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A champion's counter play should not be jungle help

WrÆth·12/31/2017, 6:06:39 PM·44 votes·1,937 views

Seriously, this is such an unhealthy design. Take nasus for example. A champion that rolls over pretty much everything in low elo, but is considered unplayable in high elo. One of the main reasons for this is that the way you beat nasus is ganking him constantly, because he has no re positioning abilities.

                   In low elo  junglers do not yet know how to abuse this, and that's why he is so oppressive. You pray you get a good jungler, and if you don't you have to try your best to harass him through his lifesteal and innate tankiness before he gets level 6. And if you don't get a kill, come level 6 he wins by default against almost everyone but illaoi and tryndamere.

Meanwhile in high elo we see the exact opposite happen. Junglers repeat gank the nasus and put him so far behind that he is irrelevant from that point on. He sees almost no play, and is usually considered a troll pick.

A champion should not be so oppressive in low elo yet literally unplayable in higher ranks.

Although league is a team game, part of what I'd like to see more of is the ability to individually carry, and I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't have to gamble on the skill of another player to decide your lane.

Just some thoughts.

20 Comments

Onandaga12/31/2017, 9:39:37 PM24 votes

Nasus currently has a 50.8% winrate in diamond+ currently so I don't think it is very accurate to call him "literally unplayable" in high elo. He does preform slightly better in low elo but not so much that he is broken in one elo and unplayable in another.

Anyway I agree with OP's main point that champs shouldn't be balanced around jungle ganks. Top especially should be the place for 1 on 1 duels, I really despise jungle interference in the top lane.

Sujiren12/31/2017, 6:28:32 PM18 votes

You don't really need jungle ganks to shut down nasus. It's actually the opposite, when I play vs Nasus I am worried about his jungler putting too much pressure on my lane, not allowing me to bully and zone him properly.

The one thing I truely hate about Nasus, is that he is really easy champ to get carried on. Lets say, you deny and kill him a few times as well as get cs lead, but his botlane is hard carrying. In that situation you need to group and start helping your team, because they won't be able to hold 4 vs 4. Nasus gets enough global gold from his team + some free time alone and becomes relevant again, because of natural scaling.

NotADragon2371/1/2018, 1:19:55 AM6 votes

That is literally my experience with MalzaharMalzahar I've actually looked up various times on how to deal with malzahar, and guess what, every place i looked said the same thing, "He pushes alot, so wait for jg". Meaning I automatically lose against him, every time. People im my elo (Low gold ~ Silver) don't know how to abuse natural pushers, so I end up getting poked to oblivion under my own tower/dying to him, losing the tower, and then getting flamed by my team because malzahar is constantly roaming while im farming since i coudn't do shit in the laning faze.

PokladnicaZla1/1/2018, 9:34:55 AM6 votes

How well are you informed about the specifics of Nasus's kit? You said he has one of the lowest movement speeds in the game,but I just checked and it appears to be 350 . That's the second highest base movement speed in the game . . .

Troll for Trump1/1/2018, 1:45:43 AM5 votes

Meanwhile in high elo we see the exact opposite happen. Junglers repeat gank the nasus and put him so far behind that he is irrelevant from that point on. He sees almost no play, and is usually considered a troll pick.

Nope.

Top lane is so irrelevant now that even high elo ignores it Nasus is actually one of the better picks. Top 10 highest winrates in top on many websites for plat+

What this applies more to are lane bullies, which by default have stronger early games their opponents, so, no matter what elo, there is no counterplay except jgl help.

TehNACHO12/31/2017, 6:50:18 PM3 votes

Well, for Nasus, it's that or zoning him with a high pressure champion. You don't even need kills, just shove level 1, cheese level 2, and stand between him and the minions. Hell it's really easy to get free trades on him because he's always going to be saving his Q for a minion. Low elo players also don't know how to zone btw.

While it is true if you're not playing a high pressure champion to deal with Nasus you probably need Jungle support, that's just naturally how the lane is supposed to go. At that point, Nasus (technically) counterpicked you and the lane isn't in your favor anyway.

Anatera12/31/2017, 9:33:28 PM3 votes

The solution shouldn't be the potential for individual carry. That's too far on the side of the other extreme. It should be a middle ground where the individual is capable of impacting a game, not carrying it, which was exactly what the game was before the dumbass runes were introduced.

Blåbæret1/1/2018, 12:03:48 PM2 votes

Nasus beats himself after 25 min.

ShiniXII12/31/2017, 9:44:09 PM2 votes

look at the thread name you dumb mongoloids, he listed an example and you are crucifying him for saying nasus is broken

to OP, you're right. it shouldn't be jungle's help that should be a counter, sadly Riot Games doesn't look at these threads and the balance team is 4 mexicans pulled from the border that work for minimal wage

chipndip11/1/2018, 10:36:07 PM1 votes

It should depend. Junglers exist to even the odds or make them worse, so if you pick into a bad match-up, the jungler is your way out of it. It shouldn't be the ONLY option, but still.

Broken Bandle12/31/2017, 8:21:56 PM1 votes

I thought this might be a post about Vlad or Swain, but it seems like the thing at all three of them have in common is crazy high amounts of sustain coupled with tankiness. I don't have anything useful to add to the discussion other than that if Im a wee assassin lad like Fizz into Vlad, I do anything for my jungler to keep coming back. ( IE: If he ganks for me, I gank for botlane within the next couple minutes, make him feel like it was worth his time.)

Ludens Pulse12/31/2017, 7:39:03 PM1 votes

Exactly. Same as you shouldnt have to take a certain summoner spell just to win a fight against someone. Its lame

xGunna11/2/2018, 6:30:59 PM1 votes

i think veigar is better than nasus late game

he stacks very faster and deals more damage and has giant stun

kargish1/1/2018, 4:00:33 PM1 votes

Darius Garen Illaoi Fiora Olaf Renekton

These guys win by default against Nasus, simply because the counter to Nasus is lane bullies. Even post 6 almost all of these can beat him, and some even outsustain him.

EternalFrostFire1/1/2018, 9:23:50 PM1 votes

Draven too. Always autopushes lane because of how his stacks work. Oppressive as f in lane extremely anti-fun... Unless you gank him.