combo (also nerfed) typical of AP carries. That ended up being true.

The thing about Zyra mid vs. Zyra bot is that Zyra bot benefits exponentially more from passive seeds than Zyra mid. Her job is to poke, zone, and create engage opportunities for the ADC. Random seeds create more openings for her to do her job. W seeds are strongest for engage but also carry the highest risk.

Zyra's damage has always been balanced around the risk of being 700-ish units from an enemy while being glassy and immobile. The passive seeds remove that risk while still getting the job done in the support role. That is why Zyra sup is too strong right now.

Mid Zyra's job is to kill things as a carry. Right now she's good at laning, but her burst combo is weaker and totally reliant on plant damage. The passive seeds are not reliable for kill combos. You need the seeds from your W unless you're counter-engaging. Since the rework, spell damage is lower, Q is harder to land, W cooldown is longer, we have to build more CDR, and we need 3 plants to match our old 2-plant damage. Basically, we traded reliable burst for RNG steady poke, which naturally favors support Zyra.

The point is that a nerf to the W cooldown disproportionately harms mid Zyra while the rework as a whole disproportionately harmed mid Zyra and benefitted supp Zyra.

If you want to balance her for bot, you need to hit the passive harder at early levels or add passive cooldown scaling to ranks in W. If you want to balance her for mid, you need to revert the W nerf.

If you tie the passive spawns to W max, you create room to add base damage back to her spells without making her OP. Then you have three distinct approaches to the character:

Q>E max for burst with much fewer but more strategic plants E>W max for control with much fewer plants early W>E max for poke/zone with fewer plants early but rapidly increasing between levels 4 and 9

RiotReav3Jun 29, 20162 votes

Thanks for the write up! Not a designer myself and this gets into pretty detailed design stuff. Will pass this on to the designers though!

redfeenixJun 29, 20162 votes

Thanks for this reaver. You're one of my favorite rioters because you actually communicate with us honestly. You dont hide behind red tape or give 1 word answers like others. Please know that I appreciate your thorough answers which show us your thought process. Your answer about the update process was great too.

While I may disagree with some of your statements (I hate GPS e and Shen is just weird now) it's honestly refreshing hearing someone at riot communicate so honestly. Keep it up pal and know that your effort is being noticed by the players.

VekknaJun 29, 20162 votes

Ditto what Redfeenix says. I've been so unhappy in League since Zyra's rework, but nobody will talk about her. The "I hear you/I'll pass it on" goes a very long way.

It all makes more sense in the context of overwhelmingly positive feedback about her. I guess if you play her bot lane there's a whole lot to like.

redfeenixJul 18, 20161 votes

hanks for sharing these metrics!

Would it ever be viable on your end to survey ALL players that play a reworked champ after the game?

While it might be harder to sift thru the data, it would give all players a chance to share their opinions and make them feel like their concerns are important to riot. This would also counter the sentiment that riot never sends me surveys asking how I feel about this rework I just played.

Jesus is SaviorJun 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We will do direction posts similar to what we did with the Mage update. We won't be posting any exact changelists or anything.

We do communicate with Mains on all our updates/reworks though. We always do internal playtests where we bring in roughly 5-10 mains of a champion, and have them play them here at Riot. We get there feedback and have long discussions with them about the changes.

What about champs like Evelynn where the "mains" vary so much? eg: she can be played AD/crit splitpusher, AD burst bruiser, AP burst bruiser, AD permaslow tank, AP permaslow tank, AP burst assassin, AD burst assassin, etc.... All of which have completely different decision making and playstyles
How are you guys going to balance the "burst" to happen in "about 1 second" instead of "about 0.25 seconds" when things like Master Yi exist? A fed Master Yi with an AD/crit (not bruiser) build can insta-delete squishies in less than a tenth of a second with his Q > AA combo, and in less than 0.25 seconds with his Q > AA > AA combo if the first AA didn't kill them. A fed Lucian can do the same thing. Master Yi is a "melee ADC" and so isn't included in this assassin update. Lucian is also an ADC. Why are champions like this allowed to burst harder than assassins after the update? And how am I, as an assassin, supposed to deal with a melee ADC that can kill me in 0.25 seconds if my combo takes 4 times as long (1 second)?

FlemmanJun 28, 20161 votes

do you bring main from all over the world, or is it just NA main? ( for exemple, if one day you rework leblanc, will you bring faker?)

RiotReav3Jun 28, 20161 votes

Not sure about Faker, but we do get local pros to play some of our in development new champs and champion reworks sometimes, just depends on there schedules.

GinoSoldierJun 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We will do direction posts similar to what we did with the Mage update. We won't be posting any exact changelists or anything.

We do communicate with Mains on all our updates/reworks though. We always do internal playtests where we bring in roughly 5-10 mains of a champion, and have them play them here at Riot. We get there feedback and have long discussions with them about the changes.

Then please, set up a pair of official posts for the changes currently happening to Sona, Leona and Lulu. I haven't seen ANYTHING about them on the official forums at all, and i don't want to have to use twitter to discuss the changes.

RiotReav3Jun 28, 20163 votes

Sorry but those are being handled by the live gameplay team not the champion update team. I think Meddler has posted a little bit about them on the forums though,

zSkeletoRzJun 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but those are being handled by the live gameplay team not the champion update team. I think Meddler has posted a little bit about them on the forums though,

Which one of you do I contact to report the three man premade in my ARAM match yesterday who spent the last 5-10 minutes of the match telling me and my team how we are a bunch of dirty n@ggers? Because so far, no one has done anything about it. The reporting system failed, yet again. And at least two of the three are still playing. Probably telling people what dirty n@ggers they are.

Any help would be appreciated...

ULTRAF0RCEJun 28, 20161 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation This is the board which you can contact riot in regards to player behaviour.

Jesus is SaviorJun 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Quick clarification here - this is the list of champions we're considering changes to, not a list of champions that are getting changes. At the very least we won't be making major changes to everyone listed there.

Because assassins have been a problematic class for years it's also likely we'll end up doing slightly fewer bigger updates this time than with mages and marksmen (so less than 6).

Edit: Poor phrasing on my part there. What I think's likely here is that we do a smaller number of updates this time, with the updates we do do being bigger than average (more work needed per champion).

I had a question about what Statikk said about burst being increased from "less than 0.25 seconds" to "about 1 second"

How are you guys going to balance the "burst" to happen in "about 1 second" instead of "about 0.25 seconds" when things like Master Yi exist? A fed Master Yi with an AD/crit (not bruiser) build can insta-delete squishies in less than a tenth of a second with his Q > AA combo, and in less than 0.25 seconds with his Q > AA > AA combo if the first AA didn't kill them. A fed Lucian can do the same thing. Master Yi is a "melee ADC" and so isn't included in this assassin update. Lucian is also an ADC. Why are champions like this allowed to burst harder than assassins after the update? And how am I, as an assassin, supposed to deal with a melee ADC that can kill me in 0.25 seconds if my combo takes 4 times as long (1 second)?

KeevalroyJun 28, 20161 votes

If minor changes are considered, have you thought about giving Ahri's charm amp back to replace the movespeed she gets from her Q? Since thematic gameplay is being considered for recent updates, just thought I should point out that her having the "kiss of death" is a hell of a lot more thematic than throwing an orb and randomly running faster for a few seconds. It also removes a small part of the extraneous mobility that Riot keeps giving to literally everyone which would solve a little of the frustration people have with playing against her, and mobility-stuffed champions in general. She might be a good candidate for experimenting with finally addressing mobility creep and repairing the damage it's caused.

SlashStrikerJun 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Quick clarification here - this is the list of champions we're considering changes to, not a list of champions that are getting changes. At the very least we won't be making major changes to everyone listed there.

Because assassins have been a problematic class for years it's also likely we'll end up doing slightly fewer bigger updates this time than with mages and marksmen (so less than 6).

Edit: Poor phrasing on my part there. What I think's likely here is that we do a smaller number of updates this time, with the updates we do do being bigger than average (more work needed per champion).

There are still going to be Low-Scopes right?