"Tank junglers UP!!" Here's Cinderhulk "Tank junglers need nerf wtf Rito!!!"

BeatzBoyFTW·Mar 16, 2015·136 votes·9,929 views

Seriously, a lot of you guys need a lot of bitchslaps. Kept seeing all kinds of threads like this.

162 Comments

RaptameiMar 16, 201558 votes

Leblanc:

Leblanc is crap LOW WINRATE WTF RITO YOU SUCK! (picked in LCS) Leblanc is OP NO COUNTERPLAY WTF RITO YOU SUCK! (is nerfed) Leblanc is OLAFED INTO OBLIVION WTF RITO YOU SUCK! (a few months pass) Leblanc is OP NO COUNTERPLAY WTF RITO YOU SUCK!

JunkοMar 16, 20156 votes

Sadly, this was me, but instead of picked in LCS(i don't watch repetative games) it was when i actually played a game against her. Killed her 5 times, still can 100-0 anybody. Meanwhile my main Veigar gutted into the ground.

So fair.

OyddAWqJ5rMar 16, 20155 votes

I noticed that too. I completely stomped a LeBlanc in lane and she got no cs (40 i think by 10-15 mins and 0/4) but still was able to delete our adc with only half her skills. Something's just not right. I agree with letting LB do her job whether she does well or not but it shouldn't have 0 impact on her adc bursting abilities if she loses lane that hard. She should atleast have to land all her skills to make up for it.

FeathermaneMar 16, 20153 votes

These kinds of claims are demonstrable lies. Don't make statements one look at LeBlanc's wikia page can refute.

JunkοMar 16, 20158 votes

Except that literally everybody can edit the wikia and as long as it goes unnoticed, it will stay there. Like Gavid the cancelled champion being renamed to Cedrick the Seducer, or that echidnas have 9 penises on offical wikia page a long time ago.

JunkοMar 16, 20154 votes

Here is some math. Assuming LB is level 6(prob is 8-9 by the time she dies 5 times) and maxes Q: 160(+0.8 AP)+85(+0.6 AP)+80(+1.0 AP)+200(+1.3 AP) Aka 525(+3.7 AP) damage

Note that at level 6, a spuishy will usually have 600-700 health, that means the base damage ALONE could almost kill a spuishy. LB literally just needs runes an a Doran's Ring to deal the remaining damage.

Kuroi86Mar 16, 20153 votes

but still was able to delete our adc with only half her skills

Dropping full rotation vs half rotation is a HUGE difference.

Anivia has among the lowest health, Anivia having 744 at lvl 6 Lb only needs 60 AP to finish off an Anivia from full health with full rotation. A needlessly large rod is the most likely item for that. It's possible, but does take being the same level and decent cs.

Sozan5Mar 17, 20154 votes

That would be true only for 0 MR (and unless you get Sorcerers and Haunting Guise at level 6 - it is rather unlikely). To 100-0 Anivia at level 6, LeBlanc would need 105 AP.

ReazaleMar 17, 20153 votes

Or an extra Q+W/E before the all in... harass goes a long way.

ShinjusukeMar 16, 201547 votes

To be fair, there's also those of us who have been staring blankly at leblanc for like years now saying "So Kassadin's old kit was the most OP no-counterplay mage/assassin design in the game but Leblanc's design is totally okay?"

Not all of us are hypocrites #LeblancHater4lyfe

A Miss FortuneMar 16, 20156 votes

Leblanc can be powerful though her damage is often directed towards a single person. She often will die immediately if cc'ed in a teamfight or just simply focused.

I don't see why people complain about Leblanc when Nidalee's single spear can do as much as Leblanc's whole combo. On top of that Nidalee has a manaless escape on a far lower cooldown, a heal, and an execute.

Leblanc might not be the most balanced champion or fun champion to play against, though she certainly isn't League's biggest problem. Anyone who disagrees seriously should focus on learning how to counterplay Leblanc.

ReazaleMar 16, 20153 votes

450+1.2ap(nidalee spear max dmg)? does as much dmg than 1435+3.7ap (full leblanc comob) ok , guess thats was an exageration.

Leblanc is a burst mage, like Veigar, but she has mobility... now tell me , if she has mobility , why does she have 365+1.1 ap ratio more than Veigar when he is inmobile? why is her Q and her Q mimic still targeteable? and why is her W instant? why does she even have like 1 whole more spell than Veigar -.-?

She might not be Leagues biggest problem but she is a problem nonetheless and there is barely any counterplay to leblancs kit, u might survive her combo but u will have to back away fast, cos her next spell comes back up in 6 sec (without cdr) and u cant dodge her Q and unless u saw it coming u can barely dodge her W IF(and only IF) u have mobility or flash up.

Jeddy017Mar 16, 201517 votes

It's a cycle my friend Nasus

ThefriendlyorcMar 17, 20153 votes

'The cycle of buffs and nerfs continues...'

Tis a nice dayMar 17, 20153 votes

'The cycle of whining and QQ continues...'

Photos of GhostsMar 17, 20152 votes

Not the same people. Leblanc has a silence, broken double engage + escape and huge burst? OP AS FUCK. Leblanc doesn't have silence anymore? Leblanc players cry loudly, I am happy (she's still broken but hey at least I can do SOMETHING, like flash or barrier or zhonya, and she's less popular) Leblac is popular again? Well crap. Ok, it's better than when she had silence, but damn. Can't even insta stun her with Veigar if she jumps on my face.

Seth LightheartMar 16, 201532 votes

Dude, silvers and bronzes cry over EVERYTHING.

S H A Y C 0Mar 16, 201511 votes

Im bronze, im happy with the cinderhulk item, i missed the ancient golem something fierce and im very glad to have it back. I am satisfied with all the jungle items now, i dont see any as overpower, some of them are exceptional on certain champs, but nothing outrageous. Vi does really well with the new tank item, also very powerful on her is the warrior enchantment, her passive armor shred with a little extra penetration is really strong. Cinderhulk for me brings sejuani into a really good place, she was viable as the CC queen of the jungle before, but now i can see her in the lcs

Seth LightheartMar 16, 20155 votes

No, you're right. Not EVERY bronze or silver constantly cries about the game. However, to be honestly, looking at the forums it's hard not to think that.

As for Senj.... I'm not even really a fan of her. I don't like how small her ult is and if it misses how borked you are. Personally I loved tanked jungles season 2 and 3, i'm glad to have them back.

S H A Y C 0Mar 16, 20152 votes

I can see your point...its a vat of complaints with whiney tears for dressing. You just need to practice her a little more. Ive had some outrageous tankjauni games, Katarina could literally do nothing when i was around, 2 interupts made sure she did 0 damage any time she showed up. Ive whiffed some ults, but she has plenty of cc left in the tank afterward to control a fight. My opinion, disagree all you want, ill still play her :)

Seth LightheartMar 16, 20151 votes

Oh no, I can stomp face with Senj, my mechanics are just fine. I just don't like her.

I much rather play Mao or Shaco.

S H A Y C 0Mar 16, 20157 votes

well there you have it folks, thats why there are 120+ champs :P we all have different styles and plenty of champs to show them off. I am personally on a "CC wins games" binge but i cant seem to jungle maokai and worst shaco NA, lol

FreljordanMar 16, 20151 votes

I would LOVE to see Sej in the lcs! that would make my day

jv21blU7oDMar 16, 20152 votes

She's been picked by Diamond in EU LCS even before Cinderhulk.

KaxiMar 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I would LOVE to see Sej in the lcs! that would make my day

Diamond for Gambit has played Sejuani a few times now in the EU LCS. Meteos for Cloud 9, I believe, also has played her once.

KylozMar 16, 20152 votes

You're the reason why hate threads are created.

S H A Y C 0Mar 16, 20154 votes

and youre the reason why hate thread are created for the people that create the hate threads...wait what? Damn im confused as balls right now...maybe more Sake will clear things up :P summoner 13

exiledFromBadmenMar 16, 201524 votes

^This. People never noticed Sejuani is OP before Cinderhulk.

GundayMondayMar 16, 201536 votes

Strong. Not OP. Strong. She's still VERY team reliant.

SeviangMar 16, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Strong. Not OP. Strong. She's still VERY team reliant.

She has a 58% win rate since 5.5 went out. I think she's probably gone from strong to OP now.

GundayMondayMar 16, 20157 votes

LOL.

Winrates =/= strength. I've seen so many shitty Sejs miss every ult but get carried by Kats (real OP champion at the moment with new AP item) or other good teammates. Winrates don't tell the full story.

SeviangMar 16, 201512 votes

{quoted}

LOL.

Winrates =/= strength. I've seen so many shitty Sejs miss every ult but get carried by Kats (real OP champion at the moment with new AP item) or other good teammates. Winrates don't tell the full story.

This is true in many cases, but once a win rates gets close to that 60% mark it's almost always a case of the champ being overpowered.

ShinjusukeMar 16, 20157 votes

Winrate =/= balance, to be sure, but Seviang does have a point: Historically, that's how the game has worked. 60% is usually when it starts being a strong indicator of a problem.

And then you've got Urgot :P

GundayMondayMar 17, 20151 votes

I could see that. But it's probably more that the playerbase isn't capitalizing on obvious weaknesses (weak early game, slow early clear, susceptible to counterjungling, strong windows of opportunity to pick team fights when ult is down, etc.). Hope Riot gives it a month or so for the playerbase to relearn how to play against her before the nerf bats come out.

ShinjusukeMar 18, 20151 votes

No, I think it's pretty clear Sejuani is too powerful. She was already bordlerline overpowered before cinderhulk, she just mostly stayed under the radar. Cinderhulk very plainly pushes her over the edge.

Granted, it pisses me off to no end that hey, the second she gets OP riot nerfs her while Lee Sin goes untouched for years while very obviously having no weaknesses as a jungler, but the point does still stand that she needs the nerf now. There's nothing to "relearn", her strengths that made her borderline-too-strong still are what make her borderline-too-strong, Cinderhulk just bumps up her flaws as well as complementing her strengths. Her "obvious weaknesses" aren't nearly as weak as her defenders would have everyone believe, as is the case with every jungler who is about to get nerfed, largely because the jungle functions vastly differently (particularly this season) than any of the lanes do. If she were primarily a laner, you might be right, but she is not primarily a laner.

Thus, the jump from "too strong" to "very, very, very probably overpowered". She's not an urgot-level uncommon pick, the problem isn't "well people just don't know how to play against her". PLENTY of people know how to "play against her". The whole "well nobody knows the champion well enough" is a desperate grasping-at-straws defense of a champion that has been wrong literally in 100% of cases.

You yourself brought up Twitch as being OP long before people noticed, and guess what Twitch players kept saying as soon as he got popular? The exact same thing. It's the last line of defense for adamant defenders of relatively underplayed (though, compared to Lee Sin's 35% play rate, every jungler is "relatively underplayed) champions, and it's literally always wrong.

GundayMondayMar 19, 20151 votes

Do me a favor.

Go 10-0-20 with Sejuani in a game. Then ask one member of your team to disconnect. See if you can still win. Do this 10 times and let me know how many wins you get.

Now do the same thing with any carry champion.

Let me know what the difference is and if you still think Sejuani is too strong.

GundayMondayMar 16, 20157 votes

What's your definition of overpowered? I think we're talking about two different things.

Overpowered to me means no counterplay, or the numbers behind the kit are too large.

This is not the case for current Sej. That's why I'm confused.

60% winrates are more a symptom of the playerbase not understanding how to counter a champion's playstyle too. There were plenty of champions sub 50% that were overpowered that the playerbased didn't even know about. Remember Twitch before nerfs? He was around for a year in that state and was definitely not at 60%.

WhiteGuyWannaBeMar 16, 20152 votes

IMO sej IS lacking in counterplay. Shitty sej's might miss their ults, but that is like saying Lee is the worst champ in league because noobs can't do shit with him.... and even if Sej misses her ult she can still slow the entire enemy team by 90% for the same duration, which is generally still enough to catch teams out and force fights. In addition to her ridiculous CC she has the highest damage of any true tank and once she gets close to full build or gets fed she can destroy any APC or ADC on her own, possibly both at the same time.

I say this as a player who's mained sej for the last year and a half, I love to play her and think she is an awesome champ, but that doesn't blind me to her lack of counterplay and all around OPness.

WolfChasesMar 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

IMO sej IS lacking in counterplay. Shitty sej's might miss their ults, but that is like saying Lee is the worst champ in league because noobs can't do shit with him.... and even if Sej misses her ult she can still slow the entire enemy team by 90% for the same duration, which is generally still enough to catch teams out and force fights. In addition to her ridiculous CC she has the highest damage of any true tank and once she gets close to full build or gets fed she can destroy any APC or ADC on her own, possibly both at the same time.

I say this as a player who's mained sej for the last year and a half, I love to play her and think she is an awesome champ, but that doesn't blind me to her lack of counterplay and all around OPness.

Sejuani Deals the highest damage among tanks?

Amumu Says HI!

Baron of BreadMar 16, 20152 votes

Let's say we have a lvl 18 Sej with ~5k hp (a reasonable amount at this time thanks to Cinderhulk; just takes Cinderhulk, Radnuin's, Banshee's and Warmog's with defense masteries). We will assume she has no AP or MPen, but that she has had time for Cinderhulk to ramp up, and that you are a squishy with 2k hp. How much AoE damage does she do in 4 seconds (the duration of Flail)?

(240) initial flail hit + (160 + 600) flail DoT + (180) permafrost + (204) Cinderhulk + (350) glacial prison = 1734 damage

Let's give her a 6 second cooldown on her Flail (a reasonable amount, just masteries and a bit of CDR in her build; her permafrost would also have a shorter cooldown than this) and two more second of hitting you.

(1734) the previous 4 seconds + (240) second flail + (190) the first second of flail DoT + (180) permafrost + (102) Cinderhulk = 2446 damage (all magic)

Remember how we assumed a squishy of 2k hp? Yeah, they died. Sure, with a GA they only take about half of that damage. But maybe Sej uses auto attacks or her Arctic Assault or builds a shred of damage (You can build an Iceborn and still get 5k hp)?

2446 + (570) auto attacks + (427) 3 iceborn procs + (260) arctic assault + (168) AP ratios = 3871 damage

After resists (80 mr, 130 armor): 1596 magic + 433 phys = 2029 damage.

Your 2k hp squishy has died (neglecting any healing they may have). Sejuani does enough damage to kill a squishy with a GA in 6 seconds with her only damage coming from Iceborn and Cinderhulk, and at the same time she does about 2/3rds of that damage to everyone else while having the squishy under hard cc for nearly 3 seconds.

Basically the numbers in Sej's kit are really high right now, letting her drop a ton of cc and damage while being nearly impossible to kill.

DeusVultMar 16, 201511 votes

All tanks are very team reliant

Amumu Chogath Malphite Nautilus Rammus Skarner Volibear were all strong even before cinderhulk, especially in the right hands, like people who play tanks and don't follow Fotm champs.

But even if they went 5/0/10 in the first 20 minutes, if their carries can't do what they are supposed to and deal damage while their tanks keep them alive and cc the enemy, the tank is going to lose.

junglerboy16Mar 16, 20156 votes

This^ People cry about tanks not lasting in team fights, but that only happens because their carries are usually too obtuse to realize that their big, beefy tank is defending them so that they can kill the other carries. When you tank a carry who isn't taking any damage from your team, you get melted, no matter how much health and resistances you have.

At first I hated tanks because I couldn't win by myself, but to be honest, they're just more fun and even if your team is completely stupid a well played tank can hold everything together and get your team a victory. Most of the time...

0GameDos0Mar 17, 20152 votes

Yeah man I hate whenever I go ham as a tank and my team doesnt follow up

NarasimhaMar 16, 201514 votes

Chances are, its not the same people. Everyone always assumes the Boards are always QQing about something or another, but its more of a revolving faction set if anything. Here's an example to try and clarify.

Group A - complains that tanks are too weak and needs buffs. Group B - thinks that tanks are fine and say nothing

Rito buffs tanks

Group A - has no more issues, and has nothing to say on the matter. Group B - thinks tanks are now too strong, and start to complain.

There will ALWAYS be someone upset about some issue. That's just human psychology.

Laughing FishMar 16, 201511 votes

Cinderhulk is the greatest item ever. I once reached 7,000 health with SIon.

junglerboy16Mar 16, 20151 votes

Not that crazy, any tank with a built in health gain mechanic (Cho'gath, Sion, and Singed in particular) can reach that easily.

FreljordanMar 16, 20153 votes

not with a viable build usually. Sion is pretty much the only one who can do that without sacrificing other stats that the champ needs such as armor/mr, cdr, etc. Maybe Cho could do it with 6 stacks and straight tank, but most people like bruiser or straight ap on cho right now

Chromatic EagleMar 16, 201511 votes

It's almost as if the forums aren't a hivemind.

OhOkYeaMar 16, 20158 votes

Most of the junglers that benefit from this have severe weaknesses that can be exploited. The few that don't, were already extremely powerful building whatever they wanted.