Apparently Lore Isn't Important Enough to Warrant Its Own Board, So I'll Post This Here

Impetual·Aug 6, 2014·50 votes·15,520 views

Riot, I (and I would imagine many members of the LoL community would as well) like some answers about the state of lore for League of Legends.

It's been quite awhile since we've had any developments in Runeterra. The champions within it are starting to seem stagnant.

In previous years, we would receive information through the Journal of Justice on the goings on in Runeterra and feel a connection to the world that the champions reside in.

Lately, this has not been the case.

It's seems like it has been years since any developments have happened in Runeterra. There was the Freljord patch, which retconned a few things, but didn't actually feel like it continued the story in any meaningful way.

Riot, I love your company and the game that it has created. Please don't mess it up by getting cheap with the lore of the world that it takes place in.

If Runeterra feels unimportant, then the champions within it will feel unimportant.

Riot Please! Put more focus on your lore of your world! And if you won't, at least tell us why!

139 Comments

MrMilkManiacAug 6, 201421 votes

I'll take a shot at this. For clarity though, I am not on the lore team. However, I am a huge lore geek. I, like many of you, love books/movies/games with massive, fully fleshed-out worlds (Kingkiller Chronicles anyone?). So obviously, when I joined Riot, one of the first things I did was to gobble up any lore-related information and understand what's going on with it.

Here's what I learned: Lore is by no means forgotten. I'd like to draw a comparison to the Summoner's Rift Update. Around winter a lot of players started asking why there was no winter-themed Summoner's Rift. Some players assumed Riot just didn't care about the map anymore. However, by now it should be apparent that we didn't ignore flavoring the map, but instead we had most of our environmental artists working on SRU, which in my mind is much more important than having a winter-themed map. In fact, I would argue that making a skin for an older map, and delaying a newer map to do so, would be a disservice to players.

Getting back to lore, I know that since Freljord, there's be almost nothing related to lore that has come out. I also realize that many players, such as yourself, have determined that we are starting to "get cheap" with our lore and our world, and given the visibility you have, that's an understandable conclusion. But let me pose a different theory. What if the Lore is like the current summoner's Rift: It's functional and has some really cool features, but it also has some glaring bugs and is by no means as pretty or as flushed out as it could be? What if the reason why there are no Journals of Justice or any lore updates of any kind are because everyone related to lore is working on stuff that takes priority?

How cool would that be ;)

Garlyle WildsAug 6, 201420 votes

Honestly, such a thing's been hinted at for a while; even before the Freljord event there's been hints dropped by Rioters in various fashions that there IS something big in the works lore-wise. The JoJ was apparently discontinued because they wanted to find way better ways to tell the story of the League of Legends, and we know that Riot can't really start saying or teasing anything major until it's ready (if magma chamber dancing in and out of existence is anything to have learned from, both for rioters and players)

It's just that, in the meantime - and it has been a LONG meantime - we're not really seeing much of anything, I guess. Not even smaller lore events celebrating different regions or anything. Those who've been lore starved are pretty starved at this point, I think. That there's this "big thing" coming, that Rioters often say they've got tons of stuff in their head they're "not ready to talk about yet", it feels like you're sort of just... sitting on the outside of something you want in on, you know?

If there is something huge coming up, I hope that it turns out worth the wait, because it's been a long wait. That's all.

thunderingiceAug 6, 201411 votes

Honestly, such a thing's been hinted at for a while; even before the Freljord event there's been hints dropped by Rioters in various fashions that there IS something big in the works lore-wise. The JoJ was apparently discontinued because they wanted to find way better ways to tell the story of the League of Legends, and we know that Riot can't really start saying or teasing anything major until it's ready (if magma chamber dancing in and out of existence is anything to have learned from, both for rioters and players)

It's just that, in the meantime - and it has been a LONG meantime - we're not really seeing much of anything, I guess. Not even smaller lore events celebrating different regions or anything. Those who've been lore starved are pretty starved at this point, I think. That there's this "big thing" coming, that Rioters often say they've got tons of stuff in their head they're "not ready to talk about yet", it feels like you're sort of just... sitting on the outside of something you want in on, you know?

If there is something huge coming up, I hope that it turns out worth the wait, because it's been a long wait. That's all.

I have to agree. It has been like two years (rough estimate). I have missed lore.

thesiAug 6, 20146 votes

This makes me happy. I started reading the Journals of Justice a few months back and was sad to see them end. I would love to see more about this world and some of the reasoning for rivalries and friendships fleshed out. Thanks for this bit of news. I hope the soon™ is sooner rather than later. :P

NVDaxAug 6, 20149 votes

Ah so soon(TM)? The answer we've been getting for god knows how long? No JoJ, no judgements, pretty much no nothing... Forgive me if I withhold my enthusiasm,

TerraRisingAug 6, 20148 votes

If I had any confidence in the lore team at Riot, that would be something too look forward to.

Unfortunately, the way Kitae and her team shoved the Shadow Isles and Freljord lore changes down our throats, I have no confidence that the Lore team is capable of something as epic in comparison to the Summoner's Rift VU.

For example, I don't believe the Journals of Justice, the League Judgements or the Weekly Sales Stories were stopped for higher priorities. I believe they were stopped simply because no one on the teams wanted to write them anymore.

I'm likely wrong, but I have no other conclusion to draw from as there's no big Lore discussion section of this new board and the lore team rarely ventures onto the old Lore section.

FaerKhanAug 6, 20148 votes

I agree with you 100%. Kitae was one of the worst hiring decisions Riot ever made. All she's done so far is retconn things and give us minor things that don't make any sense. The Freljord event was even halfassed and a dead end lore wise (one faction won but it didn't change anything about the story).

I agree with you that I don't believe the JOJ or any of the other Lore pieces were discontinued for work on other things. That's completely impossible because they simply haven't released anything substantive that is new, and most of what they have done is simply re writing other people's work.

Kitae is a disgrace, and she hasn't dared show her face since the Freljord retconn incident. She deserves all the hate she gets from people who actually appreciate lore. In fact, Lore was the reason I chose LoL over Dota originally, and now I'm annoyed that it's gone.

ImpetualAug 7, 20147 votes

I can't say I can think of anything I blame her for directly.... but I will say that the JoJ was probably the best Lore related thing that Riot ever did with LoL.

Why they cancelled it and decapitated the lore aspect of their game I'll never know....

FaerKhanAug 8, 20145 votes

It didn't even make sense at the time. Frankly, I care about League a lot less than I did back then purely because the JoJ is gone. I thought hey, this game is cool, there are actually stories and reasons for the champions to be fighting!

To be honest, I don't think it's possible to actually have decent lore without some sort of narrative piece like the JoJ. However, since Riot says that's never coming back, it's probably pretty hopeless.

Like I said somewhere else in this thread (damn reddit style), my current theory is that the Lore department doesn't exist anymore. I mean really, if you look at the last few champions that have been released (Gnar being the worst of them all btw), they really don't have much of substance in their story. Velkoz is just here studying stuff (why nobody knows), Yasuo is a generic runaway who supposedly killed an Ionian elder (who could have been connected to Karma in some way, but no mention of that anywhere) (oh, and the only person who could have killed the elder if not Yasuo is Riven , but Rito won't say anything official about that either. Heck, maybe that's why Riven left Noxus in the first place?), and now Gnar who basically has no story at all. Oh yay, a prehistoric yordle (another retconn?) that doesn't even know what the world is like now. Great. Why would he be in the League then? He was around before civilization happened, why would he care about the League or the political implications of the League battles? (oh wait, they're probably going to retconn the League itself too...)

See why this isn't getting anywhere? It's like Riot is intentionally destroying everything good about their own story.

ImpetualAug 7, 20145 votes

You may be right...which would be kinda sad.

To most League Players I've interacted with, the Journal of Justice was one of the best ways that Riot has ever implemented lore into the world of Runeterra, while the recent updates like the Freljord patch and the shadow Isles patch (which I played for the icons, but barely remember much like the freljord patch) seem very ineffectual.

It's been years since lore Riot's lore has seemed to matter...as a matter of coincidence, I don't think Runeterra's lore really seemed to matte to me since the last JoJ installment. What could this mean? Riot only knows. (lol)

CupcakeTrapAug 6, 201415 votes

I'll say what I said elsewhere — this sounds pretty cool, but on behalf of Factions (a game mode built around Noxus vs. Ionia-style matches) I have a request.

I'd like to ask that the Lore department not go too crazy and chainsaw everything. I think that the in-universe League of Legends, and the concept of Summoners, is actually a really clever way to give players a place in the story.

I really don't want to see it go "Heroes of the Storm" and just be "so uh there's no plot here but maybe if theoretically these people ended up fighting I guess it would look like this".

AbiwonKenabiAug 6, 20148 votes

I thought I smelled a baked good in this thread. :3

I totally agree, one of the cool things about the way League's lore is set up is that it directly involves the player, it gives it that role play element that makes you a part of the story. A small part maybe, but a part nonetheless.

CupcakeTrapAug 7, 20147 votes

I just really like the idea that my random solo queue game just allowed some Bilgewater pirate to escape Piltovian captivity or whatever. And that in-universe Garen and Syndra and company know what Ignite is, and can probably have conversations in which they mention last night's match where Ziggs got a Pentakill. It's a fun concept to think that in a sense the characters are playing the same "game" we are.

Gentleman GastonAug 6, 201411 votes

The issue with this really is the lack of transparency. Even with sweeping game changes we're told way in advance what's going on in Riot's mind and what direction they're looking to go in. Meanwhile, Riot's been extremely hush-hush with anything related to lore for years and, as such, has given the strong impression that they don't care even though this is obviously not the case.

We've seen glimpses with the change in the way lore is being delivered (heavier emphasis on characterization and promotional material than a straight up biography), but these aren't frequent as champion releases have become spread much farther apart. And, regardless, a lot of people are looking to see stories unattached to character introductions anyway, so that doesn't really solve any problems.

Most people, I think, just want to hear what Riot is thinking about narrative direction. They're okay on waiting, but they want to know that there is in fact a light at the end of the tunnel, even if what that light is is subject to change.

MrMilkManiacAug 6, 201411 votes

Well Said!

A lot of the reason why we're so "Hush Hush" is that we have so much going on at once, and the last thing we want to do is to tell you about a work in progress, only to have it get cancelled or changed, and then crush your expectations (because... lets face it... we've done that in the past). It may be a slow journey, but there is most definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.

NVDaxAug 6, 201415 votes

leaving us with nothing isn't the answer either sir. Especially when we get quotes from the lore team that it's overrated. As an inspiring writer myself, this is a subject that kinda near and dear to my heart. The lack of resolve, the lack of clarity, the lack of overall ANYTHING to the story. What happened to the conspiracy behind the league starting the whole incident in the first place, Swain's ascension to Grand General, the disappearance of Talon's mentor/Kat's father. We had this huge build-up for the Shadow Isles/Freljord event and then... Nothing, nothing at all. Only excuse is if there was being an entire retcon or something of that sort. Even then it wouldn't be happy cause it would just end with us PRETENDING that all these other events never happened.

NazzadanAug 6, 201411 votes

There hasn't been a champion with a legitimate reason to join the League since I think Draven and Darius as Swain's subordinates. Everyone since then is just for some reason magically in this battleground that is supposed to be for settling political disputes. Like if you guys are going to just throw the lore out the window how about you say so, announce that league is now an arena style game with no story and its all gameplay.
I recall a time Nasus, Heimerdinger and a few other characters lore was changed, and it was literally copy pasted fanfiction from some fan website that Riot posted in client as the official lore, so come on man don't lie to us. Either say "lore is dead, enjoy the game for the gameplay" or give us something to work with.

Sneak DogAug 6, 20149 votes

Personally, Trundle left a really bad impression on me, I loved his lore and his character and it just got replaced by a generic brute. This was the last piece of lore I've seen safe from backgrounds and even though you admitted Trundles rework was a mistake, you didn't address it. You didn't go back and said, yeah, we should've kept his character the same but put him in a different situation. I'm sure you might think that it'll all be fine if you bring me enough new awesome stuff, but I think this will leave a stain if it's left untended (or the stain will grow if you continue with this brute that lies if smacking it didn't work out).

This experience has led me to just think bad of your lore department. This also makes me very anxious about thinking you guys working on a lot of stuff without having a clue what it is. I would really like to love the lore, I read all the JoJ and liked them, but the last impression you've made on me was removing my favorite character in an event that was all build-up, no climax.

I might of course be alone in this trail of thought, but what I'd like to see if just a little proof of competence, something that tells me you guys both care about the previous lore and are capable of making good lore yourselves. All I have so far are a couple of posts with empty promises and a Freljord event to look back upon.

IcySlayerAug 6, 201412 votes

Isn't that the same thing you guys told us YEARS ago I mean really nothing has changed not even your excuse. You guys did say this years ago and you say it everytime someone calls you out on it.

The best story never told is the worst story ever written.(You may have the best story ever but if people can't get your story whats the point?)

PhailRaptorAug 7, 201413 votes

(You may have the best story ever but if people can't get your story whats the point?)

This right here is the thing that has been burning away inside my skull since the League Judgements were cancelled. It's incredibly clear that there IS something going on deep in the bowels of the Lore department. You catch little glimpses of it every now and then. Like how Vel'Koz isn't hellbent on the conquering of Runeterra, contrary to every other Void creature ever. Or how, in ye olde days of LoL Lore, there was the implication that Yordles were from a different planet all together (that, with the release of Gnar, seems to no longer be true). Even the not-quite-official Cait x Vi shipping.

But that's all they are -- glimpses It feels like I'm being forced to identify the picture used for a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle, but I'm only allowed to look at 10 random pieces from random locations throughout the puzzle. It's impossible, and honestly downright infuriating.

Then, to make matters worse, there's the little random tidbits of information that only come from random Riot posts and have no grounding anywhere in any story anywhere. Like the fact that Lissandra is blind, and because she is blind, she did not kill Quinn in the Ice Witch reveal teaser. She flat out could not see her. But this was not explained at all in the teaser. It was dropped in a random comment by Kitae several months later.

@Riot MilkManiac -- forgive me if this comes off as ungrateful, but we've heard that line before. We heard that line when the League Judgements were "suspended indefinitely". We heard that line when the Journal of Justice was discontinued. We heard that line when the Champion Bios became less and less descriptive. And now, after hearing that same excuse time and time again for years, you're telling us to be content when we hear it again.

Granted, I shouldn't be coming down on you for this, if it's not your field. But the fact is we have no way to target our anger and frustration at the people who should be feeling it. And I only just found out a couple hours ago that, apparently, that person(s) no longer include Kitae, whom we all thought was the one "in charge" of LoL's Lore, and as such, all the blame for the complete lack of development.

TerraRisingAug 6, 201417 votes

Allow me a rebuttal...

A lot of the reason why we're so "Hush Hush" is that we have so much going on at once, and the last thing we want to do is to tell you about a work in progress, only to have it get cancelled or changed, and then crush your expectations (because... lets face it... we've done that in the past).

Unfortunately, this frequently used excuse form Riot doesn't apply to the Lore department.

Historically, concerning Lore changes, it's not a "build hype about a potential change, then have the hype dashed when it's canceled." It's more of a "Here's what we're doing and if you don't like it, then you can sit on a banana and deal with it" sort of feeling.

For example: In the JoJ, Gragas had a great reason for helping the Avarosan faction: Business. His "Graggy Ice" brewery was in the Avarosan Plains, and helping Ashe helps his business thrive, which benefits all involved. Instead, we got some half-baked story involving Gragas getting into bar brawl between two tribes, then getting them all drunk so Ashe could get a peace agreement.

Same goes for Udyr, Olaf, Tryndamere, Trundle (oh god, what the Lore team did to Trundle), Ashe, Anivia... all of this could have been done a lot better, more smoothly and without as much damage. Instead, most of the changes were done without discussion or explanation.

Even the Shadow Isles event caused more problems than not (including where Evelynn's place and role since there was zero mention of her in that event) and how they bungled Maokai's lore with the Twisted Treeline changes until a rather pathetic ret-con could be released.

Then, there's Singed. His personal and official lore is still tied to Warwick and Soraka. This, in spite of the fact that the other two champs had their lores significantly altered thanks to last October's Soraka VU.

If there's a "work in progress" on fixing these and SO MANY OTHER LORE PROBLEMS, it would be nice to see some proof of it. Until then, I can't believe any Rioter who says "we're working on it... seriously."

It may be a slow journey, but there is most definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.

Forgive me if I don't hold my breath. The silence from the Lore department, if it continues to exist at all, speaks volumes about the supposed commitment to the fans.

RiotOldManYellingAug 8, 20143 votes

I know it's not the same thing, but we do have a strong fan fiction community, here on the boards and elsewhere on the interwebs. And, if it helps at all, I'd point you to my own fan fic (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/fancreations/80tNf8re-fan-fiction-shadows-and-sunlight-omnibus-a) as an example of writing I don't think is all that bad, and if you like it at all, it might provide a reference for how much you enjoy what the badass team in charge of the real stuff makes.

StarlighteAug 8, 201415 votes

Honestly Libris, I think you're missing the point here. And not just here, but the overarching opinion and theme of people highly interested in lore.

For years now, we have been given cool little nifty things like the comics for Braum and Udyr. The Jinx MV, and the Freljord/Shadow Isles events. These are all great, but they are provided, seemingly, as an alternative to lore, better interconnecting stories, plot, and actual champion backgrounds. Out of the last 10 champions that have been released, barely half of them can be argued to have a legitimate reason for joining the League.

The overarching lack of direction in lore is frustrating. We want Riot to be at a higher standard, and we want to hold you folks at the lore team to that higher standard. I believe Kitae herself mentioned that we should continue to call bullshit where we see it in regards to the direction the lore team is headed.

I appreciate the fact that you are here, and communicating. Directing us to fanfics, quite honestly, is not only frustrating, but it appears as if you're saying "We hammered the last nail into the coffin on lore awhile ago. Fanfics are the best you'll get."

And this may not be what you're trying to convey, but you and every other Rioter who has spoken about lore and lore development and plans for future outlets for delivering lore to the players, have been NOTHING but discouraging.

Many in this thread alone have pointed out that there is a belief that the Lore Department doesn't even exist anymore. Doesn't that strike you as... problematic? As a writer don't you want to disprove that conspiracy?

The comments are right. Saying that silence is better than getting our hopes up is crap. It is shit in the worst way, and players deserve to know that you are being held to the high standards that we have come to expect out of Riot as a company.

If you can't take off the gag-order, find somebody who can. Beg them on your hands and knees to allow the Lore Department to talk to the community about what they have in plan. At the very least, talk about HOW you are planning on delivering lore to the community. Because again and again we are told JoJ is NEVER coming back. It wasn't good enough of an outlet. When asked what outlet the team was developing, the response universally was "When we know what outlet is right, we will tell you." And now, 3 years later, we still haven't heard of a single outlet.

This entire post may seem like I am bashing you Libris, but let me assure you I am not. I WANT to believe you and the Lore Team have something up your sleeve. But without you tipping your hand, and putting some faith in the community, the community cannot give you the faith you are asking for. (Minor edit for a typo or two I found.)

RiotOldManYellingAug 8, 20146 votes

This was a really intense post, and I appreciate that you know I'm not really someone who can respond to your really big questions with my awfully small answers. But I also appreciate the sincerity of your post, because it made me flash back to when I first met Harrow and Runaan the first time. The way I felt about the lore. I still feel that way. League is an amazing world, and I wish you and the others in this thread weren't so quick to dismiss letting your imagination explore Runeterra with your own words...

But I get it, I probably shouldn't have said anything at all. Fanfic is just fanfic in the end.

Still, I also wish you wouldn't minimize the faith the team does have in the community. They've tried some really experimental stuff over the last few years while searching for the best vehicle, as you mention. The music video, the Braum animation, Lucian's animatic. The Spirit Guard Udyr comic. Any other community could have thought those were too weird, or rejected alternative ways of storytelling like in-game interactions and secret taunts. But you didn't. You still don't. You keep telling us you want more.

And I'm not on the lore team, but Opeli is, and I think she said it better than I ever could over in the Gnar Q&A:

I am so exposed to every other part of League, and those areas receive a lot of attention because they are more easily received and appreciated (art, gameplay, esports, things like that), that it's always refreshing when I see passionate players like all of you coming into this thread eager to hear about a champion I worked on. And to want to know more all the time. It's a GREAT FEELING. I LOVE IT.

I (and our Narrative team) have always known people care, but it's nice to see it in a positive light. In these Q&As it's "omg tell me more! I love the lore!" and not "god, Rito is full of lazy shits who just sit around and twiddle their thumbs." So, that's what I mean by "surprised." It's more like, I'm prepared for the worst, but then I get all of these wonderful, happy people hungry for more.

But I'm certainly not going to make excuses why we haven't given you more story things; that shit is a waste of your time.

ImpetualAug 8, 20149 votes

I appreciate your honesty, RiotExLibris.

But here's the thing: Riot has shown us that they can do things better. Look at the JoJ. It was an awesome way to introduce lore to players on a biweekly basis.

Riot has shown they can do something like this while maintaining a high quality of content.

As a company, it seems that Riot has decided to tell lore a different way, and I've got no problems with you guys trying to do so...however, it has been years, and Riot's Lore department still hasn't been preforming to the levels that it was initially. In other words....Your new attempts to introduce lore in creative ways has proven to be less impactful than what you were doing before.

If you cannot tell us why Riot seems intent on producing worse lore than they have in the past, can you get a Rioter on here who can?

Btw, I don't wanna judge someone I've never met, but based on the quote you took from Opeli, he/she sounds like someone who doesn't receive criticism well... If you just look only at your positive critiques you're missing out on an opportunity to improve your work. Your negative critiques will often have the most value to add. (usually)

RiotOldManYellingAug 8, 20145 votes

So, while I am not equipped to talk about lore or narrative specifically, as a writer I can definitely speak to storytelling and writing more broadly, and this post particularly makes me feel as though I understand your perspective better.

It seems to me as though what we are all getting at in this thread is that we want more stories told through words. Big, sweeping novel-style words, too, that aren't just about Jericho and Evaine (or Emelia, whatever name she's using) but about Noxus and the Black Rose. Runeterra, as you said.

That is the kind of feedback I can pass on and I appreciate the clarity.

I want to bring up something though, because as a writer I struggle with this apparent trend pretty much every day. What do you (and anyone else on this thread) make of the fact that Guardians of the Galaxy, the film, attracts an audience of 11.5 million people to the tune of $94 million bucks in the first weekend, where the book the film is based on (a comic, admittedly) can barely scrape together 55,000 fans and under $250,000 in a whole month? (Numbers from Box Office rankings and industry sales figures for June)

To me, one of the ways that I interpret the phenomenon of Marvel U films in comparison to the life I've spent reading comics in shops stacked with boxes and poly-sleeves, is that some types of story-telling just reach wider audiences than others.

And please, please keep in mind that I'm not saying we shouldn't do words because more people like music videos, because there needs to be a way to serve all audiences. I'm just bringing it up because I'd love your perspectives.

Lastly, just like I don't think it's fair to underserve an audience that wants bigger stories to cater to those who prefer deeper dives into champion lore specifically, it also isn't fair to say we should ignore the players who do enjoy the more experimental stuff.

Essentially, I feel that the statement "producing worse lore than the past" would be more effective if you phrased it as your opinion instead of trying to objectively make the claim speaking for all League players.

DaenAug 8, 201419 votes

we want more stories told through words.

We want more stories told. Period.

I understand what you're saying with the variety of content, however this assumes that comprehensive narrative is being shown to the community. As far as I'm aware, there are even inconsistencies between the specific lore for each champion.

If the community is literally contemplating the existence of the Lore department, I think it's safe to assume a ball is being dropped.

StarlighteAug 8, 20148 votes

I'm glad you're still wading through this, and our passion hasn't chased you away.

With that said, I think a sentiment the community can all agree on here, which has been brought up multiple times, is frequency of lore-related releases.

Guardians of the Galaxy, using your example, was confirmed to be in "active development at the 2012 San Diego Comic-Con International". So, GotG was in production for 2 years.

Some points I would like to make. The numbers in comparison, of a serialized comic book added up over a 2 year period, although it still comes nowhere close to GotG's box office numbers, it still is not something to thumb your nose at and I think your representation of it was misleading.

The idea of serialized, or at least content released on a certain date, at a certain time, every X weeks, is something we are all chomping at the bit for. In S2, Riot used to release a champion every 2 weeks, barring unforseen hiccups. They had consistency. JoJ, had consistency. Currently, we have no consistency from the Lore Department. While GotG was in production, the serialized comic didn't stop. So why is it that Riot as a company can't mimic this business model in a sense.

I know, I know! The movie and the comic book are done by two entirely different branches of the company who are for the most part, unrelated. But the fact remains that Marvel doesn't just put the comic on hold while they make the movie.

So some questions that you could possibly answer, and I/We get that you are not on the Lore Team (thanks for clearing that up by the way.) and we get that you do not speak for them. But perhaps you could try your best to explain the counterarguments to some of these questions.

Why can't we have consistent Lore releases?

Why can't we go back to a text-based lore release?

Are text-only lore releases bad?

Is the Lore Department a sub-department? (meaning, are the members actually headed under entirely different departments normally?)

Do YOU, Libris, personally feel (disclaimer: This is a personal opinion and does not represent the opinion of Riot, kinda thing) that the Lore releases in the past 2 years are adequate?

Stick with it Libris, we wouldn't be so hard on you, and other visible members of Riot willing to talk about lore, if we were not amongst your most passionate and avid supporters.

RiotOldManYellingAug 8, 20146 votes

EDIT: I wanted to answer my personal opinion around the releases in the last two years as well, and I forgot to come back to it earlier. Here's my list of what I consider lore hits: SGU comic, "Get Jinxed", "Lucian Log-in", Snowdown poems (these aren't canon lore, but I'm including them because I'm biased, and I'll shamelessly admit that), "Vi's Song", "Trials of the Poro", "Lissandra's Voiceover (Howling Abyss)", "Twisted Treeline Altars", "Shadow Isles (Harrowing 2012)", "The Sewer Men" (here, if you missed it: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/champion-update-new-breed-plague-rat), "Braum's Voiceover", "Jinx's Voiceover" ("I don't even think once about blowing things up," anyone?), really, all of the champion VO since Vi has been really evocative, to me, of the world of Runeterra, "Twist of Fate", "A New Dawn", "Thresh's Song" (cling clang, oh the chains...)

I'm probably forgetting some, too. Personally though, I'll add that I'd still also like a novel. My fan fic is already 10k words long, I'm pretty sure by this point I'm just trying to write my own. (I'm 99% joking)

END EDIT

Before I try and respond any further, I just want to point out that you guys have all been really understanding of me and my position, and that's awesome, because this conversation is important to me.

So, consistent lore releases, text-based lore, and the value of them:

Aiming for consistency in storytelling should be the goal for anyone trying to weave characters and plots into cohesive narratives, and that includes the cadence at which you release things (look how pissed off everyone is at George RR Martin).

I don't think there is a good argument for not having reasonably consistent releases, so I won't bother trying to bullshit my way through one. As for returning to text-based releases, that one is a bit trickier. Due to the need for translation, I believe text-based lore would have to be time-agnostic (as in, it doesn't matter when it comes out, because it features a story that isn't related to real-world time).

Let's use a real example from the community: Factions events (http://leaguefactions.net/). Seems easy enough to play the campaign, collect the results, and write a story explaining what happened, but even for an English-language only audience, it can take a month or more to get some pretty darn good writing up. (I do understand that we're professionals, and this is a fan-created experience, but they do awesome work over there, and it deserves to be called out as exceptional--and all writers take different amounts of time to do their writing, again, see GRRM)

The point of this aside is that translation is hard, and it becomes only more difficult the more frequent content appears or the longer it is. So you probably wouldn't want to rely on text only for something that is time-sensitive.

That being said, I will fight anybody who says that text-only is bad. Not even Charlton Heston could pry my library of books (made of actual, real paper) from my warm, alive hands.

Keikomatsui Aug 8, 20146 votes

We love you Libris, really. The Lore fans of this game get so little sometimes, that when we finally do get a red in our midst we tend to throw all our passion and woes at them. Seriously, thank you so much for taking what time you are to try to understand our grievances and give us what little you can. You're renewing my hope, just a little bit, that maybe we will one day achieve some serious progress here.

Sometimes the Lore community feels like we're just being ignored by Riot, and it can really hurt. We love this game just as much as anyone else, often times even more so. So when we, such a passionate fan base, feel like we're being shunted aside and told our opinions on the lore don't matter it can really shake our confidence in Riot. Thank you for restoring at least mine, if only a little.

TerraRisingAug 8, 20145 votes

With all the sincerity I can show on the internet, I'm glad you've stuck around longer than a one sentence post. While I've yet to hear from Opeli on the other thread I made about Lore team, at least someone at Riot is willing to have a conversation.

There is one thing I do need to address in this last statement, though.

I don't think there is a good argument for not having reasonably consistent releases, so I won't bother trying to bullshit my way through one. As for returning to text-based releases, that one is a bit trickier. Due to the need for translation, I believe text-based lore would have to be time-agnostic (as in, it doesn't matter when it comes out, because it features a story that isn't related to real-world time).

Riot Games is a multi-national company with offices and employees throughout the civilized world (and France and Australia). Perhaps the lore team could work with their international counterparts in translating things as they get approved, only releasing them in a timely manner when most are on the same page, as it were.

If not, Google Translate could provide a start while localization teams could quickly transform the text into a more local syntax.

The French and Aussies can just figure it out for themselves.

That being said, I will fight anybody who says that text-only is bad. Not even Charlton Heston could pry my library of books (made of actual, real paper) from my warm, alive hands.

"YOU MANIACS! YOU BLEW IT UP! OH, DAMN YOU! GODDAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!"

StarlighteAug 8, 20147 votes

Fair points and well-spoken.

The comparison of GRRM is an itty bit off though when you compare how many thousands of words are in a book that he takes 5+ years to write, and compare that to a serialized, and significantly less worded conduit such as JoJ. As some people have pointed out, JoJ wasn't perfect. The third person perspective was, for lack of a better way to put it, a lackluster perspective to deliver lore with. It wasn't meant for everyone, and the JoJ was ignored by plenty of people who just wanted to play a MOBA.

I think your point of translation, is something that not a lot of us on NA think about. We have been so spoiled for so long, we have been catered to and had our hands held with LoL. Granted, Riot came out of NA, and NA really put it on the scene. So it would make sense that we get special treatment at times.

The number of languages that LoL lore would need to be translated into is indeed daunting. I could only imagine how long it would take to get translations from every region, and release them accordingly. Though, allow me to ask. Do you know if things such as the SGU comic was released in every supported language? And if it wasn't, how many languages was it released in? Is Riot saying that if they can't translate it to every language they support, then they wont bother doing it?

Tough questions, and not all of them I expect you to be able to answer. But, you would know better than me considering your position at Riot as a writer, but do you really think that it would be improbable to set a reasonable cadence (every few weeks) of releasing something the length of a typical JoJ article, in multiple languages? You might or might not have experience in that sort of time-frame, but perhaps you should give it a go? Time yourself on releasing a fan-made fictional sample of lore, and test how long it would take you personally to produce it. And then find out from the teams who translated the SGU comic (if it actually was translated) how long that process took.

Riot's policy has changed over the years in regards to other regions and supporting their game, and that is great. It is great to hear Riot say that they want the NA experience (barring ping on the east coast) to be the typical experience across the globe for LoL. Whether that means Lyte's team implementing the Tribunal across other regions, or the translation of character's bio and abilities into foreign languages.

Sometimes it is hard to see how much more work Riot has to do behind the scenes, just to get an English release of lore. Because it isn't just an English release, it is a simultaneous (or near simultaneous) release of lore in English, and several other languages across multiple regions.

I think, Libris, perhaps you could find some time out of your busy schedule, or get time approved out of your busy schedule, to experiment with the community and not only to help us realize how long the process takes, but to help convey and discuss our opinions and desires for LoL lore.

Honestly, though it is warming to have you interact with us, and trust me I appreciate you coming here and talking shop with us, I find it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth that nobody from the Lore Department wants to show up and, at the very least, tell us off and tell us how wrong we are. Passion hurts when it seems unrequited by the ones you want to hear from.

But please, don't let this deter you from staying and talking shop, the fact that you've already given insight into the fact that lore needs to be translated and released almost simultaneously is already something that I hadn't thought about. Though you may not be from the Lore Department, who knows, maybe our passion will reach you, and through you them.

2nd FiddleAug 9, 20145 votes

I would argue that the most frustrating part of league's lore isn't the low frequency at which it's released.

I think the most frustrating part of lore is that the lore that gets released keeps implying more lore that never gets released(What's a darkin?).

What I'm trying to say is that I'm afraid League is going to be less GRRM and more Chris Carter(WARNING: Link contains TVTropes)

Keikomatsui Aug 8, 20147 votes

Other people have said it, and I shall humbly add my voice. What made the JoJ the best (in my opinion) was they were consistent and interesting lore that spanned across Runeterra and were something we could look forward too.

I remember my excitement for the JoJ thinking "Wow that last issue was really intense. Swain and Jarvan are getting into a seriously heated conflict. I can't wait for the next one!" And I knew when that next one was. It created eager anticipation. There was excitement, there was story, there was diversity. It reached beyond a single champion, a single narrative, and combined champions' ambitions, personality, backstory, fears, and the whole lot into a widespread world that we felt was coming to some kind of shape.

And then it was gone. And now we get the sparing and inconclusive things like the Frejlord Event which, despite being really cool, had 0 impact on the actual lore. "Whee...someone won. Now what." I loved where the Lore team went with it background wise. Avarosa and Lissandra were a great narrative that could have had so much MORE to it. But it was, like all lore today, cut off at the head in the name of blind "imagine it yourself"-like arguments. Thats not what we want.

The lore team, it feels to me, keeps trying to tell us lore junkies what we want. "Oh you guys don't want a plot, you want to figure it out yourselves you just don't know it yet." Please give me more credit then that. I know what I want. There's a reason that "cannon" is pretty much always considered infinity more interesting then "non-canon".

How would you have liked it if J.K.Rowling had just stopped at "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" and just said to everyone. "Thats it guys. You can just imagine everything else that happens for the rest of the story." THAT is what it feels like to many of us lore nerds. And it hurts. A lot. League had such a great and expansive world with so much potential, and it was just beheaded in the sake of "progress and a new style of storytelling". A style we have barely seen since.

Now ExLibris. I REALLY appriciate what you did here. Diving head first into what is one of the most aggressive and passionate sectors of League's community isnt an easy thing. And I give you props for it. Thank you, honestly, for trying. But you aren't on the lore team. And I appreciate your perspective and answers, but you can't give us the answers we seek. We want story. Not even the JoJ style, just more story. Give us consistency and an expanding world with finite conclusions to plot. Give us the hopes and dreams of Runeterra's huddled masses. Give us Piltover's woes, the ongoing fight between Vi/Cait and Jinx and how it is tearing the once peaceful city state apart. Give us the ever-increasing horizon of imminent war between Noxus and Demacia. Give us things like the Ionia'n freedom event, where an actual match decided the fate of the Ionian peoples. Give us Bandle City, and how its utopia of pint sized hero's is fighting to make itself relevant in a world of dangerous threats and powerful beings.

Give us story, and we will give you our faith.

/rantover

innervationAug 8, 20147 votes

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/how-guardians-of-the-galaxy-cherry-bombed-the-box-office-and-made-off-with-all-of-our-money/

Is a pretty darn good write up of why GotG did so remarkably well at the global and domestic box office - you should read it over lunch some day.

Second, it's super apples-to-oranges to bother breaking down why GotG the cinema makes more than it's comic, and pit both of those things relative to League Lore. They're two entirely different systems. I will give this comparison though:

Imagine all of the loose ends possible in Guardians of the Galaxy. We could dive into each character's backstory in it's own volume, or movie. We could leave a few villains left unaccounted for that the heroes end up dealing with later on in their travels. Etc Etc.

Each character in league is an ecosystem unto itself. Every LoL character has those loose ends, so take the GotG loose ends times 120, and you'll see why people say, like Daen just said 4 hours ago, "We want more stories told. Period."

I am someone who doesn't list lore and story as a primary motivator for the games I play, but consider this: I have read every champion bio this past week (it's a long story why and I only did it for a...project). Sometimes, after researching a champion (my research involved evaluating their skins and reading their biography fully - and again, my research project was in no way related to gaming in the LoL client, or League lore for the sake of narrative), I really really wanted to play that champion. And other times I didn't. Now there could be all sorts of reasons for that, but I would guess that the best bio narratives and champions with a compelling reason for joining the League were highly correlated with which bios made me really want to just log in for a game and play that champion.

It's certainly not scientific...but I hear you have a couple phD's on staff that might know a thing or two about psych experiments... :P

HellioningAug 8, 20146 votes

That's not my problem. My problem is that lore only appears to exist when you're trying to sell us something. I think the last lore event that wasn't related to a champ or skin release was the Freljord event and that didn't do anything. Even the few bits of lore that have shown up are entirely focused upon the champ/skin; while other characters might show up, it's only in a way that shows the champ to be sold.

So make it a music video, make it a comment, make it entirely via in game interactions, whatever, just give me something that isn't advertising.

WhitakkerAug 8, 20146 votes

To be honest, ExLibris, the people on the beta boards are, by my observation, far more level-headed than the forums.

The greatest indicator that people care about something is how much they criticize it. You don't chastise and correct something/someone you are indifferent towards. If you see all this clamoring by the players, it should be a giant red flag telling you and your team that this topic is worth your time, along with ALL the Rioters who make up the Lore team.

TerraRisingAug 8, 201412 votes

All due respect, sir, Riot has a strong fan art community as well. However, League fan art, no matter how good, isn't "official," is it?

Fan fictions are not canon. I can make up just about anything I want in a fanfic, from a failed Nidalee/Rengar romance that led to their "rivalry" to a blossoming romance between Zyra and Maokai (excuse the pun).

Or, I can write a economic-political thriller about how Gragas supports Ashe because of his Graggy Ice brewery in the Avarosan Plains and Sejuani's attempts to sabotage the business.

It doesn't mean anything if it doesn't come from Riot's lore department.

I'm not asking for fan fiction, sir. If I wanted that, I'd be there already. I'm asking for new and interesting official lore from the company whose overall story drew me into their game in the first place. If Riot isn't willing to continue their own efforts in moving forward with their overall story, what good will a fanfic do for fans hungry for more?

And, to be fair to us, why isn't anyone involved in the Lore team, if it exists at all these days, involved in any of the discussions here or in the Lore Discussion sub forum? Is the company so covertly hostile to their own Lore that they don't want to even acknowledge it exists?

Is there anyone on this supposed "badass team in charge of the real stuff" working on the real stuff anymore? Has the entirety of League Lore been put on the shelf along with the other projects that get teased, put away and never touched again?

No one I know from Riot will even give a "yes or no" answer when asked if a Lore department even exists within the company anymore. The silence is truly deafening and I get the feeling that Riot doesn't care about its own lore at this point.

RiotOldManYellingAug 8, 20146 votes

Everything you said about fanfic is on point, we just seem to disagree about the fun in that. As for the existence of our lore department, we just ran a Q&A a few days ago with members of the creative team. Opeli was just on the boards answering questions here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay/GmiidgVy-gnar-qa-creative-completed. So I don't think it's fair to say that "no one from Riot will even give a 'yes or no' answer when asked if a Lore department even exists within the company anymore."

HellioningAug 8, 20149 votes

That is the only time I can recall seeing a lore member on the boards for about a year, which is when I can last remember Kitae posting.

TerraRisingAug 8, 201413 votes

Look at it from my perspective:

• Months worth of threads at the Lore Discussion sub forum get no replies from anyone at Riot. • Tweets to various people at Riot, including Tryndamere and Morello, go unanswered. A simple "yes" or "no" would have been enough. • Emails and private messages to Riot employees generate nothing better than an "I dunno" response.
• Morello posts that the former figurehead of the lore, Kitae, doesn't work in that department anymore. • Even Opeli, who was the only person answering lore and story questions on the AMA, as the title of "Narrative Designer" instead of anything that remotely sounds like "Lore." • Riot's Narrative Lead, Tom Abernathy, doesn't seem to exist after his whole "Plot doesn't matter" PR boo-boo.

What conclusions am I supposed to draw? Riot lost the privilege to count on my faith in them ages ago.

ImpetualAug 8, 20146 votes

In the opening post of this thread, I tried to make it clear that I was talking about the Lore of Runeterra... In other words, lore that isn't centered around any specific champion, but rather the world that those champions reside in.

That is the area that Riot has shown that they can excel in, but for some reason, have decided to neglect for the last few years.

BTW, don't mention the Freljiord event as a counter point, it didn't develop anything, it just changed the past and buffed up some backstory. It didn't change anything.

Giving us new lore about a new champion isn't what this is about.

This is about hearing how things are changing in Runeterra (in respect the passage of time).

It feels like the lore department doesn't exist anymore, because they haven't provided that since the JoJ. All we seem to get these days is new backstory on new champions that Riot is trying to sell us.

PryotraAug 7, 201410 votes

A lot of the reason why we're so "Hush Hush" is that we have so much going on at once, and the last thing we want to do is to tell you about a work in progress, only to have it get cancelled or changed, and then crush your expectations (because... lets face it... we've done that in the past).

I get that you guys got bit with Magma Chamber, but let me ask you a simple question. How long do we have to wait until Riot stops being afraid of talking to us?

Because this is the conclusion I've drawn from this. I figure that you guys probably still have cool things, but the dialogue kinda ended YEARS ago, and for alot of us that was what set your company apart. That you guys weren't afraid to face a public and talk instead of hiding behind the usual "NDA prevents me from saying anything to spoil the hype" line we get from literally every other company.

I'm pretty patient, as you might have picked up. I did wait about 2 years before I started ritualistically chanting Heimer's name to get some momentum on his rework, and after all the long years of silence, I'm still waiting. I just want to know how much longer do I have to wait to talk to you guys again.

CuixAug 7, 20148 votes

because... lets face it... we've done that in the past

This again? No. Nonononono. There have been two kinds of problems in the past:

"We promise we will do X!" 2 years later, no X and no word on the progress of X. Ex: Stealth Rework.
"We promise we will do X!" Some time later, a different thing is done. Ex: Trundle.

In both instances, the problem isn't that you tell us about a work in progress. It has nothing to do with reasonable changes during ongoing projects. It's the (absolutely baffling) choice to not ever actually commit to real honesty and transparency, or the (at this point deeply troubling) inability to do so successfully.

You already have a problem here. Expectations have already been crushed. It has nothing to do with "we might want to change things"; it's the choice to put everything in a basement with locked doors and no windows then expecting us to trust that it'll be hunky dory. Sometimes it is and folks are happy (Master Yi), sometimes it isn't and there's literally nothing we can do despite the fresh blob of displeasure (Karma).

ImpetualAug 7, 20146 votes

The problem is that Riot has shown us in the past that it can produce quality lore updates in a short time frame (see Journal of Justice). One would think that if the quantity if of lore given to the players decreased then we could at least expect an increase in the quality of the lore.

This does not feel like it is the case.

Recently the lore of the new champions introduced to the league of legends feels shoddy and forced. Despite the quantity of lore we receive decreasing, we also are experiencing a quality decrease.

Despite the decrease in quantity, we have also experienced a huge decrease in quality!

In terms of League of Legends/ The Institute of Justice, why is this the case Riot?

ImpetualAug 8, 20147 votes

Riot needs to deliver every so often if it want us to have faith in it as a company. In terms of lore.... it is years overdue.

(the Freljord patch didn't really count as lore. it was 1 new champ plus some retcons. Nothing about Runeterra actually changed. No one won the the battle. Things just kept going on as before.)

ImpetualAug 8, 20146 votes

Could you please get someone in the Lore department to comment on the direction that Riot plans to take Lore?

If Riot as a company, never plans to support lore to the extent that it used to, could you tell us up front?

Get someone from the lore department to tell us Riot's plan describing how they are going to try to deliver lore to us in the future. Some of us are still hoping that Riot will return to its roots, and if you as a company don't don't plan to, it would be nice to know sooner than later.

Tell us the plan for lore. it doesn't need to be detailed, just tell us what in an abstract sense what you plan to do. Because seriously, if Riot doesn't at least have a concrete plan (after years of little to no content) on how they are going to deliver lore to it's players, they are in trouble.

KingOfCannibalsAug 6, 20146 votes

I love the champ lore you give out. However the ultimate flaw recently for me is that you are giving no reason for new champs to join the league of legends. Gnar for example, we know he's a caveyordel who was frozen in true ice and in his lore Rengar hunts him because he's a new animal to hunt. But why does he join the league? Why would a caveyordel care about the politics of the league? (For those who don't know the reason we fight in league is so runeterra doesn't have wars... I think...) Also I how is he supposed to have figured out what league is? He doesn't speak any known language. But that's just Gnar, what about Yasuo? He's an exile on the run so what does he do? He joins league where the champions are like rock stars where everyone know where they are. That seems like a poor hiding place for someone being hunted...

Sneak DogAug 6, 20142 votes

Gnar may have just been taken in out of empathy/curiosity.

Yasuo probably joined to make use of the extensive knowledge base to find to find the real murderer, the other windblade and cleanse his own name.

ImpetualAug 7, 20145 votes

Would be nice for Riot to make his reason for joining cannon.