The Issue With Removing End Of Season Rewards.

AlphaKappaPika··4 votes·1,852 views

Lets just start off with the obvious, negative behavior and end of season rewards are two different things. Punishments should be specific to the crime, not on other ends of the spectrum, so punishing players for negative attitude by not letting them have something that shows skill is kinda short sided and almost dumb when you think about it. A lot of people will argue that these are "rewards" and that if the player is negative then they do not deserve the "reward" that the non-toxic players get. The people who have been suspended don't deserve the good behavior mystery skin, however, they DO deserve end of season rewards. These are skill-based things, and shouldn't be taken away for bad behavior in the first place. Not to mention the fact that if 70-80% of players reform (according to the tip in the loading screen, don't quote me i could be off.) So if that is the case then why would riot punish the 70-80% of the reformed players with the other 20-30% UN-reformed players. I can understand punishing people who have not reformed, but punishing someone who, lets say, was 2 week suspended in April for being a douchebag but then reformed and saw the error of his ways, why is he being punished again, this can surely only lead to exacerbating the problem, and essentially turning a success, (the player who reformed after getting punished in April) Into someone who doesn't give a damn about ranked and other peoples games because riot took away his rewards AFTER he was already punished. And then this player turns toxic again and will get suspended at some point again. I don't see how this can possibly lead to a better community. On the contrary, when you look at the amount of trolls in ranked, it has DRASTICALLY INCREASED, especially in lower ranks. So its basically making the community a LOT worse off.

Now lets start with the second, and probably the biggest issue with this punishment IMO. The time of the announcement, 8... months... in. and you announce a MASSIVE punishment that players were not warned about beforehand, this is similar to another situation with youtube recently. Meta tags, many people had their videos taken down by having tags like PEWDIEPIE, and things similar to that, that had nothing to do with the video but helped get a few extra views, youtube made meta tags against the rules and started taking down videos that were old, and had the tags before the rule was even made, many people actually LOST their channels, although they could generally get them back, it was a huge pain in the ass for everyone involved. So basically youtube shouldn't have taken down old videos with tags before the rule was changed. Riot, you cant just release a massive punishment essentially 80% of the way into the season, what were you thinking. You should have announced this for NEXT SEASON, not the current one, and if you do, maybe find a way to rule out the reformed players? because, as i said according to you that's 70-80% of the people who have been punished, you are basically taking out the 70-80% of reformed players to punish the 20-30% of the non-reformed players. Which is a very lazy way of doing things in my opinion.

Third, and Final point, the punishment doesn't really fit the crime in a lot of these cases. If a player got 1 or 2 week suspension at some point during the season then that's 2 weeks of not playing on his/her account. 2 weeks, now, lets look at the season so far, its about 8 months in now, and your taking away any and all the progress and work that these people put in for that very large amount of time, They could have played normals, but instead they played in stress inducing ranked, JUST to get the end of season rewards, that's saying something about how much the community cares about that border and the summoner icon, and if your gold+, the skin. I know a lot of people, including myself, who the second they got to gold quit playing ranked because they hated it so much, they went through that huge pain that is ranked, just to get that border, that icon, and that skin. You may argue that I'm confusing "work" from playing a game, but in my eyes, I would rather be at my job making money than playing ranked, especially ATM with all the trolls. I do not see ranked as "playing" I see it as work, to get to be a better player. You may not care about end of season rewards, but A LOT of people, and I mean A LOT, care a crap ton, and they would rather be banned for 2 months straight than miss their end of season rewards, i know i would. So is the 2 week suspension, which DOES fit the crime of toxicity, not enough, and if so what is a punishment that players can get that does not strip away ~10-11 months of grinding just to get the rewards?

Please no **senseless **down voting, and if you don't agree with my opinion, if you don't please comment so I can hear your reasoning, if you do agree with my opinion, then please up vote so hopefully lyte or some other rioter will see it.

Also if there is any way somebody didn't like my wording, please tell me so I can change this and make it a better discussion, I tried to keep this as professional as possible.

43 Comments

SmokedAlmonds8 votes

The season rewards may not be a reward for behavior, but they are making at least neutral behavior a requirement to earn them.

Specifically this addresses hyper aggressive and hyper critical players who aren't necessarily malicious but rather are just reckless. You can't just play through with bad behavior hoping you don't get banned, but just accepting it if you do. If you wan't ranked rewards, you have to behave.

Riot should have done a better job informing people about this policy, but they did this last year so it shouldn't be a surprise. Really this should have always been the policy and should be the policy for every event as well. Punishments should make you ineligible from getting ANY rewards for X period of time.

BastionKross4 votes

I agree. The requirement for season rewards isn't just "get to this level". It's "get to this level and don't be an asshole".

Riot could have done a better job stating that last bit, but it makes sense to not want to gift toxic players rewards.

Firu6 votes

I will address you post by acknowledging that it is just your opinion and my response is just my own. Neither of us work for Riot so this is just a friendly internet conversation!

Firstly, players are not entitled to any reward. These are things that Riot gives as bonuses and at their own discretion. Being that the game is free-to-play, we are merely stakeholders of Riot. They are not required to give us anything (and in response, we can choose to stay or leave the game as we desire).

Secondly, I do not agree with you separating out some rewards as behavioral and others as based on skill. Riot doesn't seem to make such a distinction when it comes to season rewards. This distinction seems to be one that you've made (and other players share while others do not).

Thirdly, the effort someone put into ranked (as subjective as that is) does not excuse them from behaving poorly and hurting the experience for other players. Many, many players but is as much effort and manage to not get punished for poor behavior.

In short, I am I okay with Riot saying in order to get end-of-season rewards you need to both not be a NEGATIVE element to the atmosphere and hit various levels of achievement (e.g., Silver, Gold, Plat, etc.). Remember, Riot isn't saying you have to be a GREAT or GOOD teammate (e.g., being super positive or complimenting or even speaking in a game). Riot is just punishing players who are actively taking away from the experience.

SUPER TLDR: Don't be a jerk and you get to earn end-of-season rewards. Don't be a jerk next season and you will have a chance to earn rewards again.

Alljoy2 votes

Firstly, players are entitled to any reward.

You mean 'not entitled' ?

Firu1 votes

{quoted}

You mean 'not entitled' ?

I did mean 'not entitled'. Thanks for the catch!

Alljoy1 votes

Don't mention it. o/

AlphaKappaPika1 votes

{quoted}

I will address you post by acknowledging that it is just your opinion and my response is just my own. Neither of us work for Riot so this is just a friendly internet conversation!

Firstly, players are entitled to any reward. These are things that Riot gives as bonuses and at their own discretion. Being that the game is free-to-play, we are merely stakeholders of Riot. They are not required to give us anything (and in response, we can choose to stay or leave the game as we desire).

Secondly, I do not agree with you separating out some rewards as behavioral and others as based on skill. Riot doesn't seem to make such a distinction when it comes to season rewards. This distinction seems to be one that you've made (and other players share while others do not).

Thirdly, the effort someone put into ranked (as subjective as that is) does not excuse them from behaving poorly and hurting the experience for other players. Many, many players but is as much effort and manage to not get punished for poor behavior.

In short, I am I okay with Riot saying in order to get end-of-season rewards you need to both not be a NEGATIVE element to the atmosphere and hit various levels of achievement (e.g., Silver, Gold, Plat, etc.). Remember, Riot isn't saying you have to be a GREAT or GOOD teammate (e.g., being super positive or complimenting or even speaking in a game). Riot is just punishing players who are actively taking away from the experience.

SUPER TLDR: Don't be a jerk and you get to earn end-of-season rewards. Don't be a jerk next season and you will have a chance to earn rewards again.

I agree that players are not entitled to any reward, assuming you meant to put "not" there. I can understand your thoughts that separation should not be a thing for rewards, however for me, I am more talking about the punishent, not the actual rewards themselves, I am a strong believer in that punishment should always "fit" the crime if that makes any sense to you. Now for the last thing, I never said anything in my post excusing ANY toxic behavior during the season, nor hurting the experience for other players. I am simply saying that the punishment is a bit much for the crime, considering how much effort people put into it, and the 2 week suspension should be their punishment, their experience hurting other players, was punished already, with the 2 week suspension, why should it be punished again? Those are my thoughts, good points though :D +1

Firu3 votes

{quoted}

I agree that players are not entitled to any reward, assuming you meant to put "not" there. I can understand your thoughts that separation should not be a thing for rewards, however for me, I am more talking about the punishent, not the actual rewards themselves, I am a strong believer in that punishment should always "fit" the crime if that makes any sense to you. Now for the last thing, I never said anything in my post excusing ANY toxic behavior during the season, nor hurting the experience for other players. I am simply saying that the punishment is a bit much for the crime, considering how much effort people put into it, and the 2 week suspension should be their punishment, their experience hurting other players, was punished already, with the 2 week suspension, why should it be punished again? Those are my thoughts, good points though :D +1

I'd say this is a bit subjective as well (obviously!). Rude behavior in League REALLY hurts the experience for me. I enjoy this game so much that I play despite the terrible behavior. Further, I'm just sad that I have to make a statement like that. This is my way of saying that I can even stand for the punishment to be even harsher.

In my mind, what good is a temporary punishment if they get to lay claim to a much more long lasting, end of season reward? This is my own subjective opinion as well!

AlphaKappaPika1 votes

{quoted}

I'd say this is a bit subjective as well (obviously!). Rude behavior in League REALLY hurts the experience for me. I enjoy this game so much that I play despite the terrible behavior. Further, I'm just sad that I have to make a statement like that. This is my way of saying that I can even stand for the punishment to be even harsher.

In my mind, what good is a temporary punishment if they get to lay claim to a much more long lasting, end of season reward? This is my own subjective opinion as well!

The temporary punishment reforms the player a majority of the time, and if they do not reform after that, then they are permanently suspended, that is the good of a temporary punishment IMO

Btw, Why can't all people on the boards be like this, he completely disagrees with my opinion, and ditto with mine to his, yet we still respect one another. why cant everyone be this civil :'(

Firu1 votes

{quoted}

I agree that players are not entitled to any reward, assuming you meant to put "not" there. I can understand your thoughts that separation should not be a thing for rewards, however for me, I am more talking about the punishent, not the actual rewards themselves, I am a strong believer in that punishment should always "fit" the crime if that makes any sense to you. Now for the last thing, I never said anything in my post excusing ANY toxic behavior during the season, nor hurting the experience for other players. I am simply saying that the punishment is a bit much for the crime, considering how much effort people put into it, and the 2 week suspension should be their punishment, their experience hurting other players, was punished already, with the 2 week suspension, why should it be punished again? Those are my thoughts, good points though :D +1

Seems like this should be less of a worry for you.

http://ask.fm/RiotLyte/answer/131867181506

Also Riot considers 7-day and 14-day bans as serious punishments. Which means that people who earned those must have committed some flagrant wrongs or displayed a very persistent pattern of such behaviors.

LaceUp231 votes

{quoted}

Secondly, I do not agree with you separating out some rewards as behavioral and others as based on skill. Riot doesn't seem to make such a distinction when it comes to season rewards. This distinction seems to be one that you've made (and other players share while others do not).

But, they do. Rank rewards are a result of being skilled enough to make it into Gold+. That has nothing to do with behavior. They have behavior rewards (banners for being friendly and such).

Thirdly, the effort someone put into ranked (as subjective as that is) does not excuse them from behaving poorly and hurting the experience for other players. Many, many players but is as much effort and manage to not get punished for poor behavior.

I think everyone would be ok with the punishments on "toxicity" if they punished the reason for it, i.e. trolling.

SUPER TLDR: Don't be a jerk and you get to earn end-of-season rewards. Don't be a jerk next season and you will have a chance to earn rewards again.

I think people are just upset that they could have gotten a 5 game chat restriction a year ago, with no punishments since, and still be ineligible for rewards. Which is pretty shitty in my opinion.

R1101 votes

I think people are just upset that they could have gotten a 5 game chat restriction a year ago, with no punishments since, and still be ineligible for rewards. Which is pretty shitty in my opinion.

Lyte made a little blunder when he answered that suestion on askfm.

When it comes to those with a ranked/chat restriction, only those who have currently have an active restriction lose the season rewards. They want to reward those who succesfully reformed.

LaceUp231 votes

Doesn't really sure up the issue. So people that had 1 bad day that resulted in a 5 game chat restriction that just so happened to be at the end of the season get punished while people that have possibly had many chat restrictions and/or 14 day bans don't get any type of punishment for it?

Atlas The Bird2 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't really sure up the issue. So people that had 1 bad day at the end of the season that resulted in a 5 game chat restriction get punished while people that have possibly had many chat restrictions and/or 14 day bans don't get any type of punishment for it?

If you got a 14-day ban, you don't get season rewards. Chat restrictions are a punishment in themselves, but they're more targeted for reform than a ban would be.

If you work off chat restrictions by the end of the season, there are no further punishments.

LaceUp231 votes

So someone that got a 5 game chat restriction deserves to have all their season rewards nullified while someone that has a total of over 200 games chat restriction doesn't? That doesn't really make sense to me.

Jubbinaut1 votes

To be fair, that person would have to have terrible luck, to finally have a case built, and judged, within a few hours of the Season's end.

I don't disagree with you, because it doesn't make sense, but I think that's an edge enough case that it can be safely handled manually (or act as an exception).

LaceUp231 votes

{quoted}

can be safely handled manually (or act as an exception).

Implying the support system isn't a copy paste message.

Jubbinaut1 votes

Except I wasn't referring to Support at all. Rather, what I had in mind was proactive: writing in an exception for all restrictions issued within ~5-10 hours of the Season cut-off point, or manually searching up those accounts and assigning their rewards.

But not forcing them to submit Support tickets for it. That would more than likely be a waste of resources, clogging up the Support lines more than they already are.

LaceUp231 votes

Lol, never going to happen. Nor does that help the guy that maybe gets chat restricted 2 days before the season ends and just doesn't have time to play even a couple games off.

Jubbinaut1 votes

Edge cases of edge cases. If they can't find a couple hours to burn through a handful of chat restrictions in bot matches, they're almost certainly completely unique - worth addressing, but not worth basing a system around.

If they have more restrictions than they can get through before the end of the season, it's not "luck," so much as a toxic turn - exactly the kind of issue the decision is intended to address.

LaceUp231 votes

I would imagine there are plenty of people that only play on weekends, or might only play like 2 games a week because of school and stuff. Not everyone has hours a day to play.

Jubbinaut1 votes

I should know. I'm one of them. I think I average less than a match a day.

Here's the sequence of requirements for that to be relevant, though:

  • Player must have avoided restrictions for most - if not all - of the season.
  • Player must have minimal or inconsistent available time to play.
  • Player must experience a somewhat significant uptick in toxicity (and report rate).
  • Player must receive a restriction.
  • Player must have no available time to play through the restriction.

The confluence of these 5 events is unlikely. I'd go so far as to say it's rare. It's an outlier case. And you don't build systems around outlier cases.

LaceUp231 votes

What are Lyte's numbers saying the amount of people that get punished 1 time and then never again? I don't really think it's that unreasonable to think some of those people would have the unfortunate luck of getting it in the last month or so of the season. From there it's just a chance of who plays a lot or not. So basically the requirements are:

  • Get chat restriction at end of season
  • Don't play much

Not too mention, that it doesn't really promote negative free behavior. It just tells the players not to be toxic at the end of the season lol, nothing else.

Jubbinaut2 votes

{quoted}

What are Lyte's numbers saying the amount of people that get punished 1 time and then never again? I don't really think it's that unreasonable to think some of those people would have the unfortunate luck of getting it in the last month or so of the season. From there it's just a chance of who plays a lot or not. So basically the requirements are:

  • Get chat restriction at end of season
  • Don't play much

Except that ignores something important: More than a few of those players would be exactly the players this is intended to affect.

It's pretty biased to clump the two together just to make your numbers look bigger.

Not too mention, that it doesn't really promote negative free behavior. It just tells the players not to be toxic at the end of the season lol, nothing else.

I don't disagree. It's no more fair for a player who spikes mildly at the end of the season to miss their rewards than it is for a player who spikes mildly at the beginning of the season.

Which is why - in case you missed it while you were busy nay-saying everyone - I spent my time considering how that might be addressed and prevented.

R1101 votes

Edit: Duplicate post.

R1103 votes

70% of the people who receive a restriction never receive one again. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=48063009#48063009

Also, about 5% of the playerbase won't get their ranked reward. (Based on the amount of people who got a free mystery skin) http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/01/red-post-collection-champion-update.html#3

I don't really think it's that unreasonable to think some of those people would have the unfortunate luck of getting it in the last month or so of the season.

It's not about luck, it's about not being a jerk. Riot isn't even asking to be a overwhelmingly positive player. They are only asking not to ruin other people's games.

Edit: I'm not sure if this replied to the correct comment because the nested view is looking weird :s

Jubbinaut1 votes

{quoted}

Edit: I'm not sure if this replied to the correct comment because the nested view is looking weird :s

Yeah, it stopped nesting. I hate when that happens. No worries, though.

Atlas The Bird1 votes

{quoted}

So someone that got a 5 game chat restriction deserves to have all their season rewards nullified while someone that has a total of over 200 games chat restriction doesn't? That doesn't really make sense to me.

Did you read the last post? If you have any sort of chat restrictions they will not stand in the way of you getting season rewards.

Edit: IF you work them off before the season is over.

LaceUp231 votes

Yes, "if". So too bad if you don't get to play much, or if just happen to be busy towards the end of the season. Your 5 game chat restriction means you are a toxic little fuck, but the guy that had 800 games chat restricted has most definitely reformed :D

Raw2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, "if". So too bad if you don't get to play much, or if just happen to be busy towards the end of the season. Your 5 game chat restriction means you are a toxic little fuck, but the guy that had 800 games chat restricted has most definitely reformed :D

Hey if he played 800 games without being punished again, Yes I would say that he has reformed.

http://www.auplod.com/u/daopul5c344.png

LaceUp231 votes

No, I'm saying a player that has a received a total of 800 games chat restriction lol. As in someone that maybe got 50, then 75, then 200 and so on. But, he just so happened to end his latest one 2 days before Lyte's nice little announcement, so he is just going to mute all 4 players at the start to keep his rewards.

Raw2 votes

{quoted}

No, I'm saying a player that has a received a total of 800 games chat restriction lol. As in someone that maybe got 50, then 75, then 200 and so on. But, he just so happened to end his latest one 2 days before Lyte's nice little announcement, so he is just going to mute all 4 players at the start to keep his rewards.

If he finished his 800 games of chat restrictions and avoid being punished again, it means that he has reformed. He can mute who ever he want as long he's not being toxic, I don't see a problem. If he don't want to read your bull shit he has the right to mute you.

http://www.auplod.com/u/daopul5c344.png

LaceUp231 votes

I'm not sure you have the mental capacity to understand this. Bye lol.

Raw2 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure you have the mental capacity to understand this. Bye lol.

I guess I don't but then again I've never been warned/chat restricted/banned, guess I'm doing something right.

http://www.auplod.com/u/daopul5c344.png

Atlas The Bird2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, "if". So too bad if you don't get to play much, or if just happen to be busy towards the end of the season. Your 5 game chat restriction means you are a toxic little fuck, but the guy that had 800 games chat restricted has most definitely reformed :D

If you don't have time to work off the punishment that you deserved, which is given in lieu of a BAN to help you reform your behavior, then no, you don't deserve ranked rewards. If a guy works through 800 chat restricted games then that demonstrates a will to reform, and hence they get their rewards.

What's the problem?

LaceUp231 votes

Reading comprehension OP.

Atlas The Bird2 votes

{quoted}

Reading comprehension OP.

Indeed.

Sarutobi3 votes

Is there a lot of people getting ban? Is it that hard to be a cival human being? They aren't even saying be nice. Just don't be so toxic it's not that hard.

Raw3 votes

{quoted}

Now lets start with the second, and probably the biggest issue with this punishment IMO. The time of the announcement, 8... months... in. and you announce a MASSIVE punishment that players were not warned about beforehand, this is similar to another situation with youtube recently.

I guess 11 months is not enough for you people. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/1LJP1ovA-ranked-restrictions "Q: Will all chat and ranked restricted players be ineligible for rewards at the end of the season? A: No, of the chat and ranked restricted players the ones with the worst behavioral records will not earn rewards."

http://www.auplod.com/u/daopul5c344.png

LaceUp232 votes

Yeah, that was "the worse". Now he is saying all lol. So I don't really think it's fair to say they had 11 months, because they didn't.

Live2LetDie2 votes

Toxicity is unnesscary in a video game where the environment changes game to game basis. Toxic players should lose their awards because they went against the summoner code, received a ban, and made someone else hate their game.

Example: i received an award for man of the year, I tell 12 year olds to go kill themselves etc... They rightfully should take my award away.

Being banned means you impeded on another's ability to enjoy the game and therefore you should not be awarded skins, icons, etc.. In a team based game

LaceUp231 votes

Trolling impedes on another's ability to enjoy the game, yet they aren't punished for it.

azrolator2 votes

It's a team game. If a person's teamwork is so abysmal that they are repeatedly reported for it until they are punished, I can't imagine why Riot would feel they should give them a reward for it. Riot obviously feels the same way. I am glad whenever they do something that will discourage the trolls.

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