Boards›[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous

Why do people say Zhonyas is the same as Hexdrinker?

SexyTaylorSwift··2 votes·1,690 views

One cost 3300 gold and the status makes you sit still in place, not able to run and not able to fight (except few instances of Fid and Morg). The other cost 1450 gold and gives you a shield when you get low on health, still have to run and still able to fight. Can we please stop saying that Zhonyas is the AP version of Hex, because it isn't anywhere near as strong.

-_-

Edit: Some arguments I've heard

"Zhonyas is better because you can control when you activate it"

Yes, that means that you can't click Zhonyas when CCd, whereas you can with Hexdrinker. It also means you can't forget or mispush hexdrinker like you can with Zhonyas.

"Maw gives 60 AD, Zhonyas gives 120 AP. Tell me which is better"

Uhm, Maw can give up to 95 AD, making it the single strongest AD item (no including full stacked sword). Zhonyas is tied for 3rd on the AP damage list behind deathcap and mana item (not including mejais).

31 Comments

DrCyanide3 votes

Because they're noobs.

item 3139 is the AD equivalent of item 3157 :

  • Both provide maximum Offensive stats in their tech tree.
  • Both provide defense against the other tech tree.
  • Both have an active that is used to get out of tough situations.

You can argue that Zhonya's active is better, but it doesn't change the fact that they're intended as equivalents.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

Yes, and given that no1 builds item 3139 over item 3156, I think it is safe to say item 3156 is better lol.

SEKAI1 votes

I build item 3139 on my Yi, it's devastating if he has it.

DrCyanide1 votes

Oh yes, many would say Hexdrinker/Maw is better, but it's not the AD version of Hourglass.

SEKAI2 votes

Wot, Zhonya is better than Hex/Maw, no argument.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

So a 1450 item that saves you is worse than a 3300 item that delays your death. Interesting.

SEKAI2 votes

The only time Zhonya would fail you is if you do it in the middle of enemy team with nobody around, and you should get punished for it if you do really do that because it's stupid.

Otherwise, if you're a mage or assassin who naturally attract cc and damage spells, after soaking damage and wasting everybody's cc and cd during a teamfight you just sit there for 2.5 sec until the fight ends, how is that not powerful? Zhonya is OP, frankly.

Maw/Hex only absorb 400 MAGIC damage, meaning, it's completely useless against cc or any damage that is physical or true damage. Zhonya grants complete invulnerability and does NOT disable whatever aoe you currently have around you, except a few.

Maw also only grants 60ad and 40mr, while Zhonya gives 120ap and 50 armour.

Sure by looking at Maw if you DO trigger the shield, it is 165.19% gold efficient, but without it being active, it is only 92.5%. Zhonya is 109.4% efficient WITHOUT the active, there seems to be no record on how efficient it is with active on. I bet it's too high because it grants something THAT good.

You can't select when you trigger Maw/Hex but you can with Zhonya, they share the same cd and Maw/Hex is only useful against 1 particular type of damage, magic, it doesn't even nullify cc like Morg's E.

Tell me which one is better.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

{quoted}

The only time Zhonya would fail you is if you do it in the middle of enemy team with nobody around, and you should get punished for it if you do really do that because it's stupid.

So, if you do it in lane, it is going to save you 1v1? No. So that right there just kills that argument. Considering that Zhonyas is actually best used in the middle of team fights so that you have protection. Using it outside of a team fight isn't going to save you.

Otherwise, if you're a mage or assassin who naturally attract cc and damage spells, after soaking damage and wasting everybody's cc during a teamfight you just sit there for 2.5 sec until the fight ends, how is that not powerful? Zhonya is OP, frankly.

You fail to realize that you can't use Zhonyas when CC'ed, and given that you are playing a mage or assassin, you will instantly get burst down. 0-2 you are. Also, unless you are Fid or Morg, you are literally useless when in Zhonyas.

Maw/Hex only absorb 400 MAGIC damage, meaning, it's completely useless against cc or any damage that is physical or true damage. Zhonya grants complete invulnerability and does NOT disable whatever aoe you currently have around you, except a few.

That is A LOT of magic damage for lane. It is also a pretty decent amount of damage for fights, considering if you fuck up enough to get into that position with the champs that actually build it, you can still get out with that shield and teammates. 0-3.

Maw also only grants 60ad and 40mr, while Zhonya gives 120ap and 50 armor. Tell me which one's better.

Considering the way AP/AD works, this is obviously just a troll comment. Not to mention that Maw can give up to 95? AD, making it literally the highest AD item. Zhonyas is T-3rd (deathcap and mana item). Unless you want to count the sword and mejais, in which case Maw is 2nd and Zhonyas is T-4th. Going with 0-5 here. Lose two points for obvious troll comment.

Sure by looking at Maw if you DO trigger the shield, it is 165.19% gold efficient, but without it being active, it is only 92.5%. Zhonya is 109.4% efficient WITHOUT the active, there seems to be no record on how efficient it is with active on. I bet it's too high because it grants something THAT good.

Gold efficiency stats are pretty stupid. I'm guessing that whole 165 number is without the other passive from maw since you only said it had 60 AD anyway. Not too mention that you get the OP passive with the 1450 hexdrinker. Why isn't that given to Zhonyas build? 0-6.

You can't select when you trigger Maw/Hex but you can with Zhonya, they sure the same cd and Maw/Hex is only useful against 1 particular type of magic damage it doesn't even nullify cc like Morg's E.

Lol, so would you trigger Hex at the point when you have full health or after you die? The way I see it, it auto triggering is better because you don't have to do anything for it to trigger, which means you can't forget to push it. It also means that you can still get the effect when you are CC'd, compared to Zhonyas, which you can't use when you are CC'd. You keep digging yourself a hole here. 0-7.

Tell me which one is better.

By your own argument, I would say we both agree that Hexdrinker is stronger.

SEKAI1 votes

You just denied math, insists that Maw is better because it's slightly more useful 1v1 (let's forget how trading works) and you admit you're too lazy to push the panic button when you're close to dying.

These champions work magnificent with Zhonya, but not limited to Ahri Akali Fiddlesticks Fizz Karthus Katarina Kayle Leblanc Lissandra Morgana Syndra TwistedFate Veigar Zilean.

The one that benefits from Maw, err... Olaf?

You can keep calling Maw the best and all, go ahead, build it every match and see how it goes. Until you get your head bashed in by enemy team that builds more than 1 Zhonya, it's totally viable, possible and strong, why? The Value of its base stat is already that delicious with that sweet arse active why wouldn't you build it if you're AP? Unless enemy team is full AP.

There is a reason to why Maw has always remained a situational item unlike Zhonya which is core for many champs.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

I see that you failed to comment on any point. Thanks for that. Not sure why you replied in the first place, but whatever floats your boat.

SEKAI1 votes

I have commented on most points, because most if not all you wrote can simply be summarised by 1 single sentence, which is my first paragraph.

I will now expand my points up so you can read.

If Maw blocks all source of damage, yeah I can see why it's a strong item. But the thing is, it doesn't. Only magic, and only 400 which is like 1 spell by mid - late game anyway.

Zhonya renders you completely untouchable AFTER you have wasted everybody's damage, cc and cd.

It's calculated that Zhonya is more gold efficient than Maw just from the stats alone, and to fully utilise Maw you need 2 conditions:

  1. This champ gets stronger or has high sustainability when the hp is low.
  2. The enemy team is mostly magic users and isn't team oriented but skirmish or 1v1 based.

For Zhonya the condition to make it work is only 1:

  1. Enemies aren't all magic users.

Now, compare.

Is there any reason to why Maw would be BETTER than Zhonya? If Zhonya is more useful than Maw 80 - 90% of the time while Maw only excels in that 10%, in the end Zhonya is still a better item.

And when is the last time you see any high elo building Maw? I haven't seen it for a very long time but anyways.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

{quoted}

I have commented on most points, because most if not all you wrote can simply be summarised by 1 single sentence, which is my first paragraph.

If Maw blocks all source of damage, yeah I can see why it's a strong item. But the thing is, it doesn't. Only magic, and only 400 which is like 1 spell by mid - late game anyway.

Right, because hex is built against AD champs, I can clearly see this being an issue.

Zhonya renders you completely untouchable AFTER you have wasted everybody's damage, cc and cd.

Again, if they 'wasted' their CC on you, you are probably dead before you can Zhonyas.

It's calculated that Zhonya is more gold efficient than Maw just from the stats alone, and to fully utilise Maw you need 2 conditions:

  1. This champ gets stronger or has high sustainability when the hp is low.
  2. The enemy team is mostly magic users and isn't team oriented but skirmish or 1v1 based.

For Zhonya the condition to make it work is only 1:

  1. Enemies aren't all magic users.

Please show me your magical calculations for gold efficiency on Maw, with BOTH passives, Hex with passive, and Zhonyas with passive.

Is there any reason to why Maw would be BETTER than Zhonya? If Zhonya is more useful than Maw 80 - 90% of the time while Maw only excels in that 10%, in the end Zhonya is still a better item.

Bottom line? Hex wins lanes against AP champs. Seeker's simply doesn't do that. And you will be so far behind by the time you buy zhonyas, that it won't matter. Since the enemy mid laner is then going to be pretty weak from having 0 kills, you could even simply sell it and build something else from it.

And when is the last time you see any high elo building Maw? I haven't seen it for a very long time but anyways.

Saying a niche item is weak because it isn't played at high elo isn't the strongest argument. Fiddles was picked like what, 1 time in the LCS thingy? Yet a bunch of people called him OP and broken and he was nerfed because of it.

SEKAI1 votes

Calculations results are on LoLwiki,

There is a reason to why a niche item is a niche item, either it really doesn't work well or it only works well under very specific conditions. Which is exactly what Maw is.

Zhonya works in almost every situation except the case where enemy team is full AP.

If you're alone to tank all the cc yeah you would be dead before you can activate Zhonya, but would you be alone in a teamfight without any peels unless you got caught out (which initiated the TF after you die)? If so that is your fault not the item's.

Building Hex against AD champs meaning you're sacrificing the shield and the defense stats it offers, just to get the potential high AD when you're close to dying, it's a waste if you ask me, too many wasted stats.

Nobody sells their Zhonya once they build it, it's like selling your GA which nobody does.

And Fiddle has always been a good pick in all elo range (except when FF ran rampant), what was OP was Crittlesticks which had nothing to do with his intended use.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

So you are saying that seekers/zhonyas is better against AD champs than hex/maw is against AP? Also, going mostly on laning phase since it has a huge impact on the game.

SEKAI1 votes

Laning phase isn't the end of everything, as it most ends with the first turret down (except top lane generally) which can be as short as 5 min into the game.

Hex is more useful than Seekers sure, but that doesn't mean it will still be more useful once they upgrade.

Having the better early item can POTENTIALLY guarantee a winning lane, but not the winning game, there are many other factors.

Zhonya is the all around one of the best item in LoL in general, Maw is a niche item that is only bought to counter specific match ups, that's their difference.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

And I notice this difference, as well as Zhonyas being a very good item. The thing is, it is going to take you a pretty damn long time to Zhonyas against a Zed with hexdrinker. He will get fed lol...and that will severely hurt your chances of winning the game.

zenzilla2 votes

Listen. There's no 1 item that's the best in ALL situations.

Knowing what you're going to build before a match starts is BAD to put it simply.

Mobafire builds etc are a great starting point. But if you wanna progress you need to th8nk about the old saying:

" the best form is no form"

Build what you need, now, forget about what i say and what these peers of ours say.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

I agree. I was simply saying that Hex is better against AP than seekers is against AD champs lol.

disregardable1 votes

Yeah, I've found that even item 3156 isn't enough to actually save you from a fed Katarina ult.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

There are so many factors that even go into that comment that make me unable to comment on it lol.

disregardable1 votes

Seriously, I've been playing ADC since I was level 18. Maw has never once saved me from a katarina ult. There was a single time when I was stuck with Pantheon top, Maw AND a Banshee's Veil together saved me from getting 1 shot by a very fed fizz. Over a thousand games. One time. Barely got out alive.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

Ok, well assuming you are 1v1 here with a champ that can't CC at all, the same can be said about any champ against Zhonyas. You are an AP champ facing a fed Vayne? Click that active and sit and wait for him to kill you.

If you are in team fight and not CCing Kat, I don't know what to tell you lol.

disregardable1 votes

The point is Zhonyas is guaranteed to mitigate all damage in a small period of time, so you can survive high burst. Hexdrinker/Maw is designed to mitigate a certain amount of damage when you're low on health, so you can survive high burst. Zhonyas actually works against fed mid lane assassins, fulfilling its intended use, and Maw doesn't.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

With Zhonyas, you might be able to survive high burst....until your effect wears off and the enemy is still sitting there waiting to kill you lol.

disregardable1 votes

You know, while all of his/her spells are on cooldown.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

Since we are talking about an item against AD champs, we can assume that right click has a 0 CD.

disregardable1 votes

Sweet heart. I think you're confusing magic resist and armor. Magic resist blocks AP- that stuff that doesn't affect your right clicking auto attacks.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

I'm not confusing anything? Since we are building Zhonyas to counter AD champs, the AA cool down doesn't really come into play here.

disregardable1 votes

Yeah, you're right, but that's not really what the active is designed for. Zhonyas is a good counter to ADCs for the 50 armor, and realistically you could just 2 shot the ADC as a mage with Zhonyas. The active is to help you survive a zed ult, a shit ton of damage being poured on you at once. The same thing Maw's active is supposed to do.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

Maw's passive* you don't have to do anything to benefit from it lol. And all I'm saying is that the Zhonya active isn't going to save you in as many situations as the Maw is. Maw can save you in team fights just as much as Zhonyas can, but in 1v1 Maw has the huge advantage, in my opinion at least.

Hexdrinker does waaaaay more in lane that seekers lol.

disregardable1 votes

Actually, it can't. Zhonyas stops an infinite amount of damage, and Maw shields 400. It's effectively useless late game. Also, Maw/Hex doesn't shield any AD at all.

Also, I'd rather have a fully stacked armguard (seriously, it takes like a wave and a half of minions) is 40 AP and 45 armor. Hex is 25 AD, 30 mr, with that useless 250 magic damage shield.

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