Since you are far more harsh on people who can't take the garbage community anymore and leave games than you are on the people who act like complete sociopaths and cause the problem in the first place, could you explain to me what it is that makes those players so much more important than reasonable people?
Lights And Magic7 votesTechnically leaving a game because of your teammate is a pretty troll/rage move tbh
AJStarhiker4 votesKnucklefist, you're completely ignoring what Eleshakai is trying to tell you. You are responsible only for your behavior. You don't 'coddle' or 'kiss-ass' in games, but that doesn't mean acting like a jerk if someone isn't playing well. Why do you equate 'expressing yourself' with harassing your teammates? You can express yourself by yelling at the computer or pounding a pillow or something and guess what? You won't get in trouble for it.
If someone else is being a jerk, how does responding in kind help anything? Instead of one person making the game unpleasent, there are two. Instead of one person risking full access to their account, there are two.
My advice? Instead of watching for every little thing your teammates do wrong, try watching for what they do right. Say thank you when the Jungler comes in to gank or if the Support sacrifices themself to let you escape and deny the enemy the gold from ending your kill streak. Tell your ADC good job when they knock down a tower or the Assassin who takes down that fleeing enemy before he can escape.
Be the better person. It's not that hard.
Eleshakai3 votesThe only valid reasons to leave games are real life oriented. It's never okay to leave 'just 'cause someone was mean to me'. There is nothing you can do about someone leaving. Whereas you CAN mute someone who is a troll. That's why the punishment is more severe for leavers.
InsaneSamurai2 votesYeah that's a perfectly good excuse to overlook how terrible the average player treats everyone else.
Eleshakai4 votesYeah that's a perfectly good excuse to overlook how terrible the average player treats everyone else.
I don't think the average person treats people terribly. My experiences have been that the vast majority of people are prettymuch neutral. They don't talk, they just want to play and have fun... and they only get involved when someone else starts something because they feel it's already over at that point.
And of those who aren't mostly silent... most of them are pretty nice. I've made a lot more friends than I've met actual trolls... but it's because I don't go into it with the attitude of 'the community is just trolls'... the attitude changes the way you act, whether you're aware of it or not.
AJStarhiker3 votesLeaving/afk is objective. It's easy to set up a program to detect whether or not a player is active in the game.
Language is subjective. It's easy to spoof filters or automatic parsing progams that it needs human oversight. That takes time, so it's a lot easier to assume it's not being punished.
InsaneSamurai1 votesThe thing is, Riot is rich beyond reason. They can afford to hire a team of dedicated moderators (like GMs from MMOs). Do you see people flipping out and griefing each other on WoW all the time? No(at least when I played it), because they have people whose job is to police the community so it isn't a torturous place to be in. This helps stop a bunch of random jerks from driving your player base away. Because Riot's player base is so large, they couldn't give a flying you know what about one guy who gets trolled alot, so they don't do anything.
InsaneSamurai2 votesDownvoting because you don't think they see things this way, or cause I'm not talking in memes? :P
Riot punishes leaving games much more quickly and consistently than people who instantly start flaming as soon as anything goes wrong. People who leave games because the community sucks don't cause problems when people are gasp reasonable. Raging sociopaths, however, keep doing what they are doing, driving the respectful people to another game that actually cares how its player base treats each other.
Knucklefist2 votesYou should get punished for leaving games. You dont like what someone says to you mute them. Most people who afk and leave were doing poorly to begin with. It's pretty rare the 15 and 1 akali decides to rage quit. Kind of like how the guy who is 0 and 7 gets mad and says ok now im feeding, because you tell them rather bluntly what they are doing wrong and what they should be doing. Or because they didnt get as many ganks as they should have gotten. Or any other imagined injustices. At 0 and 7 you were already feeding. No one is toxic to people that are doing well for the most part. Unless you are the only person doing well. Then the other 4 will flame you for sure. The only games i ever left or afked in were games that were like 10-40 4 vs 5 and my team still wouldnt quit. They still banned me for it. I think all the sensitive people should just learn to use their mute buttons. They really work I promise. You can make someone stfu in game and keep playing, when u afk or leave thats intentionally throwing the game. This whole report system entitles too many cry babies. Being blunt and assertive is considered "toxic". With a mute button the only things that should be reportable are intentionally throwing games (i.e. leaving and afking or intenional feeding etc) or hacking. Pressing tab and clicking a simple box puts a person on silence forever. Its the supreme epitomy of butthurt when you cant make it 30 minutes without leaving the game because of something someone said. IJS.
InsaneSamurai1 votesIts not uncommon for there to be two or more trolls in a game. People have been really running wild lately. I don't see the point in continuing a game when one guy is running around ignoring everyone and the other 3 are spending far more time insulting each other than they are playing the game. These people rarely agree to a surrender, and when it comes to the actual nexus going down they defend it as hard as they can, apparently all so they can sit there and argue more. And it's my fault for not sitting there and trying to babysit them for as long as they can last? That is not my job, it is their parents' job.
Eleshakai2 votesIts not uncommon for there to be two or more trolls in a game. People have been really running wild lately. I don't see the point in continuing a game when one guy is running around ignoring everyone and the other 3 are spending far more time insulting each other than they are playing the game. These people rarely agree to a surrender, and when it comes to the actual nexus going down they defend it as hard as they can, apparently all so they can sit there and argue more. And it's my fault for not sitting there and trying to babysit them for as long as they can last? That is not my job, it is their parents' job.
If you find that many trolls, I have to ask myself what you're doing to incite them... but then I read your words here and I realize I really don't want to know...
Knucklefist2 votesOooh so when people troll we musta brought it on ourselves. My bad I wasnt aware of that. All this time I was thinking it was their fault they were trolling. I guess I'm going to have to stop hacking into peoples computers and making them fail at league. {sarcasm}
Eleshakai1 votesOooh so when people troll we musta brought it on ourselves. My bad I wasnt aware of that. All this time I was thinking it was their fault they were trolling. I guess I'm going to have to stop hacking into peoples computers and making them fail at league. {sarcasm}
Judging by the way you're acting on here, I can't imagine why anyone would ever want to be less than perfectly nice to you... I can't fathom anyone harboring any ill will or negative emotions towards you. You seem like the nicest person imaginable. [sarcasm]
Knucklefist3 votesOh so let me get this straight. You not liking my attitude is a reason for you to intentionally throw a game. Yet me not liking your gameplay and unwillingness to take advice and being a dick about it is totally unacceptable. So its ok to rage about someone and troll but its not ok to rage at a troll. Glad you cleared that up for me. {more sarcasm}
Eleshakai1 votesOh so let me get this straight. You not liking my attitude is a reason for you to intentionally throw a game. Yet me not liking your gameplay and unwillingness to take advice and being a dick about it is totally unacceptable. So its ok to rage about someone and troll but its not ok to rage at a troll. Glad you cleared that up for me. {more sarcasm}
Neither are acceptable. It's NEVER okay to rage at someone. But you can only control your own attitude, not anyone else's... so if you are acting in a way that is going to bring out the worst in people, then I'm going to tell you about it in the hopes that if you RECOGNIZE it you can change and stop inciting people.
It's not acceptable to intentionally throw a game, but it's also not acceptable to bitch someone out to the point where they feel that's their best course of action.
Knucklefist1 votesMust be nice to be platinum where people actually care about whether they win or not and take it seriously. How often do people afk in platinum i wonder? How often do they intentionally feed? When YOU play a ranked game, regardless of how many normals it happens to you in, or how many times it happens to you on your smurf....... When YOU play a ranked game YOU arent dealing with half the crap I have to put up with. Don't preach to me. If someone is playing like they dont care they are making me lose my promo game why should I care if I hurt their feelings? There's a thing called common courtesy and if I'm not getting any dont expect any in return.
Eleshakai1 votesMust be nice to be platinum where people actually care about whether they win or not and take it seriously. How often do people afk in platinum i wonder? How often do they intentionally feed? When YOU play a ranked game, regardless of how many normals it happens to you in, or how many times it happens to you on your smurf....... When YOU play a ranked game YOU arent dealing with half the crap I have to put up with. Don't preach to me. If someone is playing like they dont care they are making me lose my promo game why should I care if I hurt their feelings? There's a thing called common courtesy and if I'm not getting any dont expect any in return.
I was silver at the start of last season. I played through it, and even back then it wasn't bad.
Knucklefist2 votesYou are avoiding the whole point of what I am saying. I dont care how bad it was the few games you were silver. Tonight, right now, if you go play a ranked game on your platinum account what are the odds of you getting a intentional feeder in a ranked game? How bout a rage quit? How about a person playing a character for the first time? How about someone who trolls and intentionally picks a bad character? The chances are slim to none. You dont deal with a quarter of the frustrations the thousands if not millions of people in bronze and silver deal with that are actually stuck there. I shouldnt have to be platinum to not have a 50/50 chance of having someone intentionally ruining the game. I get games where i dodge multiple queues because of negative people in character select and poor champion choices, only to get trolled after waiting 30 minutes to play again.
It really is that bad. Play 900 games at silver and bronze and you will start to see a pattern. When you are just passing through on your way to platinum it all gets lost in the sauce. Let us not forget that even when you are silver5 they still put you on the team with people that are like bronze 2, maybe even 3 i think. Meaning after climbing a division you still get stuck playing with people that you just pushed so hard to get away from.
Lose 200 games in ranked because of afks, feeders and trollers and then tell me how you feel about what should and shouldnt be said to people ruining your rank. Thats almost as many wins as you have on this account this season in ranked. and if you are wondering where the 200 number comes from thats 40% of my losses. Which is about how often i get a troll, an afk or a feeder.
Eleshakai2 votesI was silver for a full season. Season 3 I was silver for the majority of the season. I reached gold right at the end, and then when S4 started I was back in silver and had to climb out again. I have spent a lot of time in silver, and I didn't run into feeders constantly.
I didn't just magically get to plat, I worked for it. I improved. And I treated people well during it, so I didn't run into trolls that often.
I spent a long time at silver. I didn't constantly see afks, trolls, feeders, etc. I just didn't. Why? Because I treated people well. I expected the best of them, and they delivered. I've said it countless times... regardless of what you go into a game expecting, you'll rarely be surprised. You, at your core, expect to see trolls, you expect to see feeders and ragers and etc... and you're rarely surprised. I go into every game expecting that people are going to be nice, and most of the time that's what I get.
oh, and I also don't blame others. Every single game I lost, except a few during the Riot DDOS issues where I had entire games with like 2 people in them, was my fault. I was responsible for every single loss. If I went 10/1/10 and we lost, it's because I failed to make a big enough difference on the game as a whole. If I had an ally who went 0/100/2 it was because I failed to provide them with the support needed to succeed. Every single game I play, from back when I started in silver to now... was my responsibility. If you don't feel the same, then there's nothing ANYONE can do to help you.'
Edit: Oh, and one more point. There is no justification, no excuse, no reason that is acceptable for treating someone you meet in a game like crap. Sorry, I don'tr care if they went 0/100/2 and ruined the game. They deserve to be treated well. Even in ranked play, this is just a game... and the people you're playing with matter more than the game itself.
Knucklefist1 votesThats your opinion. You know they say those are like a certain body part. Its not my fault if someone goes 0-100. And they arent more important than the time of mine they wasted. You got like 250 wins bro. So im sure you dont have that many losses. I've played 4x the games as you on my main account, have twice the number of wins, but cant get ahead because im not going 50/1/39 every game to get out of bronze? That sounds stupid. I shouldnt have to play like a platinum smurf to have a decent team at the level im playing at. I wont tell myself its my fault either. I will put the blame squarely where it belongs. On the person who cant carry their own weight.
Eleshakai2 votesThats your opinion. You know they say those are like a certain body part. Its not my fault if someone goes 0-100. And they arent more important than the time of mine they wasted. You got like 250 wins bro. So im sure you dont have that many losses. I've played 4x the games as you on my main account, have twice the number of wins, but cant get ahead because im not going 50/1/39 every game to get out of bronze? That sounds stupid. I shouldnt have to play like a platinum smurf to have a decent team at the level im playing at. I wont tell myself its my fault either. I will put the blame squarely where it belongs. On the person who cant carry their own weight.
Well since you clearly have no decency and don't respect people... I'll try to appeal to you from a more practical standpoint.
Treating people like crap clearly isn't working for you. You're not rising in rank, you're losing games, and you're probably pretty close to getting punished in some way for your behaviour.
Treating people WELL clearly worked for me. I rose from silver to plat over the course of this season. So maybe give it a try?
Knucklefist2 votesThat doesnt work either. I been playing since season 1. I've been trolled HUNDREDS of games. Maybe even a thousand by now. I dont care if I ever make it to platinum. IF I am bronze and I'm not a total idiot, I expect other bronze people to not be total idiots as well. I shouldnt have to kiss anyones ass to make them play like they want to win. You were a high silver. Go climb out of bronze and keep track of how many troll you get on your way to silver 1 from bronze 5. Then tell me there arent any troll or you dont get them almost any game. Idgaf about your experiences as a silver almost gold on your way to platinum. They have absolutely zero bearing on my experiences as as bronze trying to hit silver. People in bronze have absolutely nothing to lose. There is nowhere else to drop. The mindset is TOTALLY different.
Eleshakai2 votesThat doesnt work either. I been playing since season 1. I've been trolled HUNDREDS of games. Maybe even a thousand by now. I dont care if I ever make it to platinum. IF I am bronze and I'm not a total idiot, I expect other bronze people to not be total idiots as well. I shouldnt have to kiss anyones ass to make them play like they want to win. You were a high silver. Go climb out of bronze and keep track of how many troll you get on your way to silver 1 from bronze 5. Then tell me there arent any troll or you dont get them almost any game. Idgaf about your experiences as a silver almost gold on your way to platinum. They have absolutely zero bearing on my experiences as as bronze trying to hit silver. People in bronze have absolutely nothing to lose. There is nowhere else to drop. The mindset is TOTALLY different.
I started in silver 5 last season and silver 3 this season... how is that 'high silver'?
People are people everywhere. Most people who play a game want to have fun and to win. Regardless of where they are, that's what they want... there are a few exceptions, but they're by far the minority. What happens is people have this mindset that everyone around them are trolls, that everyone but them sucks, that nobody else wants to win.... and it colours not only the way they perceive everything but also the way they ACT in general... and other people can sense that. Have you ever met someone, had a perfectly pleasant conversation with them, but afterwards had the impression that the person really didn't like you? People know. We can tell when others dislike us or don't respect us, and it's not due to anything blatant... it's just subtle language, reaction, and other queues... while some of them, like facial tics, don't translate online... enough of them do that when you're in a game with someone, they can usually tell subconsciously what you expect of them.
And it colours the way THEY act. If I go into a game, and I get the feeling from you and my three other teammates that they think I'm terrible... I'm most likely going to care less about the game. I'm probably not going to give it my all because 'who cares about these assholes judging me before they've even seen me play'. Which is in turn going to feed YOUR perception 'I was right, he really IS terrible, god everyone sucks so bad'... and that bleeds into your next game, and it just gets worse and worse over time until you come to the forums and make posts with statements like "The community is full of trolls" or "I've been trolled HUNDREDS of times", etc...
And, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say those people aren't in the wrong too - they absolutely are. But it's avoidable. It's not about kissing anyone's ass, it's about showing people a little respect and NOT assuming the worst of them before you even meet them. It's about treating others with a little dignity and not jumping down their throats over their performance in a video game.
But nevermind... you're clearly obsessed with blaming others... so have fun with that. Continue being a dick, inciting others to be dicks, and complaining when they give you exactly what you're expecting out of them... continue losing games and blaming others for it, Continue being miserable. Because that's clearly what you want. You just want someone to tell you that you're right so you can justify being angry at others for your misery... but sorry, I ain't going to. Your misery is your own fault, and it will remain as long as you continue denying that it IS your fault.
Knucklefist2 votesThats right ....blame the victim. IF a woman gets sexually assaulted im sure its her fault for wearing that miniskirt huh? FOr not running faster? Other peoples actions are never my fault. I dont know what fantasy world you live in at your computer, but here on earth.......your actions are your responsibility. If I'm constantly losing games from people who afk, or never connect, or intentionally throw....that has very little to do with me. I have been trolled HUNDREDS of times, just in this season alone. Doesnt matter if you in your wierd sense of whats right and wrong feels like It was my fault or not. Like i said. The fact that you are in a forum typing long ass paragraphs trying to convince me that other people costing me games is somehow my fault shows me just how detatched from reality you really are.
Eleshakai1 votesThats right ....blame the victim. IF a woman gets sexually assaulted im sure its her fault for wearing that miniskirt huh? FOr not running faster? Other peoples actions are never my fault. I dont know what fantasy world you live in at your computer, but here on earth.......your actions are your responsibility. If I'm constantly losing games from people who afk, or never connect, or intentionally throw....that has very little to do with me. I have been trolled HUNDREDS of times, just in this season alone. Doesnt matter if you in your wierd sense of whats right and wrong feels like It was my fault or not. Like i said. The fact that you are in a forum typing long ass paragraphs trying to convince me that other people costing me games is somehow my fault shows me just how detatched from reality you really are.
That's such a bad argument, no I don't agree with blaming a victim, when they really are a victim.
In your case, that's not what you are. If I go throwing stones at a herd of wild horses.... when they eventually stampede and kill me, I'm not a victim. In order to be a victim, I'd have to not be the direct cause of what happened to me. In your case, the behaviours you're describing ARE the cause.
I'd also wager that of those 'hundreds of trolls', probably 99% of them were just people having a bad game until you starting calling them on their bad performance. And if you'd just kept your mouth shut - not 'kissed their ass', not 'sucked up to them' - they'd probably have never actually started trolling. You might've still lost the game, but they wouldn't have trolled. You've already acknowledged that that's what you do... when someone doesn't play up to the standard you expect, you start insulting them, flaming them... and you wonder why they don't want to help you win? When a person plays badly, that's perfectly acceptable. When you start flaming them, YOU are the one in the wrong. When they respond in kind, both of you become in the wrong. It doesn't make what you did suddenly justifiable.
You're not a victim. There is nothing about you that is innocent. Sorry buddy.
Knucklefist3 voteslol you are hilarious. So every game someone trolls ...its because of something I did. Not because they are pissed at their last team, not cuz they are pissed at someone else on the team, but its my fault specifically. Cuz I'm not an ass kisser. People like you are the problem. Because you dont like me as a person you feel every game i lose is deserved. Not because of anything in game you witnessed, but because of me expressing myself in a forum outside of the game because I'm not allowed to express myself in game without getting banned. You sir are an elitist hypocrite.
Eleshakai1 voteslol you are hilarious. So every game someone trolls ...its because of something I did. Not because they are pissed at their last team, not cuz they are pissed at someone else on the team, but its my fault specifically. Cuz I'm not an ass kisser. People like you are the problem. Because you dont like me as a person you feel every game i lose is deserved. Not because of anything in game you witnessed, but because of me expressing myself in a forum outside of the game because I'm not allowed to express myself in game without getting banned. You sir are an elitist hypocrite.
Correction: Every game everyone loses is their fault. And if you're expressing yourself in a way that involves insulting others, then yes, you do NOT deserve to express yourself. If you say things like 'ah shit I screwed that up' or 'good play guys' or 'well that could've gone better' or 'we need to focus on x'... then by all means express yourself. If you express yourself by saying 'you fuckijhng suck you worthless pieceo f shit'... then no, you don't.
InsaneSamurai1 votesConstantly assuming these things isn't making having a reasonable discussion very easy. I do not insult people, I do not blame random people for my own failures, etc etc. I don't change how I talk to someone because how I think they might act because that is downright stupid. I wait to see what they actually say/do before anything, and I hope most people would do the same. I've been pleasantly surprised many a time, but that's not going to change the fact that more people act like sociopaths on here than not.
I have theories on why it's been this bad for a couple of years for me and seemingly not at all for others, but Riot won't explain anything besides "everything seems to be working fine". I'm pretty sure I've been stuck in a low MMR since I started, and since all the raging entitled children are around my rating, that's just about all I ever play with. The problem is, I don't belong here. I'm not some kind of pro or anything of the sort, but I can read, communicate with people, and cooperate with my team. At least half of the people I play with do not do any of these things(unless you count starting an argument or blaming someone as reading/communicating), which makes every game more or less a crap shoot.
Also, I like to break meta. There is nothing in the Summoners code that says "You will play a popular champ or face punishment", but the general population sure does love a scapegoat. Play a non-meta sup and it's a lose-lose. If the lane goes well it's "holy crap that adc is such a god, he practically didn't have a sup at all and went 12/2". If you lose lane, it's entirely your fault, no matter what. Adc just blind charged into the enemy 6 times in a row and fed? Your fault for not being meta. The feeding adc starts raging on you, then the rest of the team generally having no idea what actually happened down there, just assumes its your fault and joins in. Adcs will just sit back and watch you try and hold the lane by yourself, refusing to help you because they don't like your champ. Same goes for any lane, it's just compounded for sup and jungle. You'd be amazed how many times I've seen people blatantly feed a lane and then turn around and blame me because I'm a non meta jungler. I'd love to see what meta jungler can stop a 4/0 Riven 10 minutes in :P People rage on this viciously and without any remorse or fear of punishment. I can't even begin to guess at the amount of games I've spent waiting around for the next failed surrender vote listening to the team throw insult after insult, complaining about me to the enemy team, falsely reporting me after the game. All because they can't even comprehend an unpopular champ selection. This is apart from the countless games where people fight for whatever other stupid reason they can come up with.
Jubbinaut2 votes{quoted} I have theories on why it's been this bad for a couple of years for me and seemingly not at all for others
The most likely reason for this is a combination of Confirmation Bias and Negativity Bias. Combined, they can summarize to "Remembering games in a negative light has led you to believe that most people are negative, and since that's what you're looking for, that's what you tend to find."
There's a couple of reasons for that. Eleshakai has noted one of them: people tend to react to how they are viewed, whether they recognize it consciously or unconsciously. As such, seeing people in a negative light more often leads them to fulfilling those expectations.
The other reason is more personal: when you expect people to act negatively, you will tend to only remember negative actions. You genuinely won't recognize other behaviors, or will attribute them to wholly created negative motives. This is the basis of the confirmation bias: people tend to look for evidence that supports their beliefs and ignore that which doesn't.
And the thing is, everyone does it, and it applies to any viewpoint. Players who don't see a lot of trolls? They're seeing the same players you are, they're just seeing them in a different light. Instead of "That guy was a douchebag, who just wanted to ruin my game. What an ass," they think "Man, he's having a rough game. That sucks."
And later on, when you're remembering what a jerk the guy was and how he trolled your game, they don't remember him at all, except as part of "that game where people were having some trouble and we lost."
Eleshakai1 votesThe most likely reason for this is a combination of Confirmation Bias and Negativity Bias. Combined, they can summarize to "Remembering games in a negative light has led you to believe that most people are negative, and since that's what you're looking for, that's what you tend to find."
There's a couple of reasons for that. Eleshakai has noted one of them: people tend to react to how they are viewed, whether they recognize it consciously or unconsciously. As such, seeing people in a negative light more often leads them to fulfilling those expectations.
The other reason is more personal: when you expect people to act negatively, you will tend to only remember negative actions. You genuinely won't recognize other behaviors, or will attribute them to wholly created negative motives. This is the basis of the confirmation bias: people tend to look for evidence that supports their beliefs and ignore that which doesn't.
And the thing is, everyone does it, and it applies to any viewpoint. Players who don't see a lot of trolls? They're seeing the same players you are, they're just seeing them in a different light. Instead of "That guy was a douchebag, who just wanted to ruin my game. What an ass," they think "Man, he's having a rough game. That sucks."
And later on, when you're remembering what a jerk the guy was and how he trolled your game, they don't remember him at all, except as part of "that game where people were having some trouble and we lost."
Well said. Thank you.
InsaneSamurai2 votesActually it's quite the contrary. I'm pretty sure Negativity Bias(while certainly a real thing) is mainly just an excuse Riot uses to defend the community instead of actually police things or do some research on how toxic people really are.
For one thing, I'm not sure where they get a real idea of how bad it is since if a Riot guy jumps in a game with his Riot account, nobody is going to act like they normally do because the guy has Riot next to his name. I challenge them to make smurf accounts and lose a big chunk of games to simulate having a hard time jumping into pvp with veterans. Then see how their average game plays out when it's low elo and people can't tell it's a Riot employee.
You know what actually stands out? The other night I played with a friend, many games, and i didn't have one single game ruined by a troll. This is what I remember because its about as rare as winning some kind of prize. The masses of bloodthirsty children fighting amongst themselves and with me becomes quite the blur after it has been normal for so long.
Also, everyone is not seeing the same players that I am. High elo players see an entirely different portion of the community.
Jubbinaut1 votesMost of my post referred to Confirmation Bias, rather than Negativity Bias.
To clarify each (just in case): Negativity Bias is the tendency to remember negative experiences more clearly than positive experiences (and thus assign greater weight to them), while Confirmation Bias is the tendency to cling to evidence that supports a claim or belief, while ignoring or dismissing evidence that contradicts that claim or belief.
The reality of the overall situation is probably somewhere between your experiences and those of players like myself and Eleshakai. It's almost certain that many of the players you view as trolls were genuinely trying their best. And it's just as certain that many of the players we may view as merely having a bad game were genuinely trolling. Like I said, Confirmation Bias works both ways.
Consider this: Riot has full chat logs of every game played for the past few years (and it's not unreasonable that they have chat logs for every game ever played). These logs include pre-game, in-game, and post-game.
Riot has data from all of those games as well, and are capable of viewing the overall game state in a string of "snapshots," taken about 5s apart (possibly less).
There's no need for them to try such a biased experiment as you indicate above, because they have way more data than that could possibly offer. And that data doesn't risk built-in bias in data-collection.
A while back, Lyte actually ran a quick poll of the posting playerbase by opening a thread, inviting people to talk about how toxic their last 10 games were, and then he would post what was actually going on in those games.
What he found was that most people didn't run into nearly as many players who were actually considered toxic as they might have expected - though it's important to note that that doesn't mean they weren't expressing toxic behavior, merely that toxic behavior was uncommon for them.
The point, because it wasn't even remotely scientific - way too many biases in the data - was to demonstrate how the Negativity Bias can change the way we view a game, and the players in it.
It's also notable that Lyte got his start as a researcher, which makes this a dream job for him, because the amount of data available to him is ridiculous. In a real sense, all he does is research toxicity in games, and what affects it. From his perspective, it's easy to see every system Riot develops and examines as a new experiment, showing more data.
Some of what their research has shown is that some 78% of all toxicity demonstrated in games comes from the players who are categorized as "good," and who make up 77% of the overall population. There's so much more related to that. If you haven't yet, I highly recommend this video, recording his Play Nice talk at MIT. It's fascinating.
EDIT: I think at some point here, I just started babbling, so if this post seems to just ramble or have no distinct point, I apologize. I think I was trying too hard to talk about too much in too small a space.
InsaneSamurai1 votesYou make some very good points here, and I'm not going to claim that I don't look at things negatively, because that's just the kind of person I am. The thing is though, I give everyone a chance to prove me wrong, and I'm generally a nice player(until our vayne starts raging at the sup when I just watched them tower dive underleveled).
The funny thing I just realized though, is how what you're saying applies to the other end of the spectrum. Many a time have I said something with no ill-will intended, but whoever I was talking to decided it was an insult and boom, game over.
Jubbinaut1 votes{quoted} The funny thing I just realized though, is how what you're saying applies to the other end of the spectrum. Many a time have I said something with no ill-will intended, but whoever I was talking to decided it was an insult and boom, game over.
Absolutely! I actually was going to reference a post someone made relating to that exact kind of situation, but I couldn't remember what thread it was in (and I didn't post in it), so I couldn't be sure I was remembering things right, or cite it.
But yeah, it cuts every which way. You may remember that guy as being toxic because he snapped at you for nothing. And that was definitely a toxic thing to do. But he remembers you as being toxic, because of what you said.
It's a weird problem, not just of miscommunication, but of false expectations and skewed perceptions. And it's virtually impossible for anyone on the outside to do anything about.
So it comes down to this: If approaching everything with that negative outlook makes the game unfun, why not try approaching it from a positive outlook? You're probably just fooling yourself either way, but at least if you're viewing it positively, you get to enjoy it, right?
InsaneSamurai2 votesTrust me, if I could just turn on the fun switch I would :) It's just about impossible to have fun when you're trapped in a game that some random raging kids won't surrender and will try their hardest to extend as long as possible.
Jubbinaut1 votesI agree. It's hard as hell. Personally, I try to look at it as an opportunity to try out crazy plays. You won't find much safer places than already-lost games to practice flashy plays - you know, the ones that make so much awesome happen if they go right, and turn terrible if they go wrong.
This thread has pretty solid advice on ways to approach those situations. Generally, though, it boils down to finding alternate goals.
InsaneSamurai1 votesThanks, that was a very cool thread. The thing is, I honestly don't think it's my job to become accepting of raging spoiled sociopaths populating my games. I think it's Riot's job to make sure people know you can't treat each other like trash. Also, they need to actually hand out consistent enough punishments that your average player's reaction to a report wasn't to laugh at it or even encourage it. Do you think they would respond this way if they thought the report actually did anything?
Jubbinaut1 votesI wouldn't recommend accepting them. If they're that bad, mute them and report them. Have them dealt with.
But you do get to control how much they affect you, and I would recommend minimizing that effect. Frankly, I'm strongly of the opinion that the jerks simply aren't worth paying more attention to than it takes to send that report. I've got better things to do with my time.
To me, responding to a toxic player isn't a bad idea just because it can reflect poorly on you. It's a bad idea because it's a waste of my time.
It's been my experience that the players who laugh about reports are the ones who bitch the most when they do get banned. Or they're the ones that are trying to play mind-games with you to avoid punishment - after all, if people are convinced reports don't matter, they won't bother, and if they don't report, no case is built, and if no case is built, they never get punished.
Now, that's just my experience. I haven't seen any data about such a connection, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.
I do, however, believe that Riot really needs to step up their game when it comes to communicating with the community about their behavioral policies and systems. I personally believe they're some of the most effective and sophisticated systems ever used, but there's no faith in them. And I think, in large part, that's due to poor communication. Learning anything about these systems - particularly the new ones - requires more research than grad papers. And it really, really shouldn't.
SkullDuggery191 votesLook man, this is victim blaming. When someone afk's or trolls, it makes people mad. Blaming people for being mad, instead of blaming the person causing the anger, further pushes us down this silly rabbit hole we have already found ourselves in. Pretending as if a "positive attitude changes everything" is harmful to this game, and disingenuous. Maybe it is the best option to not speak or rage, but completely placing the responsibility on the response to the actions, as opposed to keeping the responsibility on the troll, is itself a negative thing to do.
I play bot lane. If my bot lane partner afk's and ruins the laning phase, it's safe to say that I won't be happy about it. God forbid I let them know how their behavior affects me, right? I mean, it isn't like we do that in real life, right?
I see your posts, and they are all victim blaming. Someone trolled your game? It's probably your fault due to your negative attitude. Did it occur to you that a negative attitude may be caused by playing with trolls constantly?
Also, not everyone sees the same players. Based on mmr, time of day, and a lot of other factors (including dumb luck), it's safe to say that while the experience evens out overall, some players may experience more negativity than others. I have a friend who played 1 game of pvp, and quit due to the community seeming like a shitstorm. 1 game, after playing bots for a while.
Constant denial, and the reinforcement of the denial on these boards, will only make the problem worse. Since when does ignoring something make it go away? This isn't practical, or a reasonable response to people who troll or afk. You must be tired of posting these same answers everyday on a different thread. A suggestion for you; when people tell you something, you should listen. You shouldn't deny the way they feel, and tell them it's all their fault. I hope you aren't and never will be a parent, because you aren't reasonable enough to address real problems without assigning the blame to the messenger. Things could be better in this game, I think that's obvious. Why not work towards making things better instead of constant victim blaming?
Jubbinaut2 votesLook man, this is victim blaming. When someone afk's or trolls, it makes people mad. Blaming people for being mad, instead of blaming the person causing the anger, further pushes us down this silly rabbit hole we have already found ourselves in. Pretending as if a "positive attitude changes everything" is harmful to this game, and disingenuous. Maybe it is the best option to not speak or rage, but completely placing the responsibility on the response to the actions, as opposed to keeping the responsibility on the troll, is itself a negative thing to do.
I'm not blaming anyone for being angry. Being angry at a bad situation is normal. I will, however, absolutely blame people for acting like jerks because of that anger. What you feel may be due to things outside of your control, but how you act is entirely under your control.
Of course, since trolls get banned same as ragers, and since - as OP notes in his main post - AFKs get punished at least as quickly, your point falls apart very quickly. This isn't about me supporting afks or trolls. It's about not accepting people acting like jerks because of it.
Trolling people is wrong. Randomly raging at people is also wrong. Leaving games is harmful to the other players, and that's wrong. Yelling at people for any of those things is also wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right. It just makes an already bad situation worse, and there's no benefit to that.
I play bot lane. If my bot lane partner afk's and ruins the laning phase, it's safe to say that I won't be happy about it. God forbid I let them know how their behavior affects me, right? I mean, it isn't like we do that in real life, right?
I suppose you might. Wandering around yelling, belittling, and berating everyone who ever does anything that inconveniences you is something you could do... but I wouldn't recommend it.
I see your posts, and they are all victim blaming. Someone trolled your game? It's probably your fault due to your negative attitude. Did it occur to you that a negative attitude may be caused by playing with trolls constantly?
You're drastically misrepresenting my point, here. Maybe even missing it entirely. I never said that if someone's trolling you it's your fault. In fact, in another post (or another draft of one of these, I forget), I said this: "If a genuine troll is going to troll you, he's going to troll you, and nothing you can say is going to change that."
However, there are times when we can influence the people around us into worse reactions. That doesn't mean that the guy who decided you were a jerk and started feeding was right... he's absolutely in the wrong. But it also doesn't mean it's okay for you to bitch at him for doing so.
And yes. Obviously, negative attitudes can come from being involved in negative situations. Toxicity spreads, from one person to another... but generally? Those players aren't toxic players. They're people having a bad day, or who just had a bad game where they got bashed on, or dealing with a string of afks. They're not nasty by nature, they're just on a hair trigger.
If there's something you can do to avoid pulling that trigger, don't you think it would be beneficial to do it?
Also, not everyone sees the same players. Based on mmr, time of day, and a lot of other factors (including dumb luck), it's safe to say that while the experience evens out overall, some players may experience more negativity than others. I have a friend who played 1 game of pvp, and quit due to the community seeming like a shitstorm. 1 game, after playing bots for a while.
Okay? I mean, that's unfortunate, but I don't see what this proves.
Constant denial, and the reinforcement of the denial on these boards, will only make the problem worse. Since when does ignoring something make it go away? This isn't practical, or a reasonable response to people who troll or afk. You must be tired of posting these same answers everyday on a different thread. A suggestion for you; when people tell you something, you should listen. You shouldn't deny the way they feel, and tell them it's all their fault. I hope you aren't and never will be a parent, because you aren't reasonable enough to address real problems without assigning the blame to the messenger. Things could be better in this game, I think that's obvious. Why not work towards making things better instead of constant victim blaming?
a) I'm not ignoring anything. Toxicity is being addressed, in all its forms. Some more effectively than others, but systems are being built to address those as well.
b) I have yet to deny the frustration that comes from these situations. I've experienced it myself, and I approach it from a position of sympathy. It sucks to be put in that position. But responding to toxicity with more toxicity isn't helpful. It's just feeding the cycle.
c) I genuinely don't understand how you think I'm blaming anyone for anything. All I've done so far is explain how Negativity Bias and Confirmation Bias can combine, in the context of the game, to lead us to see toxicity that may not exist, which in turn can lead us to becoming toxic ourselves. It's a nasty, destructive cycle, and I've done it myself. I still catch myself falling into it now and then, and force myself to stop playing.
But if most toxicity comes from players who are caught in that cycle, who are just having a bad day or a string of bad games, there's nothing I can personally do about it, except to try to help people recognize the cycle itself, so that they can learn to avoid it.
To my mind, that's not victim blaming. I see it as empowering them to take the steps to change their own situation.
SkullDuggery191 votesSnarkiness aside, letting someone know they are being an asshole is something we do in real life. You assumed I meant wandering around and belittling, but that isn't what I said. I also wouldn't recommend allowing people to talk to you however they want. The truth is somewhere in the middle, though your self-righteousness is noted.
Where is the bans for trolling? Where is the ban for dying the same way 10 times and then typing "lol, it's just a game," knowing you are disturbing people? There isn't any, or at least there are very few. Toxicity is not being addressed in all forms, its being addressed in a few. The ones that are easy to see are being addressed. I play a lot more than you do (I'm on your friends list), so take it from me when I tell you that the state of this game is at a crossroads. An uphill climb is slow, but a downhill slide is very fast. When people I know are refusing to play, there is a problem with the general community. Yes, that includes me.
Do you also empower women to not show skin because they could be raped? Here, take this sweater, I'm empowering you. You aren't empowering anyone. Also, by bringing up negativity and confirmation bias you are alluding to that being the real problem. It is not. I understand your points, they aren't that hard to understand. They are actually very child-like interpretations of the world. I can't break you out of your bubble, but the least you could do is let someone vent without having to stick in your snarky, half-baked philosophy.
Jubbinaut1 votesSnarkiness aside, letting someone know they are being an asshole is something we do in real life. You assumed I meant wandering around and belittling, but that isn't what I said. I also wouldn't recommend allowing people to talk to you however they want. The truth is somewhere in the middle, though your self-righteousness is noted.
That's true, I did make that assumption. Because the discussion you're stepping into related specifically to toxicity, and those are the common toxic responses. In short, as you weren't specific about what you meant, I assumed the common case.
As for your now-specific response: Telling someone they're an asshole is kind of an asshole thing to do. It's something done in real life, because there are different social mores there than are applicable here. Responding in real life to those who are aggressive towards you is more acceptable because there's little other recourse. There are alternatives in League - specifically, a tool built into the system that completely protects you from toxic language.
The situations aren't the same, and the socially acceptable response to them aren't, either.
Where is the bans for trolling? Where is the ban for dying the same way 10 times and then typing "lol, it's just a game," knowing you are disturbing people? There isn't any, or at least there are very few. Toxicity is not being addressed in all forms, its being addressed in a few. The ones that are easy to see are being addressed. I play a lot more than you do (I'm on your friends list), so take it from me when I tell you that the state of this game is at a crossroads. An uphill climb is slow, but a downhill slide is very fast. When people I know are refusing to play, there is a problem with the general community. Yes, that includes me.
Since the Tribunal was taken down, I've seen multiple bans for intentional feeding, a couple for spamming emotes and pings, and at least one for a more general "trolling." I saw these in the old GD forum, the old TBI forum, and one in the new General Discussion board.
I didn't save them, because I don't tend to hang on to such things. Though considering how often I seem to need them, perhaps I should start.
Thing is, though, that it's only habitual toxicity that's punished. And those aren't nearly as commonly seen as habitual behaviors - at least without the addition of verbal toxicity as well.
I'm also not really sure what our comparative play-rates has to do with anything.
Do you also empower women to not show skin because they could be raped? Here, take this sweater, I'm empowering you. You aren't empowering anyone.
I prefer rape whistles and mace. Or knives. But that's not entirely relevant.
Also, by bringing up negativity and confirmation bias you are alluding to that being the real problem. It is not. I understand your points, they aren't that hard to understand. They are actually very child-like interpretations of the world. I can't break you out of your bubble, but the least you could do is let someone vent without having to stick in your snarky, half-baked philosophy.
Except that it is. If 78% of all witnessed toxicity comes from the generally positive members of the community, one has to question why those players express that toxicity.
The obvious answer is that they're responding to other toxic players, which makes plenty of sense. But then, if those players are most likely not normally toxic, why are they being toxic in that game?
Eventually, one starts to recognize that many (not all, and not necessarily most) situations that become toxic do so because both sides are already expecting toxicity. A neutral statement from one player is viewed as toxic by the other, who reacts negatively, inciting the first into toxicity, and it spirals into an argument that leaves both remembering that terrible jerk.
Sure, there are people that are genuinely toxic. That really are just jerks and trolls. Only an idiot would assume otherwise. But those players are the ones the behavioral systems look for, because they're the ones Riot wants gone. But those players don't actually make up the majority of the toxicity in the game. Though I imagine they are the eventual source of a significant amount of it.
SkullDuggery191 votesWhat would the equivalent of rape whistles and mace be? It definitely wouldn't be taking the abuse and reporting it to authority.
The overall gist of your posts seems to be that whatever Riot is doing at the moment is perfect and working. This cannot possibly be true, as everything can be improved. Shutting down conversation by pretending everything is perfect is not a very mature, or moral thing to do.
You don't actually listen (or read), you just look for a few buzz words, and then cater your response to them. If you actually listened, you might see this huge problem that is "toxicity" (to me a ridiculous blanket statement, far overused in the LOL world) in a different light.
Jubbinaut1 votesWhat would the equivalent of rape whistles and mace be? It definitely wouldn't be taking the abuse and reporting it to authority.
I suppose that's true. But then, it's an extremely different situation.
I'm confused about what you're expecting, here.
The overall gist of your posts seems to be that whatever Riot is doing at the moment is perfect and working.
I suppose that might be inferred. It's not really my opinion on the matter, but sure.
Personally, I think that what they're doing is effective, and I know that they are working on ways to make it more effective.
So, really, it would be more accurate to state that I believe it's good, and getting better.
This cannot possibly be true, as everything can be improved.
Obviously.
Shutting down conversation by pretending everything is perfect is not a very mature, or moral thing to do.
So... it's good that I don't think it's perfect, then?
I've indicated repeatedly in multiple posts that occasional flaws do pop up. I noted in one - another thread, but perhaps you saw it anyway - my own particular concern with their current systems. I've had multiple discussions about the Leaverbuster system (thanks Eleshakai!), with the goal of determining my specific thoughts on that system.
I prefer to encourage conversation. But a useful discussion must be approached with the most thorough information possible. Most of my posts seek first to correct misperceptions about how the systems are intended to work.
Because, apparently, Riot sucks balls at communicating things like that.
You don't actually listen (or read), you just look for a few buzz words, and then cater your response to them.
I choose to address the things I find particularly relevant. Otherwise, I might have begun my prior posts by addressing your tendency towards attacking me rather than discussing the subject.
That doesn't mean I don't pay attention to what's said. Often, I go through multiple drafts of my posts, trying to be sure that I address things that need addressed, and do so clearly, and without interjecting potentially harsh immediate responses.
Sometimes, I can't find a way to say what I want to say without giving the wrong impressions, and so I simply don't address that issue in that post. Sometimes, I choose to ignore things because I think they distract from the issue at hand. Sometimes I choose wrong.
If you actually listened, you might see this huge problem that is "toxicity" (to me a ridiculous blanket statement, far overused in the LOL world) in a different light.
Statements like this lead me to think you have some kind of issue with me personally rather than my stance on the matter. If that's the case, feel free to contact me in-client.
SkullDuggery191 votesI don't even know you personally. All I know is what you post here, and I disagree with your opinion a lot. Believe it or not, this isn't a personal issue. It is an issue within a community of people who play this specific game.
I find that you often blow off (maybe you don't mean to come across like that, but you do) valid complaints. I believe that in order to understand what these players (including myself, all day trolls today) are talking about you need to experience it first hand. If that isn't possible, you should at least empathize with them. What you choose to respond with is generally fairly condescending, and I find it to be victim-blamey.
My tendency is towards attacking your posts, and their redundancy. I have not inferred that you were stupid or toxic or any of the other things that I see inferred on these boards all of the time. Frankly, I think you're a pretty intelligent person. I also think that you have a problem seeing beyond your world view, or getting past the fact that people don't approach things exactly the way you do. That Is what I think of you personally, but it is only made up of what I see on the boards and the old forums. I definitely do not know you at all.
I feel like there is very little counter-point on these boards. People are free to be insulting and toxic, as long as they agree with the hive-mind. This is my attempt to provide a different POV, and to counter point the same ol' shit I see on every thread about trolls.
Happy New Year! It's obvious that we both enjoy a good debate.
Eleshakai1 votesI don't even know you personally. All I know is what you post here, and I disagree with your opinion a lot. Believe it or not, this isn't a personal issue. It is an issue within a community of people who play this specific game.
I find that you often blow off (maybe you don't mean to come across like that, but you do) valid complaints. I believe that in order to understand what these players (including myself, all day trolls today) are talking about you need to experience it first hand. If that isn't possible, you should at least empathize with them. What you choose to respond with is generally fairly condescending, and I find it to be victim-blamey.
My tendency is towards attacking your posts, and their redundancy. I have not inferred that you were stupid or toxic or any of the other things that I see inferred on these boards all of the time. Frankly, I think you're a pretty intelligent person. I also think that you have a problem seeing beyond your world view, or getting past the fact that people don't approach things exactly the way you do. That Is what I think of you personally, but it is only made up of what I see on the boards and the old forums. I definitely do not know you at all.
I feel like there is very little counter-point on these boards. People are free to be insulting and toxic, as long as they agree with the hive-mind. This is my attempt to provide a different POV, and to counter point the same ol' shit I see on every thread about trolls.
Happy New Year! It's obvious that we both enjoy a good debate.
I think the difference in opinion more lies with what is a 'valid complaint'. I don't think the victimization is valid. Comparing rape victims to someone who insults others for their performance online is not a valid comparison and it leads to exaggerated complaints. I will clear it up for you though:
Case 1: Rape victim accused of 'asking for it' by their clothing: A person who did absolutely nothing wrong who was attacked, that's a victim.
Case 2: A person who reacts to someone's poor play by making comments that that person takes out of context and overreacts to: The person making the negative comments is not a victim. They did something wrong - during a high-stress situation, they failed to show appropriate tact. This led to the OTHER person doing something wrong by overreacting to it. As Jubbinaut said before, two wrongs do NOT make a right... but it also doesn't make either player a 'victim'. They both did something to incite the behaviour and while, certainly, neither of them deserved the magnitude of what they got, they both played a role in it getting to that point, so neither of them are innocent.
And it's an argument that I think is kind of silly. There are very few things in this world that approach the scale of crime that rape is, so comparing the way people approach it to other infractions usually leads to misrepresenting the situation. To use the above example... the reason things like rape whistles and mace and self defense techniques are valid in that case is because of the severity of the crimes. On the other hand, if you started using mace every time someone yelled at you or did something you dislike(which is essentially the equivalent of trolling/playing poorly), you'd probably be charged with assault before long. It's just not a valid comparison due to the magnitude of the infraction.
SkullDuggery191 votesWow, you've got some serious problems... /s
Any comparison has differences. Your long post pointing out the difference is irrelevant. You're missing the point. The point is that some people have a natural tendency to fight back. While you may be timid, and content with taking abuse and reporting it, some of us are not. To pretend that those of us who fight back (not start problems) are inherently wrong is poor moral judgement on your part. You are fighting against human nature, and years of conditioning. You're fighting a losing battle, and in doing so inadvertently helping the trolls who start the toxicity to begin with.
InsaneSamurai1 votesWell I did a little log of my games for the past few days and here's what happened:
1: raging and arguing between 3 teammates 2: instant leaver, toxic rest of the team who refused surrender while losing badly and arguing the whole time (leaver never came back) 3: I supported and the adc refused to help me in any way because I wasn't playing the meta, started raging/blaming, and finally tried to get the enemy team to falsely report me 4: no rage, but some of the odd matchmaking that pops up all too often(many players seem to be very new or intentionally feeding) 5: no rage, same deal with the matchmaking 6: no rage, pretty cool team 7: more matchmaking oddness, but another non-rage game. I looked at the levels and the other players in the game had 5-10% of my TB games. Does matchmaking even care about experience? 8: awesome no rage 5 in a row! 9: played with 2 friends and still got a rage/blamer for no real reason, was playing meta and having a pretty good game. Won despite him at least :) 10: rage/blame at nonmeta pick, ragers(2) began intentional feeding and trolling me. 11: rage/blame, troll attempted to get me falsely reported 11.5: no game, just accepted into a group, insulted immediately, told that was why i was allowed in, then kicked. 12: 2 trolls. and bizarre matchmaking. Checked the wins again and- My TB wins: 504, the rest of my teams combined TB wins: 81 Enemy team combined TB wins: 880 13: ranked with friend, no rage 14: ranked with friend, 1 rager and 1 guy who wouldn't cooperate with anyone 15: ranked with friend, 1 very toxic guy
That's only 15 games, but this seems about normal, and it was 60% games with trolls/ragers. If I don't count the people who may have been intentionally feeding or simply ignored everyone as trolls, there were 16 problem players, which was about 21% of the players I had on my team over these games.
Eleshakai2 votesYou make some very good points here, and I'm not going to claim that I don't look at things negatively, because that's just the kind of person I am. The thing is though, I give everyone a chance to prove me wrong, and I'm generally a nice player(until our vayne starts raging at the sup when I just watched them tower dive underleveled).
The funny thing I just realized though, is how what you're saying applies to the other end of the spectrum. Many a time have I said something with no ill-will intended, but whoever I was talking to decided it was an insult and boom, game over.
It applies to everyone, indeed. Which is why I my rule is to simply never criticize. It's not about being nice, it's just practical. Why jeopardize my chances by criticizing?
But as to the top part... trust me, I understand. I'm 29, I've lived through a fair bit. For nearly a decade I was kind of like you - incredibly negative, full of blame, prone to insulting others - not just in this game, but everywhere. So I get it. But if it's not working, it's not working... and maybe it might be time to give something else a try to see if you have a better time that way?
InsaneSamurai1 votes" incredibly negative, full of blame, prone to insulting others "
I feel like you haven't really been reading what I've been saying, and I've been around longer, I doubt age has much to do with it.